Why I quit (parked) my PVP Commando and Merc

[Tellenn]

Seems to me that the real issue is the classes that have all these stuns and I think it's partially due to the advanced class system. In most games the majority of cc is done by tanks offensively and squishy healers defensively, dps are generally there for dps and heal debuffing. In swtor all classes including stealth and heavy burst classes have a plethora of stuns. It seems like this is due to them having adv. classes and multiple roles within those adv. classes so they need to have abilities for all these roles including tank and healer amount of stuns in dps.

[giantworm]

Biggest problem with the Mando / Merc is that there is no way to dps under pressure and i mean real dps, not some half *** abilities that barely do any damage. I have a PT and in ranked I can always do at least my hitpoints worth of damage before I am destroyed by a focused melee train, sometimes If i get a lucky peel I might even survive long enough to down a dpser and have my team clean up.

 

My merc by comparison gets interrupted way too much and even with 2 free tracers I can't use a single unload or follow up on the damage. So on average I can do maybe 20K damage before I am destroyed. Both classes have similar defensive cooldowns and I enjoy playing the PT way more due to the ability to actually do damage, instead of being near useless. Healing tree is ok, but both dps trees are near useless with any pressure. I have played this game from release and have 55 toons for every class except a sorc and no other class has the same issues.

[Kunda]

In a nutshell, I die for 2 reasons.

A) The players on my side sucked balls

B) The resolve mechanic favors heavily the gank and stun approach.

 

You died from reason A in both instances. You shouldn't be surviving 3v1's if you're getting no peels or support.

[JackNader]

No I died for both reasons A and B.

 

Look.. this isn't hard to understand.

 

3 players leap to me.. 2 ravage 1 chokes. In that instance, my hydraullics are taken off the board. My reactive shield is taken off the board. My defense chance means dick, my CC breaker also means absolutely dick because I need a FULL resolve bar for it to be effective. I can't even pop an adrenal or hit my healing stim. What have I got to defend myself? I've got all these cooldowns which are intended to extend my life and not one of them is worth a damn in the above scenario.

 

If Bioware changed one thing and made the CC breaker actually mean something... all those defensive cooldowns come back on line and my class can function how it was intended to be played.

Edited August 8, 2014 by JackNader

[chillshock]

Even if they had seperated Stun&CC and Burst damage into different specs / classes...

 

The problem isn't 1on1. It's in battles: When CC by anyone can hit anyone.

You get stunned and rooted and stunned by someone else... slowed and rooted while whitebared... and knocked back again and again... There is PLENTY of cc by SOMEONE to go around. In theory resolve makes this bearable. But the fight right now is different.

 

So what needs to be done? Does anything need to be done?

 

I think that:

Resolve needs to be more prominent and more effective: easier to get and harder to decline (refreshing on stun that hits the whitebar.... stuff like that).

Knockbacks and Roots should be affected by whitebar (duration/effectiveness reduced)

 

PS:

if they time it in a way that all 3 perfectly time their attacks to: 2 ravage and 1 stun... that's well played and I hope for ANY character that at least ONE of his teammates is there with a nice AE-CC to place all three of them in a mezz.

ANYONE getting jumped by 3 coordinated players is going to die... FAST.

 

Altho... In that situation, I'd probably stunbreak anyways (you are going to die if not) and either use an AE mezz to screw their ravage (probably +all the offensive cooldowns) or at least electrodart the stunner and **** before the last tick of ravage. Or - as mentioned - get help. Because there is no real reason for anyone to easily survive an attack like that.

[JackNader]

The way resolve is presently in this game, adding resolve to roots and snares would create a situation where everyone is running around fully resolved all the time. Virtually every class has snares attached to core damage dealing abilities.

The system itself needs to be scrapped and redesigned.

 

And yes, those 3 DPS were in the same guild... they were likely on coms. They were obviously having a discussion about what happened in the first round as they opted to take the highest threat target off the board first. This was smart play and what I would have done if I was in their situation.

[chillshock]

The way resolve is presently in this game, adding resolve to roots and snares would create a situation where everyone is running around fully resolved all the time. Virtually every class has snares attached to core damage dealing abilities.

The system itself needs to be scrapped and redesigned.

 

And yes, those 3 DPS were in the same guild... they were likely on coms. They were obviously having a discussion about what happened in the first round as they opted to take the highest threat target off the board first. This was smart play and what I would have done if I was in their situation.

 

And there we have the problem:

Basically what you said is: Everyone is basically cc'ed all the time: (slow,root,stun,knock,mezz).

And then people wonder why so many think it's overdone.

 

May I suggest: remove all auto-cc from all abilities that have a different primary function and place them on seperate abilites:

• No more slow on 'hit with attack in basic rotation'
  (Lightning =/=> slow. IGC =/=> slow, Rupture =/=> slow, and so on)
  
• No more root when knocked back, slowed, ravaged,...
  
• Never combine any serious damage with root, stun or slow in a single ability.
  

CC-Break has to be used deliberately. Maybe cc should be the same.

[DerTaran]

I stopped playing arenas as well, for the same reasons. The commando/mercenary is just not viable for solo arenas.

At the moment, we are target number one in every game and either we are dying in seconds stunned or we are escaping with 75% of our live gone.

 

With a healer and/or a tank it might be different, I agree. The problem would not be one, if more people would help us to survive the first minute of a game, but hey it is solo ranked, nobody cares.

 

The regular 8 vs 8 warzones in comparison are working very well nowadays, but as long as survivability of our toons is so limited, I won't play 4 vs 4 anymore, and if you are hones, who of you don't think "OMG, we are loosing" if you see a commando or a mercenary in your team?

Edited August 8, 2014 by DerTaran

[Warlord_Maliken]

To the original post:

 

Would you still play your mercenary if you had a jetpack disenage ability? (you fly back XX yards for 1.5 sec, gaining immunity to all CC effects while in the air. XX sec cooldown).

 

I think this would solve the issue of boredom and crude victimization. If it would make the mercenary overpowered, simply move #'s around to balance the equation (h.o. lasts X seconds less).

 

Anyway, what do you think sir? I understand why you are parking your merc.

[TezMoney]

And there we have the problem:

Basically what you said is: Everyone is basically cc'ed all the time: (slow,root,stun,knock,mezz).

And then people wonder why so many think it's overdone.

 

May I suggest: remove all auto-cc from all abilities that have a different primary function and place them on seperate abilites:

• No more slow on 'hit with attack in basic rotation'
  (Lightning =/=> slow. IGC =/=> slow, Rupture =/=> slow, and so on)
  
• No more root when knocked back, slowed, ravaged,...
  
• Never combine any serious damage with root, stun or slow in a single ability.
  

CC-Break has to be used deliberately. Maybe cc should be the same.

 

This sounds like a melee dps's wet dream. How does this system benefit ranged in any way?

Edited August 8, 2014 by TezMoney

[Thermisticles]

Firstly, I'd like to thank everybody for contributing their ideas. It's nice to know i'm not alone in my sentiments, and hearing counter arguments has also been constructive.

 

In relation to the question put to me recently;

 

To the original post:

 

Would you still play your mercenary if you had a jetpack disenage ability? (you fly back XX yards for 1.5 sec, gaining immunity to all CC effects while in the air. XX sec cooldown).

 

I assume it would also serve as a cc break.

 

Such a mechanic as you've described would serve as an option to repeated cc locks (which in essence would mean that the Mercmando would have 2 cc breaks).If you did not intend for this function to serve as a cc break, then using it, would be when i'm most likely at 30% or less health.

 

My concern is that this solution can fall under the 'I bought myself a few seconds before i die' label, in the sense that once I land again, opponents can close in and finish the job (yes I can run etc. etc, but ultimately, i'm still on the defensive, and can not reply with serious dps output).

 

The cc immunity described is whilst flying through the air only. Once on land, stealthers can close and dps with impunity again.

 

On a side note, I can see issues arising, if you have a wall to your back (which you might, if you're concerned about stealth).

 

I think this would solve the issue of boredom and crude victimization. If it would make the mercenary overpowered, simply move #'s around to balance the equation (h.o. lasts X seconds less).

 

Anyway, what do you think sir? I understand why you are parking your merc.

 

I've never been bored of the Mercmando classes. It's just frustrating being consistently shut down so completely against stealth classes. I expect to lose fights,..but I also expect an opportunity to put up a good fight of my own. Against stealth, i'm always on the defensive (in terms of movement, and greatly diminished dps output).

 

Reading this thread gave me one idea.

 

Take away chain stunning.

 

Once you are stunned, you suffer it's effect, but can not be stunned again for X amount of time. So chain stunning is no longer an option. CC break, if on cool-down, is actually useful. Stealthers still get off healthy damage to me, but now i can at least act! Diminished dps output is still an issue, but that's probably also true now for the stealthers (don't know, never played a stealth class - please correct me if i'm wrong. If so, dps output on the run need to be addressed too).

 

 

Cheers,

 

Thermisticles

[xyrmagus]

I see a lot of complaints from a hard "caster" Pov with Merc/Mano and Sorc/Sage. How do gunslingers fare in the current world of stealth stun ownage? Are they a big CC offender? (Leveling one up now, trying to understand the strengths/weaknesses).

[FinalArbiter]

I see a lot of complaints from a hard "caster" Pov with Merc/Mano and Sorc/Sage. How do gunslingers fare in the current world of stealth stun ownage? Are they a big CC offender? (Leveling one up now, trying to understand the strengths/weaknesses).

 

As I mentioned in an earlier post, Gunslingers/Snipers are great at handling stealth and melee characters in general. Passive immunity to interrupts, abilty pushback, dashes, pulls while in cover. A sorc or merc can get grappled and roflpwned by any decent powertech, but that won't happen to a sniper with good reflexes and awareness. They also have the passive that increases their stealth detection range gradually, though it can be somewhat countered by Sneak/Blackout. They also have roots, slows, knockbacks, stuns, instant mezz, and at high levels, they have an instant distance creator in Covered Escape which is on a 20 second cooldown. Combine that with 20 seconds of Entrench on 1 minute cooldown, 16-20 second cooldown Shield Probe and a potential 30 second hard stun cooldown if you're in Lethality tree, and you've got one very tough class to take down.

 

 

There's actually some defensive stuff I'm missing but you get the idea. Slingers and Snipers are a great 1v1 class and have the tools at their disposal to counter stealth/melee classes with great ease compared to Mercs and they're also a bit better than Sorcs in this regard.

 

The thing is though...in most yolo queue games, you face people who aren't exactly the best. So with a Sorc or Merc you can still faceroll them and easily top the damage charts in warzones. But at the highest levels of play where people use all their CC, interrupts, and rotations effectively, a Sniper will very likely outshine them.

[DerTaran]

I see a lot of complaints from a hard "caster" Pov with Merc/Mano and Sorc/Sage. How do gunslingers fare in the current world of stealth stun ownage? Are they a big CC offender? (Leveling one up now, trying to understand the strengths/weaknesses).

If you look at the statistics, gunslinger are doing even wors than commandos.

[anwg]

I've never been bored of the Mercmando classes. It's just frustrating being consistently shut down so completely against stealth classes. I expect to lose fights,..but I also expect an opportunity to put up a good fight of my own. Against stealth, i'm always on the defensive (in terms of movement, and greatly diminished dps output).

 

Well that's the point of stealth classes, they will always have the initiatives in 1v1. You should ask for tips against those specific classes in specific situations instead of "give me god mode".

 

Once you are stunned, you suffer it's effect, but can not be stunned again for X amount of time. So chain stunning is no longer an option. CC break, if on cool-down, is actually useful. Stealthers still get off healthy damage to me, but now i can at least act! Diminished dps output is still an issue, but that's probably also true now for the stealthers (don't know, never played a stealth class - please correct me if i'm wrong. If so, dps output on the run need to be addressed too).

 

This is already in the game in the shape of either cooldowns (all hard stuns have them) or resolve.

Edited August 8, 2014 by anwg

[xyrmagus]

If you look at the statistics, gunslinger are doing even wors than commandos.

 

This is for arenas right? At least for now I'm more interested in WZ prospects (I know these aren't "hardcore" PvP).

[DerTaran]

This is for arenas right? At least for now I'm more interested in WZ prospects (I know these aren't "hardcore" PvP).

Yes, this is for arenas. I'm not complaining about the status of commandos in regular 8 vs 8 warzones (and as far as I understood the OP is talking about arenas as well), in fact we were never stronger.

[General_Aldo]

I can say that commando/merc are completely viable in regs. So don't complain about those.

 

Also, I know for certain that commando/merc healing is viable in solo rank if you are decent. (I can't speak for the dps)

 

Honestly, commando/merc have a HUGE learning curve and 95% of players just aren't cut out for it. I have seen LESS THAN 5 commando/mercs that utilize the class to its full potential. (Some of them have quit).

 

This class just has a HUGE learning curve, doesn't matter spec

 

*I would like to see improvement obviously, but there isn't much that needs to be done.*

[Thermisticles]

All I can say, is that at level 55, with so many game hours behind me, I find 'learning curve' to be a flimsy excuse at best.

 

Obviously we can all improve, but sometimes, something is just broke, and you have to wait till it gets fixed.

 

I tried playing the class again after reading the post above.

 

Played 2 matches, which were like day and night.

 

The 1st match was Hutt Ball, in which I initially killed a jedi sentinal. He did not take kindly to that. For the entire match thereafter, it was 'on' between the two of us. The fights were tight, action packed, dynamic (covering the 3 levels of the Hutt Ball arena), and stretched our resources and cunning to the limits; buying time for cool downs, employing various stuns, knock backs, electronet, Jedi Jumping, chocking, shields, the whole lot.

With Lightlsabres flashing and blasters smoking, there was risk, there was drama, allegiances were tested, and in adversity, against all hope, love was found, and suddenly imperiled. With the Star Wars theme music in the background and the action of the larger conflict playing out around us, the fate of the galaxy hinging on who would be victorious, , we clashed time and time again. Desperation, and resolve, mixed with fear and adrenalin, resulted in victory for...well, ok, maybe i'm taking it a bit far (Garrada the Hutt was certainly non plussed), but you get my point. It was just fantastic. Everything one comes to expect from pvp.

 

The second game, we had just captured a node, the team was moving off to protect a second node (civil war), when suddenly - back stabbed, stunned, (I targeted opponent at this point), hit, hit (cc's break now off cool down), stunned again - by second stealth that had been waiting cloaked (after using my cc break) , hit,..dead. I died 16 times that match as the 2 stealthers farmed me the entire game.

 

Your honor, I rest my case.

 

No, just no. Mercmando parked until the issue is resolved. If it was just a once off every once in a while, I could live with it. But the stealthers have our number. Mercmandos are easy meat v's stealth, and everybody knows it.

 

Not looking for a 'win button',..looking for an option to fight back.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Thermisticles

[csant]

I understand where you are coming from about multiple stuns... and resolve has to work better. In its current state it does NOT.

 

But, how do you do against 1 stealther? because lets say stuns are on dr... doesn't matter you will still die to two players. Name me one class that can handle 2 stealthers? If it bothers you so much get some friends to play with you and turn those 1v2's into 2v2's... 3v2's. I love to pvp on multiple classes and 99% alone... if I get zerg. I just rez and continue on.

[Ashwinn]

Mercs are stronk, especially in ranked.

[Thermisticles]

I understand where you are coming from about multiple stuns... and resolve has to work better. In its current state it does NOT.

 

But, how do you do against 1 stealther? because lets say stuns are on dr... doesn't matter you will still die to two players. Name me one class that can handle 2 stealthers? If it bothers you so much get some friends to play with you and turn those 1v2's into 2v2's... 3v2's. I love to pvp on multiple classes and 99% alone... if I get zerg. I just rez and continue on.

 

Correct, more than likely, against 2 players I would die. But i'll put up a fight also. Make them pay a price. Stealthers get away with killing mercmandos far too easily. For the longest time, I just put up with it. If I bring in friends to 'cover me', i'm a liability to the team. They now have to watch my back, and as a resource, another payer has to stick by me, rather than going out there to achieve the pvp objectives. Even if I thought they would agree, I wouldn't ask. The mercmando class has an obvious flaw against stealth. They need either better detection, or better defenses against sneak attacks and/or burst damage.

 

Since mercmandos need fixing, i've been thinking of something like a powertech - do they last any longer against stealth? If so, why?

 

Cheers,

 

Thermisticles

[Thermisticles]

Mercs are stronk, especially in ranked.

 

How do they mitigate stealth attacks in your experience?

Edited August 9, 2014 by Thermisticles

[JackNader]

PT's are more resilient. They are one of the few classes in this game that have been in pretty good shape since launch. They are also good at any level.

[DerTaran]

Mercs are stronk, especially in ranked.

No there are not, in ranked they are the second wors class of all.

 

No, just no. Mercmando parked until the issue is resolved. If it was just a once off every once in a while, I could live with it. But the stealthers have our number. Mercmandos are easy meat v's stealth, and everybody knows it.

For regulars mercs and commandos are doing fine nowadays, you just need to concentrate on the objectives and you shouldn't too much care if you die or not.

 

BTW, commandos are definetly not the right class to defend a node, but if you have to do it, your only job is it, to first shout for help and than to interrupt one capture. If you are guarding around 25 meters away from the node this is always possible (against one stealther).

Edited August 10, 2014 by DerTaran