Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Fist of the Empire vs the Confederacy

[Beniboybling]

They'd have to bring ships in with the equipment and try running the Fist blockade.

Well that is a key argument.

[tausra]

Which is all I've been saying. If the tech exists it has to be flown in.

[Aurbere]

OK, I have some free time today, so I'm going to get caught up and reply to arguments as needed. Thanks to anyone who stepped in for me, I've been super busy lately and free time is hard to come by.

[Aurbere]

How do they plan on getting jammers down to the planet? They certainly have no blockade, so how will they do it? Blockade runners? Take a good look at the Fist's fleet. It is basically a fleet of tractor beam projectors.

 

So, how are they getting their tech down to the planet again?

[tausra]

Along with a few other things that have come up in the last 20 pages. The simple fact is that the Confederacy has to do a lot of very skillful and lucky flying to get their cool pirate toys to the sand below. Alternatively, they could drop things in the sand and leave it for their speeders and transports to pick up.

[Aurbere]

1. I'm not sure, but its a minor point in comparison to what weaknesses they will actually exploit.

 

2. That only applied when they were disconnected from a Central Droid Computer, that would not be the case here.

 

However I agree, without the advantage of numbers it will be much easier to isolate and trap them.

 

3. True but it is an advantage we should not exaggerate, the CB3s remain a considerable threat to them.

 

4. I think we shouldn't take Force-based attacks in-situ for granted. When your deflecting fire from a Droideka armed with 9 separate cannons all firing plasma bolts that move (if I recall) faster than bullets you need to be of exceptional skill to be able to perform a Force push while still effectively deflecting that energy.

 

Indeed there are many occasions in which Force Users have failed to do this, for example in their very first appearance, Kenobi and Qui-Gon they are forced to flee, and they only had a fraction of the Mark II's armament.

 

Heck to be quite honest, I'd question whether they can withstand such an attack regardless.

 

5. Well Tausra made the point that if they spearhead a single offensive on the Confederacy's base they will have no choice but to divert troops. Or something to that effect. So there is that.

 

6. I was referring to the tunnels, but good points!

 

7. Think about how malware works though, it doesn't intercept your broadband and plonk it through your WiFi, I don't really think its possible to intercept tramissions for anything other than the purpose of reading the data, you can't piggyback information on to it, for that you need a an established link between two devices, that is my point here.

 

And that is how malware works, it tricks you into downloading it, it doesn't just appear. No doubt these viruses were implanted in some form of data that the CIS knew would end up being transmitted to droids. But simply broadcasting a frequency would not work if no droid picked it up, which again they would have no sensible reason to.

 

And as battle droids, they are far less integrated into galactic communications as an astromech would be. Much like in the real world it would be far easier to download malware into a laptop than it would a military computer. Military computers don't have Facebook accounts and don't download videos from Pirate Bay.

 

I doubt it because its jumping to conclusions, using ignorance of how things work to justify its validity. Simply because "we have the technology" doesn't mean they can do anything that comes under the umbrella of communications.

 

Heck we don't even have examples of military grade droids being hacked in such a manner at all. Only commercial models, models that are connected to the HoloNet, very easy to access and lack much in the way of security.

 

Sorry for the ramble, but my thoughts are that they will need to access some kind of device capable of transmitting information to the droids that the droids will willingly accept. And as military models that is restricted to the droid computer from which they receive orders. And maybe just maybe other communications through standard frequencies, but I say maybe because I doubt they will be of the write capacity of kind to transmit a virus through.

 

In the same way that you couldn't get malware video call.

 

1. It's still an advantage, though. That's all I'm saying.

 

2. Say what? They weren't connected to a CCC during the war. All they did was walk forward and shoot, just like B1s.

 

But I'm glad you agree. A smaller force such as this can be outmaneuvered and isolated for takedown.

 

3. Agreed.

 

4. It is likely that Kenobi and Jinn were unaware of that specific droideka weakness and likely saw the threat as too great to overcome in their present situation. That isn't the case here. And, to Wolf, it is foolish to think that Force users won't use the Force when they have no other option.

 

We shouldn't underestimate the Force, either. They can dodge out of the way and hit them with the Force mid-leap/dodge. Something like that. It's certainly not impossible and wouldn't require enormous effort to pull off.

 

5. Well, that's the plan. A full scale assault on Xizor's Palace will force him to divert troops to contend with the threat.

 

6. I try.

 

7. I don't think it is malware, though. It is referred to as madware. I'm not a computer genius yet, but I'd assume that they are different. This is why I likened it to HK-01 (if I did, can't remember). Considering the tech the Trade Federation uses, they likely sent a signal out over the Holonet. So they just need to hijack the communication signals the CIC uses to put the virus in. That shouldn't be difficult with Imperial Intelligence to discover the signal.

 

Oh, concerning this:

 

Heck we don't even have examples of military grade droids being hacked in such a manner at all. Only commercial models, models that are connected to the HoloNet, very easy to access and lack much in the way of security.

 

The Juggernaut War Droid was used by HK-01 in the Great Droid Revolution. So, yes, military droids can be hacked into.

[Aurbere]

Along with a few other things that have come up in the last 20 pages. The simple fact is that the Confederacy has to do a lot of very skillful and lucky flying to get their cool pirate toys to the sand below. Alternatively, they could drop things in the sand and leave it for their speeders and transports to pick up.

 

Drop how? By space via transport pod?

 

They'd have to hope Jawas, Sand People, and various beasties don't get it first.

[Aurbere]

Just gonna point something out here, the nameless SW that we see...really just don't go for Force Powers, they seem strictly to get up close and personal with the enemy. The Cortosis Battle Droids are deadly, they were able to lay waste to the entire undercity of Courscant and also invade the Jedi Temple and they proved very successful against the Jedi.

 

Now this isn't to say SW can't use Force Powers, but I don't think it's something they would go for right off the bat. They seemed to focus on being lightsaber fighters, than force users.

 

The CBD's armor can withstand lightsaber strikes, blaster fire from Sith Troopers really won't do **** to them, heck the Super 2 Battle Droids are also blaster resistant. So they are gonna be hard pressed in fighting these things, even if they have the knowledge about them. Knowledge is great and all, but it isn't the end all be all thing.

 

CBDs aren't invincible, though. Consider the Fist's vehicles, which possess major firepower.

[Beniboybling]

1. It's still an advantage, though. That's all I'm saying.

 

2. Say what? They weren't connected to a CCC during the war. All they did was walk forward and shoot, just like B1s.

 

But I'm glad you agree. A smaller force such as this can be outmaneuvered and isolated for takedown.

 

3. Agreed.

 

4. It is likely that Kenobi and Jinn were unaware of that specific droideka weakness and likely saw the threat as too great to overcome in their present situation. That isn't the case here. And, to Wolf, it is foolish to think that Force users won't use the Force when they have no other option.

 

We shouldn't underestimate the Force, either. They can dodge out of the way and hit them with the Force mid-leap/dodge. Something like that. It's certainly not impossible and wouldn't require enormous effort to pull off.

 

5. Well, that's the plan. A full scale assault on Xizor's Palace will force him to divert troops to contend with the threat.

 

6. I try.

 

7. I don't think it is malware, though. It is referred to as madware. I'm not a computer genius yet, but I'd assume that they are different. This is why I likened it to HK-01 (if I did, can't remember). Considering the tech the Trade Federation uses, they likely sent a signal out over the Holonet. So they just need to hijack the communication signals the CIC uses to put the virus in. That shouldn't be difficult with Imperial Intelligence to discover the signal.

 

Oh, concerning this:

 

Heck we don't even have examples of military grade droids being hacked in such a manner at all. Only commercial models, models that are connected to the HoloNet, very easy to access and lack much in the way of security.

 

The Juggernaut War Droid was used by HK-01 in the Great Droid Revolution. So, yes, military droids can be hacked into.

That's what they were designed to do, but that doesn't prove that when targets move out of sight they forget about them, that only happened when disconnected from the computer. This is a fact.

 

I think that unlikely, a Force Push is a Force Push, it cannot be absorbed by Force fields, you don't need special intel to know that if you Force push an object of that size it will go flying, it is the most obvious means of neutralizing them. But the fact is one would have to be a master of Soresu to perform such a maneuver against a pair of Mark IIs.

 

I think we are again exaggerating their abilities, performing Force Leap and Force Push simultaneously? That would require a great deal of control and concentration. Just as leaping in the air and firing an arrow would be equally difficult.

 

And of course, Droidekas can shoot up!

 

A virus is a virus, doesn't matter what you call it its still a program that has to be downloaded, unless you are suggesting that its transmitted through the air or something I fail to see have the name has any bearing. Hijacking the communication signals would involve taking over the droid computer, which is likely located at Jabba's Palace

 

And I'm not about to make assumptions of what happened there, I stand by my arguments, for all we know HK-01 could simply have hacked into the factory or otherwise taking control of it and hacked them that way. We lack information to state that they were hacked while on the battlefield which in the absence of conflict is quite unlikely.

[Wolfninjajedi]

CBDs aren't invincible, though. Consider the Fist's vehicles, which possess major firepower.

 

Never said they were invincible, just tough to take down and I was only factoring troop vs troop there, not vehicles. Also I'm not underestimating The Force Aurbere.

 

But really....those nameless SW we see, never once used their Force Powers in either trailer, you had them charging straight into blaster fire and Republic Troopers, 2 of them decided to charge at Jace. Can they? Yes, would they for majority sake? Probably not at the start no, their main thing was being saber duelists.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Selenial]

Beni, why do you think that a droid on a space station which has access to the most sensitive of information when hacked would have better defenses than one of thousands of droids on the frontlines?

[tausra]

Drop how? By space via transport pod?

 

They'd have to hope Jawas, Sand People, and various beasties don't get it first.

 

Never said it was safe. I've been arguing for the Fist with these points.

[Aurbere]

Never said it was safe. I've been arguing for the Fist with these points.

 

I was adding to your point.

 

I know you're helping, for which I thank you.

[Aurbere]

Never said they were invincible, just tough to take down and I was only factoring troop vs troop there, not vehicles. Also I'm not underestimating The Force Aurbere.

 

But really....those nameless SW we see, never once used their Force Powers in either trailer, you had them charging straight into blaster fire and Republic Troopers, 2 of them decided to charge at Jace. Can they? Yes, would they for majority sake? Probably not at the start no, there main thing was being saber duelists.

 

They are trained to use the Force, though. Again, just because they don't use it often, doesn't mean that they can't. It's simply illogical to believe that Force users can't or won't use the Force simply because they specialize in lightsaber combat.

 

Kao Cen Darach specialized in lightsaber combat, but he was a very powerful telekinetic. Just to name one example. There are others out there.

[Aurbere]

That's what they were designed to do, but that doesn't prove that when targets move out of sight they forget about them, that only happened when disconnected from the computer. This is a fact.

 

Um, sure, but is the CIC using a CCC? If so, why? All of its units are designed to operate independently of a CCC. It is a very bad idea. It destroyed, the droids lose their effectiveness, the same if the signal gets jammed.

 

And if they aren't using a CCC, then the weakness applies.

 

I think that unlikely, a Force Push is a Force Push, it cannot be absorbed by Force fields, you don't need special intel to know that if you Force push an object of that size it will go flying, it is the most obvious means of neutralizing them. But the fact is one would have to be a master of Soresu to perform such a maneuver against a pair of Mark IIs.

 

I think we are again exaggerating their abilities, performing Force Leap and Force Push simultaneously? That would require a great deal of control and concentration. Just as leaping in the air and firing an arrow would be equally difficult.

 

And of course, Droidekas can shoot up!

 

It's not impossible. Jumping and then Force Pushing isn't some insurmountable task. Just do it as you're coming down. They're trained Force users, you'd think that would mean that they can, you know, use the Force?

 

But I guess not.

 

A virus is a virus, doesn't matter what you call it its still a program that has to be downloaded, unless you are suggesting that its transmitted through the air or something I fail to see have the name has any bearing. Hijacking the communication signals would involve taking over the droid computer, which is likely located at Jabba's Palace

 

And I'm not about to make assumptions of what happened there, I stand by my arguments, for all we know HK-01 could simply have hacked into the factory or otherwise taking control of it and hacked them that way. We lack information to state that they were hacked while on the battlefield which in the absence of conflict is quite unlikely.

 

Again, why are they use a CCC? It makes no sense that they would use something so vulnerable. The droids are much more efficient when operating independently. If the thing gets destroyed or jammed, the army shuts down. Heck, even if they lose contact with it briefly (like in a sandstorm) they will shut down.

 

It also requires some major signal tech to properly use in a situation like this. It has to be, considering the Trade Federation had to deck out their control ships with a ton of sensor and comms tech.

 

It's just a bad idea in my opinion.

 

But back to the point, the signal can still be hacked into. The CCC uses communication signals to direct its troops. These signals can potentially be hacked into, and the virus uploaded. They will have no choice but to accept the signal, lest they shut down and become useless.

 

Heck, the Trade Federation used the CCC, they know how it works. Doing this could be even easier than I thought.

 

However, this still doesn't change that the Fist can still smuggle a virus into the CICs production lines. So it doesn't matter if the Colicoids want to work for the Fist, they will no matter what.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Aurbere

[Beniboybling]

Um, sure, but is the CIC using a CCC? If so, why? All of its units are designed to operate independently of a CCC. It is a very bad idea. It destroyed, the droids lose their effectiveness, the same if the signal gets jammed.

 

And if they aren't using a CCC, then the weakness applies.

 

 

 

It's not impossible. Jumping and then Force Pushing isn't some insurmountable task. Just do it as you're coming down. They're trained Force users, you'd think that would mean that they can, you know, use the Force?

 

But I guess not.

 

 

 

Again, why are they use a CCC? It makes no sense that they would use something so vulnerable. The droids are much more efficient when operating independently. If the thing gets destroyed or jammed, the army shuts down. Heck, even if they lose contact with it briefly (like in a sandstorm) they will shut down.

 

It also requires some major signal tech to properly use in a situation like this. It has to be, considering the Trade Federation had to deck out their control ships with a ton of sensor and comms tech.

 

It's just a bad idea in my opinion.

 

But back to the point, the signal can still be hacked into. The CCC uses communication signals to direct its troops. These signals can potentially be hacked into, and the virus uploaded. They will have no choice but to accept the signal, lest they shut down and become useless.

 

Heck, the Trade Federation used the CCC, they know how it works. Doing this could be even easier than I thought.

 

However, this still doesn't change that the Fist can still smuggle a virus into the CICs production lines. So it doesn't matter if the Colicoids want to work for the Fist, they will no matter what.

1. I suppose we cannot assume they are or are not.

 

2. Again with that logic it should be easy for an archer to leap into the air and fire a bow, its not. Your in motion, a an increasing distance from your enemy, guiding your ascent and descent with the Force, and deflecting blaster fire all at once. Heck, finding reprieve to jump into the air is a task in itself. When I picture it in my head, it looks pretty silly too.

 

3. Probably true, but that only makes them harder/impossible to hack. I don't think basic communications tech would be capable of downloading a virus, only a HoloNet transmission or a Central Droid Computer could pull that off.

 

And of course, you'd still have to capture the transceivers, again located no doubt a Jabba's Palace.

 

I think downloading a virus while in construction, which would be as easy as inserting a file into their list of programs, is the only way I see that is both logical and most importantly has a precedence. In situ again seems far-fetched.

[Wolfninjajedi]

They are trained to use the Force, though. Again, just because they don't use it often, doesn't mean that they can't. It's simply illogical to believe that Force users can't or won't use the Force simply because they specialize in lightsaber combat.

 

Kao Cen Darach specialized in lightsaber combat, but he was a very powerful telekinetic. Just to name one example. There are others out there.

 

Yes but Kao is an established character, not some random mook. Also again I never said that they couldn't use The Force, I just don't see it happening for the majority at the start.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[tausra]

I think the Sith, especially under Dooku's leadership, are smart enough to use whatever strategy would be most appropriate. Considering the Fist will have detailed information on the droids in play, Dooku has all the information to plan and direct his 50 Sith on how to strike most effectively. Not to mention these are Sith Warriors, altered, improved, and enhanced in almost every possible way to be the best biological weapon they can be. The Sith don't make dumb Warriors, they make monsters or corpses.

[Aurbere]

Yes but Kao is an established character, not some random mook. Also again I never said that they couldn't use The Force, I just don't see it happening for the majority at the start.

 

The point is that just because one specializes in lightsaber combat doesn't mean that they can't use powerful Force abilities. What can they do when the majority of their opposition is impervious to small arms fire? Their only hope is to use the Force, so that's what they'll do. They might not right away, but they could if they are aware of what they are up against, which they are.

[Aurbere]

1. I suppose we cannot assume they are or are not.

 

2. Again with that logic it should be easy for an archer to leap into the air and fire a bow, its not. Your in motion, a an increasing distance from your enemy, guiding your ascent and descent with the Force, and deflecting blaster fire all at once. Heck, finding reprieve to jump into the air is a task in itself. When I picture it in my head, it looks pretty silly too.

 

3. Probably true, but that only makes them harder/impossible to hack. I don't think basic communications tech would be capable of downloading a virus, only a HoloNet transmission or a Central Droid Computer could pull that off.

 

And of course, you'd still have to capture the transceivers, again located no doubt a Jabba's Palace.

 

I think downloading a virus while in construction, which would be as easy as inserting a file into their list of programs, is the only way I see that is both logical and most importantly has a precedence. In situ again seems far-fetched.

 

1. We have to make a choice. How are these droids operating? Independently or via a Central Control Computer? It's fundamental for how they operate.

 

2. Fine, we'll say that it's impossible... even though it's been done before and nothing is impossible for the Force, but we'll say it's impossible.

 

Edit: The SWs can just jump over the droidekas. That'll make them turn around and give other units the opportunity to take them out, or give time for the SW to attack them.

 

3. The Trade Federation has the technology, and we've seen them use it. Again, their infection of Republic droids was obviously via communication, else they wouldn't need scanners in spaceports when they can just put scanners at the factories. HK-01, IIRC what Rayla said, did it via communications, and infected military droids.

 

You wouldn't have to capture transceivers, necessarily. Have Imperial Intelligence intercept their transmission signal and slip the virus in, then the droids have to accept it or be without orders (or in the case of a CCC, shut down).

 

But, of course, I'm not relying on this strategy at all. It's simply one part of the plan, and simply corrupting their reinforcements is enough.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Aurbere

[Beniboybling]

1. We have to make a choice. How are these droids operating? Independently or via a Central Control Computer? It's fundamental for how they operate.

 

2. Fine, we'll say that it's impossible... even though it's been done before and nothing is impossible for the Force, but we'll say it's impossible.

 

Edit: The SWs can just jump over the droidekas. That'll make them turn around and give other units the opportunity to take them out, or give time for the SW to attack them.

 

3. The Trade Federation has the technology, and we've seen them use it. Again, their infection of Republic droids was obviously via communication, else they wouldn't need scanners in spaceports when they can just put scanners at the factories. HK-01, IIRC what Rayla said, did it via communications, and infected military droids.

 

You wouldn't have to capture transceivers, necessarily. Have Imperial Intelligence intercept their transmission signal and slip the virus in, then the droids have to accept it or be without orders (or in the case of a CCC, shut down).

 

But, of course, I'm not relying on this strategy at all. It's simply one part of the plan, and simply corrupting their reinforcements is enough.

People have limits, I really don't believe such a complex move is within the scope of their abilities. I feel they would need some kind of diversion, or simply another way to disable these droids, because this move carries great risks. In fact I think it might be an idea to focus on how the Fist will exploit the enemies weaknesses when conventional weapons fail.

 

We've gone over the rest, there are no instances, certainly not ones involving the Republic or the Trade Federation where military grade units have been hacked on the battlefield in this manner. Its pure assumption to say its possible. We've also gone over how military grade tech is very different from commercial tech, and why the HK-01 incident proves nothing. And I've already explained how why piggybacking viruses onto transmissions is not possible.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

People have limits, I really don't believe such a complex move is within the scope of their abilities. I feel they would need some kind of diversion, or simply another way to disable these droids, because this move carries great risks. In fact I think it might be an idea to focus on how the Fist will exploit the enemies weaknesses when conventional weapons fail.

 

We've gone over the rest, there are no instances, certainly not ones involving the Republic or the Trade Federation where military grade units have been hacked on the battlefield in this manner. Its pure assumption to say its possible. We've also gone over how military grade tech is very different from commercial tech, and why the HK-01 incident proves nothing. And I've already explained how why piggybacking viruses onto transmissions is not possible.

 

Alright, I can see you won't change your mind on either of those points so I'll let it be and move on to your suggested topic. I would, however, like a definitive answer on how the droids are being controlled. Either method has weaknesses that will factor into my argument.

[Beniboybling]

Alright, I can see you won't change your mind on either of those points so I'll let it be and move on to your suggested topic. I would, however, like a definitive answer on how the droids are being controlled. Either method has weaknesses that will factor into my argument.

I think the absence of a CCC is more likely.

[Aurbere]

I think the absence of a CCC is more likely.

 

That's the best choice for Canino's faction, in my opinion.

[Selenial]

People have limits, I really don't believe such a complex move is within the scope of their abilities. I feel they would need some kind of diversion, or simply another way to disable these droids, because this move carries great risks. In fact I think it might be an idea to focus on how the Fist will exploit the enemies weaknesses when conventional weapons fail.

 

We've gone over the rest, there are no instances, certainly not ones involving the Republic or the Trade Federation where military grade units have been hacked on the battlefield in this manner. Its pure assumption to say its possible. We've also gone over how military grade tech is very different from commercial tech, and why the HK-01 incident proves nothing. And I've already explained how why piggybacking viruses onto transmissions is not possible.

 

Again.

 

Battle droids can be stopped, shot, with ease if taken over.

 

A single astromech on a ship gets hacked and the battle plans of whichever faction it serves and possible technical readouts are leaked directly to the enemy.

 

Why would any competent commander put better defenses on the one that can do the least damage.