cool premades bro!

[Zunayson]

MMOs are a team game. If you cba to get a good team then you're gonna have a bad time.

 

 

 

Right now, you are looking at it from a pugs point of view.

 

So is OP. Looking at it from a premade's point of view, you see pugs are an "addendum," as one said, to the small group queue, who decided to try their luck instead of taking matters into their own hands. I spec fully into talents that boost 50% to 100% chance in order to eliminate luck. Crappy analogy, I know

 

A role system would definitely help, I'm all for it because my premade doesnt always have a healer available. It's our fault of course but whatever

 

Is what you are saying is fair based on because it's allowed in PVP right now?

 

Not necessarily. Fair is a funny word when dealing with competition. Usually the team in school that has the class jock is considered at an "unfair" advantage. "That's not fair they have Jonny!", you know or whatever. If Jonny himself is good, well... he has to be on SOMEONE's team. Most people here would then put balanced teams for the sake of sport and fun, putting a lot of bads on Jonny's team and letting those who are average be on the other team, as if it were "balanced."

 

Balancing teams to accommodate the skilled is not in real life. This is why professional sports teams usually continue to be the best or close to it for a very long time - nobody is moderating the teams for the sake of sport and fun.

 

And I say it's okay, because there are losers in life, and their are winners in life.

 

And at the same time there's no reason for Tom Brady to be on the Patriots as any other team, so there's no specific reason against moderating teams for skill.

 

I'm trying to show you my train of thought in that one team annihilating the other isn't necessarily unfair, as long as some factors stay the same.

 

For example, I would personally say that a tall basketball team vs a short basketball team is unfair, because it's not my belief that height is one of the skills basketball measures. After all, nobody can control their height. They can, however, get faster, stronger, and better. So, I think that one team being taller, or cheating, or doing anything that's not speed, strength, strategy, or skill related is UNFAIR while anything related to speed, strength, strategy, or skill is FAIR.

 

But then again, not all competitions are for all people, so maybe height is okay. Disabled people can hardly competitively play an MMO with people who aren't disabled - they'd have to go for a less physically demanding competition.

 

After thinking about it I do sort of see how it makes sense to be allowed to choose your team in such a team-based game like this, but then I wouldn't be able to find any games on my powertech

 

And bioware isn't reading this anyways, so we're not getting a role system, because pvp in this game is that powertech, the bad on jonny's team who would be picked last.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Zunayson

[Raazmir]

But then again, not all competitions are for all people, so maybe height is okay. Disabled people can hardly competitively play an MMO with people who aren't disabled - they'd have to go for a less physically demanding competition.

 

 

True story, the fastest, best pug run i've ever been in during an MMO was when I was groupfindered in WoW with, i kid you not, a group of adults with down's syndrome who were living in a group home together. We cleared the dungeon in record time because they were willing to listen, communicate and try to execute the strategies I explained to them.

[Arkerus]

Blizzard spoke against the exploiting of the system allowed by oQueue, a WoW add on, which allowed groups larger than their standard, acceptable party size to queue together. In essence they spoke out against the super queue, not groups or grouping in general.

 

No they didn't. Their posts were specifically directed to the premade teams that were farming the queue.

 

That is why they split the queues completely. If your point stands they simply would have stopped the API that people were using.

 

You are wrong. Blizzard specifically did not want teams in a "public" queue. Any group larger than 3 was placed into its own queue.

[Doomsdaycomes]

No they didn't. Their posts were specifically directed to the premade teams that were farming the queue.

 

That is why they split the queues completely. If your point stands they simply would have stopped the API that people were using.

 

You are wrong. Blizzard specifically did not want teams in a "public" queue. Any group larger than 3 was placed into its own queue.

 

Their post was specifically directed at the use of oQueue. Look it up, it's spelled oQueue for a reason.

 

Now if you have some proof they split the queue's like that, I'd love to see it because I can't seem to find any. From what I can see their largest acceptable party is still their standard 5, and there is not solo-only queue.

 

 

On a side not, it is kind of interesting right after their big "article" they dropped more subs then ever in a quarter.

[Zunayson]

True story, the fastest, best pug run i've ever been in during an MMO was when I was groupfindered in WoW with, i kid you not, a group of adults with down's syndrome who were living in a group home together. We cleared the dungeon in record time because they were willing to listen, communicate and try to execute the strategies I explained to them.

 

I was thinking things more along the lines of...

 

Full body paralysis... Not someone who cant walk or something

[Sharee]

You seem to misunderstand what "players in a similar situation" means. Blizzard is referring to players who are playing within the intentional parameters of the game. Whether a person is solo queued or grouped, they are not exploiting and therefore categorically the same.

 

You need to read the sentence in the context it was made in:

 

"...organized Battleground group to queue against a randomly assembled group is creating a scenario where that coordinated group has a huge advantage. That is not in the spirit of the experience we want to provide in the normal Battleground queue. "

 

and then

 

"The normal Battleground queue is for players to jump in and play against other players in a similar situation."

 

From that context, it is clear that "jump in and play" and "other players in similar situation" in the second sentence is referring to players who are not a part of an organized battlground group (i.e. as opposed to the first sentence)

Edited August 5, 2013 by Sharee

[Doomsdaycomes]

You need to read the sentence in the context it was made in:

 

"...organized Battleground group to queue against a randomly assembled group is creating a scenario where that coordinated group has a huge advantage. That is not in the spirit of the experience we want to provide in the normal Battleground queue. "

 

and then

 

"The normal Battleground queue is for players to jump in and play against other players in a similar situation."

 

From that context, it is clear that "jump in and play" and "other players in similar situation" in the second sentence is referring to players who are not a part of an organized battlground group (i.e. as opposed to the first sentence)

 

And a full organized battleground group (in WoW) is 10+ people and only possible via oQueue, aka the Super-Queue.

 

You can try and stretch it, but the shoe doesn't fit. That article is about an exploit/abuse of the system, not about people grouping up.

[Atramar]

And a full organized battleground group (in WoW) is 10+ people and only possible via oQueue, aka the Super-Queue.

 

You can try and stretch it, but the shoe doesn't fit. That article is about an exploit/abuse of the system, not about people grouping up.

 

Not to mention, that WoW, from what I hear, has some things caleld addons,roles arent that straight (like lineage2, you had 4 different buffers, 1 debuffer,2 supports different, 4 tanks and then DDs) and class synergy.

Only class synergy we have, is that 3 AC can do armor debuff that doesnt stack, 2 healing debuff that doesnt stack and 1 movment speed and it's pretty straight, 3 tanks (ofc they have different roles but can fill in for pug games) 3 healers (were 2 can do same job and one requires skilled player) and DDs.

 

on related topic, I've tried 2 premade run on sunday, and the 2 games we actually managed to be in one team, and noone of them weren't challenging, not cause we were super premade, nor organized group, and not out geared (as we did it to actually gear our bottoms), but cause pugs sucked, we didn't even have 'ranked' setup. They weren't killing us, they didn't watch over objectives, and every time they preffered to attack my tank (who was close to them ofc) over ranged DDs - not to mention healers.

 

most fun it was when we were against each other , and then it was competition who had worse pugs. - so just like normal pug , those with more bads lose.

 

I support splitting 2x4 groups, if 2 groups que in shortly close timing, they should be placed against each other. It's so much fun to hunt guildies

Edited August 5, 2013 by Atramar

[Asturias]

Look BioWARE already implimented bolster into its system for fair play and its only fair to impliment solo que only matches for fair and balanced games. Casual players are the majority and ranked games are for organized group play. I don't understand why some of you have such a problem with fair play, unless your anti social and don't like playing with strangers and enjoy a fake sense of awesomeness but wouldn't a solo que match force premade teams to do rank instead which in return would create a competitive enviornment for hardcore players who wish for compitition in the game?

 

Solo que matches would depend on individual skill of the team.

 

Rank que matches would depend on group organized and tactical prowess.

 

This is how it should be a level of progression in a game for people who want to play a match or two or for people who want more. It all comes down to compititive fun so think about it because WoW finally noticed the issue, among others.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Look BioWARE already implimented bolster into its system for fair play and its only fair to impliment solo que only matches for fair and balanced games. Casual players are the majority and ranked games are for organized group play. I don't understand why some of you have such a problem with fair play, unless your anti social and don't like playing with strangers and enjoy a fake sense of awesomeness but wouldn't a solo que match force premade teams to do rank instead which in return would create a competitive enviornment for hardcore players who wish for compitition in the game?

 

Solo que matches would depend on individual skill of the team.

 

Rank que matches would depend on group organized and tactical prowess.

 

This is how it should be a level of progression in a game for people who want to play a match or two or for people who want more. It all comes down to compititive fun so think about it because WoW finally noticed the issue, among others.

 

Couple problems:

 

Bolster was introduced to level 55 because they couldn't make recruit gear powerful enough to be competitive without breaking the first (and possibly second) tier of PvE end-game gear. On top of that, they couldn't force players to wear recruit, and many people sold or discarded theirs rather than use it.

 

Second...

 

Casual player doesn't mean solo players! Nice try, but that's another fallacy pushed by the solo-camp. Casual has nothing to do with queue type and everything to do with time available, attitude, preparation, etc... Casual =/= Solo.

 

Finally, solo queue's don't make things competitive/fair. Only matchmaking will.

 

I am rapidly becoming convince solo-only proponents have their own agenda... most likely feeling special cause they can take a node without fear of team-oriented players who actually call inc's and respond.

[Atramar]

... I don't understand why some of you have such a problem with fair play, unless your anti social and don't like playing with strangers and enjoy a fake sense of awesomeness but wouldn't a solo que match force premade teams to do rank instead which in return would create a competitive enviornment for hardcore players who wish for compitition in the game?

 

Solo que matches would depend on individual skill of the team.

 

Rank que matches would depend on group organized and tactical prowess.

 

This is how it should be a level of progression in a game for people who want to play a match or two or for people who want more. It all comes down to compititive fun so think about it because WoW finally noticed the issue, among others.

 

So people are anti social cause they GROUP with 3 others to join a game with 4 strangers? good one

 

Solo que would depends on (like now) who have more bads.

 

Ranked are different story. Totally different level of gameplay.

 

Level of progression is 10-29,30-54, 55 and ranked 55.

Also, Doom pointed out what WoW did.

And a full organized battleground group (in WoW) is 10+ people and only possible via oQueue, aka the Super-Queue.

 

You can try and stretch it, but the shoe doesn't fit. That article is about an exploit/abuse of the system, not about people grouping up.

[Asturias]

Couple problems:

 

Bolster was introduced to level 55 because they couldn't make recruit gear powerful enough to be competitive without breaking the first (and possibly second) tier of PvE end-game gear. On top of that, they couldn't force players to wear recruit, and many people sold or discarded theirs rather than use it.

 

Second...

 

Casual player doesn't mean solo players! Nice try, but that's another fallacy pushed by the solo-camp. Casual has nothing to do with queue type and everything to do with time available, attitude, preparation, etc... Casual =/= Solo.

 

Finally, solo queue's don't make things competitive/fair. Only matchmaking will.

 

I am rapidly becoming convince solo-only proponents have their own agenda... most likely feeling special cause they can take a node without fear of team-oriented players who actually call inc's and respond.

Bolster was implimented for people who didn't have the time nor the hours to put into the game to stay competitive in PvP and for the simple fact that new 50s would sale it instead of using it until they got the next tier set.

 

Now back to topic, you can scream until your red in the face about not wanting to see solo que matches but its going to happen wether you like it or not. Premades have been a problem on every platform to date and they farm new players and soloers who want to have a little PvP fun and it discourage players from coming back and Joining the community.

 

PvP has a different dynamic than PVE and you can't compare it with grouping because that is just the way it is attitude. PvP needs to have a level of balance, progression and compitition and grouping adds that hardmode to a regular match unless you are going up against another similar premade.

 

But I get it you like to farm players with your pocket healers and friends who use team speak and are expected to cooperate with each other vs a bunch of scrappers who have one or two veteran players and a bunch fresh greens.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Asturias

[Doomsdaycomes]

Bolster was implimented for people who didn't have the time nor the hours to put into the game to stay competitive in PvP and for the simple fact that new 50s would sale it instead of using it until they got the next tier set.

 

Now back to topic, you can scream until your red in the face about not wanting to see solo que matches but its going to happen wether you like it or not. *snip*

 

Sorry, couldn't stop laughing there.

 

So in the entire industry of MMO's I see one MMO that's actually implemented a solo-only queue (actually, it's a 1-2 queue)... that one being Rift. We can't tell how well it's working on their subs since they don't have to publish their numbers. The trumpet "King of MMO's" WoW still doesn't have it from what I can tell...

 

So where is your evidence it's going to happen?

 

Also... if it's going to happen, why bother trying to discuss it. Just stop yapping, wait till it happens, then come back and say "I told you so!"

[Solid_]

Couple problems:

 

Bolster was introduced to level 55 because they couldn't make recruit gear powerful enough to be competitive without breaking the first (and possibly second) tier of PvE end-game gear. On top of that, they couldn't force players to wear recruit, and many people sold or discarded theirs rather than use it.

 

Second...

 

Casual player doesn't mean solo players! Nice try, but that's another fallacy pushed by the solo-camp. Casual has nothing to do with queue type and everything to do with time available, attitude, preparation, etc... Casual =/= Solo.

 

Finally, solo queue's don't make things competitive/fair. Only matchmaking will.

 

I am rapidly becoming convince solo-only proponents have their own agenda... most likely feeling special cause they can take a node without fear of team-oriented players who actually call inc's and respond.

 

And I am rapidly becoming convince that premade players only want to face pugs so they can grab easy wins. No one in this thread is againts premade, what op and many are saying ,that premade need their own queu, period

 

 

/THREAD

[Atramar]

And I am rapidly becoming convince that premade players only want to face pugs so they can grab easy wins. No one in this thread is againts premade, what op and many are saying ,that premade need their own queu, period

 

 

/THREAD

 

people need to learn how to play as team and stop crying over being out played.

Only difference between avarage premade and avarage pug is that people in premade are trying to win and doesn't want to let down his team mates. standard pug doesn't give a rats behind.

How many times have you seen people not callings incs? How many times have you seen person from premade not calling incs? If a guy whom I group with ignores objective, I call him on it. Either he will learn sooner or later, or I will stop grouping with him. What can I do with pug? With pug I will get chat flamed, or in worse case scenario, player will sabotage whole game just cause I called him out not doing objective.

 

There is a player on my server who I don't like much, cause he's a jerk, but, when he's teamed he playes quite well. However, when he's not grouped, he's total crap. I've asked him why once. He replied 'cause it's a pug, no one cares, doh'.

 

If they make another bracket so 55 and 55 team (so we will have 3 brackets already), I hope they will add 'solo que, join premade bracket if possible', cause even when I'm solo pugging (most of the times, I might get team once/twice per week tops), I hate playing with people who don't care, and preffer to play with big boys, not 10-54 lowbie bracket.

 

what will be next? newbie bracket 55, solo 55, newbie team 55, team 55, newbie ranked,ranked? how many brackets do we need. we already have 10-29,30-54. are 44 levels not enouth for people to learn how to play? we only have 5 warzones... imagine what it would be if we had 9

Edited August 5, 2013 by Atramar

[Doomsdaycomes]

And I am rapidly becoming convince that premade players only want to face pugs so they can grab easy wins. No one in this thread is againts premade, what op and many are saying ,that premade need their own queu, period

 

 

/THREAD

 

Wow. A Period! and a /THREAD.

 

Guess that settles that...

 

There is another answer for the lopsided matches that exist today. It's called matchmaking, and I think I've heard just about every lame excuse against matchmaking (and for a split queue) there is in the book. None of them can hold any water. Give us matchmaking, and any legitimate complaint about "premades" pretty much dries up.

 

Finally, if you feel you are being farmed, as long as the opposition isn't cheating (fyi, 4-man's aren't cheating) I suggest the problem lies in you.

[Arkerus]

Their post was specifically directed at the use of oQueue. Look it up, it's spelled oQueue for a reason.

 

Now if you have some proof they split the queue's like that, I'd love to see it because I can't seem to find any. From what I can see their largest acceptable party is still their standard 5, and there is not solo-only queue.

 

 

On a side not, it is kind of interesting right after their big "article" they dropped more subs then ever in a quarter.

 

I'll have to dig it out of their forums but groups of 5 or more get placed into a special queue which attempts to place them against other premades. They didn't just use a count of 10 because guilds were just splitting into 2 and abusing the system.

 

The fact remains blizzard knew it was a problem and it needs to be dealt with here.

[Doomsdaycomes]

I'll have to dig it out of their forums but groups of 5 or more get placed into a special queue which attempts to place them against other premades. They didn't just use a count of 10 because guilds were just splitting into 2 and abusing the system.

 

The fact remains blizzard knew it was a problem and it needs to be dealt with here.

 

I'll wait for the evidence there's a solo (or even a 1-2) special queue.

 

In the mean time, the fact doesn't remain Blizzard blah blah blah. The only article of Blizzard fixing anything like it is Blizzard fixing the abuse caused by oQueue. They haven't and won't speak against people grouping within their acceptable parameters.

[Sharee]

[nevermind. not worth it.] Edited August 6, 2013 by Sharee

[Arkerus]

I'll wait for the evidence there's a solo (or even a 1-2) special queue.

 

In the mean time, the fact doesn't remain Blizzard blah blah blah. The only article of Blizzard fixing anything like it is Blizzard fixing the abuse caused by oQueue. They haven't and won't speak against people grouping within their acceptable parameters.

 

Patch 5.1 - no automated queuing for groups of 5 or more.

 

In patch 5.1, we resolved some issues regarding how Addons interact with the Battleground queue system. It is no longer possible to automate queuing for standard or random Battlegrounds in groups larger than 5. We decided to make this change in order to improve the experience for all players who are queueing into random groups normally and expecting to face similarly random groups, only to find themselves crushed by a full team of coordinated opponents.

 

We understand that players want to enjoy coordinated team play, and we invite those players to queue into Rated Battlegrounds or play Wargames to have that experience. Players can continue to use Addons to queue for Rated Battlegrounds as well..

 

The issue with groups over 5 people queueing up is just as Daxxarri states, that pre-made groups have such an inescapable advantage over random groups. The enjoyment of the genuinely random group facing the pre-made in a battleground is massively hindered, and Daxxarri is quite right when saying that players who want to play as a pre-made group should move into rated battlegrounds and wargames, or arenas.

 

Patch 2.4.0 (2008-03-25): Battleground matchmaking for premades has been tightened, so it is more likely that a premade will meet a group with similar gear. This can result in longer queue times for premades.

 

As a note, premades in wow kick in at 5 people. In this game I would consider it 3 or 4 people since our WZs are only 8v8.

 

Read it and weep.

 

Here is my search string for the internet, you champion of not searching cool guy.

 

"blizzard wow PvP queues premade"

 

 

Blizzard has been segregating premades since patch 2.4.

 

 

Next?

 

You can argue semantics all you want but the number 1 product on the block has CLEARLY stated that the spirit of competition is placing premades in premade groups and solo players and small groups in their own queue.

 

What more do you want?

Edited August 6, 2013 by Arkerus

[Sideblaze]

Eh, The OP has a point, I find the "If you can't beat a premade make one" argument to be childish and really impractical.

 

Either seperate the ques so that random PUGs go against random PUGs and Premades against premades, Or have the weekly take 18 losses to complete. (x2 win)

 

In a video game, Fun for the players takes precedence over what your little PVP guild wants to do. If you are making other player hate PVP, don't complain when we restrict your ability to do that.

[Doomsdaycomes]

[nevermind. not worth it.]

 

I would have preferred a: "I read the article and realized what you were talking about and you are correct."

 

but... if this is you bowing out with grace I'll be happy to allow it. Till next time.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Eh, The OP has a point, I find the "If you can't beat a premade make one" argument to be childish and really impractical.

 

Either seperate the ques so that random PUGs go against random PUGs and Premades against premades, Or have the weekly take 18 losses to complete. (x2 win)

 

In a video game, Fun for the players takes precedence over what your little PVP guild wants to do. If you are making other player hate PVP, don't complain when we restrict your ability to do that.

 

What about a matchmaking system that matches players of similar (skill, gear, win/loss, something!) level as much as possible, possibly even including queue type. Only after x time does it begin to create a "unfair match" though it continues to sort the teams as best it can.

 

That way when pop's are high, you'll get pug vs pug, or atleast skill vs skill (maybe with a modifier for groups?) and when pops are low, no one has to sit out cause "omg they want to play with friends!"

 

No, that couldn't possibly be a better solution, and damn those players with friends for actually being competitive in a *********** competition! Shall I let you get back to building sandcastles in my volleyball court?

[Turn-XGundam]

premades themselves are not the problem, it's just they always have healers. meanwhile my team is 8 dps champs.

if anything thats OP is heals.

[Zunayson]

premades themselves are not the problem, it's just they always have healers. meanwhile my team is 8 dps champs.

if anything thats OP is heals.

 

They do not always have healers. This can be fixed easily with a role system, though your queues will most likely suffer.