cool premades bro!

[DarthOvertone]

i love having absolutely no chance to win a match

 

i.e. The premades on my teams haven't been able to carry me this week.

[Kovaos]

Here is what it comes down to: Good players beat bad players

 

/thread

 

So when you lose to a premade that qualifies you as a bad player? Don't be so hard on yourself brony.

[Velsix]

Premades should face other premades majority of the time. Pugs should face pugs majority of the time.

 

Personal skill with their class isn't a factor, the premades simply have a strategy, a leader, and they follow directions. Inferior skill levels can be easily covered up by team work. I play with a competitive soccer club, and we have players that frankly suck in 1v1 situations. When in their role in the team, they are great. Teamwork.

 

Pugs do not listen, mostly have zero discipline, and generally every player does whatever they want.

 

Simply taking the time to gather a group together for PvP shouldn't entitle the group to facerolling pugs.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Velsix

[General_Aldo]

Let's be honest. TS helps. But isn't game changing.

 

You're not as good as you think.

 

Good players will beat a bad premade. So the premade isn't the issue. players are.

 

What will you complain about next?

Edited August 1, 2013 by General_Aldo

[General_Aldo]

So when you lose to a premade that qualifies you as a bad player? Don't be so hard on yourself brony.

 

You twist words and ideas so much.

 

I PUG 100%.

 

Good PUG players will beat a bad premade with TS. Correct?

 

You're just not as good as you think.

Edited August 1, 2013 by General_Aldo

[General_Aldo]

OTE=Velsix;6616290]Premades should face other premades majority of the time. Pugs should face pugs majority of the time.

 

Personal skill with their class isn't a factor, the premades simply have a strategy, a leader, and they follow directions. Inferior skill levels can be easily covered up by team work. I play with a competitive soccer club, and we have players that frankly suck in 1v1 situations. When in their role in the team, they are great. Teamwork.

 

Pugs do not listen, mostly have zero discipline, and generally every player does whatever they want.

 

Simply taking the time to gather a group together for PvP shouldn't entitle the group to facerolling pugs.

 

It's true that teamwork and coordination are essential to winning a warzone.

 

However, individual skill has to be there in the first place to achieve good teamwork with coordination.

 

Your example was poor. In order to play competitive sports. You have to be pretty good. So skill has to be there.

 

Sorry for multiple posts everyone. Replying from phone and can't quote more than one at a time

[Locksley]

I never post on the pvp section of the forums , since... well let's face it , it always comes down to nerf this and OP that , so this will probably be the first and last post from me on this part of the forum.

Regarding the premades issue everyone seems to complain about , this is a l2p problem for most players , since 2.0 i pvped 85% of the time solo , and the problem i see in almost all warzones on TOFN on the empire side is people who don't play the objectives ( example : 2 guys go grass in Civil war , they cap the turret and both of em leave for middle and leave it undefended ; ancient hypergate Sorc guards pylon staying 5 meters from the cap point - this just screams : hey im an idiot who doesnt have a clue about stealth caps - keep in mind the person im talking about has a valor rank of 97 so hes been in a few warzone right ? ; and i can keep going )

Now when you are playing with a grup , and the group doesn't even have to be on vent , been grouped up with guys from White Noise without any of use from having voice chat from being on TS or Vent or anything else, just used the party chat for the different color (easier to distinguish what we wanna say to each other ) , and with the coordination from the regular chat we managed to do our job and win the matches.

When i queue solo , even if i say something simple as : voidstar match , round 1 , were the attacking team - all go right side , me and 1 more stealth left , there will always be a sorcerer or a PT or a marauder or whatever non stealth class that has to follow us.

Another example would be me node guarding in Novare , i call : inc 2 , delay de cap for 10 seconds , yelling again inc 3 , delaying again from another 7-8 seconds , until i inevitably have to enter combat , at which point i yell again help East under attack and i get no support from my pug team , then yeah i can understand why people go do wzs in premades .

Such examples are not something that happens rarely , its common , i'd say something along the lines of 90% of the pugs , and i can give you examples like the wall of text i create is unbearable , but you get the picture.

My main is a deception assassin and i have been playing this spec since Vanilla Early access , this does not make me some uber pvper , i do both PVP and PVE , and don't even do pvp on a regular basis , so i am considered by my guildies very casual , but what i do know is that i must pay attention to everything that's happening around me in a war-zone , be careful where i stay , know who and when i have to engage , when to take a risk and leave a node unguarded or simply fake leaving a node knowing that the enemy will come there and therefore taking some pressure of another point , focus down the healers and not get goaded into leaving a point unguarded and so on.

At the moment , i can say that if these things would improve and if all the people that were queuing for a war-zone , would take 10 minutes , to browse the stickys posted on this forums section and then apply at least 50% of what's in there , the war-zones would be much more balanced , premades would not farm pugs so much and pvp al around would be more enjoyable.

P.S. : If anyone responds to my post , please take a time to actually read all of it or nothing at all ( and move on ) , it is very frustrating to see some half baked responses , based only on the first sentence from each paragraph

 

 

Nail on the head!!!! with a HUGE hammer

[itsluck]

I've never understood these threads...what's holding you back from making your own premade?

 

Don't be so anti-social, ask to group up with people that you see do good in a WZ, and learn to communicate.

[Zunayson]

Here we go:

 

Assertion: Premades have no unfair edge over pugs.

Evidence and reasoning:

 

1. People want to win regs. In other words, regs have some level of competition.
   
2. In a competition, there is a winner and a loser. There is no tie in this game's WZ. RNG is the tiebraker.
   
3. The point of any said competition is to measure a set of characteristics (The skills required to complete it)
   
   • Football requires coordination, teamwork, brute strength, speed.
     
   • Shooter games require reflex, knowledge of maps, weapons, sometimes teamwork.
     
   • MMOs require teamwork, class knowledge, map knowledge, strategy, and reflexes help. If you are not the right class, then you may lack the tools to do some jobs. For example, inquisitors don't have a leap. Operatives don't have a pull...
     

[*]Any other characteristics that are not part of this measured set need to be kept the same as constants.

[*]The set of characteristics that are being measured (see two points above) are NOT kept as constants, to ensure that one person prevails. The patriots, are, after all, better than the Jaguars. We don't cry about it being unfair....

 

TL;DR In other words, outside of:

• Class compisition
  
• Class knowledge
  
• Teamwork
  
• Map knowledge
  
• Communication and coordination
  
• Reflexes
  
• In general, any skill that varies from PERSON to person, not CLASS or TOON that is being measured in an MMO that contribute to a win.
  

 

Are the individuals of a premade any different than an individual of the pug? This is where I am right and OP is wrong; there is NO such advantage present (Arguable voice chat is, but even then premades will guaranteed roll you still). End of thread.

 

You can, however, argue that due to the premade's general better skill levels and class composition that a matchmaking system / role system should be set fourth, which I am wholeheartedly in agreement with.

 

General refutations of OP and supporter's retardation:

 

is each player in a premade any good by themselves

When put at equal odds with another player, yes. Again, different classes excel in different areas. A premade's victory is not wholly dependent in pure numbers; You might be able to outheal or outdeeps one single member but his application of his abilities and utility, and teamwork of his team obviously excel over your team. True, you may not be so bad as to deserve your bad team and some players on the premade's team may not deserve the win, but overall they are better.

 

Lets be honest and factor in "Vent", "Team Speak" and other voice over communication that help most of these Pre-Made groups, with long time grouping together.

 

The voice chat software could be argued as an unfair advantage, indeed. But they're still better than you and will roll you with little to no effort. The long time grouping together could help as to reuse previously used and upgraded strategies. AKA strategy and teamwork, which is a measurement of "skill" in this game. In other words, the fact that they have more does not mean they have an advantage.

 

other than that Pre-Made groups are farming easy kills, easy wins and its no different than someone spawn camping or killing lowbies.

 

I can objectively (that is, with fact and logic, prove to you that they are indeed different; Spawn camping is a result of bad play, and is no different than easy kills. However, what is wrong with spawn camping? If they got pushed back to spawn that's their fault. Killing lowbies is like farming worser geared players. Classes are not balanced around unequal gear or level. .

 

In other words, you are wrong and I am right; lowbies =/= spawn camping and farming.

 

I have formed multiple groups with friends and I'll be the first to say it is like taking candy from a baby unless you go up against another pre-made group.

 

So what's the problem? Why is your group at such a huge advantage? Is it because your players are better (again skill; working as intended, the better team wins, it is your reward and your spoils, and they shall go to the victor), or because of some other gear or statistic reason? The fact is, your friends are better than the average pug.

 

Are Pre-Made groups really fair for people who can't nor have the time to play with friends or are freshly new 55's

 

Being a fresh 55 means nothing now with bolster. Therefore, any meaningful statistical differences between a veteran and a freshie are thrown away. What is left is experience and skill. Something that should not be left unrewarded.

 

What are these grouped players afraid of if there was solo exclusive matches?

 

Honestly I'm not afraid, but right now ranked teams are so hardcore that I'm not good enough to be on them... Now once arenas come I'm gonna stop queueing regs because the four others really do **** up ninja caps in AH.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Zunayson

[Jimvinny]

Simply taking the time to gather a group together for PvP shouldn't entitle the group to facerolling pugs.

 

Of course it should. Teamwork deserves to be rewarded. There is nothing stopping the vast majority of pugs from grouping. When I solo queue, I will always attempt to group with other players that performed well. If I'm already grouped with a couple of buddies, we'll invite the solo queued guy who performed. We don't need to be in voice chat for this to work.

 

More often than not, simply being in a group makes people act more accountable, and they play objectives rather than running around fluffing their stats. This, in turn, greatly increases the chance that the team will do well. If you're getting rolled as a solo, join a group. You might not win all the time, but you'll win more.

[SaltyAuntJemima]

I like to think of all this from a slightly different perspective. Why do people premade as opposed to solo queue in the first place? Sometimes when queuing solo just get the daily done it feels like slamming my face into a wall repeatedly b/c the pugs are so god awful. It's even worse of a feeling when you are clearly carrying your team, but still lose.

 

Thus people premade to mitigate as much bad as possible and be more efficient with time spent. If pugs were mostly normal/decent players this wouldn't be really be an issue, but unfortunately there are too many bads out there for a lot of people to take that solo-que gamble on.

 

The solution for a solo-queuer? As i am sure written hundreds of times in the forums: 1) get better at your class 2) know the other classes capabilities and 3) make a friends list of other talented players to play with. Problem solved. If you decided to solo queue, you need to expect that "face pounding into a wall" feeling more often than not. Stop complaining about it. Laziness will never get what you want in life, and it shouldn't in a game either.

[Carter_Mathis]

I like to think of all this from a slightly different perspective. Why do people premade as opposed to solo queue in the first place? Sometimes when queuing solo just get the daily done it feels like slamming my face into a wall repeatedly b/c the pugs are so god awful. It's even worse of a feeling when you are clearly carrying your team, but still lose.

 

Thus people premade to mitigate as much bad as possible and be more efficient with time spent. If pugs were mostly normal/decent players this wouldn't be really be an issue, but unfortunately there are too many bads out there for a lot of people to take that solo-que gamble on.

 

The solution for a solo-queuer? As i am sure written hundreds of times in the forums: 1) get better at your class 2) know the other classes capabilities and 3) make a friends list of other talented players to play with. Problem solved. If you decided to solo queue, you need to expect that "face pounding into a wall" feeling more often than not. Stop complaining about it. Laziness will never get what you want in life, and it shouldn't in a game either.

 

It can also be viewed from an input/output perspective regarding chance of winning. In order to solo queue, you literally just need to press 1 button. In order to be part of these roflstomping premades that everyone and their mother complains about, you need to:

1.) Get into a group of 4 people

2.) Be in Voice communications

3.) Focus fire/Play with coordination

4.) Have stims and medpacs

5.) Be good at this game

6.) Find a healer (optional, i guess)

 

While I personally just find those things fun to do, it also maximizes your chance of winning. People in premades are putting in more effort and therefore gaining a better chance to win. Now solo qq'ers are complaining because they are losing to these premades, since I've yet to see anyone complain on the forums about winning too much. Essentially what they are doing is complaining that a person who is putting in more effort (and probably conventionally better) is beating them in a match in which they put in the least amount of effort possible.

[DarthOvertone]

Why do people premade as opposed to solo queue in the first place?

 

Thus people premade to mitigate as much bad as possible and be more efficient with time spent.

 

I think this viewpoint is far too sophisticated for an explanation as to why players premade. The answer is really much simpler than many people bother to admit. This is an MMO. Players want to play with other people, namely their friends. I'm willing to bet that is why most people group up and premade.

 

I play this game to hang out with my brother that lives far away. We group up in a 2-man premade and play together a lot of the time. Sometimes we add friends and it becomes a 4-man. Point being, we aren't looking to stomp anyone, faceroll anyone, grief anyone. We just want to hang out with each other and PvP, something that we've done since UO.

 

Really not that difficult to understand.

Edited August 1, 2013 by DarthOvertone

[Herocross]

People complain about good premades stomping them in warzones. That's new...!

 

What people don't complain about:

- Getting a good premade on their own group and stomping the enemy

- Getting a bad premade on their own group and losing to average pugs

 

Well, everything has been said anyways (get a group yourselves, good players>bad players). I queued with a friend the last month or so, we were 2 people all the time and we're actively looking for a PvP Guild. Why? Because we want to have fun, play with people (doing rateds, ops and other stuff that you need a group for) and think that a MMO is designed to play with other people. Not because we watn to roflstomp randoms... but I guess people will never understand or just have to find an excuse because they're losing all the time

[SaltyAuntJemima]

I think this viewpoint is far too sophisticated for an explanation as to why players premade. The answer is really much simpler than many people bother to admit. This is an MMO. Players want to play with other people, namely their friends. I'm willing to bet that is why most people group up and premade.

 

I play this game to hang out with my brother that lives far away. We group up in a 2-man premade and play together a lot of the time. Sometimes we add friends and it becomes a 4-man. Point being, we aren't looking to stomp anyone, faceroll anyone, grief anyone. We just want to hang out with each other and PvP, something that we've done since UO.

 

Really not that difficult to understand.

 

That's certainly possible too, but not everyone has RL friends that play the game to queue with. I, myself, don't have any RL friends that play anymore as they have all quit a long time ago. So I found other good players who I enjoy playing with and became "net friends" with them instead. It's the same outcome, but different roads to get there. The remaining underlying flaw most pugs have that complain about premades remain, they aren't networking with others regardless of their situation. It's pure laziness and ironically enough these people put more time in complaining about it in the forums than fixing it in-game themselves.

[General_Aldo]

Here we go:

 

Assertion: Premades have no unfair edge over pugs.

Evidence and reasoning:

 

1. People want to win regs. In other words, regs have some level of competition.
   
2. In a competition, there is a winner and a loser. There is no tie in this game's WZ. RNG is the tiebraker.
   
3. The point of any said competition is to measure a set of characteristics (The skills required to complete it)
   
   • Football requires coordination, teamwork, brute strength, speed.
     
   • Shooter games require reflex, knowledge of maps, weapons, sometimes teamwork.
     
   • MMOs require teamwork, class knowledge, map knowledge, strategy, and reflexes help. If you are not the right class, then you may lack the tools to do some jobs. For example, inquisitors don't have a leap. Operatives don't have a pull...
     

[*]Any other characteristics that are not part of this measured set need to be kept the same as constants.

[*]The set of characteristics that are being measured (see two points above) are NOT kept as constants, to ensure that one person prevails. The patriots, are, after all, better than the Jaguars. We don't cry about it being unfair....

 

TL;DR In other words, outside of:

• Class compisition
  
• Class knowledge
  
• Teamwork
  
• Map knowledge
  
• Communication and coordination
  
• Reflexes
  
• In general, any skill that varies from PERSON to person, not CLASS or TOON that is being measured in an MMO that contribute to a win.
  

 

Are the individuals of a premade any different than an individual of the pug? This is where I am right and OP is wrong; there is NO such advantage present (Arguable voice chat is, but even then premades will guaranteed roll you still). End of thread.

 

You can, however, argue that due to the premade's general better skill levels and class composition that a matchmaking system / role system should be set fourth, which I am wholeheartedly in agreement with.

 

General refutations of OP and supporter's retardation:

 

 

When put at equal odds with another player, yes. Again, different classes excel in different areas. A premade's victory is not wholly dependent in pure numbers; You might be able to outheal or outdeeps one single member but his application of his abilities and utility, and teamwork of his team obviously excel over your team. True, you may not be so bad as to deserve your bad team and some players on the premade's team may not deserve the win, but overall they are better.

 

 

 

The voice chat software could be argued as an unfair advantage, indeed. But they're still better than you and will roll you with little to no effort. The long time grouping together could help as to reuse previously used and upgraded strategies. AKA strategy and teamwork, which is a measurement of "skill" in this game. In other words, the fact that they have more does not mean they have an advantage.

 

 

 

I can objectively (that is, with fact and logic, prove to you that they are indeed different; Spawn camping is a result of bad play, and is no different than easy kills. However, what is wrong with spawn camping? If they got pushed back to spawn that's their fault. Killing lowbies is like farming worser geared players. Classes are not balanced around unequal gear or level. .

 

In other words, you are wrong and I am right; lowbies =/= spawn camping and farming.

 

 

 

So what's the problem? Why is your group at such a huge advantage? Is it because your players are better (again skill; working as intended, the better team wins, it is your reward and your spoils, and they shall go to the victor), or because of some other gear or statistic reason? The fact is, your friends are better than the average pug.

 

 

 

Being a fresh 55 means nothing now with bolster. Therefore, any meaningful statistical differences between a veteran and a freshie are thrown away. What is left is experience and skill. Something that should not be left unrewarded.

 

 

 

Honestly I'm not afraid, but right now ranked teams are so hardcore that I'm not good enough to be on them... Now once arenas come I'm gonna stop queueing regs because the four others really do **** up ninja caps in AH.

 

Finally someone who gets it. It's nice to see people like you on the forums

[Zoom_VI]

1.) Good coordination is a skill that needs to be practiced, so yeah, in that regard they are more skilled.

 

2.) People who perform well in premades perform well because they know their class and they know your class.

 

3.) No one complains about fighting horrible premades, they normally don't even notice they're fighting one until the end.

 

4.) They probably are better than you

 

5.) Tell me more about your RP-PvP server

 

I doubt he is fighting premades, I play on Jung-ma and the imp pugs are terrible. I can jump on my VG solo queue 9 wz and turn in my weekly. In fact I enjoy fighting imp premades because they actually put up a fight.

 

Also why do people automatically assume that all premades use voice chat? When I'm grouping most of the time I don't have voice chat.

[Vaerah]

Also why do people automatically assume that all premades use voice chat? When I'm grouping most of the time I don't have voice chat.

 

Because in their experience, people are meant to wander around like headless chickens, so those who don't, HAVE to have voice comm. Nothing fartest from truth, but you know, that's metropolitan legends holding strong.

[Zunayson]

Finally someone who gets it. It's nice to see people like you on the forums

 

can't tell if sarcasm or

[Carter_Mathis]

I doubt he is fighting premades, I play on Jung-ma and the imp pugs are terrible. I can jump on my VG solo queue 9 wz and turn in my weekly. In fact I enjoy fighting imp premades because they actually put up a fight.

 

Also why do people automatically assume that all premades use voice chat? When I'm grouping most of the time I don't have voice chat.

 

I personally hop in Teamspeak the moment I log in, but I've also been in my guild for almost 4 years and my favorite part of tor was hanging out with the people I'm guilded with. The additional bit of coordination was just a nice bonus.

[PowerReaper]

Ban me because i like to play with my friends, whom i know irl, i mean it's not like it's an mmo or anything Edited August 1, 2013 by PowerReaper

[Ren_simp]

Ok this games pvp is team based Multiplayer, I find it funny that people think that premades shouldn't be in regs

And should only play other premades where does this mentality come from?

 

If you are to lazy or anti social to get the full benefit from group play then you need to put up with the reduced chance to win as a solo queue player

 

The pvp is designed around group play so biowares priorities will always be 1 grouped 2 solo

Don't like it go play a single player game.

 

 

 

 

Find some friends

[General_Aldo]

can't tell if sarcasm or

 

It's not.

 

I PUG 100%. And support premades 100%

Edited August 2, 2013 by General_Aldo

[LenrocNewDawn]

The possibility to team-up is a must have for any MMORPG that wants to stay on the market. Pre-mades are not intrinsically bad but the way the match making system uses them is sometimes bad. If you want to argue that pre-mades have no advantage over PuGs, sorry I won't go into that, I don't have any desire to teach you basic logic.

Easy to follow demonstration:

1 Pre-mades are good!

2 Match making system is bad (flawed or non existent)

3 PMades x MM system = often bad (due to uneven teams in order of capability)

4 If you don't get it, sorry!

 

One more thing. Veteran players tend to group more then green ones, and assuming that most people learn and get better with experience, that creates a skill gap as-well.

I do think that lately they improved the match making system but it continues to favor quick forming of matches over balance so at odd hours very odd matches may be experienced.

Edited August 2, 2013 by LenrocNewDawn

[Arkerus]

If you don't think being in a well organized premade that communicates (because they know each other and possibly running voice chat) isn't an advantage you are delusional.

 

 

If you think a group of players in a pure PUG can coordinate on the same level of a premade you are delusional.

 

Forming premades is about one thing and one thing only: making sure your team has the advantage. Yes, you can do it with friends but really why are you doing it? To win of course. You trust you friends and can coordinate with them 100 times better than some Internet stranger.

 

I am not against premades, they just need to go into their own queue when a group of 3 or 4 is formed. This was already explained by the WoW devs many times. Its about even footing when the match starts. Premades are forced into their own queue there.