Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Fist of the Empire vs the Confederacy

[Wolfninjajedi]

Speaking of Durge, I noticed that bit about him with some posts saying Ventress would beat him. Yeah...no that ain't gonna happen, she has no real way to put him down. The only way she could ever win against him is via BFR and this depends on the battlefield location of where they are, otherwise he'll just regenerate with whatever damage that he has taken. Now if you're talking about incapacitation, then yeah...she could do that but that is only a temp solution.

 

Even then considering this isn't a battle a BFR won't really cut it either, unless it's into a star or somewhere where he'll disintergrate to nothing.

[Beniboybling]

Speaking of Durge, I noticed that bit about him with some posts saying Ventress would beat him. Yeah...no that ain't gonna happen, she has no real way to put him down. The only way she could ever win against him is via BFR and this depends on the battlefield location of where they are, otherwise he'll just regenerate with whatever damage that he has taken. Now if you're talking about incapacitation, then yeah...she could do that but that is only a temp solution.

 

Even then considering this isn't a battle a BFR won't really cut it either, unless it's into a star or somewhere where he'll disintergrate to nothing.

I agree, I think Durge + Guri + Urai Fen + Jedi Killer Droids could prove a serious threat to any assassination attempt mounted by Ventress and Sith support, which I suggest we discuss as well.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Also Beni question....who the hell is piloting the ground vehicles?

[Beniboybling]

Also Beni question....who the hell is piloting the ground vehicles?

A good question, probably best to operate in a similar way to who mans naval ships i.e. whoever did for the designated ground force. So for the Fist it would be Imperial Soldiers, but for the Confederacy we are likely dealing with B1 units.

[Wolfninjajedi]

A good question, probably best to operate in a similar way to who mans naval ships i.e. whoever did for the designated ground force. So for the Fist it would be Imperial Soldiers, but for the Confederacy we are likely dealing with B1 units.

 

Is this going to deduct any units? Also why B1s? Why not just Black Sun pirates?

 

Although an even bigger question, do the units get a deduction for not being familiar with piloting/operating said vehicles properly?

[Beniboybling]

Is this going to deduct any units? Also why B1s? Why not just Black Sun pirates?

 

Although an even bigger question, do the units get a deduction for not being familiar with piloting/operating said vehicles properly?

I think it would be fair not to.

 

B1s would be the "default" choice but its feasible to say that the Confederacy might decide to use pirates instead.

 

Like with naval vessels, they'd now how to use the ships, of course experience is another matter.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I think it would be fair not to.

 

B1s would be the "default" choice but its feasible to say that the Confederacy might decide to use pirates instead.

 

Like with naval vessels, they'd now how to use the ships, of course experience is another matter.

 

Aww...that could have been another factor to throw in. Though yeah, could get onboard with the experience thing.

[Aurbere]

Sorry I've been really busy lately, but I'm trying to get caught up now while I have some free time.

[Aurbere]

1. Well that's the point, this information doesn't benefit the soldiers in anyway, all they are now aware is that their enemies are bristling weapons platforms and their is nothing they can do to harm them.

 

Not exactly a cry to rally around.

 

2. Correct, but they only ever seemed to use one, and don't look as powerful.

 

3. Well such a precise cut would require someone of impressive talent to be capable of performing it on multiple droids in rapid succession without being wounded or killed. It is unlikely that all of them will succeed in destroying more than a dozen when being attacked from all angles by Droidekas and Commandos as well as CB3s.

 

4. Hard I would think when under suppressive fire, or all Droidekas would be neutralized in such a way. I can only recall this tactic being used twice, and that was by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Mace Windu before they came under fire.

 

5. What I meant by that is not concentrating their force all in one place. The Confederacy will likely attack through a series of multiple ambushes all of equal strength and on many different fronts. As such there won't be any one main front that the Annihilator can be sent to, nor can it be in several places at once.

 

6. Well if the whole thing is guarded by droids, one would think avoiding detection would be impossible.

 

7. But the CIC troops aren't just going to accept communications from anyone. Certainly not the enemy. Else early on during the Clone Wars the Republic would have merely developed and transmitted a shut down signal to the entire droid army. My thoughts are that they would have hack into the central droid computer, which all of the droids if need be can be disconnected from and operate independently of. So I do think this tactic is exaggerated somewhat.

 

1. You're missing the point. The Fist army on the whole knows the weaknesses of their enemy. Whether you believe it or not, that's something of a morale boost. Sure, they know the enemy troops are basically weapons platforms, but they also know that those soldiers aren't unbeatable. Without that knowledge, the troops would be at a disadvantage as far as morale goes, because they won't know that those troops can be beaten.

 

Get what I mean?

 

2. Point, I suppose. But I would like to bring up the targeting weaknesses of the SBDs again. At best, they simply walk forward and shoot. When an enemy leaves their line of sight, they look for a new target or just keep shooting. Theoretically, it's possible that they may lock on to a target in their LOS and keep trying to take them down, ignoring all else in their way. I'm not sure if that's true, I would have to check, but that is just a theory unless I can find something on it.

 

As Obi-Wan Kenobi said, "droids aren't known for their brains." And "If droids could think, there'd be none of us would there?" (That's paraphrased)

 

Basically, the C-B3s aren't smart, and that subtle targeting weakness is enough for the numerically superior Fist soldiers to outflank and outmaneuver them.

 

3. Well, the point is that they have an advantage. They can deflect their fire and hit them with Force Abilities to close the gap. If the C-B3s get knocked down, then it would be easier to take them out.

 

4. Well, that's true. However, I think it would be foolish to believe that the battle-hardened Sith Warriors would just stand there deflecting fire ineffectually. If their only option is to use the Force, then I think it's logical to assume that they would. You can't expect a Force user to not use the Force.

 

5. True, but a single annihilator can provide some strong cover for soldiers and take out well over a hundred enemy units on its own. Most ambushes would fail when the Annihilator enters the field, and that's not even counting the numerous vehicles that the Fist will deploy.

 

6. Actually, droid factories have been infiltrated many times. As I said before, Republic spies were able to do it, Anakin did it, Obi-Wan did it, Tholme did it (not a droid factory, but a guarded compound nonetheless), and so on. Asajj is an expert infiltration unit, and the Intelligence operatives are trained for it.

 

The best detection units they have is Commando Droids, but even Commando Droids can be avoided or stealth-killed. See Son of Dathomir Issue #1.

 

7. I checked the relevant sources, but they didn't tell me anything else about it, so this will be mainly supposition.

 

It is apparent that the Republic simply didn't have the proper technology to send that kind of transmission and/or Palpatine stopped them. The Separatists did, obviously. It was revealed that the Separatists transmitted madware to droids across the Republic, likely hijacking the holonet or some other means of communication. It's most likely similar to how HK-01 did it. And if it could do it, why can't the significantly more advanced company with a clear specialization in powerful transmission technology be able to do it?

 

You can't say that they only attacked fresh factory models because an 'reportedly' (I say 'reportedly' because that was the story the Jedi told the guards to get the droid past security IIRC) old droid had to go through the Republic's scanner tech to clear it.

 

I still can't see how this is being doubted. In my first post I laid out that the Fist has the means, motive, and opportunity to do this.

[Beniboybling]

1. You're missing the point. The Fist army on the whole knows the weaknesses of their enemy. Whether you believe it or not, that's something of a morale boost. Sure, they know the enemy troops are basically weapons platforms, but they also know that those soldiers aren't unbeatable. Without that knowledge, the troops would be at a disadvantage as far as morale goes, because they won't know that those troops can be beaten.

 

Get what I mean?

 

2. Point, I suppose. But I would like to bring up the targeting weaknesses of the SBDs again. At best, they simply walk forward and shoot. When an enemy leaves their line of sight, they look for a new target or just keep shooting. Theoretically, it's possible that they may lock on to a target in their LOS and keep trying to take them down, ignoring all else in their way. I'm not sure if that's true, I would have to check, but that is just a theory unless I can find something on it.

 

As Obi-Wan Kenobi said, "droids aren't known for their brains." And "If droids could think, there'd be none of us would there?" (That's paraphrased)

 

Basically, the C-B3s aren't smart, and that subtle targeting weakness is enough for the numerically superior Fist soldiers to outflank and outmaneuver them.

 

3. Well, the point is that they have an advantage. They can deflect their fire and hit them with Force Abilities to close the gap. If the C-B3s get knocked down, then it would be easier to take them out.

 

4. Well, that's true. However, I think it would be foolish to believe that the battle-hardened Sith Warriors would just stand there deflecting fire ineffectually. If their only option is to use the Force, then I think it's logical to assume that they would. You can't expect a Force user to not use the Force.

 

5. True, but a single annihilator can provide some strong cover for soldiers and take out well over a hundred enemy units on its own. Most ambushes would fail when the Annihilator enters the field, and that's not even counting the numerous vehicles that the Fist will deploy.

 

6. Actually, droid factories have been infiltrated many times. As I said before, Republic spies were able to do it, Anakin did it, Obi-Wan did it, Tholme did it (not a droid factory, but a guarded compound nonetheless), and so on. Asajj is an expert infiltration unit, and the Intelligence operatives are trained for it.

 

The best detection units they have is Commando Droids, but even Commando Droids can be avoided or stealth-killed. See Son of Dathomir Issue #1.

 

7. I checked the relevant sources, but they didn't tell me anything else about it, so this will be mainly supposition.

 

It is apparent that the Republic simply didn't have the proper technology to send that kind of transmission and/or Palpatine stopped them. The Separatists did, obviously. It was revealed that the Separatists transmitted madware to droids across the Republic, likely hijacking the holonet or some other means of communication. It's most likely similar to how HK-01 did it. And if it could do it, why can't the significantly more advanced company with a clear specialization in powerful transmission technology be able to do it?

 

You can't say that they only attacked fresh factory models because an 'reportedly' (I say 'reportedly' because that was the story the Jedi told the guards to get the droid past security IIRC) old droid had to go through the Republic's scanner tech to clear it.

 

I still can't see how this is being doubted. In my first post I laid out that the Fist has the means, motive, and opportunity to do this.

1. I'm not sure, but its a minor point in comparison to what weaknesses they will actually exploit.

 

2. That only applied when they were disconnected from a Central Droid Computer, that would not be the case here.

 

However I agree, without the advantage of numbers it will be much easier to isolate and trap them.

 

3. True but it is an advantage we should not exaggerate, the CB3s remain a considerable threat to them.

 

4. I think we shouldn't take Force-based attacks in-situ for granted. When your deflecting fire from a Droideka armed with 9 separate cannons all firing plasma bolts that move (if I recall) faster than bullets you need to be of exceptional skill to be able to perform a Force push while still effectively deflecting that energy.

 

Indeed there are many occasions in which Force Users have failed to do this, for example in their very first appearance, Kenobi and Qui-Gon they are forced to flee, and they only had a fraction of the Mark II's armament.

 

Heck to be quite honest, I'd question whether they can withstand such an attack regardless.

 

5. Well Tausra made the point that if they spearhead a single offensive on the Confederacy's base they will have no choice but to divert troops. Or something to that effect. So there is that.

 

6. I was referring to the tunnels, but good points!

 

7. Think about how malware works though, it doesn't intercept your broadband and plonk it through your WiFi, I don't really think its possible to intercept tramissions for anything other than the purpose of reading the data, you can't piggyback information on to it, for that you need a an established link between two devices, that is my point here.

 

And that is how malware works, it tricks you into downloading it, it doesn't just appear. No doubt these viruses were implanted in some form of data that the CIS knew would end up being transmitted to droids. But simply broadcasting a frequency would not work if no droid picked it up, which again they would have no sensible reason to.

 

And as battle droids, they are far less integrated into galactic communications as an astromech would be. Much like in the real world it would be far easier to download malware into a laptop than it would a military computer. Military computers don't have Facebook accounts and don't download videos from Pirate Bay.

 

I doubt it because its jumping to conclusions, using ignorance of how things work to justify its validity. Simply because "we have the technology" doesn't mean they can do anything that comes under the umbrella of communications.

 

Heck we don't even have examples of military grade droids being hacked in such a manner at all. Only commercial models, models that are connected to the HoloNet, very easy to access and lack much in the way of security.

 

Sorry for the ramble, but my thoughts are that they will need to access some kind of device capable of transmitting information to the droids that the droids will willingly accept. And as military models that is restricted to the droid computer from which they receive orders. And maybe just maybe other communications through standard frequencies, but I say maybe because I doubt they will be of the write capacity of kind to transmit a virus through.

 

In the same way that you couldn't get malware video call.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Just gonna point something out here, the nameless SW that we see...really just don't go for Force Powers, they seem strictly to get up close and personal with the enemy. The Cortosis Battle Droids are deadly, they were able to lay waste to the entire undercity of Courscant and also invade the Jedi Temple and they proved very successful against the Jedi.

 

Now this isn't to say SW can't use Force Powers, but I don't think it's something they would go for right off the bat. They seemed to focus on being lightsaber fighters, than force users.

 

The CBD's armor can withstand lightsaber strikes, blaster fire from Sith Troopers really won't do **** to them, heck the Super 2 Battle Droids are also blaster resistant. So they are gonna be hard pressed in fighting these things, even if they have the knowledge about them. Knowledge is great and all, but it isn't the end all be all thing.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[tausra]

In terms of their own combat training, Sith Warriors utilize bold lightsaber combat tactics and sudden bursts of Force powers, designed to force opponents onto the defensive before killing them. Considered unrivaled lightsaber duelists, Warriors utilize combat forms geared towards brute force, hammering their foes into submission with strong, crushing blows. Though their lightsaber is their prime method of attack, Sith Warriors do not neglect their skills in other areas of the Force, using it to paralyze, terrify, and kill.

 

They used the force to surprise or disorient their target before going in for the kill.

[Wolfninjajedi]

They used the force to surprise or disorient their target before going in for the kill.

 

They really didn't seem to do that against the Jedi in the Deceived trailer, nor against the Republic Troopers in the Hope one. They really just ran at them all.

 

Also I did a thing... **** YO FANCY MOVES!

 

Although again, while they can possibly use force powers. It's not something I see them doing for majority, they seem to be mostly lightsaber duelists more than anything which is what the quote is saying too, that's their prime method of attack.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Canino]

Where to start? I guess the question is, would you guys prefer me to compile everything in one or two large posts, using spoilers to separate arguments, or simply triple/quadruple/quintuple post?

 

And when I do so, I'll need time, as I have a decent amount of work to get done today.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Where to start? I guess the question is, would you guys prefer me to compile everything in one or two large posts, using spoilers to separate arguments, or simply triple/quadruple/quintuple post?

 

And when I do so, I'll need time, as I have a decent amount of work to get done today.

 

The former seems easier to keep track of.

[Canino]

The former seems easier to keep track of.

 

I agree. Alright, I'll start that up, and I'll try to post it later today. I'm going to work until lunch, eat, and then I'll compile my post.

[Beniboybling]

I agree. Alright, I'll start that up, and I'll try to post it later today. I'm going to work until lunch, eat, and then I'll compile my post.

[Canino]

 

Sorry, I was swamped with work yesterday. I'm working on it now. However, I would like to make one little argument now. Jammers.

 

My faction is going to come with jammers on likely anything that can hold them. They would be placed in the Palace, and on vehicles that could attach them. This is a very large advantage for the CIC. Why? Communication.

 

Pirates know how important communication is in battle. They utilize them to capture vessels, and divide and conquer. Jammers would be smuggled into Mos Eisley, the Palace, transports, and even capital ships. This would nullify any communication between any of the Fist's forces. It would also prevent any transmissions from reaching Intelligence or any viruses from reaching the front lines.

 

Not only that, but it would cut off the Fist's communictaion with the Trade Federation and Kilran. This opens up the opportunity for Guri to capture the heads of the Federation, and for raids in space to be more effective.

[Beniboybling]

Sorry, I was swamped with work yesterday. I'm working on it now. However, I would like to make one little argument now. Jammers.

 

My faction is going to come with jammers on likely anything that can hold them. They would be placed in the Palace, and on vehicles that could attach them. This is a very large advantage for the CIC. Why? Communication.

 

Pirates know how important communication is in battle. They utilize them to capture vessels, and divide and conquer. Jammers would be smuggled into Mos Eisley, the Palace, transports, and even capital ships. This would nullify any communication between any of the Fist's forces. It would also prevent any transmissions from reaching Intelligence or any viruses from reaching the front lines.

 

Not only that, but it would cut off the Fist's communictaion with the Trade Federation and Kilran. This opens up the opportunity for Guri to capture the heads of the Federation, and for raids in space to be more effective.

No worries, I'm just being a bully.

 

My thoughts would be that Sith Intelligence can develop means of overcoming jamming technology with superior communications to break through whatever blockades the Confederacy may try to attempt.

 

However I'd also think that such a method would be expensive and impractical to apply to the battlefield itself, and it that sense divide and conquer could well prove an effective tactic, if the Confederacy can force the Fist to spread out.

[Wolfninjajedi]

No worries, I'm just being a bully.

 

My thoughts would be that Sith Intelligence can develop means of overcoming jamming technology with superior communications to break through whatever blockades the Confederacy may try to attempt.

 

However I'd also think that such a method would be expensive and impractical to apply to the battlefield itself, and it that sense divide and conquer could well prove an effective tactic, if the Confederacy can force the Fist to spread out.

 

Has SI ever done that though? Cause I don't recall....we can't really assume that they would be capable/have a means of overcoming Jamming tech.

[Beniboybling]

Has SI ever done that though? Cause I don't recall....we can't really assume that they would be capable/have a means of overcoming Jamming tech.

I'm merely assuming that as an intelligence agency, they would have anti-jamming technology (which exists in the real world, so surely in Star Wars) which would be a vital piece of kit for any organisation that specialises in espionage.

 

Mind you, from what I can gather, real world anti-jamming tech could be used in the field fairly practically. And my thoughts are that you would be a satellite (i.e. space dominance) to jam communications across an entire planet.

[Canino]

No worries, I'm just being a bully.

 

My thoughts would be that Sith Intelligence can develop means of overcoming jamming technology with superior communications to break through whatever blockades the Confederacy may try to attempt.

 

However I'd also think that such a method would be expensive and impractical to apply to the battlefield itself, and it that sense divide and conquer could well prove an effective tactic, if the Confederacy can force the Fist to spread out.

 

It wouldn't be really that expensive. These are things that would honestly be coming onto the battlefield pre equipped. And breaking down communication is never impractical. And I have a plan that makes it all the more practical.

 

You also need to remember that this won't just be one jammer. It will be a jamming blockade. Jammers in the palace, in the city, on transports and in random locations. This makes it nearly impossible to trace where they are being jammed from, and acts as a back up if one is discovered. Look at how many quests are given in game about jamming. You often need to destroy all the jammers, not just one. I know that isn't that great of an example, but it make sense.

[Canino]

I'm merely assuming that as an intelligence agency, they would have anti-jamming technology (which exists in the real world, so surely in Star Wars) which would be a vital piece of kit for any organisation that specialises in espionage.

 

Mind you, from what I can gather, real world anti-jamming tech could be used in the field fairly practically. And my thoughts are that you would be a satellite (i.e. space dominance) to jam communications across an entire planet.

 

The Fist doesn't have jamming equipment, do they? The Federation wouldn't have it, and while SI might, I doubt it. I also am doubting your logic here. Star Wars doesn't have a lot of things we have. And if you haven't noticed, physics and logic don't operate the same way there. I mean, look at any space scene. Fire, sounds, and lasers don't exactly work like that.

[Beniboybling]

It wouldn't be really that expensive. These are things that would honestly be coming onto the battlefield pre equipped. And breaking down communication is never impractical. And I have a plan that makes it all the more practical.

 

You also need to remember that this won't just be one jammer. It will be a jamming blockade. Jammers in the palace, in the city, on transports and in random locations. This makes it nearly impossible to trace where they are being jammed from, and acts as a back up if one is discovered. Look at how many quests are given in game about jamming. You often need to destroy all the jammers, not just one. I know that isn't that great of an example, but it make sense.

I'm talking about anti-jammers, but ignore that point, I think the reverse it likely true.

 

That is an interesting strategy that could prove pretty effective.

[Beniboybling]

The Fist doesn't have jamming equipment, do they? The Federation wouldn't have it, and while SI might, I doubt it. I also am doubting your logic here. Star Wars doesn't have a lot of things we have. And if you haven't noticed, physics and logic don't operate the same way there. I mean, look at any space scene. Fire, sounds, and lasers don't exactly work like that.

Its not a question of logic or physics, but technology. The technology might not work in a logical way but it still operates. I myself can't think of a signal piece of tech that we have that we know not to exist in Star Wars.

 

Jamming equipment exists, therefore surely anti-jamming tech does also. No such device would be left uncounterable.