Why I quit (parked) my PVP Commando and Merc

[csant]

I would think PT/Vanguard would/should do great versus stealthers... if they stealth and cc you and try to heal... you can shoulder canon their asses.... not to mention PT/Vanguard make really great node defenders.

 

To me it sounds like you are trying to defend nodes and get blown up by stealthers. How do you do against one? On my merc only lv45, I do pretty good against stealthers 1v1 and I cant wait for electro net. Mercmandos aren't good node defenders, sorry. =)

[Thermisticles]

No there are not, in ranked they are the second wors class of all.

 

For regulars mercs and commandos are doing fine nowadays, you just need to concentrate on the objectives and you shouldn't too much care if you die or not.

 

Hard to do if you're dead.

BTW, commandos are definetly not the right class to defend a node, but if you have to do it, your only job is it, to first shout for help and than to interrupt one capture. If you are guarding around 25 meters away from the node this is always possible (against one stealther).

 

Wasn't defending the node by choice, was kinda abandoned there by the others. Yes, I did sing out,..but delay the cap,..stunned, then suddenly dead,..

 

Cheers,

 

Thermisticles

[Thermisticles]

I would think PT/Vanguard would/should do great versus stealthers... if they stealth and cc you and try to heal... you can shoulder canon their asses.... not to mention PT/Vanguard make really great node defenders.

 

At least you can do something.

To me it sounds like you are trying to defend nodes and get blown up by stealthers.

 

No, only in that example. Usually, i;m on the outer of a group dpsing, then wham,..back to the holding bay

 

How do you do against one? On my merc only lv45, I do pretty good against stealthers 1v1 and I cant wait for electro net. Mercmandos aren't good node defenders, sorry. =)

 

1v1 it varies,..sometimes I live longer, and take the stealther for a jolly old run,..but i'm always the prey. Othertimes, ..15 seconds,..back to holding bay.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Thermisticles

[Ashwinn]

No there are not, in ranked they are the second wors class of all.

 

For regulars mercs and commandos are doing fine nowadays, you just need to concentrate on the objectives and you shouldn't too much care if you die or not.

 

BTW, commandos are definetly not the right class to defend a node, but if you have to do it, your only job is it, to first shout for help and than to interrupt one capture. If you are guarding around 25 meters away from the node this is always possible (against one stealther).

 

Arsenal is not very good in solo I will agree to that, unless you have a good healer or a guard present, but definitely viable in 4's no doubt about that. If You want to shine in solo you better heal, know how to kite fake cast heals, know when to use your abilities. Too close the gap you need to use everything you got electro net defensively when they get close electro dart them, then when they're on you hydraulic and kite when everything is on cd including heals time your shield right keep yourself top off and keep kiting.

 

The problem I see with most mercs are they just stand in one spot you have to kite and pillar hump **** that's the way... KITE KITE KITE my merc/mando are both above 2350+ rating.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Ashwinn

[DerTaran]

The problem I see with most mercs are they just stand in one spot you have to kite and pillar hump **** that's the way... KITE KITE KITE my merc/mando are both above 2350+ rating.

I should correct my statement: The majority of the DD commandos/mercs are not viable in arenas.

 

Congratulation, you are playing the 5. and the 6. best rated commando/merc on the leaderboard (the best 2 on your server). I would say, your personal talent compensates the weaknesses of the class, but for most of us less gifted DD commando/merc players, arenas are just worthless.

And of cause you are right, you have to move all the time as commando, then you are much more viable.

 

The bigges pain in arenas I have, is the fact, that I'm always picked as target number one, if the opposit party has a stealther I'm dead befor the game even starts (or lost 2/3 of my life).

 

As a healer, you can heal yourself up and the other 3 take care of you, as a DD it isn't that easy.

Edited August 10, 2014 by DerTaran

[DerTaran]

Wasn't defending the node by choice, was kinda abandoned there by the others. Yes, I did sing out,..but delay the cap,..stunned, then suddenly dead,...

But that's ok, the stealther has two possibilities, he can try to cap the node if you are stunned, in this case (and only in this one) you use the stun-breaker and interrupt him so he needs to stun you again (and because of the 25 meter distance he can't do this without loosing time) or he killes you, in both cases, your team mates have all the time to help you and you win, even if you are dead.

If nobody is comming to support you, then loosing the node was'nt your fault.

Edited August 10, 2014 by DerTaran

[Thermisticles]

But that's ok, the stealther has two possibilities, he can try to cap the node if you are stunned, in this case (and only in this one) you use the stun-breaker and interrupt him so he needs to stun you again (and because of the 25 meter distance he can't do this without loosing time) or he killes you, in both cases, your team mates have all the time to help you and you win, even if you are dead.

If nobody is comming to support you, then loosing the node was'nt your fault.

 

That's a good point. I guess I just inched up the learning curve a bit. Help with the objective, even if i'm dead.

 

The upside of death is that you have plenty of time to type. lol.

[Aetideus]

I should correct my statement: The majority of the DD commandos/mercs are not viable in arenas.

 

Congratulation, you are playing the 5. and the 6. best rated commando/merc on the leaderboard (the best 2 on your server). I would say, your personal talent compensates the weaknesses of the class, but for most of us less gifted DD commando/merc players, arenas are just worthless.

And of cause you are right, you have to move all the time as commando, then you are much more viable.

 

The bigges pain in arenas I have, is the fact, that I'm always picked as target number one, if the opposit party has a stealther I'm dead befor the game even starts (or lost 2/3 of my life).

 

As a healer, you can heal yourself up and the other 3 take care of you, as a DD it isn't that easy.

 

Survive the first wave. Use shield even. Run away and kite.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Aetideus

[DerTaran]

Survive the first wave. Use shield even. Run away and kite.

I'm working on it

[DerTaran]

That's a good point. I guess I just inched up the learning curve a bit. Help with the objective, even if i'm dead.

 

The upside of death is that you have plenty of time to type. lol.

You have to type first, even if you die doing it. Every second counts. I already have "snow income " typed in guarding, if somebody attacks, I just need to add the number and hit return!

That's the difference to ranked, tactical dying is an option.

[easeyway]

What's wrong with permanent stealth, stealth in general, and group stealth ability:

 

1. You can't be marked at the beginning of the round.

2. You cant be targeted at the beginning of the round.

3. Stealth will remove a focus target.

4. Combine this with operative/scoundrel group stealth ability, you can ensure no teammate of yours is focus targeted as the stealth ends.

5. You have unlimited amount of time to plan your first offensive, which is neither fun nor fair.

 

This is just a short list of things that's wrong with stealth and arenas.

 

Don't even get me started on 8v8 warzones. Information is key and the fact that you can't know where your opponent is in an objective game is so huge that it's silly.

 

Don't get me wrong I like that there are classes who by definition are gankers. But they shouldn't have access to a stealth that can last forever. Here's just a few reasons why:

 

1. You have too much information advantage (you know where all your non stealth opponents are but none of them know where you are or where you will be because there is no limit to your stealth)

2. You have too much impact on the objectives in the game. You can ninja cap, or defend an objective - even vs a full team - long enough for a) your team to come or b) other stealther does the same thing, respawn, and rinse and repeat. And you can still kill stuff in a group fight just like any other class so you have it all.

 

If stealth has a timer - or consumed a resource - then it could be a lot of fun. As of now it's just a game breaking ability that sucks the fun out of every warzone ever played. The end.

[Fdzzaigl]

What's wrong with permanent stealth, stealth in general, and group stealth ability:

 

1. You can't be marked at the beginning of the round.

2. You cant be targeted at the beginning of the round.

3. Stealth will remove a focus target.

4. Combine this with operative/scoundrel group stealth ability, you can ensure no teammate of yours is focus targeted as the stealth ends.

5. You have unlimited amount of time to plan your first offensive, which is neither fun nor fair.

 

This is just a short list of things that's wrong with stealth and arenas.

 

Don't even get me started on 8v8 warzones. Information is key and the fact that you can't know where your opponent is in an objective game is so huge that it's silly.

 

Don't get me wrong I like that there are classes who by definition are gankers. But they shouldn't have access to a stealth that can last forever. Here's just a few reasons why:

 

1. You have too much information advantage (you know where all your non stealth opponents are but none of them know where you are or where you will be because there is no limit to your stealth)

2. You have too much impact on the objectives in the game. You can ninja cap, or defend an objective - even vs a full team - long enough for a) your team to come or b) other stealther does the same thing, respawn, and rinse and repeat. And you can still kill stuff in a group fight just like any other class so you have it all.

 

If stealth has a timer - or consumed a resource - then it could be a lot of fun. As of now it's just a game breaking ability that sucks the fun out of every warzone ever played. The end.

 

Exactly this. I've just come back to SW:TOR after a long absence and swiftly got to enjoy the prevalence of stealthy stunlocking backstabbers once again upon leveling one of my long-parked and never finished alts.

 

Devs and players from various games don't seem to fully grasp just how powerful permanent stealth by itself is. These classes always end up either overpowered as **** because of their frontloaded burst and ability to plan out a complete strategy before anyone knows they're there, or underpowered as hell because the devs nerfed all their other abilities due to having such a powerful tool.

 

I got to see the whole road this game has walked in regards to stealth too. How fondly I remember the early days before the surge rating nerfs when operatives and assassins could basically two-shot (or even oneshot in rare cases), you from stealth. Even then the playerbase for those classes came up with silly excuses like: "Oh you play a trooper, you should be able to ping their location before they get you", like you have some sort of telepathic power at your command.

 

It's good to see in any case that assassins are still in the same spot in the food chain as when I left the game after War Hero gear rankeds: at the top of the flock.

 

TOR's pvp is fairly enjoyable and its too late to change it now, but by the gods does pvp improve a lot when this stupid mechanic is abolished.

[Zoom_VI]

I want to know how people still manage to complain about backstabbing stunlockers. Seriously Operatives have one hardstun. ONE.

[PloGreen]

Stealth fine, it's not game-breaking really. Besides which troopers, have anti stealth abilities anyway.

 

Stealth has advantages and disadvantages just like any archetype.

Edited August 10, 2014 by PloGreen

[DariusCalera]

Stealth fine, it's not game-breaking really. Besides which troopers, have anti stealth abilities anyway.

 

Stealth has advantages and disadvantages just like any archetype.

 

It's one ability which is easily avoidable.

[Adovir]

I want to know how people still manage to complain about backstabbing stunlockers. Seriously Operatives have one hardstun. ONE.

 

Wait people don't know that? They removed our knock down which was 3 seconds reduced to 1.5 then turned into a root. Flash bang is a mez which unless you're lethality(which lets be honest how many dps ops/drels play lethality) your dots break it, so it's useful to interrupt skills.

[JackNader]

I interpreted his "backstab" comment as being a generalization of stealth gameplay and not the operative ability.. Sure you can be pedantic and think he was only talking about operatives. Either way, meh...

[wwkingms]

yea... i can see how tossing out 12k heatseekers can get old

[Transairion]

Stealth fine, it's not game-breaking really. Besides which troopers, have anti stealth abilities anyway.

 

Stealth has advantages and disadvantages just like any archetype.

 

 

"Abilities", as in, plural?

 

Stealth Scan reveals stealth... if someone is dumb enough to blunder into the AOE symbol, or you just get lucky and actually drop it on someone blindly. Hitting a player as they go back into stealth is a whole other story.

 

Unlike Vangaurds, Stealth Scan literally only reveals stealth on Commandos and that's only if someone is dumb enough to walk into it. Did you know Vanguarda (tank specc'd?) get a cc on Stealth Scan?! Wow I wish we had that!

 

 

But please do list some "disadvantages" to stealth, I think having a personal delete-anyone button is pretty dang strong and the ability to bypass all scouts and node/objective defenders... because PvP is almost entirely objective based.

 

 

Next you're going to tell me Heavy Armor is actually meaningful in PvP!

[chillshock]

I had to chuckle a bit at the "kite and 2350+" comments.

Not because it would be bs, but because he's right.

 

And honestly... if you play a (mobile) ranged class in a mmorpg in pvp and don't keep moving unless rooted...

DO NOT COMPLAIN.

 

Now stealthers that root,stun,mezz and burst you... yeah... I find them a valid threat. But then again... what if they weren't?

 

But I wholeheartedly agree that there are way too many ranged stuns, slows and roots in the game... *cough* I play mostly (non stealthy) melee, though. So yeah... I'm biased, too.

[yoomazir]

Tbh I think a lot of mercs/mandos veterans have given up on this AC, BW is quick to modify certains skills for certains classes (Warrior) but if prone to forget that a Mercenary/Commando class exists...

[chillshock]

BW is quick to modify certains skills for certains classes (Warrior)

 

What? I don't even... HUH? Did I miss something? Quick? Are you referring to the year old question about survivability that turned juggernauts (not all warriors) into not-simple-victims-anymore? Or the rebalancing downwards a week later? Or that Undying Rage change that made a cooldown ... well... 'hardly ever usefull'?

 

Naw, "Quick" doesn't really discribe it. Also: They first have to filter the Whine... because... it's a lot of 'didn't really understand it, yet."

[Cordorian]

Omg stealth QQ again.

Seems a regular pattern in here right.

 

Ok actually mandos are one of the harder classes for a stealther to 1v1, especially if they arent brain dead.

 

Sins are totally screwed by e-net, which can't be cleansed by shroud, doesnt allow phase walk or combat stealth and basically forces you to use your breaker if you dont wanna die within seconds.

 

Especially Deception is quite prone to be kited and decent mandos can do it well enough to insure again most damage deception can pull of (except recklessness pop lightning everything 10m max)

Don't break spike or low slash but definitely break electrocute. Also if you see them popping recklessness, hit a defensive CD immediatly. Denying there initially burst is crucial against deception. They actually dont have much else to after after this .

 

I am just starting play madness sometimes, so no judgement on this spec, but it is not really a stunning ganking spec anyway. Hold the line on creeping terror at least a priori makes sense, but yeah didnt go much after off nodes in this spec so much yet, and that one merc i met there once was just too terrible to give any evidence for judgment.

 

against concealment operatives you can already turn the tide a the very beginning. Since Hidden Strike now only roots you, Hold the Line ftw. Operative now have only one hard stun, which in all fairness you can break, since there is not much they can put after that. Again e-net screws them over pretty badly, since they tend to be a lot even more than sins, they depend on evading stuff and hit without being hit.

 

Just from personal experience if find decent madness sorcs and decent mandos among the hardest classes to play against as a stealther.

 

If you get ganked by two stealthers, well it happens and there is nothing you can really do about it. But two vengeance juggs or carnage marauders, or basically everything would most likely have had the same effect.

[Adovir]

What? I don't even... HUH? Did I miss something? Quick? Are you referring to the year old question about survivability that turned juggernauts (not all warriors) into not-simple-victims-anymore? Or the rebalancing downwards a week later? Or that Undying Rage change that made a cooldown ... well... 'hardly ever usefull'?

 

Naw, "Quick" doesn't really discribe it. Also: They first have to filter the Whine... because... it's a lot of 'didn't really understand it, yet."

 

Or nerfing smash and making carnage rng from hell? Or is he referring to the buff to anni, which they said needed to do more damage because it was ment to do the most. Or the buff to vengence so they had a reliable rotation(the way they did it was meh, IMO bumping the rng from 45-75% would have been good enough).

 

Stealth Scan reveals stealth... if someone is dumb enough to blunder into the AOE symbol, or you just get lucky and actually drop it on someone blindly. Hitting a player as they go back into stealth is a whole other story.

 

Unlike Vangaurds, Stealth Scan literally only reveals stealth on Commandos and that's only if someone is dumb enough to walk into it. Did you know Vanguarda (tank specc'd?) get a cc on Stealth Scan?! Wow I wish we had that!

 

 

But please do list some "disadvantages" to stealth, I think having a personal delete-anyone button is pretty dang strong and the ability to bypass all scouts and node/objective defenders... because PvP is almost entirely objective based.

 

 

Next you're going to tell me Heavy Armor is actually meaningful in PvP!

 

Really so because 1 spec, 4 tiers up its tree has a two point talent which roots stealth for 2 seconds, theirs is OP and completely different than yours? Wow, just wow btw you're trashing on stealth scan right now so it wouldn't matter if you had that because you have just been saying that it's a worthless move that you will only catch idiots in.

 

A personal delete anyone button? You mean our burst? You know the thing that is very unreliable because it would require us critting on every single ability and requires our target to be so bad as not to break a single CC and use a defensive.

Assassins in full brut min maxed for damage with no crit, assuming that they crit on everything is only roughly, 8k discharge, mid 6kshock(and another 50% if chain shock procs), maul for 8-9k(the 12+k is as frequent as a HSM) and roughly 8k for assassinate.

Operatives who do not have nearly the same reliability on their burst as an assassin is roughly. High 6-mid 7k on hidden strike(requires stealth) back stab roughly the same, explosive probe 6k laceration 5k, shiv 4k. Throw in relic procs to both situation if you will but you have to be really lucky as either to have every skill crit.

Now let's look at mercs/mandos. Grav round(tracer missile) 5-6k, full auto(unload) 4-5k per tick(16-20k), high impact bolt(railshot) 6ks normally, demo round(heatseaker) 7-8k. All that damage from a range. The only advantage a stealthed has is the ability to start first the sequence in a hope that they can finish, but if you were a good player, knock back ,e-net, powersurge tm on the move, railshot on the move, HSM, tm to finish power surge, interrupt immune unload(+8sec 70% slow). They catch up to you and hit you with the hard stun then break that rocket punch root them HO run away or use e-dart. If you have been mainimg as a merc/Mando and know less than me when I've been leisurely playing for about 1-2 months, read my sig.

[Zoom_VI]

I interpreted his "backstab" comment as being a generalization of stealth gameplay and not the operative ability.. Sure you can be pedantic and think he was only talking about operatives. Either way, meh...

 

And assassins only have two hardstuns of 2s and 4s duration. Subtract out the GCD penalty and you are looking at only 0.5s and 2.5s effective stun duration.

 

Honestly guys there is not much CC at all in this game.