Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Fist of the Empire vs the Confederacy

[Aurbere]

Are we sure that the F9's don't have a particle shield? It would make sense, as it is a transports that is all terrain. It would need to be protected from physical things.

 

They can be destroyed by missiles in FOC.

[Aurbere]

It would actually benefit the CIC if your fleet attacked Nar Shaddaa. Not only would your fleet be forced to fight against the army of spacer that would be rallied to protect the planet, but it would allow my fleet to drop onto yours and combat. This would cut your forces off from escape and force you into a pincer.

 

Your fleet would lose.

 

You don't understand at all. They aren't attacking. They are moving to the edge of the system. It's a delay tactic and eventual trap. They aren't attacking anything, they are just letting Black Sun think they are attacking something.

 

And how are they getting your walkers up on the plateau? And your other forces? These are cliffs. And my forces will be there for before yours.

 

No, you will be force to get to the palace the long way. And as I said before, Veers will die. He was paralyzed for attempting this at Hoth. Sitting in his walker, he will be obliterated by mass dirver cannons.

 

There are roads on the map you linked. They'll use those.

 

And Veers has survived many, many missions before. I guess that one time an out-of-control ship crashes into his walker means that he'll get insta-killed.

 

And how do they know which one he's in? Pirate intuition?

 

Because stealth field generators. Because the droids will not be seen. Smugglers, pirates and citizens will be. But droids? No.

 

And jammers are via Chalmuns. Via all the other places you have ignored.

 

And what source states they actually have these things.

 

I don't get this. Seriously, just because they sell things doesn't mean they sell jammers.

 

And Imperial Intelligence will have to fly from Kaas. Time travel, remember? And jammers my friend. jammers.

 

And you really do underestimate Guri, don't you? Like, really badly. Guards? You mean the ceremonial ones, right? And B1's. Yeah, you got me. The most deadly droid in the galaxy will be killed by B1's.

 

Imperial Intelligence is everywhere. As rule 35 notes:

 

#35 The organisation is capable of operating, and has access to all its assets outside the scope of its base of operations. Its abilities are not limited in anyway – only its abilities to provide your faction with physical units which can only be provided in small quantities.

 

They won't have to go very far. Certainly not as far as Guri will have to go.

 

And, no, no jammers. You really haven't proved that they'll get jammers. You basically said that Tatooine is connected to the underworld, so they have jammers.

 

You really think the Trade Federation only made B1s? That's, well, that's sad. They provided very powerful security droids such as the Baron Droids and the Droideka.

[Canino]

Veers will not position his forces in a place that will leave them vulnerable like that. He will take the high ground and make sure his forces won't be ambushed in such a manner. You seem to forget that he's one of the finest ground commanders of his time.

 

No offense, but some of these counters made me laugh too. Like this one. Veers will not be able to take the high ground. The CIC will already be there.

 

No offense, but you can't look at this map, can you? The Palace is on high ground. The plateau will be secured by the CIC far before Veers even assembles his troops. The distance is shorter from the palace.

 

Veers, while a great tactician, can do nothing about this. The CIC controls the high ground. End of discussion.

 

Right, because those cowards won't have, I don't know, guards protecting them. How about an army of E4 Baron Droids, one of the finest security units of its era? Or Droidekas? Or a ton of B1s? Did you forget the Neimoidians, too?

 

You can't expect me to believe that a bunch of pirates will defeat a large force of units designed to kill them. I don't think anyone would believe that.

 

Also, you seem to keep forgetting that the Trade Federation is not the only way to infect troops. Imperial Intelligence has done this before, and will do so here.

 

Aurbere. Guri has successfully killed the heads of any entire corporation before. She has handily beaten Luke, and done this and, this. She is a master of infiltration, and armed with a stealth belt, will completely wreck any guards. These guys? Completely ceremonial, IIRC.

 

And I didn't forget. But I know if the Trade Federation is taken over, then they will be able to stop the hacking, either through a new transmission, or by using other tech. Hell, they could just say that Dooku called off the hacking.

 

You still have to get these jammers to Tatooine. And that means you have to get through the blockade, which is heavily armed with tractor beam projectors.

 

So you aren't letting anyone on the planet? That's a good way to get an fleet of spacers assembled.

 

And you seem to forget that Chalmun's has one pre-installed.

[Canino]

You don't understand at all. They aren't attacking. They are moving to the edge of the system. It's a delay tactic and eventual trap. They aren't attacking anything, they are just letting Black Sun think they are attacking something.

 

Ohh. How could I have been so silly to believe Black Sun, with its information base vastly superior to the SI's, would see through this? I must be really stupid to believe that Black Sun is capable of doing anything but smuggle, or cower in fear next to the infinity superior SI.

 

There are roads on the map you linked. They'll use those.

 

And Veers has survived many, many missions before. I guess that one time an out-of-control ship crashes into his walker means that he'll get insta-killed.

 

And how do they know which one he's in? Pirate intuition?

 

Those roads do not run on high ground. Close, but not on it. But my forces will be on it. And using roads makes it much easier to ambush, as they can predict exactly where your forces will be coming from.

 

No. I think he dies because he is an extremely brave man that puts himself into suicide positions very often. Mass drivers will obliterate your walkers, and Veers will be dead to. And they won't just target his. They destroy them all

 

And what source states they actually have these things.

 

I don't get this. Seriously, just because they sell things doesn't mean they sell jammers.

 

They may not. But they have the connections to get them. And they likely do, considering they are large black market dealers.

 

Imperial Intelligence is everywhere. As rule 35 notes:

 

#35 The organisation is capable of operating, and has access to all its assets outside the scope of its base of operations. Its abilities are not limited in anyway – only its abilities to provide your faction with physical units which can only be provided in small quantities.

 

They won't have to go very far. Certainly not as far as Guri will have to go.

 

And, no, no jammers. You really haven't proved that they'll get jammers. You basically said that Tatooine is connected to the underworld, so they have jammers.

 

You really think the Trade Federation only made B1s? That's, well, that's sad. They provided very powerful security droids such as the Baron Droids and the Droideka.

 

You need to know that his applies to me as well. And they will not have any assets on Tatooine. Aurbere, I've given you countless reasons why I would get jammers. Get over it, and find a way to combat them, instead of complaining that I will even have them. Do you want me to list my reasons?

 

• Nar Shaddaa, via blockade runners
  
• Any world within Black Sun, via blockade runners
  
• The countless black markets in Mos Eisley, via blockade runners, smugglers, and other means
  
• Chalmun's Cantina
  

 

I have given reasons. The CIC will have jammers. Now figure out a way to combat them.

[Canino]

They can be destroyed by missiles in FOC.

 

Ok then. But Hailfire droids will fall to droidekas and annihilator droids.

[Selenial]

Ok then. But Hailfire droids will fall to droidekas and annihilator droids.

 

Weve seen droidekas pummeled by rock before, they'd probably get destroyed if a Hallfire just decided to completely ram it....

[Canino]

I swear Nar Shadaa is a better fortress world than even Malachor.

 

Anyway, good luck Canino. I might actually try be more neutral than originally planned here, but I still want Aurbere to win

 

What happened to this, Sel? Being neutral?

[Selenial]

What happened to this, Sel? Being neutral?

 

Yehhhh, Beni ruined it.

 

Always blame Beni.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

Alright folks I'm signing off, tommorow I'll look over the recent arguments and make some responses on both sides.

 

Anyway, have fun and play nice!

[tausra]

Hailfire droids have a greater range than anything the Black Sun can put on the field. They fire missiles the same way droidekas fire their blasters, in very quick, very deadly volleys. The transport trick is cute, but would ultimately be ineffective as the artillery of the Fist will shred the transports as they hit sensor range. Another thing, it isn't hard to "lead" your target, especially with the advanced droid brains in use, so when the transports stealth, the wall of missiles will likely connect in some fashion.

 

Something that hasn't be discussed is the limitations of current stealth technology. You can visually hide somethign all you want, in the loose sand of the Dune Sea, the repulsors will almost certainly kick up sand and debris. The same is true of large sized, heavy artillery pieces using stealth generators, they will leave traces and marks in the sand as they move. The technology cannot hide this.

 

If the Fist fleet moves to Nar Shaddaa, I wouldn't expect anyone to want to hang out. The Black Sun may have the magical ability to create complete, unflinching loyalty, but most scum would rather run or hide than deal with something as impressive as the Fist fleet. Criminals don't go to war, they're not soldiers, they go to ground first. This isn't Die Hard, criminals don't go toe to toe with the military.

[Silenceo]

Hailfire droids have a greater range than anything the Black Sun can put on the field. They fire missiles the same way droidekas fire their blasters, in very quick, very deadly volleys. The transport trick is cute, but would ultimately be ineffective as the artillery of the Fist will shred the transports as they hit sensor range. Another thing, it isn't hard to "lead" your target, especially with the advanced droid brains in use, so when the transports stealth, the wall of missiles will likely connect in some fashion.

 

It is true that they can be equipped with an artillery load out, but the vast majority of these were the rocket variety, and nothing has been said other wise. Those rockets, while extremely deadly, do not example seem super duper accurate at long range. Every time that we have seen them, the missiles to twirl just a bit... In my book, twirling missiles does not accurate make. Granted, they can unload a lot of them all at once before being forced to restock. As for the transport, I had thought it was a bit higher off the ground, has something changed? I also have a pretty good hunch that the stealth-able transports have some tech on board that allows them to be undetected by long range sensors as well, otherwise kinda useless for stealth... If they really are stuck to being so low, that too can be an advantage with their capabilities since in the "Dune Sea" we see in the movies, it isn't exactly flat which likely blocks lots of line of sight shots from low altitude. High ground sniper shots ftw. That is another thing, how would the Hailfires REACH the AT-PT's? If they go turbo fast over the dunes, I half expect them to spin out, not nearly as flat as Geonosis not to mention the AT-PT's would be up on the cliffs firing. What that means is that there is likely only small passages to reach the most preferable sniping positions, which would be incredibly easy to set charges at for just such a scenario. Xizor and gang was never known for fighting fair.

 

Something that hasn't be discussed is the limitations of current stealth technology. You can visually hide somethign all you want, in the loose sand of the Dune Sea, the repulsors will almost certainly kick up sand and debris. The same is true of large sized, heavy artillery pieces using stealth generators, they will leave traces and marks in the sand as they move. The technology cannot hide this.

 

They will not leave traces if they are on the cliffs, as has been repeatedly stated to be where they will be firing from. As for the transports, I think it is good to note the fire arcs of the AT-ST/A and the Hailfires. Most specifically, the Hailfire would have issues with flanks. While it could turn to face its opponent, all of its weapons seem to have very little leeway in their arcs, unlike the AT-ST/A. And while the AT-ST/A is much better at being able to deal with flanking maneuvers, I kinda doubt their 360 sensors are able to detect stealthed vessels with extremely advanced stealth technology coming from out of sight, miles away. Scout transport or not, that is a bit of a stretch.

 

If the Fist fleet moves to Nar Shaddaa, I wouldn't expect anyone to want to hang out. The Black Sun may have the magical ability to create complete, unflinching loyalty, but most scum would rather run or hide than deal with something as impressive as the Fist fleet. Criminals don't go to war, they're not soldiers, they go to ground first. This isn't Die Hard, criminals don't go toe to toe with the military.

 

It has happened before, that is the difference. The last time the Galactic Empire tried to rough up Nar Shaddaa... Well... Let us just say the locals did some unsavory things to them with the aide of Han Solo... Not to mention this time they know they have the backing of Black freaking Sun! Need I remind you the "street cred" that organization has on Nar Shaddaa? Heck, the last time the GE attacked Nar Shaddaa to try base delta zero the moon, the Hutts on Hutta made a deal so they would live, and left the others to fend for themselves. Yet they still fought. I am pretty sure if a major group such as Black Sun decides to come to their aide, those smugglers, pirates, and bounty hunters will take up arms as well to defend their bases of operations. Do. Not. Invade. Nar Shaddaa. Bad things happen to fleets who try...

 

Another little thing I thought I would mention, why again wouldn't the AT-PT's snipe the Hailfires first since they obviously are the fastest unit and likely their biggest threat? Heck, I can see the opening volleys having them all pick a Hailfire and firing at the same time for maximum effect. Wouldn't take many of those to completely nullify the Hailfires numbers to near nothingness which then leaves the much slower AT-ST/A being shot by snipers. I am not saying some Hailfires won't get lucky and some how jump through all of the hoops to get to the AT-PT's, but using standard pirate tactics, I think they could hit and fade rather well.

 

Side Note: How well would the Annihilator's shield deal with an AT-PT mass driver round?

Edited September 5, 2014 by Silenceo

[Wolfninjajedi]

Sil....AT-APs, AT-APs, AT-APs! Not AT-PTs. Edited September 5, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[tausra]

Nar Shaddaa: There are no other major factions on the planet, as per the Kaggath rules. No gangs, groups or other major affiliations, because they could be construed as additional factions. So, the moon is all unaffiliated pirates, surrounded by the indomitable fleet. I see no way that the loose criminals and thugs are going to mount an offense against the coordination of the Fist.

 

You also seem to be underestimate the capabilities of the Hailfire.

each missile rack carrying 15 guided rocket warheads powerful enough to cause significant damage to enemy targets

Each Hailfire-class droid tank also had a retractable double blaster for use against infantry and other "soft" targets.[3] The Hailfire-class also had many different configurations that boasted various types of weapons. Some of the configurations included heavy blaster artillery, ion cannons, or anti-personnel stun weapon batteries.

 

Guided warheads and alternate equipment. The Hailfire can be reloaded on the fly and adjust the situation rather quickly, provided supplies are brought along.

 

Guided warheads negate the height advantage, as described here:

When fired, the missiles tended to "fishtail" as they tracked the target, but unless the target vessel happened to be faster or more maneuverable, or had some sort of defense against missiles, such as flares or aft or turreted weapons, a miss was rare.

 

The Hailfire was a mobile platform of high speed, high explosive death.

[Aurbere]

No offense, but some of these counters made me laugh too. Like this one. Veers will not be able to take the high ground. The CIC will already be there.

 

No offense, but you can't look at this map, can you? The Palace is on high ground. The plateau will be secured by the CIC far before Veers even assembles his troops. The distance is shorter from the palace.

 

Veers, while a great tactician, can do nothing about this. The CIC controls the high ground. End of discussion.

 

Slauce Canyon is well-used route to Mos Eisley Valley via high-ground."

 

Nowhere near your forces. But, tell me, how do you intend to get forces on to that plateau? Jabba's Palace isn't on it, and I see no expressway. :/

 

Aurbere. Guri has successfully killed the heads of any entire corporation before. She has handily beaten Luke, and done this and, this. She is a master of infiltration, and armed with a stealth belt, will completely wreck any guards. These guys? Completely ceremonial, IIRC.

 

And I didn't forget. But I know if the Trade Federation is taken over, then they will be able to stop the hacking, either through a new transmission, or by using other tech. Hell, they could just say that Dooku called off the hacking.

 

Right, has she defeated a virtual army single-handedly. Because that's what she'll have to deal with. You can't call them cowards, and then say they won't defend themselves.

 

There isn't a transmission. Beni's outright dismissed that idea.

 

So you aren't letting anyone on the planet? That's a good way to get an fleet of spacers assembled.

 

And you seem to forget that Chalmun's has one pre-installed.

 

Beni said you can't assemble fleets or armies from your organization.

 

That is one jammer that only protected the cantina. It is an indication of nothing.

[Aurbere]

Ohh. How could I have been so silly to believe Black Sun, with its information base vastly superior to the SI's, would see through this? I must be really stupid to believe that Black Sun is capable of doing anything but smuggle, or cower in fear next to the infinity superior SI.

 

So Timmy Tight-Lips is just floating around in space, huh?

 

Seriously though, how're they suppose to know? It's not like they have guys out in the middle of space doing nothing.

 

Those roads do not run on high ground. Close, but not on it. But my forces will be on it. And using roads makes it much easier to ambush, as they can predict exactly where your forces will be coming from.

 

No. I think he dies because he is an extremely brave man that puts himself into suicide positions very often. Mass drivers will obliterate your walkers, and Veers will be dead to. And they won't just target his. They destroy them all

 

As I noted before, there is a road that goes to the high ground. They will take it because Veers won't put himself in such a vulnerable position. And you still haven't explained where those AT-APs will be setting up. I see no way up on to that plateau.

 

They may not. But they have the connections to get them. And they likely do, considering they are large black market dealers.

 

 

 

You need to know that his applies to me as well. And they will not have any assets on Tatooine. Aurbere, I've given you countless reasons why I would get jammers. Get over it, and find a way to combat them, instead of complaining that I will even have them. Do you want me to list my reasons?

 

• Nar Shaddaa, via blockade runners
  
• Any world within Black Sun, via blockade runners
  
• The countless black markets in Mos Eisley, via blockade runners, smugglers, and other means
  
• Chalmun's Cantina
  

 

I have given reasons. The CIC will have jammers. Now figure out a way to combat them.

 

You said that because they have connections to the Black Market, that automatically means that they have that tech on the planet. I find this unlikely. Tatooine is a backwater world, I find it unlikely to be rich in technology.

 

But, fine, have your jammers. We'll just say they have them 'because pirates.' That seems to be the only real argument for it anyway.

 

Anyway, how are you getting these jammers into Mos Eisley? You do realize that you can pinpoint the locations of jammers, right?

Edited September 5, 2014 by Aurbere

[Aurbere]

Side Note: How well would the Annihilator's shield deal with an AT-PT mass driver round?

 

It has a particle shield and required unacceptable numbers of heavy units to kill. In other words, very well.

[Aurbere]

Here's a question. Where's Guri getting this stealth belt she supposedly has? I'm looking on the Black Sun and Black Market pages and I can't find any examples of stealth belts being used by them. Sure Urai had one, but that's Urai, not Black Sun or the Black Market.

 

Could someone clue me in, please?

 

Edit: And concerning Guri, has Canino realized that traveling to Cato Neimoidia from Tatooine would take a long time? The battle could be over by the time she gets there.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Aurbere

[Wolfninjajedi]

So uh....after researching the Annihilator droids. In this context for battle and the numbers, sorry Canino but they could nearly solo your entire ground force. Edited September 5, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Silenceo]

Sil....AT-APs, AT-APs, AT-APs! Not AT-PTs.

 

Blast it, I had the image of an AT-AP in my head, why did I keep saying PT? Curse all of the small name differences for all of the republic walkers!!!

 

Side Note: We haven't used the 'cus Pirates!' excuse in a while Aurbere, these recent ones have plenty of information backing them up. Though, if you want us to use "Pirates!" I can jokingly oblige.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Silenceo

[tausra]

So uh....after researching the Annihilator droids. In this context for battle and the numbers, sorry Canino but they could nearly solo your entire ground force.

 

That's kind of what we've been arguing.

[Wolfninjajedi]

That's kind of what we've been arguing.

 

Oh...well then I guess I haven't been following really well lol.

[Aurbere]

Side Note: We haven't used the 'cus Pirates!' excuse in a while Aurbere, these recent ones have plenty of information backing them up. Though, if you want us to use "Pirates!" I can jokingly oblige.

 

I'm joking with it, lol.

[Beniboybling]

Tricking the Black Sun: Again with an information network surpassing that of Imperial Intelligence, as well as a web of informants across various hyperlanes, both major and not, I see it as unlikely that the Confederacy will be fooled by a fake attack, if the fleet is not already being tracked, it will not be difficult to locate, or rather it will, proving it to be a ruse.

 

Sabotaging Reinforcements: A good tactic, but consider that no reinforcements will be forthcoming unless the blockade is broken, I raise this point because the Fist might decide to "let" the Confederacy land troops to spring the trap, but this tactic could end up back firing, as they will end up smuggling in a host of illegal tech as well to give them a powerful edge.

 

Marching on the High Ground: I have to agree with Canino here, pulling the tactican card is all well and good but the fact is that high ground will be littered with defenses, as it practically encapsulates the palace. No amount of amazing tactical ability will get Fist troops there before the enemy, certainly not in these conditions. He'll likely have to employ another strategy, but attempting to rush the fortified high ground, for a tactician of his caliber, would not be one of them.

 

I suggest a close study of the map, to get an idea of how this might play out. Note that there is a lot of high ground surrounding the Palace, which will mean a lot of marching to avoid transports getting shot down when in range.

 

Tractor Beams: I believe Aurbere has a point here Canino, tractor beams could bring your supply chain to a juddering halt, no amount of fancy flying will be able to overcome that obstacle. I think that in order to get any kind of item, including jammers, onto the planet's surface. Will require that the fleet is somehow distracted or ousted from Tatooine.

 

Battle of Nar Shaddaa: People seem to forget that the spacers were allowed to win this battle, I don't think we can use this as proof to say that spacers > all, because they don't, the Fist's fleet would trash them lets be real.

[Aurbere]

I'm going to throw some new/refreshed topics out for discussion.

 

First, production. I don't see the CCN producing many units for this battle. What we have to remember is that the units that the CIC is using are top of the line units that are difficult to produce. You aren't going to make 50,000 Cortosis droids or anything like that. They aren't easy to make. It will take several days to make a batch of them. That isn't even including the other droids they have to make. Sorry to say, but the Nest isn't going to make massive hordes of battle droids, certainly not in the time that this battle will take place in.

 

Next, Imperial Intelligence. I did some looking around and found something interesting.

 

The agents of Intelligence were very adept at gathering information, having spies and operatives on nearly every Republic and non-Imperial world, even Tython and Coruscant, that the Jedi or the SIS were not aware.

-Wookieepedia

 

Imperial Intelligence has a long arm, and I have no doubt that, if they aren't on Hypori, they're close enough to get there quickly. Certainly quicker than Guri traveling from the Outer Rim to the Core.

[Beniboybling]

So uh....after researching the Annihilator droids. In this context for battle and the numbers, sorry Canino but they could nearly solo your entire ground force.

They are extremely powerful, but if dedicated to a single front the Confederacy will respond in kind and dispatch its entire force to attack Tatooine through the tunnels.

 

And as they are only four of them, its feasible that strategies can be put into play to pick them off.