Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Fist of the Empire vs the Confederacy

[Aurbere]

1. Knowledge is not always an advantage, if there are no weaknesses to exploit all it does it lower morale. You can just imagine the effect reeling of their capabilities to the troops would have.

 

That's not a problem for fanatic, battle-hardened warriors.

 

Edit: If anything the knowledge is a morale boost. The Fist knows how to beat their enemy. How is that a bad thing?

 

2. It has two mounted weapons as opposed to one, which can swivel in any direction and do appear larger. So I'd say at least double the firepower, rate of fire and twice the flexibility, which is a substantial improvement.

 

I'm fairly certain TCW had SBDs with two weapon arms.

 

3. Anakin Skywalker is grossly superior to any of the Fist's Sith Warriors, that goes without saying. I'm not saying this advantage is negligible, but it its not perfect. I several Sith Warriors will fail, if they even succeed in getting in range. And remember there are only 50 of them, they are outnumbered 10 to 1 and can't afford to all be on the battlefield.

 

I know Anakin is better. What I'm saying is that it doesn't take Anakin to beat them. The training of these warriors is enough for them to deal with the droids just fine.

 

What should also be remembered is that the C-B3s are just as dumb as SBDs are because they possess the same programming matrix. They're basically going to just walk forward and shoot, and lose their target when it leaves LOS.

 

5. I assume being put on its side, would involve being pushed over. Well good luck with that.

 

I mentioned the Force. It's not that difficult to just tip something over with the Force.

 

6. Missiles though? I would think that would prove dangerous (if possible) to itself and friendly forces.

 

Yes, missiles. Sure when the battle is in close the missiles would be a bad idea, but not at range.

 

7. An interesting strategy, but negated somewhat if the Confederacy avoids a primary offensive.

 

They have to deal with the Fist's forces somehow. If the CIC avoids conflict, then the Fist can either stroll right up to Jabba's Palace or force them to attack the garrison base.

 

8. Said tunnel could be collapsed. Potentially burying the strike force in rubble. And even then a small strike force of C-B3s, Commando Droids and Droidekas, led by Durge and/or Guri/Urai Fen could deal with such a force. I feel such a plan would have to be well thought out, and would require a the majority of Xizor's forces to be diverted from the palace.

 

The CIC would have to be made aware of the Fist's intrusion, but that's what Intelligence is for. They'll be able to pick up traps to prevent the cave from collapsing on their heads.

 

Don't overestimate the effects of a cyber war, remember that will only effect reinforcements. A luxury the Fist does not even have. Whereas those troops already on the ground will be far more difficult it not impossible to infect.

 

The corruption of the Colicoid Creation Nest effects reinforcements, the Trade Federation signal will infect the CICs droid troops. It is not limited to one or the other. It is not impossible to infect the CICs ground troops in the slightest. How do you think the Separatists managed to infect the Republic's droids. It wouldn't have been that big of a deal and require substantial counter measures to be made if it only affected new droids. It didn't matter how new or old they were, they were still subject to suspicion.

 

I'm not overestimating the effects of a cyber war. I plainly laid out what the methods were. You seem to have misinterpreted. Hopefully I have alleviated your concerns.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Aurbere

[Beniboybling]

That's not a problem for fanatic, battle-hardened warriors.

 

Edit: If anything the knowledge is a morale boost. The Fist knows how to beat their enemy. How is that a bad thing?

 

I'm fairly certain TCW had SBDs with two weapon arms.

 

I know Anakin is better. What I'm saying is that it doesn't take Anakin to beat them. The training of these warriors is enough for them to deal with the droids just fine.

 

What should also be remembered is that the C-B3s are just as dumb as SBDs are because they possess the same programming matrix. They're basically going to just walk forward and shoot, and lose their target when it leaves LOS.

 

I mentioned the Force. It's not that difficult to just tip something over with the Force.

 

Yes, missiles. Sure when the battle is in close the missiles would be a bad idea, but not at range.

 

They have to deal with the Fist's forces somehow. If the CIC avoids conflict, then the Fist can either stroll right up to Jabba's Palace or force them to attack the garrison base.

 

The CIC would have to be made aware of the Fist's intrusion, but that's what Intelligence is for. They'll be able to pick up traps to prevent the cave from collapsing on their heads.

 

The corruption of the Colicoid Creation Nest effects reinforcements, the Trade Federation signal will infect the CICs droid troops. It is not limited to one or the other. It is not impossible to infect the CICs ground troops in the slightest. How do you think the Separatists managed to infect the Republic's droids. It wouldn't have been that big of a deal and require substantial counter measures to be made if it only affected new droids. It didn't matter how new or old they were, they were still subject to suspicion.

 

I'm not overestimating the effects of a cyber war. I plainly laid out what the methods were. You seem to have misinterpreted. Hopefully I have alleviated your concerns.

1. Well that's the point, this information doesn't benefit the soldiers in anyway, all they are now aware is that their enemies are bristling weapons platforms and their is nothing they can do to harm them.

 

Not exactly a cry to rally around.

 

2. Correct, but they only ever seemed to use one, and don't look as powerful.

 

3. Well such a precise cut would require someone of impressive talent to be capable of performing it on multiple droids in rapid succession without being wounded or killed. It is unlikely that all of them will succeed in destroying more than a dozen when being attacked from all angles by Droidekas and Commandos as well as CB3s.

 

4. Hard I would think when under suppressive fire, or all Droidekas would be neutralized in such a way. I can only recall this tactic being used twice, and that was by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Mace Windu before they came under fire.

 

5. What I meant by that is not concentrating their force all in one place. The Confederacy will likely attack through a series of multiple ambushes all of equal strength and on many different fronts. As such there won't be any one main front that the Annihilator can be sent to, nor can it be in several places at once.

 

6. Well if the whole thing is guarded by droids, one would think avoiding detection would be impossible.

 

7. But the CIC troops aren't just going to accept communications from anyone. Certainly not the enemy. Else early on during the Clone Wars the Republic would have merely developed and transmitted a shut down signal to the entire droid army. My thoughts are that they would have hack into the central droid computer, which all of the droids if need be can be disconnected from and operate independently of. So I do think this tactic is exaggerated somewhat.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Beniboybling

[tausra]

Actually I don't think a bioscanner would work on Guri. The whole point of the model was to fool people and instruments into thinking that they were human.

 

That is how Leia and crew discovered she wasn't human, but it didn't tell what she was exactly.

[karadron]

That is how Leia and crew discovered she wasn't human, but it didn't tell what she was exactly.

 

But will an inconclusive scan be enough to tip them off?

 

Guri really though can't leave Xizor's side now. Kilran didn't die so the whole faction will be on the lookout for someone matching her description. So any assassination work will fall to Fen and Durge.

[tausra]

I think the COnfederacy ambush tactic is being a bit overblown. It is very hard to engage in am ambush without something to hide behind or some sort of cover. The Dune Sea is endless emptiness and sand, and what few good points there are would likely already be covered by the dangerous native species. The ones who knwo the best ambush routes were the Tuskens, and they don't play nice with anyone regardless of how wealthy they happen to be.

 

Even after saying all of the above, we are forgetting how powerful an Annihilator's shield is. It could shelter whole squads of Droideka from harm and keep firing. The Confederacy can ambush as many soldiers as they like, if they've got an Annihilator watching over them, the fight will end quickly.

 

We keep mentioning how the CIS will spread the Fist out and crush them. The Fist benefits most by direct action, using their long ranged weaponry to securely transport troops across the sand in a single mass.

 

Guri Continued:

When everyone in the Fist location will ring clearly organic or solidly droid, anything in between is unusual.

Edited August 26, 2014 by tausra

[Wolfninjajedi]

 

Sith Troopers are an extremely effective fighting force, they have the advanced training of a Clone Trooper

 

Explain this, because I'm calling shenanigans

[Beniboybling]

Explain this, because I'm calling shenanigans

Every civilian within the Sith Empire is trained in military combat from a young age and join the military as soon as they are able, much like the Clones. And considering that the Sith Empire is an extremely militarised society with the military being its greatest and most influential asset I have little doubt that they're training regiments are just as rigorous and just as advanced as what was given to the Clones, if not more so, no expense would have been spared.

 

For example both the Clones and the Sith troops engaged in live fire exercises, but the Sith troops did so in some of the most hostile environments in the galaxy, as opposed to a simulated test center. In that respect the Clones had it soft.

[Beniboybling]

I think the COnfederacy ambush tactic is being a bit overblown. It is very hard to engage in am ambush without something to hide behind or some sort of cover. The Dune Sea is endless emptiness and sand, and what few good points there are would likely already be covered by the dangerous native species. The ones who knwo the best ambush routes were the Tuskens, and they don't play nice with anyone regardless of how wealthy they happen to be.

 

Even after saying all of the above, we are forgetting how powerful an Annihilator's shield is. It could shelter whole squads of Droideka from harm and keep firing. The Confederacy can ambush as many soldiers as they like, if they've got an Annihilator watching over them, the fight will end quickly.

 

We keep mentioning how the CIS will spread the Fist out and crush them. The Fist benefits most by direct action, using their long ranged weaponry to securely transport troops across the sand in a single mass.

 

Guri Continued:

When everyone in the Fist location will ring clearly organic or solidly droid, anything in between is unusual.

Don't forget that the Confederacy have stealthed transports, this allows them not only to quickly traverse terrain but do so completely undetected, they can bypass enemy lines and land right on top of them.

 

I'd even go as far as to say they could utilise Trident-class assault ships. Sure they were designed for aquatic combat but we are dealing with a sea of sand here. I expect they would have little difficult burrowing into the dunes which could prove an effective and devastating means of ambushing troops as they burst out of the ground.

 

Concerning Annihilators, I think Fist cyber warfare could well cause that tactic to backfire. If the Fist catches on to them building Annihilator droids it is most certainly those they will target and attempt to corrupt first.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Every civilian within the Sith Empire is trained in military combat from a young age and join the military as soon as they are able, much like the Clones. And considering that the Sith Empire is an extremely militarised society with the military being its greatest and most influential asset I have little doubt that they're training regiments are just as rigorous and just as advanced as what was given to the Clones, if not more so, no expense would have been spared.

 

For example both the Clones and the Sith troops engaged in live fire exercises, but the Sith troops did so in some of the most hostile environments in the galaxy, as opposed to a simulated test center. In that respect the Clones had it soft.

 

Every civilian huh?....Young age? Ok...mind if I get a source on that? Quotes? Cause I'm just seeking weeks for their training, not years and they were recruited from an Enlisted caste, the non combatants were just trained in basic survival and weapons.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Every civilian huh?....Young age? Ok...mind if I get a source on that? Quotes? Cause I'm just seeking weeks for their training, not years and they were recruited from an Enlisted caste, the non combatants were just trained in basic survival and weapons.

Compulsory military service is one of the central tenets of Imperial society. Those who are not Force-sensitive are automatically enlisted as soon as they become adults, and remain in the Empire's service until retirement or when death and disability renders them unable to contribute.

 

...

 

The Empire is fueled by its massive stock of loyal, devoted and dedicated citizenry. Every man, woman, and child in the Empire is required to work to ensure Imperial success. A military mindset is ingrained in children from a young age, encouraging competition, and rewarding achievement. Young Imperials are analysed for proficiency before they are assigned to specialised academies, where they further hone their skills in service to the Empire.

 

...

 

Few military forces in the galaxy can match the coordination, skill, and aggression of the Imperial infantry. Their many victories in battle are a testament to their rigorous training, which uses live-fire exercises in the most brutal environments in the galaxy to transform eager recruits into lethal implements of the Emperor's will.

 

--Taken from the SWTOR Encyclopedia

 

I'd certainly like to see your sources that the average training of a Sith trooper lasted mere weeks. As I said the Sith Empire would have spared no expense in the training of their greatest assets, they are elite troops, and elite troops of such a high level of ability require years of training from a young age, not a few weeks in an academy.

 

Though you are correct not everyone serves as front line troops, but that is besides the point.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Compulsory military service is one of the central tenets of Imperial society. Those who are not Force-sensitive are automatically enlisted as soon as they become adults, and remain in the Empire's service until retirement or when death and disability renders them unable to contribute.

 

...

 

The Empire is fueled by its massive stock of loyal, devoted and dedicated citizenry. Every man, woman, and child in the Empire is required to work to ensure Imperial success. A military mindset is ingrained in children from a young age, encouraging competition, and rewarding achievement. Young Imperials are analysed for proficiency before they are assigned to specialised academies, where they further hone their skills in service to the Empire.

 

...

 

Few military forces in the galaxy can match the coordination, skill, and aggression of the Imperial infantry. Their many victories in battle are a testament to their rigorous training, which uses live-fire exercises in the most brutal environments in the galaxy to transform eager recruits into lethal implements of the Emperor's will.

 

--Taken from the SWTOR Encyclopedia

 

I'd certainly like to see your sources that the average training of a Sith trooper lasted mere weeks. As I said the Sith Empire would have spared no expense in the training of their greatest assets, they are elite troops, and elite troops of such a high level of ability require years of training from a young age, not a few weeks in an academy.

 

Though you are correct not everyone serves as front line troops, but that is besides the point.

 

Alright, though it says they are enlisted when they become adults, not before. A mindset is put into the children, but they aren't pushed into training at a child's age. Although I'm getting the weeks bit off of the wookiee, it could be longer but Beni I doubt it was as long as what the Clones went through.

[tausra]

An entire caste of people, destined to strap on the battle armor and carry a rifle would only receive a few weeks of training? If you have an entire stock of people destined to serve the military, to fight and die simply because of parentage. The Empire is shown to care little for the lives of individual soldiers, so who cares how many die in training. Why not train their low caste, expendable soldiers as hard as physically possible. Logically, sadistic levels of training for the "Enlisted Caste" sounds fitting for the Darwinist, elitist Empire.

[Beniboybling]

Alright, though it says they are enlisted when they become adults, not before. A mindset is put into the children, but they aren't pushed into training at a child's age. Although I'm getting the weeks bit off of the wookiee, it could be longer but Beni I doubt it was as long as what the Clones went through.

I can only assume that you missed this:

 

Young Imperials are analysed for proficiency before they are assigned to specialised academies, where they further hone their skills in service to the Empire.

 

So as I said, they are trained from a young age. Not as young as the clones, but your not taking into account their accelerated growth rate. They age twice as fast as a normal human being which means they're years in training will be shorter. The youngest clones we see in training are 5 years old (age 10 physique) and they are dispatched to the front lines at the age of 10 i.e. 20. That's 5 years training. I have little doubt Imperial soldiers receive something similar.

 

And as I said, the Imperial training regiment seems even more rigorous.

 

Anyway I'm not sure what page your reading, because I can't find it. And it is nowhere mentioned in the SWTORE which as far as I'm aware is the only source on the Imperial Army at this point, or at least the most definitive one.

 

So yeah, I'm calling shenanigans on that. Please provide a quote and/or source.

An entire caste of people, destined to strap on the battle armor and carry a rifle would only receive a few weeks of training? If you have an entire stock of people destined to serve the military, to fight and die simply because of parentage. The Empire is shown to care little for the lives of individual soldiers, so who cares how many die in training. Why not train their low caste, expendable soldiers as hard as physically possible. Logically, sadistic levels of training for the "Enlisted Caste" sounds fitting for the Darwinist, elitist Empire.

My thoughts exactly, I'd also draw attention that Stormtroopers received two years of training, and while skilled they hardly match up to the abilities of the Sith Empire's forces - at least that's what I gather their from description.

 

Heck I say "while skilled", Rebels seems intent to tarnish their reputation beyond recovery.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Wolfninjajedi]

I can only assume that you missed this:

 

Young Imperials are analysed for proficiency before they are assigned to specialised academies, where they further hone their skills in service to the Empire.

 

So as I said, they are trained from a young age. Not as young as the clones, but your not taking into account their accelerated growth rate. They age twice as fast as a normal human being which means they're years in training will be shorter. The youngest clones we see in training are 5 years old (age 10 physique) and they are dispatched to the front lines at the age of 10 i.e. 20. That's 5 years training. I have little doubt Imperial soldiers receive something similar.

 

And as I said, the Imperial training regiment seems even more rigorous.

 

Anyway I'm not sure what page your reading, because I can't find it. And it is nowhere mentioned in the SWTORE which as far as I'm aware is the only source on the Imperial Army at this point, or at least the most definitive one.

 

So yeah, I'm calling shenanigans on that. Please provide a quote and/or source.My thoughts exactly, I'd also draw attention that Stormtroopers received two years of training, and while skilled they hardly match up to the abilities of the Sith Empire's forces - at least that's what I gather their from description.

 

Heck I say "while skilled", Rebels seems intent to tarnish their reputation beyond recovery.

 

No I saw that, but the 1st quote says they are trained when they become adults, not as children.

 

Also I'm getting the weeks from here

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Army_(Sith_Empire)

 

Ground forces begin live-fire exercises in the jungles of Dromund Kaas within weeks of their enlistment into the military, and even those non-combatants in the military were trained in the use of basic weapons, survival skills, and first aid.

 

Sure it probably could be longer for their training, but I don't think it would be more than what the Clones go through, that's just too long for regular humans.

 

Although I don't think we're gonna get anywhere, the SE is rather vague still so we might need to wait till more solid info come.

 

Plus I'd rather not continue on with this and focus on the fighting instead.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

No I saw that, but the 1st quote says they are trained when they become adults, not as children.

 

Also I'm getting the weeks from here

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Army_(Sith_Empire)

 

 

 

Sure it probably could be longer for their training, but I don't think it would be more than what the Clones go through, that's just too long for regular humans.

 

Although I don't think we're gonna get anywhere, the SE is rather vague still so we might need to wait till more solid info come.

 

Plus I'd rather not continue on with this and focus on the fighting instead.

It says the enlist when they become adults, adults not being "young imperials." That in itself makes it a fact that Imperials are trained prior to joining the military.

 

My thoughts are that at a young age those with potential likely join some kind of military academy were alongside standard curriculum they are taught rudimentary combat skills. Then when they "come of age" or rather become adults they join the Imperial Military and undergo official and far more rigorous training.

 

Anyway, you seem to have misread that passage. All it says is that said exercises begin weeks into their training, it says nothing about how long that training lasts, which could easily be years. Indeed the fact specifies weeks as if it were an early stage, conflicts with this notion that their training only lasts weeks, as that would not be early at all.

 

I really don't understand what you mean by "too long for regular humans." The average Imperial soldier is in the military until retirement, fighting for 25 to 30 years. If he can handle that much combat he can handle 5 years training.

 

P.S. I think we have enough information on the Imperial Military to draw the conclusion that they undergo rigorous and elite training, and start said training at a young age. Nor do I expect further information to be forthcoming.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Wolfninjajedi]

It says the enlist when they become adults, adults not being "young imperials." That in itself makes it a fact that Imperials are trained prior to joining the military.

 

My thoughts are that at a young age those with potential likely join some kind of military academy were alongside standard curriculum they are taught rudimentary combat skills. Then when they "come of age" or rather become adults they join the Imperial Military and undergo official and far more rigorous training.

 

Anyway, you seem to have misread that passage. All it says is that said exercises begin weeks into their training, it says nothing about how long that training lasts, which could easily be years. Indeed the fact specifies weeks as if it were an early stage, conflicts with this notion that their training only lasts weeks, as that would not be early at all.

 

I really don't understand what you mean by "too long for regular humans." The average Imperial soldier is in the military until retirement, fighting for 25 to 30 years. If he can handle that much combat he can handle 5 years training.

 

P.S. I think we have enough information on the Imperial Military to draw the conclusion that they undergo rigorous and elite training, and start said training at a young age. Nor do I expect further information to be forthcoming.

 

There is enough info to draw that they go through rigorous training, but we don't know how long said training is, is what I'm getting at. We don't know if it's 5 years or 2 years, or 1 year, or 4 months or 8 weeks or whatever. All we know is that it's intense training.....

Edited August 26, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[tausra]

6 -12 weeks is modern training period, however the quote seems to imply that the training was longer than this period. If the training period was a year or longer, I think the book would note it. Wiht above considered I think it would be rational to conclude the Troopers are trained for somewhere between 4 and 8 months.

 

However, more important than the training regime is the fact that every Imperial trooper is immediately put on active duty, in some of the most hostile planets in the galaxy. There are no green troopers, only veterans and corpses.

[Beniboybling]

Good points, perhaps we should turn our attention back to the ground battle itself.

[tausra]

I may have missed this, but are we including the Tusken in this discussion? They are hardly organized well enough to be called a faction, yet still exist with some tribal structures in place.Their validity will be a pretty crucial fulcrum in the Kaggath, as their presence could swing things in many different and debatable ways.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I may have missed this, but are we including the Tusken in this discussion? They are hardly organized well enough to be called a faction, yet still exist with some tribal structures in place.Their validity will be a pretty crucial fulcrum in the Kaggath, as their presence could swing things in many different and debatable ways.

 

I don't think the Sand People would be any threat to either force, they have primitive weaponry(slugthrowers which can't even go through the weakest armor in SW, unless the Sand People target the neck or visor on the helmet), their clubs won't do much of anything to armor or at the least nothing the troops wouldn't be able to get out of. This isn't even factoring the vehicles and other things, that would just demolish.

 

Sand People aren't known for taking on well organized and equipped groups, especially military forces. Sure they raided on Tatooine, but really....it's a backwater world. I think the Sand People would stay out of their way really rather than get involved.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

I may have missed this, but are we including the Tusken in this discussion? They are hardly organized well enough to be called a faction, yet still exist with some tribal structures in place.Their validity will be a pretty crucial fulcrum in the Kaggath, as their presence could swing things in many different and debatable ways.

The sand people would not be an organisation, so yes they are permitted.

 

However in this case I might be inclined to agree with Wolf.

[tausra]

I disagree with them being of marginal impact. There is a reason that no army or organized force has ever really controlled Tatooine for very long. They have been shown in the films as a serious threat, able to shoot out the engines of super-fast pod racers. Depending on the game, the sand people are wraiths, appearing just in time to ambush supply lines, take down vulnerable armor and artillery. They can attack in numbers, especially during the frequent sandstorms in the dune seas, and disappear before retaliation can be organized. If anyone knows the shortcuts and hidden paths around Tatooine it will be them, and they'll hit wherever you want to see them least.

[Beniboybling]

I disagree with them being of marginal impact. There is a reason that no army or organized force has ever really controlled Tatooine for very long. They have been shown in the films as a serious threat, able to shoot out the engines of super-fast pod racers. Depending on the game, the sand people are wraiths, appearing just in time to ambush supply lines, take down vulnerable armor and artillery. They can attack in numbers, especially during the frequent sandstorms in the dune seas, and disappear before retaliation can be organized. If anyone knows the shortcuts and hidden paths around Tatooine it will be them, and they'll hit wherever you want to see them least.

I good point. I suppose its simply a question of who is more vulnerable.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I disagree with them being of marginal impact. There is a reason that no army or organized force has ever really controlled Tatooine for very long. They have been shown in the films as a serious threat, able to shoot out the engines of super-fast pod racers. Depending on the game, the sand people are wraiths, appearing just in time to ambush supply lines, take down vulnerable armor and artillery. They can attack in numbers, especially during the frequent sandstorms in the dune seas, and disappear before retaliation can be organized. If anyone knows the shortcuts and hidden paths around Tatooine it will be them, and they'll hit wherever you want to see them least.

 

It's because they don't care about Tatooine is the reason no one(except really the Hutts) has ever controlled it, why would anyone? Also I knew you were gonna bring up the Pod Racing bit, but that honestly was a load of *** the fact that the slugthrowers was able to even penetrate a Pod Racer(when on Anakin's racer the slugs merely just glanced off doing no damage) either means the Pod Racer that one was driving was a POS, or they just wanted to have some more explosions.

 

The Sand People go after camp sites, settlements and the like, they have never been known to attack a military force. Or actually a Tusken youth did go out as a rite of passage with another youth and he came back the only one with 4 Stormtrooper helmets.

 

It isn't explained how he did it though. So they can attack small squads, but really...that's about it. I could see it happening once or twice, but then when either faction takes notice, they'll up the defenses and the like for protection.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Canino]

Alright I'm finally back! I got home on Tuesday, and then spent the entire day out, again, yesterday. But I'm back today, so let's get debating.

 

I'll have to go back through, as I'm sure I'll have plenty to debate. I also may bring up rule 119 in the rulebook.

 

Oh, and nice to have you back Wolf! Now you can argue for Durge