Vanguard // Powertechs Top 3 Answers!

[OlosBC]

A little further expansion on this thought, when you go full 36 AP build, the extra talents you take for PVE that are not damage are at least USEFUL to PVE content (all around damage reduction). You then get 8 points for the tank tree to grab ALL the DPS increase talents, and 2 points in the Pyro tree to grab ALL the important DPS talents. Leaving you with 0 DPS increasing talents left out on a full AP build.

 

I don't think this is clear enough to the devs on the flaw of Pyro. You are WASTING points on your talent tree to get to 36, points that in NO WAY help you in PVE content, are forced to skip out on points from the first 2 tiers of the other two trees. When you look from a Pyro perspective, there are 16 points total which could be allocated in the other trees which increase your damage, yet you only have 10 to allocate if you go a full 36 point build... So why would anyone WANT to sacrifice points for non-dps increasing talents in the Pyro tree to get to the top, on a lackluster top ability, when I can forgo all of that and just stick 16 points across the other two trees?

 

All of this.

[Ottoattack]

A little further expansion on this thought, when you go full 36 AP build, the extra talents you take for PVE that are not damage are at least USEFUL to PVE content (all around damage reduction). You then get 8 points for the tank tree to grab ALL the DPS increase talents, and 2 points in the Pyro tree to grab ALL the important DPS talents. Leaving you with 0 DPS increasing talents left out on a full AP build.

 

I don't think this is clear enough to the devs on the flaw of Pyro. You are WASTING points on your talent tree to get to 36, points that in NO WAY help you in PVE content, are forced to skip out on points from the first 2 tiers of the other two trees. When you look from a Pyro perspective, there are 16 points total which could be allocated in the other trees which increase your damage, yet you only have 10 to allocate if you go a full 36 point build... So why would anyone WANT to sacrifice points for non-dps increasing talents in the Pyro tree to get to the top, on a lackluster top ability, when I can forgo all of that and just stick 16 points across the other two trees?

 

Good points raised indeed. I am curios if the devs are still reading this post or is its in their archives now

[VassagoOmega]

How does any of this help tanks?

[AscendentReality]

I don't know about PvP, but in PvE, if anyone is disputing PT tank being worse than the other two is simply a complete joke. All the passive mitigaiton you receive, the range, and the kiting make them very attractive in end game raid enviroments.

For example, when we first downed NM DG. We did it with PT tanks, who kited for the majority of the fight, in fact, after we checked parses, our pt tanks took just a little more damage in the entire fight than our previous day attempt with two jug tanks for just phase 1.

 

As for the PT dps, on my first toon, i was a PT dps, and I still actively play him and gear him. I've gotten to know some good PT dps in raids. The numbers they put out on add fights is incredible. Their numbers in actual fights is not much lower than marauders and snipers. With that said, they are tankier than other dps, in fights like titan 6, dread guard, operator, thrasher snipers, cartel warlords. when there is unavoidable damage going out, or aoes. They take much less damage than sorcs. For example, the grenade in NM titan 6. it would smash sorcs for 20k or more damage. On a PT dps? I've seen as low as 4k. With the new way NM cartel warlords is setup, when you inevitably take that constant stabbing from Garr, which would hit 6k per hit for 20 seconds straight on a marauder. It would hit for 4k or less on a AP PT. (he stuns you as he stabs you)

Is PT dps fully balanced? No, but they are a whole lot closer than what people is giving credit for. It's mainly a skill issue that relates to a lot of these class complaints. For example, there are people like trublood who hit over 3k on a dummy with PT dps, and parsed in top 50 for each and every boss fight.

 

My only concern is - Are these new buffs in 2.4 worth this indirect nerf to hybrid. It feels like they were somewhat conservative with this buff.

[Zoom_VI]

I don't know about PvP, but in PvE, if anyone is disputing PT tank being worse than the other two is simply a complete joke. All the passive mitigaiton you receive, the range, and the kiting make them very attractive in end game raid enviroments.

Both kelsara and cihpas (spelling?) can easily keep up with vg tanks, being better at kiting does very little to bosses that are immune to all control effects.

Range? What does range matter? all tanks are melee period, the only good thing is the range taunt has a lower radius so it can be used as a second taunt without worrying about taunting something else.

Also in case you didn't know, the juggernaut's passive mitigation profile is almost as good as the vanguards, whilst the jug brind three times as many cooldowns. Not to mention both Sins and Juggs have cheesing mechanic, which vanguards completely lack. (did you know that doom can be reflected?)

 

For example, when we first downed NM DG. We did it with PT tanks, who kited for the majority of the fight, in fact, after we checked parses, our pt tanks took just a little more damage in the entire fight than our previous day attempt with two jug tanks for just phase 1.

Keywords, PT tanks took more damage than the jugs. If one tank class takes less damage than all the others, then that tank will be the choice tank period all other concerns are negligible compared to that.

The fact that you downed it with Pt just means the player's behind the Pt where better than those behind the Juggs or some other factor that you didn't include.

[ZeroPlus]

Keywords, PT tanks took more damage than the jugs. If one tank class takes less damage than all the others, then that tank will be the choice tank period all other concerns are negligible compared to that.

The fact that you downed it with Pt just means the player's behind the Pt where better than those behind the Juggs or some other factor that you didn't include.

 

Zoom_VI I get the feeling that you didn't really understand what AscendentReality was saying.

 

Here is what you quoted again:

For example, when we first downed NM DG. We did it with PT tanks, who kited for the majority of the fight, in fact, after we checked parses, our pt tanks took just a little more damage in the entire fight than our previous day attempt with two jug tanks for just phase 1.

 

Re-read it. Do it again.

 

AscendentReality is NOT saying that the PT took more damage. He is saying that they took less damage. Here... let me add some emphasis...

... our pt tanks took just a little more damage in the entire fight than our previous day attempt with two jug tanks for just phase 1.

 

Funnily enough though, now that that has been cleared up, PTs are actually, according to you (I quote: "If one tank class takes less damage than all the others, then that tank will be the choice tank period all other concerns are negligible compared to that"), the choice tank. Period!

[DarthEshla]

anyone else feel like they don't want 3 or 4 AC's played and are trying to herd us all into playing the 4 AC's they actually buff and work on.

[Sardonyyx]

Today I learned "many ranged options" means 3.

 

These answers are just garbage. Look at the sniper/slinger answers, they actually responded like an adult. We get stuck with a whiney ***** who probably doesn't even play the game and thinks all will be well with the patch. This unfortunately is not the case. Downloaded the pts just so I could play my favorite toon again, only to find he STILL doesn't preform as well as any other adv class.

 

Careless response to well thought out questions. This is pathetic Bioware, just laughable, why even bother to answer if you're going to tell us to QQ? That's my question.

 

Also the tone of the answers is so *****y. It's not our fault that you guys mess up this class with every patch, get your **** together guys, this is sad.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

Today I learned "many ranged options" means 3.

 

These answers are just garbage. Look at the sniper/slinger answers, they actually responded like an adult. We get stuck with a whiney ***** who probably doesn't even play the game and thinks all will be well with the patch. This unfortunately is not the case. Downloaded the pts just so I could play my favorite toon again, only to find he STILL doesn't preform as well as any other adv class.

 

Careless response to well thought out questions. This is pathetic Bioware, just laughable, why even bother to answer if you're going to tell us to QQ? That's my question.

 

Also the tone of the answers is so *****y. It's not our fault that you guys mess up this class with every patch, get your **** together guys, this is sad.

 

I hope you've read the responses since this and how they've adjusted things on the PTS. The answers did suck, but they did react pretty well after.

[Zoom_VI]

Zoom_VI I get the feeling that you didn't really understand what AscendentReality was saying.

 

Re-read it. Do it again.

 

AscendentReality is NOT saying that the PT took more damage. He is saying that they took less damage. Here... let me add some emphasis...

 

My mistake then. However I now really want to know what AscendentReality's definition of a "little more damage" is. Or if his is similar to mine, then *** was wrong with his guild's jug tanks, as what he was implying would put VG tank's so insanely far ahead of jugs and Sins. I mean really a vanguard only takes a little more damage for an entire fight than jugs take for a third of the fight?!?! It's rediculus and is basically saying every theorycrafter and pretty much all previous evidence on tank balance is absolutely backwards and wrong.

 

For the record my guild runs a guardian and Van tank, and on that some fight, both took nearly the same damage, but guardians have way better utility, cooldowns, and unlike VGs have a cheesing dcd.

 

 

Funnily enough though, now that that has been cleared up, PTs are actually, according to you (I quote: "If one tank class takes less damage than all the others, then that tank will be the choice tank period all other concerns are negligible compared to that"), the choice tank. Period!

 

Given the extreme discrepancies in AscendentReality's example I don't think you can fling that back to me. Also, guardians are considerably less likely to die at any given point than the other tanks, so again why bring a vanguard?

 

And don't even get me started on how inferior vangaurds are to guardians in PvP.

[Sardonyyx]

I hope you've read the responses since this and how they've adjusted things on the PTS. The answers did suck, but they did react pretty well after.

 

 

They may have reacted differently, but only because people raged.

 

Even so, the changes aren't monumental, and a simple rollback would fix pyro/assault, the defensive changes are nice, however, I don't see why the dont make chaff flare work the way it does for Arsenal/Gunnery spec, in it that it absorbs 2 attacks. Little better odds at surviving a crucial hit in that. To be honest, KO was much better pre-2.0.

[starwarsfansix]

So guys, how does Tactics does on the PTS? Are we competitive with the other DPS now? I read parses somewhere that marauders and a sniper AC, don't remember the name, made around 3200 DPS and so did the hybrid so now that the hybrid got nerfed, how do full tactics/full assault do? I also noticed that another sniper AC made around 3600 DPS and I thought that was a bit extreme, but I have never played a sniper so what do I know.

[xXsgtstinkerXx]

Tactics is still not competitive. Fully geared out vans were able to pull a little over 2.8k which is much less than the current hyrbid is pulling, and assault just sucks. Yeah the Sniper Engineering spec does the most on the dummy, and so far has done over 3.7k which I would say is a bit extreme. But yes vangaurds are getting a good nerf to overall dps in 2.4. Edited September 21, 2013 by xXsgtstinkerXx

[Pilgrim_Grey]

They may have reacted differently, but only because people raged.

 

Even so, the changes aren't monumental, and a simple rollback would fix pyro/assault, the defensive changes are nice, however, I don't see why the dont make chaff flare work the way it does for Arsenal/Gunnery spec, in it that it absorbs 2 attacks. Little better odds at surviving a crucial hit in that. To be honest, KO was much better pre-2.0.

 

I dunno, it's hard to tell what's going on in their heads. I don't get what's going on with the class rep stuff, for instance. That said, if you only look at the original answers, that was a long time ago and I don't think they intended for them to come across as they did. It's important to note what has happened since then.

 

As for a "rollback," they're not going to do that because Vanguards were in such a good place before 2.0, probably too good. They botched it in response, of course, but they at least are now moving things in a positive direction. VGs are better on test than they are now, and there should be data to argue for what (if anything) more is needed. I haven't really seen enough numbers to know what to say, though, just general talk which doesn't tell me too much. If I went by some posters, I'd say DPS Shadows were doing better than DPS Scoundrels, and you know that can't be true if you look at their skill setups and the numbers.

 

I'm not much of a numbers person, just an analyzer since I'm fairly casual with my game time.

[starwarsfansix]

Tactics is still not competitive. Fully geared out vans were able to pull a little over 2.8k which is much less than the current hyrbid is pulling, and assault just sucks. Yeah the Sniper Engineering spec does the most on the dummy, and so far has done over 3.7k which I would say is a bit extreme. But yes vangaurds are getting a good nerf to overall dps in 2.4.

 

Were vanguards that good pre-2.0? I was very far away from 50 at that time and I didn't get the chance to experience end game content.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

Were vanguards that good pre-2.0? I was very far away from 50 at that time and I didn't get the chance to experience end game content.

 

Be careful of those engineering numbers. I don't recall where Keyboard Ninja broke some of those parses down, but some of those engineering/saboteur ones are increased by using Scatter Bombs with hightail it on the dummy--even though that's not going to happen in a practical situation.

 

You'll have to look things up, but I think the best parses that aren't up to some funny business when targeting a dummy are in the low 3000s for damage.

[xXsgtstinkerXx]

The devs definitely need to do more to vans than what they did on the pts 2.4. Tactics and Assault got small buffs, but the only actually viable spec, the hybrid, got nerfed. The hybrid still did more dps than the other two specs on the pts, and I'll probably still continue to use it although it will be a nerf to current dps. If the 2.4 changes are final then it'd probably be wise to switch to a sentinel or slinger, classes that have utility that the entire raid can benefit from. I guess it's balanced because we got Op 30 meter range.. Oh wait they already took our range away and 2.4 makes plasma cell proc from 4 meter stockstrike. /sigh Edited September 22, 2013 by xXsgtstinkerXx

[Sardonyyx]

The devs definitely need to do more to vans than what they did on the pts 2.4. Tactics and Assault got small buffs, but the only actually viable spec, the hybrid, got nerfed. The hybrid still did more dps than the other two specs on the pts, and I'll probably still continue to use it although it will be a nerf to current dps. If the 2.4 changes are final then it'd probably be wise to switch to a sentinel or slinger, classes that have utility that the entire raid can benefit from. I guess it's balanced because we got Op 30 meter range.. Oh wait they already took our range away and 2.4 makes plasma cell proc from 4 meter stockstrike. /sigh

 

 

yeah, but remember our wonderful ranged options? lol

 

pyro will never be the same...

[Ottoattack]

Were vanguards that good pre-2.0? I was very far away from 50 at that time and I didn't get the chance to experience end game content.

 

Pre 2.0 Pyro/assault was one of the top dpsing specs in PvE and was probably favorable in fights that require mobility. PvP, pyro/assault had the strongest burst, not necessarily in output, but in the difficulty of it being mitigated or stopped. Pyro/assault was a glass cannon, high damage, difficult to interrupt, but easy to kill. After expansion, wither its 2.0 or 2.4, pyro/assault is was and apparently will continue to be dead spec. PvE wise, is one of the lowest parsing specs. PvP wise is nothing more than a "snarer," All you will do is slow the targets. Burst is avg., sustained is avg. and survivability is avg. Add to that much of the damage is dot based, which healers will constantly remove, making your avg. damage less reliable. You do not bring anything to the table except spammable snare.

 

Also, the change in degsus is semi useless, who wants defense chance in WZs when 70-80% the damage, if not more, is yellow damage that can't be dodged (kinetic, internal, force and aoe). It only applies to white damage. That is pathetic. Change to KO. Meh. It should be okay for arenas as the name of the game is to survive, yet again, I want to use defensive CDs while I am getting focus fired at reasonable amount of health, not 5% from execute. Its not a total waste, but it is not that useful.

 

The only redeeming changes in 2.4 are the tactics/AP ones. Stronger PFT and top tier skill is defiantly a big plus to burst. Class also has strong survivability, good sustained damage and great mobility.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Ottoattack

[mfourcustom]

Were vanguards that good pre-2.0? I was very far away from 50 at that time and I didn't get the chance to experience end game content.

 

No vanguards were not really "THAT GOOD" lol we were good at burst dps probably one of the best next to smashers but thats it we lacked EVERYTHING *********** else.

 

Once our range was nerfed which it should have been we were a true melee glass cannon unlike knights who bring burst and great cool downs lol

 

we were not really that good hence why when they took our burst away everyone left because at that point what the **** were we good at?

 

Nothing and we still are good at nothing and we forever be good at nothing.

Edited September 24, 2013 by mfourcustom

[T-Assassin]

Nothing and we still are good at nothing and we forever be good at nothing.

 

I'm getting the same feeling as well.

 

Whatever "metrics" they are using, concerning DPS, are clearly off. Burst in PvP (which is the definition of DPS, sustained DPS means jack *****) and sustained DPS in PvE (just have a look at ANY DPS leaderboard..OP's, FP's, Dummies) are well below ~5% of top performers.

 

So, nerf IR/IM and buff AP/TD so it equals a DPS wash. Brilliant. DCD's are a step in the right direction. We can live longer while pushing garbage DPS in PvP. If I'm using those DCD's in PvE, forget about it.

 

How difficult can math be?

[mfourcustom]

I'm getting the same feeling as well.

 

Whatever "metrics" they are using, concerning DPS, are clearly off. Burst in PvP (which is the definition of DPS, sustained DPS means jack *****) and sustained DPS in PvE (just have a look at ANY DPS leaderboard..OP's, FP's, Dummies) are well below ~5% of top performers.

 

So, nerf IR/IM and buff AP/TD so it equals a DPS wash. Brilliant. DCD's are a step in the right direction. We can live longer while pushing garbage DPS in PvP. If I'm using those DCD's in PvE, forget about it.

 

How difficult can math be?

 

Bah who knows dude....

 

I honestly believe it comes down to favoritism Knights get buffed and buffed snipers buffed and buffed the trooper/merc class has always been second rate to the devs first they nerf mando/mercs in to the ground way back when than to atone for their sins they kill our class and buff the mando/mercs back up. Even with our buffs to DCD's and tactics/AP we will still be worth jack **** in arena's we will never be close to smashers/snipers ever again unless they roll us back and we burst like we did before 2.0. They killed our class because a good vanguard/powertech could at times stand toe to toe with their beloved snipers, smashers and we could take down op heals. Simple as that.

 

With that said I don't want to ever see 7k ion pulses and 14k hibs when I talk about roll backs people seem to think thats what I want. No Our damage didn't *********** scale with 2.0 we hit like we did before 2.0 while other classes damage scaled. we should be getting 3-4.5 k ion pulses and 6-9k hibs but thats never going to happen. They only reason they gave us buffs to our DCD's was do the the huge up roar here after there stupid *** answers to us on our class questions.

 

If they really wanted to make up for their mistakes they would have scaled us and gave us our burst back. The dcd changes wont help us at all really its still boils down to we don't put out enough burst to live through other classes.

 

 

Its how they want the class to be its their game so fine but playing favorites with classes leads to a pvp scene that we have now. Every team filled with smash, op heals, snipers. Its annoying and it has and is turning people away from the game.

 

Stop sucking the knights/jugs dick bioware and make all classes competitive you **** heads.

[Ottoattack]

I'm getting the same feeling as well.

 

Whatever "metrics" they are using, concerning DPS, are clearly off. Burst in PvP (which is the definition of DPS, sustained DPS means jack *****) and sustained DPS in PvE (just have a look at ANY DPS leaderboard..OP's, FP's, Dummies) are well below ~5% of top performers.

 

So, nerf IR/IM and buff AP/TD so it equals a DPS wash. Brilliant. DCD's are a step in the right direction. We can live longer while pushing garbage DPS in PvP. If I'm using those DCD's in PvE, forget about it.

 

How difficult can math be?

 

Very difficult if you are pulling your numbers from the wrong metrics, which if you read BW responses on most classes questions indicate they are (FPs and dummies for parses. Regular WZs for PvP). As a result, the class balance is off, because there is no basis to balance classes. Add to the problem, if BW thinks that a class is too powerful (say like PT, merc, sorc, ops) they would not try to balance the class, or just nerf 1-2 skills. They just go ahead and nerf it to the ground (pyro PT, CGC nerfed, RS nerfed, TD nerfed and rebounded removed). Then it would take them forever to get the spec going again (merc nerfed to the ground in 1.1 or 1.2 then finally balanced in 2.0 more than a year later).

 

If there is one gripe I have with the game is this. Whoever does the class balance is so disconnected from the game, that you have to make so much noise (this forum) to be even heard.

[paowee]

In lowbie pvp (L34) i find myself doing a lot of damage as Assault. Especially when ion pulse and hib crits >_<. Survivabilty is also great (my bubble) and the 30% cc immunity i find the cooldown to be short enough and its always there when i need it to kite / run away to survive.

 

Does this change in L55 warzones?

[mfourcustom]

In lowbie pvp (L34) i find myself doing a lot of damage as Assault. Especially when ion pulse and hib crits >_<. Survivabilty is also great (my bubble) and the 30% cc immunity i find the cooldown to be short enough and its always there when i need it to kite / run away to survive.

 

Does this change in L55 warzones?

 

why should we spoil it for you......you'll find out the hard way than find yourself rolling another class

 

Thats all i'll say.