8 man NiM thrasher 2773.66 DPS - Ascentrl - Suckafish - Marauder - Carnage - 5/36/5 http://www.torparse.com/a/436958/time/1380077899/1380078190/0/Overview This is done with 75% 168 gear.

The third sniper is an alt, it was literally the first time we've ever had so many snipers. In fact, all contents that we've cleared minus styrak have been done in a variety of compositions since we have a roster of 12-13. Which include merc, sorc, in fact, a lot of our early progression came from 3 melees of , 2 marauders, 1 operative, and 1 sniper. Just sayin

SnV styrak, finally downed it ! 2563.69 DPS - Ascentrl - The Chandrian - Marauder - Carnage - 5/36/5 http://www.torparse.com/a/417094/35/0/Overview

I don't know if i agree with that. Carnage gets double vicious throw under 30%. Even though we get early access, it gets refreshed under 30%, so I don't believe rage/annihilation can do much more under 30. It works like this, if i use vicious throw under 30%, then get gore slaughter proc, my vicious throw is instantly off cooldown to be used again.

Hey! That's rude ! I think it was ranked when i uploaded , Anyways I finally survived from Garr for once X_X 2550.17 DPS - Ascentrl - The Chandrian - Marauder - Carnage - 5/36/5 http://www.torparse.com/a/411105/14/0/Overview

I don't know about PvP, but in PvE, if anyone is disputing PT tank being worse than the other two is simply a complete joke. All the passive mitigaiton you receive, the range, and the kiting make them very attractive in end game raid enviroments. For example, when we first downed NM DG. We did it with PT tanks, who kited for the majority of the fight, in fact, after we checked parses, our pt tanks took just a little more damage in the entire fight than our previous day attempt with two jug tanks for just phase 1. As for the PT dps, on my first toon, i was a PT dps, and I still actively play him and gear him. I've gotten to know some good PT dps in raids. The numbers they put out on add fights is incredible. Their numbers in actual fights is not much lower than marauders and snipers. With that said, they are tankier than other dps, in fights like titan 6, dread guard, operator, thrasher snipers, cartel warlords. when there is unavoidable damage going out, or aoes. They take much less damage than sorcs. For example, the grenade in NM titan 6. it would smash sorcs for 20k or more damage. On a PT dps? I've seen as low as 4k. With the new way NM cartel warlords is setup, when you inevitably take that constant stabbing from Garr, which would hit 6k per hit for 20 seconds straight on a marauder. It would hit for 4k or less on a AP PT. (he stuns you as he stabs you) Is PT dps fully balanced? No, but they are a whole lot closer than what people is giving credit for. It's mainly a skill issue that relates to a lot of these class complaints. For example, there are people like trublood who hit over 3k on a dummy with PT dps, and parsed in top 50 for each and every boss fight. My only concern is - Are these new buffs in 2.4 worth this indirect nerf to hybrid. It feels like they were somewhat conservative with this buff.

8man nm olok 2372.23 DPS - Ascentrl - The Chandrian - Marauder - Carnage - 5/36/5 http://www.torparse.com/a/404532/2/0/Overview

O:, you came back zenod? when?

TFB 8 man NM 2140 DPS - Ascentrl - The Chandrian - Marauder - Carnage - 5/36/5 http://www.torparse.com/a/403131/29/0/Damage+Dealt I cut off the last 10 seconds run off timer from terror's last moments manually because it wouldn't work on the torparse, more bugs ftw. Operative 9 8 man NM 2170.66DPS - Ascentrl - The Chandrian - Marauder - Carnage - 5/36/5 http://www.torparse.com/a/403131/17/0/Damage+Dealt

What should I check for raids, I can't find asation or darvanis in there.

You didn't know that man? Trublood has always carried highest dummy parse , he can hit over 3k now. The issue with hybrid has been simply the heat management can get really bad.

Marauder, easy? Lol, please get this sorc to play one. I want to see what excuses he comes up with.

There is benefits of having a sin tank. Most of the arguments is valid, and I do personally think they deserve a buff. However there is some benefits in carrying one, even in nm progression. While jugs have a few better defensive cooldowns, and one really incredible one in saber reflect. Having extra defensive cooldowns to manage can be beneficial when the boss's damage is spikey and can be anticipated. There are also interesting mechanics that can come with a sin tank, such as not having adds in nm twh (albeit the fight is somewhat of a joke anyways) The point is, it's still viable, could they use a buff, sure. They are most certainly not as desperate as concealment operatives, or deception assassins, which in PvE is just utter trash. Trash beyond trash, the most worthless among trash, no offence, all the power to you if you can clear content even with that handicap. Edit: May I also add, many NM guilds who's had full clears have sin tanks, some sin main tanks. If that isn't enough, from my personal experience in NM mode, the hardest content that was released during the recent operations, would be the un-nerfed NM dreadguards. In which case, drop it like its hoth, the world first on that boss, downed it with a sin tank. It's the same argument people try to throw at marauders and snipers looking at their damage, despite failing to see their own classes have been proven time and time again to be able to DOWN CONTENT. Which is the end goal of any raid. If your looking for total balance, can I agree on sin tank receiving a few buffs here and there? Ya. Please don't go around and say things like it sucks, or it's not viable. If it's been done, and done repeatedly, it's obviously viable. Just because someone lack the skills to pull it off, doesn't mean it's impossible. It's just like someone who will remain unnamed, claimed, un-nerfed DG to be mathematically impossible only to find it dead to a European guild several days later.

At the same time, they have the option to re-roll into another role , if they are no longer capable of doing their given role at this time. In fact, in the nightmare parses thread, A operative who is putting some high parses was once a healer, his raid needed a more competent dps, so he stepped up to be one. Let's assume if he was a marauder or sniper. What choice does he have now beside rerolling or be kicked, or just watch your raid fail longer repeatedly. I think people discount the idea of having multiple roles far too much. On my operative, having that field respec, I can do whatever I want in flashpoints, raids, pvp, whatever it is. On my PT, I can pull enough numbers to easily down any HM content, while it's not in nm progression like my marauder, he is only 69 geared. Too many alt raids, was I able to say, well, our pug is not cutting it, so kick him and grab a dps in here, I'll tank X. The utility of having multiple roles is significant. I don't see how you guys see nothing else but numbers. Hatred don't use snipers. The world first down on un-nerfed DG drop it like its hoth also did it with Jug dps, sorc dps, etc. What does that tell you? That was a "mathematically impossible fight" for DPS check. Yet people downed it, not with two marauder and two snipers. It means the other classes is close enough in term of damage in order to down bosses. Remember, downing bosses in the most primary goal of raiding, and the only objective. Before I end this, I'll leave with one last example. Before my guild dropped to an 8 man nm progression from 16, our GM an operative, who is one of the highest dps , and definitely the most raid aware dps we have. During our 16 tenure, there were many occasions, where his off heals, or full respect into full heals help us clear content. This utility you speak of already exist, and it's one of the biggest utility you can get. Just because you don't use it, doesn't mean it's not there. Albeit there is still sin dps , who is actually in need of a buff, I seriously see no point to all these complains for the other ACs.

I think all annihilation needs is having longer uptime on their stacks, or some way to gain double stacks at the beginning. Not too much need to be done about annihilation IMO beside that obvious problem which would cause say, annihilation marauder dps to absolutely plummet in a fight such as Titan 6. If that's not enough, maybe a little base damage to deadly saber or rupture. As for PvP, while I'm no expert in pvp by any means, I believe if there is a way to gain multiple stacks quicker, they can be used in arenas affectly to burn down tanks or other things that has heavy defenses. Extra procs on rupture can also be used to dot multiple targets instead of clipping dots, etc.

I'm not too clear on what your asking on 1. Even though carnage/combat drops over time, it's not a full fledge plummet. It steadies out in average dps over time. It's like a spikey graph, similar to what you see for heart rates on television, up and down up and down. in the end, the average dps evens out. Annihilation I believe will also reach their max damage over time, as for how long exactly it takes, you'll have to check with oofalong. If i'm understanding properly, then yes. If they somehow made the RNG more predictable for carnage/combat, with no other adjustments, you can expect the dps number overall to skyrocket through the roof. The dropoff will end a lot quicker, and the overall damage will be quite a bit higher. Forgive me if I'm understanding this wrong. I think there is this myth that carnage/combat will just continuously dip in damage, and drop below other specs, or adv classes, I think that false. It's about who is behind that marauder or sentinel to maintain that dps over time. Sniper is in a way similar, a good test to see how good your sniper is in a tryout is to see how much their damage dips after 20 seconds.

While having my first class as a PT, I can see where some of you are coming from. Here is how I see it, you don't have to agree with it, but this SHOULD be how it is. The pure dps classes should and have to do more DPS, do they have to do significantly more? No, absolutely not, and they shouldn't. As long as the other dps classes are competitive, and still able to down bosses, I see absolutely no reason why the pure dps should have a little inherent advantage. Listen, not everyone is a top end raider, I know a friend who is horrible at marauder, and frankly speaking, he will never be good on a marauder. Fortunately for him, he has alts. There are people who don't have that same luxury, it will take a long time to reroll, and they have no other option but to do DPS, if all dps class output potential is exactly the same, what is he supposed to do if he is unable to improve, not because of lack of effort? A PT can just turn around and say, well, I realized I'm not a good dps, my skills as a dps is lacking, so I will learn to tank instead. An operative (might I add is doing amazing damage already as of now with lethality), can turn around and say, well, I can heal instead. Snipers and marauders have zero options left to them other than reroll if they can't pull ahead, and there would be much lesser reason and logic behind rolling a marauder or sniper at all. I think Bioware made an inherent mistake by making pure dps classes in the first place. The moment that decision is made, it is a given right, that they HAVE to do more damage, even if it's slight. They cannot ever stand on equal footing as the other ACs.

Your right on certain premises of carnage spec. The reason for carnage spec being spikey and difficult to manage is exactly what your pointed out to, the fall in term of damage. There will be inevitable falls due to execute and slaughter procs, however for the most part, it stabilizes around 3-4 min mark, from that point on, how much you can stabilize your carnage damage is just how you put together the rest of your abilities, in which order, how things proc'ed, how you reacted to those procs. I can get into details if you want to send me PMs, but I'd rather not make this a huge wall of text explaining how on specific Carnage reactions. And as Oofalong have pointed out, your 3800 dps is clearly baseless, the highest stationary dummy parse that I know of is Ranick's 3195 with carnage on a dummy. Which is posted with mostly full KD, but no main hand. So as for the overall damage output. Anni vs Carnage is not as huge as people make it appear (which I was once guilty of), and each spec present their own set of challenges. For carnage, the challenge have clearly been stated by previous posts. For annihilation is keeping up the stacks, not clipping dots, and using the correct fillers at any given moment. The biggest difference between the two specs as it stands right now is just how the operation is currently designed. Many fights simply favors carnage a lot more than it does annihilation, because of certain mechanics, keeping up annihilate and juyo stacks can become a chore. Lastly, I want to comment on your post about your nm DG fight. Carnage opens up really strong in that fight in phase 1 as you stated. As you get further into phase 2 and phase 3, the drop in number is inevitable, as melee we will get downtime on the boss. I can't speak for annihilation, but for that particular fight, with carnage is just how your raid decide to place the boss, while you use your ranged abilities to minimize wasted global cooldown time. Is deadly saber throw a bad pve skill, yes, but sometimes when your far away, it's most certainly better than nothing, when your running, you can dual saber throw, force scream and vicious throw, with force camouflage, you should be able to keep up in no time. While I don't know what your gear is, I'll say from the good marauders I know on the server, and the numbers I've posted personally, it's 2.6k + on carnage UW for that fight with one doom. I've wiped on phase 3 with 2850 - 2.9 without any dooms and good RNG in the past. The problem with marauder for that fight mostly is downtime, for Carnage spec, is the fact that when your closing in on the boss, you are unable to capitalize on gores as well as you should. Edit: Note that I'm only a somewhat experienced journeyman on annihilation, I defer to oofalong to answer those. I could however, answer carnage related questions.

If airwolf's rule apply to 8 man as well, I'd like to post my edited log , which included adds at the end, and rundown timers. As for the legitimacy of this claim, you can go to death log for the writhing terror, I even rounded up an extra seconds due to decimals since horror's death. Writhing Horror: 3086 http://www.torparse.com/a/363391/time/1375315944/1375316264/0/Overview Thrasher: 2618.95 http://www.torparse.com/a/384935/time/1376530147/1376530453/0/Overview

Awesome stories guys, before I retired from GF FPs for progression operation, I'd consider myself one of the odd people you would meet in flashpoints. While knowing my class limits and defensive cooldowns, if tanks pulls too slow, I would leap in and pull first on trash mobs, if I'm premade a healer friend, he knows I will be chain pulling another mob as soon as the current one dies. Just to push the pace you know? I'm sure a lot of people who were using flashpoint for practice would be somewhat annoyed with what I do, but the idea was to finish those FPs as fast as we can. Note that unlike most of these stories, I don't die to mobs that I pull, most of the time I'm certain even if I receive zero heals, I can solo kill it ( at that point I was very overgeared and just grinding ultimate coms for alts) The weirdest thing I encountered was a tank who refused to guard me in a flashpoint even though he is unable to hold agro on the boss, despite me agro dumping right after his taunts. So I politely explained to him I need the guard to stop pulling, so we can finish this FP faster. He went on this rant and argued the healers take less damage, and the healers pull the most agro. So I was getting pretty angry at that point, so I proceeded to vote kick him. I put him on ignore, and finished that FP with 3 people, basically "marauder tank" the rest of the way through.

My god, that's truly unfortunate. I feel your pain since in my guild we also suffered similar problems , and dropped to a 8 man group since. Best of luck to you and your guild man.

Operator 9 2133.36 DPS - Ascentrl - The Chandrian - Marauder - Carnage - 5/36/5 http://www.torparse.com/a//15/0/Overview

My most recent parse: http://www.torparse.com/a/392748/time/1377053682/1377053979/0/Overview Ascentrl Marauder Carnage 3005.45 DPS

Everything is in 8 man. Kephess 3457.36 DPS - Ascentrl - The Chandrian - Marauder - Carnage - 5/36/5 http://www.torparse.com/a/391415

I know it's probably not likely anyone can craft this, but if anyone could, send me a mail by Ascentrl on the imp side, or Ascentx on the pub side.