CourtneyWoods Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 (edited) Hello Vanguards! Below are your answers from the dev team for your top three questions. Thank you very much for all the hard work you put into gathering these! The combat team will be keeping an eye on this thread, reading your feedback, and watching for any followups. Like with the Sniper and Sentinel answers, we have put the answers twice - first with Vanguard and second with Powertech so that it is easier for you to read. -Courtney PvP The community feels that Vanguards lack both survivability and utility in comparison to the other two DPS/tank classes. When we look at the defensive cooldown that shadows possess (stealth, force speed, force wave, deflection, phasewalk, and resilience), we see a greater potential for surviving an encounter. The same is true when we look at a guardians list of cooldowns (guardian leap, force leap, saber ward, saber reflect, enure and force push). Looking at the vanguards short list of (reactive shield, hold the line, and adrenaline rush, harpoon, stealth scan), In terms of being picked for high level end game PVP IE (Rated pvp) coupled with the changes to our burst and lack of cool downs as listed above vanguard tanks and DPS alike bring nothing to the plate that the other two tanking/DPS class don’t bring, For example (in this example consider the three classes are DPS spec only ) in a huttball a shadow has his or her stealth for setting up end zone passes also the shadow has his or her force speed and resilience for grabbing the ball when it resets to the middle of the map. A guardian has his or her enemy leap and friendly leap, and force push for setting up scores, a vanguard has his or her harpoon for fire pulls and hold the line, harpoon can be a game saving talent in the right hands and hold the line is far from useless but the community feels that these talents don’t stack up to the other two classes talents. The word “lackluster” fits how the community's feels about the class right now. To encompass the point of this question here again the vanguard players feel “lackluster” in PVP Where as before many players at least felt like they were able to compete in PVP do to the burst assault once had now many players feel no matter which spec they find themselves using they cannot compete whatsoever, so we ask what could be done to address these weaknesses? We are sorry that the community feels this way about the Vanguard. The short list you gave for the Vanguard was only one item behind the lists you gave for Shadows and Guardians. The road of comparison only leads to disappointment, and I believe many Guardians and Shadows are disappointed in their 30-meter range options, while Vanguards have many options when they are beyond melee range. Guardians and Shadows also can’t use Shoulder Cannon to damage enemies while they are stunned or to add a bit of extra burst when they aren’t stunned. Vanguards wear heavier armor than Shadows and have much better long-range capabilities than Guardians. In short, this is a perception problem, and it is one that you admit didn’t exist when Assault Specialist dealt more damage. When Assault Specialist damage goes up, will this perception issue go away? If not, we’ll address the issue, but we aren’t looking to make massive improvements that would only tip the scales in the other direction. --- We are sorry that the community feels this way about the Powertech. The short list you gave for the Powertech was only one item behind the lists you gave for Shadows and Guardians. The road of comparison only leads to disappointment, and I believe many Guardians and Shadows are disappointed in their 30-meter range options, while Powertechs have many options when they are beyond melee range. Guardians and Shadows also can’t use Shoulder Cannon to damage enemies while they are stunned or to add a bit of extra burst when they aren’t stunned. Powertechs wear heavier armor than Shadows and have much better long-range capabilities than Guardians. In short, this is a perception problem, and it is one that you admit didn’t exist when Pyrotech dealt more damage. When Pyrotech damage goes up, will this perception issue go away? If not, we’ll address the issue, but we aren’t looking to make massive improvements that would only tip the scales in the other direction. PVE: With the changes to the Assault tree and even with the small tweaks to the Tactics tree, many players for higher-end content (i.e. TFB/SV NiM) opt out of the top tier talents in both trees and instead run a hybrid spec. The general player consensus behind this option is that a full-tree Assault build is simply not viable, and that Tactics is missing a few key components to make it a truly great spec. In Assault, Assault Plastique's damage is disproportionate to other classes top-tier talent (not to mention having its burst potential neutered in 2.0), and lacks any kind of synergy with the tree. Tactics is a bit better, but players are forced to put a point into Blaster Augs (which gives a frustrating 1% boost to elemental attacks), and once again, the top tier talent Fire Pulse features a long cooldown while lacking any real punch. The hybrid spec, rather, is a simple priority system that combines Tactics AoE capabilities via Pulse Generator and pre-2.0 Assault's single target damage potential with three different DoT's and hard-hitting HiB. Was this hybrid intended to out pace the full tree builds of Assault/Tactics? If not, we as the player base feel as if the top-tier talents in both Tactics and Assault should be re-considered to make it worthwhile for players to climb all the way up the tree, so what can be done to increase their usefulness? We never intend for hybrids to outperform the 36-point builds, and this is exactly what we addressed in the 2.4 update. Players should now find that both Fire Pulse and Assault Plastique deal more damage than they did previously. In addition, the Assault Specialist should see some of its burst make a return in 2.4. At your convenience, I highly encourage you to copy your Vanguard over to the PTS and try out the new Tactics and Assault Specialist builds, along with the hybrid builds. The 36 point builds should outperform the hybrids now. Please keep in mind that Assault Specialist will perform considerably worse on a target dummy than it does in a real combat situation. There are two primary reasons for this. The most obvious reason is that the Burnout skill does not get its full effect on a target dummy, because a target dummy never falls below 30% health. The less obvious reason is because only around 48% of an Assault Specialist’s damage ignores armor, while for Tactics this number is around 65%. This means that the Assault Specialist has more to gain in situations where an armor debuff is present on the target, as should be the case in an operation. --- We never intend for hybrids to outperform the 36-point builds, and this is exactly what we addressed in the 2.4 update. Players should now find that both Immolate and Thermal Detonator deal more damage than they did previously. In addition, the Pyrotech should see some of its burst make a return in 2.4. At your convenience, I highly encourage you to copy your Powertech over to the PTS and try out the new Advanced Prototype and Pyrotech builds, along with the hybrid builds. The 36 point builds should outperform the hybrids now. Please keep in mind that Pyrotech will perform considerably worse on a target dummy than it does in a real combat situation. There are two primary reasons for this. The most obvious reason is that the Burnout skill does not get its full effect on a target dummy, because a target dummy never falls below 30% health. The less obvious reason is because only around 48% of an Pyrotech’s damage ignores armor, while for Advanced Prototype this number is around 65%. This means that the Pyrotech has more to gain in situations where an armor debuff is present on the target, as should be the case in an operation. Other: For our last question one of the biggest concerns the community has with the vanguard class from a DPS standpoint of view is lack of burst. With some of the changes to our class in 2.0 and the change to Crit vanguard DPS across all servers found themselves lacking burst and suffering heavily from it. Our classes TTK (time to kill) is very slow now its not impossible to solo another class but overall in both the tactics tree and assault tree we feel VERY underwhelmed and out classes compared to a shadow DPS or a guardian DPS. Many players have made note that the change to our High Impact bolts armor pen has played a part in this but also if we look at other classes such as shadows, commandos, or focus Guardians our numbers in game don’t stack up. Our High impact bolt hits on average around 5.5 to 6.5 K and that’s at its highest whereas other classes like focus guardians or shadows flat out hit harder In PVP TTK (time to kill) especially in endgame high level PVP such as rateds or the upcoming arenas time to kill and burst is something a class must have to be taken, our class lacks that over all. Our end match numbers CAN and will stack up to other classes in both tactics and Assault but these numbers are misleading we might be stacking up number wise but we struggle to kill anything in both our DPS trees compared to the other DPS classes, it feels as if right now all classes have at least one DPS tree they can count on to bring burst to their teams efforts but our class really lacks that feature and we feel this is a problem that needs to be addressed. Before 2.0 a vanguard DPS could find himself a spot on a good rated team do to the great burst he or she brought to the plate. It was what set our class apart from the others and in many ways was our best defense skill so, with that said is there anyway this overall general concern for our classes lack of burst damage could be addressed? 2.4 is bringing a DPS upgrade to both Vanguard damage dealing specializations, as well as a burst upgrade for Assault Specialists and a harder-hitting Fire Pulse for Tactics. These upgrades should make Vanguard damage dealers more competitive in PvP, with faster TTKs than before, and intrinsically more survivability because of that. --- 2.4 is bringing a DPS upgrade to both Powertech damage dealing specializations, as well as a burst upgrade for Pyrotechs and a harder-hitting Immolate for Advanced Prototype. These upgrades should make Powertech damage dealers more competitive in PvP, with faster TTKs than before, and intrinsically more survivability because of that. Edited August 23, 2013 by AmberGreen
af_raptura Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 The answers are kind of lack luster here, just like with the Sorc questions. Sure 2.4 has an overall buff to tactics and an arguable buff to Assault, but the buffs are a bit too conservative whereas I feel they need to be more gamechanging so that Vanguards/Powertechs get taken more seriously in PvP and PvE.
Canga Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 Ouch, please atleast read the theory crafted posts based on stated effect of burn out and PTS changes before writing answers like this, or at least tell us where our math is off? You do know the community puts a lot of effort into these questions and answers like "look, we fixed it all in PTS" is really dissapointing. At least back up your statements with facts and math that show your perceived balance between classes when a flaw is pointed out by the community.
Doctorsaurus Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 The argument that dummy parses don't count because we're not using Burnout is silly. Sents and slingers aren't using their <30% abilities either. But apparently comparing ourselves to other classes invalidates all arguments.
Luxidenstore Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 (edited) Failed the quoting. But in short, this is even worse answers than I had expected. Like really. It's friday so they could be excused if they're *********** drunk. Edited August 23, 2013 by Luxidenstore
Maelael Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 (edited) I didn't think I could see worse answers than the Sorc ones, but here it is. I feel bad for you guys. By far the biggest comedy was the 30m range excuse - in both 8v8 and 4v4s your range is constantly meaningless to me as a Jugg or Mara given all of my gap closers, roots, slows, and CCs. Edited August 23, 2013 by Maelael
Winguardian Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 Wow, this post offers no real answers to any of the questions. Like many mentioned before if you are comparing our overall dps in "real" encounters there's plenty of other dps classes that get a dps gain when the target is below 30%, how is that even relevant to the issue? I agree that we got some improvements for PVP in 2.4 but I think the PVE vanguards will still not be in a good spot. In all fairness this is gonna be hard for BW to balance right since it's not as easy as tweaking a few numbers, cause that in turn will efffect PVP aswell. I would like to have BW re-evaluate what they could do to tweak shoulder cannon a bit to give it a better use in PVE though, since in truth for PVE it is kind of lackluster. Kinda disappointed we waited so long for answers that are just ignoring the issues though. I feel for PVE vanguards in a raiding environment.
MillionsKNives Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 Ouch. The arrogance and dismissal displayed in the responses is amazing. And here I was hoping some good might actually come out of this system.
Luxidenstore Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 I didn't think I could see worse answers than the Sorc ones, but here it is. I feel bad for you guys. By far the biggest comedy was the 30m range excuse - in both 8v8 and 4v4s your range is constantly meaningless to me as a Jugg or Mara given all of my gap closers, roots, slows, and CCs. Agreed, that was the icing on the cake. First of all when they compared us with the Guardian, the Guardian have a proper gap closer + a friendly leap + an ability to reset cooldown of the gap closer. All baseline to class. That comparison was so stupid that I have no words.. Second of all, we haven't been strong at range since they nerfed IR and AP from 30m to 10m.. Are they playing their own game? And now on the PTS hammer shot can't proc Plasma cell, so we can't HiB from range either on our own. So I ask this, Bioware, what makes our ranged capabilities so good? Mindblowing.
Besta Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 So, Powertechs/vanguards are worst tanks and damage BECAUSE they can use 30m range auto attack and marauders and juggs cant? so in bioware's mind melee class with 30 meters auto attack and 2 more crap abilities that don't do damage is equal to juggernauths in tanking and marauders in damage? And the reason we ( powertechs) do absolutly crap damage is because of burnout skill?HOLY COW I FEEL LIKE BIOWARE TROLLS US, THERE IS NO OTHER REASON. Once again powertechs are equal to juggernauth with 20 best in slot defensive cooldowns is ( ta-dam) because of autoatack and crap 400 damage shoulder cannon. In damage trees Powertech is equal to best in slot classes because of people do not calculate burntout skill and bioware adds more burst on PTS by adding 200 damage on thermal detonator from dot to upfront damage. HOLY COW,BIOWARE, DO U EVEN UNDERSAND YOUR OWN GAME?:rak_02::rak_02::rak_02::rak_02::rak_02::rak_02::rak_02::rak_02::rak_02::rak_02::rak_02::ra
Ottoattack Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 You know, I did not think the answers will be any good, but this is down right insulting. So PvP community is "delusional." I guess I have been imagining that no one takes PTs to RWZs and that they suck over all in WZs. Maybe you should get real and provide real answers to the questions instead of this half assed crap, and I might change my "perspective" of the devs from being completely to semi incompetent. PvE, for that 1008932798 time, the "burn out argument," is beyond dumb. Please show me a pyro parse on an ACTUAL OPS boss doing higher than 2,700 then we will take. Also, none of the changes made on PTS will result in damage gain from for pyro from PvE stand point. I answered nothing and offered nothing of value. Damage, go see PTS. Really?! That's the best input you can offer? I guess I have been imaging the 200 posts criticizing the changes between PTS forum, and PT/VG forums. Is the best you have to offer?
Ansalem Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 Wow do they even know their own game? holy hell! "Please keep in mind that Pyrotech will perform considerably worse on a target dummy than it does in a real combat situation. There are two primary reasons for this. The most obvious reason is that the Burnout skill does not get its full effect on a target dummy, because a target dummy never falls below 30% health. The less obvious reason is because only around 48% of an Pyrotech’s damage ignores armor" this response isnt cutting it. What about the other classes that have sub 30% skills/executes? They do just fine on target dummies they also lack armor penetration too. These responses were so lackluster its like a slap in the face to the entire BH community. Its as if they didnt want to be bothered with questions at all so gave short, undetailed, and incomplete responses. Do they seriously think that burnout sub 30% is going to close the huge gap in dmg between other classes especially when they get executes? friggin outrageous
Ansalem Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 You know, I did not think the answers will be any good, but this is down right insulting. So PvP community is "delusional." I guess I have been imagining that no one takes PTs to RWZs and that they suck over all in WZs. Maybe you should get real and provide real answers to the questions instead of this half assed crap, and I might change my "perspective" of the devs from being completely to semi incompetent. PvE, for that 1008932798 time, the "burn out argument," is beyond dumb. Please show me a pyro parse on an ACTUAL OPS boss doing higher than 2,700 then we will take. Also, none of the changes made on PTS will result in damage gain from for pyro from PvE stand point. I answered nothing and offered nothing of value. Damage, go see PTS. Really?! That's the best input you can offer? I guess I have been imaging the 200 posts criticizing the changes between PTS forum, and PT/VG forums. Is the best you have to offer? I felt insulted too especially when she says to copy a char over to the PTS to see. I mean *** people have done that already they are testing arenas and the changes...guess what they are still underperformiing. Ridiculous
Master-Nala Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 Why did they create this class rep thing if they were going to just dismiss our concerns?
Luxidenstore Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 Why did they create this class rep thing if they were going to just dismiss our concerns? PR reasons, to make it seem like they're trying.
DarthBloodloss Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 Does the class rep really write questions that are 25 lines long with no paragraphs or line breaks? Or did the dev just copy/paste like that.... And those questions seem pretty vague and open ended, that's why they gave vague answers.
Balmuck Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 First, you guys are NOT sorry for anything. My grandmother, who's never played a game, would have come up with a better constructed and coherent message to your player base. Reading this response, is literally making me wish I didn't resub few days ago, which I ONLY DID, because there was a glimmer of hope left, or at least I taught so, of playing my Powertech again, and feeling like I actually belong on the field with the "other" classes (you know which they are, I don't have to write down anything for you). When I say that, I mean the competitive field, not random pick up groups, with mediocre players. Second, it is beyond ABSURD that you guys claim to have "fixed" anything in 2.4, especially our trees, which you GUTTED a while back, and left us to rot in **** that was up to our neck. Sooo, you know what you did? You took the **** that was up to our necks, and drained it until it was right about waist high, and called it a fix. You didn't fix anything! The idiotic claim that more damage on DoTs, below 30% HP, will fix Pyro is just that, idiotic. While other classes get execute abilities, that literally do upwards of 10k damage per hit, you're giving us a dummy, idiot version, that can be cleansed, only affects our weakest abilities (yea, our DoTs suck massive donkey balls and it's supposed to be our primary mode of damage in that spec). Can't wait for my 3 DoTs to do 150 more damage per tick, while a Mara chucks out 5-7k hits on every execute without even blinking, with horrible gear. The Thermal Detonator "fix" is not a fix. Again, you nerfed it into **** and then buffed the **** by 5%. That's nothing. The slightly increased damage to mid tree, by our harder hitting ability, which is OK, if it didn't suck. Basically, it now does about 6k damage per hit, so we can get our medal, which is offset by the nerfs to our Snare, which we had to overuse to overcompensate for ZERO BURST. What should I follow up my immolate with now? Flame Thrower that SHOULD NEVER hit anyone with a brain cell? Yea, that ability.... Also, stop it with the target dummy thing. Which other class uses their executes on a dummy that's over 30%? Oh, wait, NO CLASS can do that. I remember when your last player stats came out, PTs were one of the least played classes. I'm willing to bet anything, that the numbers are even worse now. You wanna know why that is? It's definitely NOT because of how awesome the Dev team is at keeping the class, and the player base happy. All I ask, OR ANYONE else asks for is to ALLOW us to be on EQUAL footing when compared to other classes. We are NOT right now, and no matter what you say, anyone in their right mind, would pick either a better tank (Juggy/Guardian), or much better DPS (Snipers, Maras), in their team for competitive games. Either allow us to compete, or just fricking delete us, because every single time I play this game, I feel like my class is inadequate, and that feeling SUCKS.
dipstik Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 i like the second answer, and i like that the pvp question spoke to pve concerns. seems odd that Pt tanks would be unhappy with their survivability, considering post 2.0 is a spike check, and they are the least spikey tanks of them all.
Balmuck Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 Does the class rep really write questions that are 25 lines long with no paragraphs or line breaks? Or did the dev just copy/paste like that.... And those questions seem pretty vague and open ended, that's why they gave vague answers. Basically, that's what's left of the PT/Vanguard community.
Twickers Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 Have to say...that was a really, REALLY poor choice of words Bioware, I don't play a vanguard/powertech as a main, have them as alts but even I can tell when I occasionally play on them that they need help, and this is honestly the best you can say? Come the hell on.
Ansalem Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 time to see the PT/VG unsub threads pop up. Friggin insulting responses that BW gave not to mention how truly wrong they are about the dps parsing on dummies I mean honestly its become so obvious they dont have a clue at all. Oh well I guess we all have Wildstar to look forward to
ParagonAX Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 (edited) In short, this is a perception problem, and it is one that you admit didn’t exist when Assault Specialist dealt more damage. When Assault Specialist damage goes up, will this perception issue go away? If not, we’ll address the issue, but we aren’t looking to make massive improvements that would only tip the scales in the other direction. For the love of God COURTNEYWOODS. Why did you ignore EVERYTHING about the survivability of the pyro tree. HEAVY ARMOR? HEAVY FREAKING ARMOR? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Pyro had ENERGY REBOUNDER before 2.0. Now both ENERGY REBOUNDER and STABILIZED ARMOR are in AP tree. These are the BEST TWO defensive talents a PT has. Pyro is squishy as **** now. Don't you *********** get it? Edited August 23, 2013 by ParagonAX
Ansalem Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 For the love of God COURTNEYWOODS. Pyro had ENERGY REBOUNDER before 2.0. Now both ENERGY REBOUNDER and STABILIZED ARMOR are in AP tree. These are the BEST TWO defensive talents a PT has. Pyro is squishy as **** now. Don't you *********** get it? Nope she don't pretty obvious by her insulting responses to the VG/PT community
Luxidenstore Posted August 23, 2013 Posted August 23, 2013 (edited) While I'm beyond pissed at the answers, it's not Courtney you should point the pitchforks at, she's merely relaying the information. It's the utterly clueless devs, who are too busy playing their Snipers, healops and Marauders to come here and take the discusion. Edited August 23, 2013 by Luxidenstore
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