NERF : Guardian Tanks

[Railbourne]

+1 @ Spamfritter for saying what so many fail to realize.

[fire-breath]

Can we pretty please stop necro'ing this post? Its almost 1 year old now. If any of you is still desperate to nerf guardian tanks make your own post.

[Methoxa]

We have recently cleared SV HM with a 31k guardian duo without bonus set or any optimizations

 

Hp pool doesnt say much about the quality of the tanks. Defstats are important.As the hp pool seems to make the difference between a good equipped tank and a bad one for you it shows how little understanding you have regarding tanking.

 

faceroll class where you get a significant advantage compared to other classes, especially Shadow

 

Shadows take the least dmg on most bosses

Shadows have phase walk (increased healing) 3%less dmg debuff on boss and Force shroud ( selfcleanse).

Furthermore shadows have stealth and can battlerezz

Shadows are a little bit more spiky, thats the only negative aspect of an assasin

 

We have recently cleared SV HM with a 31k guardian duo without bonus set or any optimizations

 

SV HM can be 4 manned, really not the challenging op

Bonus for Guardians are not as great as the bonus for shadows/PT. Therefore its not that important

Optimization is not really needed for an op that was supposed to be cleared in 69/72 equip

 

Not your tanks were imba, but you had good healers because juggernauts still take the most of dmg of all tank classes even when using their Def CD's on cooldown

 

operations bosses should have different mechanics for different tanks (and even tanking combinations).

 

Really? You know how despaired i was when i saw that no Juggernaut/Guardian could ever possibly kite Grobthok in NIM under the crane to avoid the pipe smash? Grobthok is a no go for a juggernaut Tank because Juggernaut are the only ones who can not move faster. So i am either not able to join the raid for the boss or i am stuck with the adds. Operation bosses have mechanics that are sometimes onliy possible to avoid with a certain setup.

 

I have changed my tune as this is the method which gives results. Shadows were nerfed all the time due to the daily cries in the PVP section

 

The last big change of Sins was in 2.5 i believe. It was not a nerf. Many ppl fail to understand that. You got your selfheal removed. But you got more dmg mitgation with that 4% less dmg buff. You got more armour. Getting roughly 12% less dmg. Ofc this doesnt take effect in Storymode operations as bosses hit for like 1000k dtps. But in HM/NM bosses do 2k-3k.The buff reduced your spkiness which was in my eyes needed and reducing the overall dmg you get which were in my eyes not needed bc assasins were and still are the tanks receiving the least overall dmg. Read Kbn's spreadsheets and his tank Mitgation calculations. Sins #1 , PT's #2 , Hybrid Jugger #3 , Immortal Jugger #4. Hybrid Juggernauts can rarely be good bc of their bad tps ( 50% less tps than an immiortal jugger).

 

A poorly geared Guardian is able to clear SV/TFB HM 8 man 16 man without any issues

 

A bis Guardian is also able to not clear SV/TFB HM 8 man 16man. It all depends on the team. Furthermore i have done several raids with a 29k pt tank ( SV Hm 8 , DP + DF Hm 8) wihtout any prroblems.

 

Saber reflect is an OP skill that is not bugged like resilience. Saber reflect does not have the 200% and 5% chance to be hit

 

You are comparing 2 different skills. ( I guess that resilience is Force shroud). Force shroud can cleanse you, it can make you basically invulnerable for a short duration. Saber reflect can not cleanse the juggernaut and it only makes him invulnerable against randed/Force/tech attacks. Force shroud therefore would be far better than saber reflect if it didnt have any downside. So its downside is that it has a chance to miss.

 

Guardian defensive cooldowns are OP. Guardians are the only tanks that have a 100% survival chance at Sunder in HM taking two 'The End' in a row

 

So does a pt if he uses his Def cd and his self heal

 

In addition your comparisons are based on runs to S&V Hm . When you go Fortress NM youll see your shadow tank to receive 100 dtps less than the juggernaut tank at bosses where it counts ( Draxus / Brontes). Shadows can cleanse the debuff that occurs at the fight against Nefra, they can use phase walk teleport to kite the subteroth at draxus without taking much dmg, they can kite Grobthok under the crane ( Juggernauts cant bc the crane is faster than the juggernaut). So both classes have their benefits, but they are nowhere too good. Wanna have more examples of bosses where sins are better? Look on dulfy bossguides. Most times she writes which tank would be the best, often its a sin/pt combo. No juggernaut. Ok these guides have been written before 2.7. But what changed in 2.7 for the juggernaut? The only thing is that enraged defense now doesnt come with a detaunt and heals a little more. I heal myself for about 20-25 k . I am Bis equipped. This heal is not near being op.

 

A poorly geared Guardian is able to clear SV/TFB HM 8 man 16 man without any issues. The vanguard follows closely but the shadow needs to be BIS and played at a very high skill cap to actually stay alive

 

If you need to be bis in order to survive SV/TFB HM you or your healers are definately doing something wrong. In Bis equip you should do DF NM. Your totally exaggerating. Cleared TFB NM and S&V NM with a sin cotank who was not bis ( mostly 75). He took less dmg than me and did more dmg ( Tankdmg was important before DF+DP got released) . Furthermore he was able to kite sunder ( Juggers have problems with it). I am asking myself why are my Def cd's that op so that i still take more dmg when i use them on cd at the right time? I think because they are in no way near op. 2 or 3 weeks it was said in the tanking forum that Sins have the best Dcd's, now suddenly its the Juggernaut. You think we dont deserve a buff? I mean honestly, ED is not really a buff, using ED on cooldown gives you like 180hps. WOW!!!! This will totally save you in a HM/NM fight.

 

After 2.0, Juggs are far stronger than before and are arguably the strongest tanks overall if you know how to use their cooldowns. If you don't, they are just a worse version of a Powertech. Their damage profile is significantly more spiky than a Powertech and they require significantly more healing than any other tank (especially Assassins who require the least from healers). That is their weakness. Their main strength lies in the fact that they have best defensive cooldowns now. Other than that, they don't have any special strengths over Assassins (both classes have good utility with Assassins being a little better) and the current tank balance is much better than it has been in the past. Tank damage and threat is pretty much even now (with some slight favoring to Assassins again).

 

yes and totally agree.

 

Your argument is *seriously* "Guardians sucked before so they deserve to be incredibly strong right now"? The *only* issue that Guardians had pre-2.0 was damage/threat, and, because it was damage/threat, it wasn't even a major issue.

 

Guardian were not buffed because of the pre - 2.0 fiasko but because of the current pre 2.7 mitgation where juggernauts are the worst class. We take the most dmg. Example : I take about 2723 dtps @nefra NM while my cotank sin takes 2655 ( sin doesnt have FR+RW relic combo he uses an on use defense relic. We both are bis equipped). I take more dtps than the sin while using my def cd's on cooldown. Now i had 138 hps done with Enrage defense. So i took basically less dmg than the sin when calculating my heal into the dtps. The difference is so small and yet you say guardians are incredibly strong? Read Kbn tank mitgation spreadsheet.

 

Furthermore you say in your thread that Sins have to get their spkieness fixed. Post 2.5 i never saw that a sin was a one hit except maybe for Kephess NM, but you know what, i tanked it with bis equipped and got one shotted. So even a Juggernaut can be spiky like hell.

 

For Guardian/Juggs:

 

Step 1: Saber Reflect

Step 2: Laugh as you have all of the threat you need thanks to up front threat and damage reflection.

 

Nice post, you know what you dont take this discussion seriously then go to hell, because that post was unneeded. Even with saber reflect dps can steal you the aggro. I open fight with about 5k tps (wihtout Saber reflect). Sins have 7k pts can have 7k. When i use saber reflect i climb over 9k tps. Again a small difference but yet you totally exaggerate because sins have the best Tps in fights longer than 20seconds. Most sin tanks can have 5k tps sustained while Juggernauts fall behind with about 4k tps. And to block your next argument, yes i do know how to play my class. I do know my rotation and how to max it. Did 1.5k dps ( 3.7k tps) on Nefra NM while the sin cotank did 1.2k and yet he got more tps than me.

 

Saber Reflect is up for *every* set of adds and turns keeping aggro into a joke

 

1min cooldown, mostly adds spawn more often. Btw. Sins Wither is also great for adds and turns keeping aggro into a joke.

 

Gonna cut it here not anymore motivated to see through stupid comments. Try to bring the discussion to a more constructive discussion and maybe BW will read it. But with those childish threads i can understand why BW left the forums long agp

[fire-breath]

rant

 

Methoxa I know you are better than this.

a - you are reacting in great detail on a year old necro'ed post

b - since when is force shroud resisting all damage? Its only force tech. The downside therefore is that it does nothing against ranged/melee and that it has a chance to fail

 

Regarding if guardians are OP or not. This whole discussion is pointless and has zero value until someone makes a new post or leafy makes a comment that his post is still relevant in his eyes.

[AAAAzrael]

Really? You know how despaired i was when i saw that no Juggernaut/Guardian could ever possibly kite Grobthok in NIM under the crane to avoid the pipe smash? Grobthok is a no go for a juggernaut Tank because Juggernaut are the only ones who can not move faster. So i am either not able to join the raid for the boss or i am stuck with the adds. Operation bosses have mechanics that are sometimes onliy possible to avoid with a certain setup.

 

Guardian tank kiting NIM Gobthok for you. It's also an ALT (player's main is a sentinel). Just spec for speed buff on guard and time it well.

[Kawabonga]

..

Shadows take the least dmg on most bosses

Shadows have phase walk (increased healing) 3%less dmg debuff on boss and Force shroud ( selfcleanse).

Furthermore shadows have stealth and can battlerezz

Shadows are a little bit more spiky, thats the only negative aspect of an assasin

..

Really? You know how despaired i was when i saw that no Juggernaut/Guardian could ever possibly kite Grobthok in NIM under the crane to avoid the pipe smash? Grobthok is a no go for a juggernaut Tank because Juggernaut are the only ones who can not move faster. So i am either not able to join the raid for the boss or i am stuck with the adds. Operation bosses have mechanics that are sometimes onliy possible to avoid with a certain setup.

..

The last big change of Sins was in 2.5 i believe. It was not a nerf. Many ppl fail to understand that. You got your selfheal removed. But you got more dmg mitgation with that 4% less dmg buff. You got more armour. Getting roughly 12% less dmg. Ofc this doesnt take effect in Storymode operations as bosses hit for like 1000k dtps. But in HM/NM bosses do 2k-3k.The buff reduced your spkiness which was in my eyes needed and reducing the overall dmg you get which were in my eyes not needed bc assasins were and still are the tanks receiving the least overall dmg. Read Kbn's spreadsheets and his tank Mitgation calculations. Sins #1 , PT's #2 , Hybrid Jugger #3 , Immortal Jugger #4. Hybrid Juggernauts can rarely be good bc of their bad tps ( 50% less tps than an immiortal jugger).

..

You are comparing 2 different skills. ( I guess that resilience is Force shroud). Force shroud can cleanse you, it can make you basically invulnerable for a short duration. Saber reflect can not cleanse the juggernaut and it only makes him invulnerable against randed/Force/tech attacks. Force shroud therefore would be far better than saber reflect if it didnt have any downside. So its downside is that it has a chance to miss.

..

In addition your comparisons are based on runs to S&V Hm . When you go Fortress NM youll see your shadow tank to receive 100 dtps less than the juggernaut tank at bosses where it counts ( Draxus / Brontes). Shadows can cleanse the debuff that occurs at the fight against Nefra, they can use phase walk teleport to kite the subteroth at draxus without taking much dmg, they can kite Grobthok under the crane ( Juggernauts cant bc the crane is faster than the juggernaut). So both classes have their benefits, but they are nowhere too good. Wanna have more examples of bosses where sins are better? Look on dulfy bossguides. Most times she writes which tank would be the best, often its a sin/pt combo. No juggernaut. Ok these guides have been written before 2.7. But what changed in 2.7 for the juggernaut? The only thing is that enraged defense now doesnt come with a detaunt and heals a little more. I heal myself for about 20-25 k . I am Bis equipped. This heal is not near being op.

..

If you need to be bis in order to survive SV/TFB HM you or your healers are definately doing something wrong. In Bis equip you should do DF NM. Your totally exaggerating. Cleared TFB NM and S&V NM with a sin cotank who was not bis ( mostly 75). He took less dmg than me and did more dmg ( Tankdmg was important before DF+DP got released) . Furthermore he was able to kite sunder ( Juggers have problems with it). I am asking myself why are my Def cd's that op so that i still take more dmg when i use them on cd at the right time? I think because they are in no way near op. 2 or 3 weeks it was said in the tanking forum that Sins have the best Dcd's, now suddenly its the Juggernaut. You think we dont deserve a buff? I mean honestly, ED is not really a buff, using ED on cooldown gives you like 180hps. WOW!!!! This will totally save you in a HM/NM fight.

..

Guardian were not buffed because of the pre - 2.0 fiasko but because of the current pre 2.7 mitgation where juggernauts are the worst class. We take the most dmg. Example : I take about 2723 dtps @nefra NM while my cotank sin takes 2655 ( sin doesnt have FR+RW relic combo he uses an on use defense relic. We both are bis equipped). I take more dtps than the sin while using my def cd's on cooldown. Now i had 138 hps done with Enrage defense. So i took basically less dmg than the sin when calculating my heal into the dtps. The difference is so small and yet you say guardians are incredibly strong? Read Kbn tank mitgation spreadsheet.

..

Furthermore you say in your thread that Sins have to get their spkieness fixed. Post 2.5 i never saw that a sin was a one hit except maybe for Kephess NM, but you know what, i tanked it with bis equipped and got one shotted. So even a Juggernaut can be spiky like hell.

..

Nice post, you know what you dont take this discussion seriously then go to hell, because that post was unneeded. Even with saber reflect dps can steal you the aggro. I open fight with about 5k tps (wihtout Saber reflect). Sins have 7k pts can have 7k. When i use saber reflect i climb over 9k tps. Again a small difference but yet you totally exaggerate because sins have the best Tps in fights longer than 20seconds. Most sin tanks can have 5k tps sustained while Juggernauts fall behind with about 4k tps. And to block your next argument, yes i do know how to play my class. I do know my rotation and how to max it. Did 1.5k dps ( 3.7k tps) on Nefra NM while the sin cotank did 1.2k and yet he got more tps than me.

 

 

Am i understanding you're not being taken into nightmare because you're a juggernaut? Because if that's the case that's bs man. First of all, you don't need to "kite" Grob'thok under the magnet. The locations the magnet is when he does pipe smash can be controlled so he should already be there. Secondly, the adds switch aggro on roar. There isn't one tank "stuck" on adds.

 

Then, Force Shroud only works on Force/Tech, same as Saber Reflect minus Ranged, and it resists, no reflect. Both can be used preemptively. Trading off Ranged+aggro vs purge I'd say they would be pretty much on even grounds if someone decided to FIX THIS.

 

Thirdly, my HPS on nefra is 128 (i'm an assassin in case someone didn't get that). My dtps is 2400, my dps is 1400

and my play was far from perfect. I don't understand why you'd even compare tps on that boss considering it's a taunt spam. I'll ask my friend for his parse and check back

Edited April 13, 2014 by Kawabonga

[fire-breath]

Am i understanding you're not being taken into nightmare because you're a juggernaut? Because if that's the case that's bs man. First of all, you don't need to "kite" Grob'thok under the magnet. The locations the magnet is when he does pipe smash can be controlled so he should already be there. Secondly, the adds switch aggro on roar. There isn't one tank "stuck" on adds.

 

Just to be sure, you can influence the location of the magnet or do you mean that you can guesstimate where the magnet will be?

Based on my groups dps I can fairly accurate interpret where the magnet will be when I'm tanking him. Same goes for the tank in my gunslingers group.

[Kawabonga]

Just to be sure, you can influence the location of the magnet or do you mean that you can guesstimate where the magnet will be?

Based on my groups dps I can fairly accurate interpret where the magnet will be when I'm tanking him. Same goes for the tank in my gunslingers group.

 

It's not a guess, it's extremely precise

[fire-breath]

Meaning that you can not influence the magnet itself? Since thats what you implied in your post ;-)

[Kawabonga]

Meaning that you can not influence the magnet itself? Since thats what you implied in your post ;-)

 

Well not influence the magnet, but having 100% certainty of where the magnet will be every single fight makes it pretty much a non issue

 

Yeah wording sucked oh well peace

Edited April 13, 2014 by Kawabonga

[Vaidinah]

It's fairly simple. Just wait for the magnet to be in the exact same place before you pull and the location of where it will be when Pipe Smash starts will be the same every time.

[DarthSpekulatius]

 

It's fairly simple. Just wait for the magnet to be in the exact same place before you pull and the location of where it will be when Pipe Smash starts will be the same every time.

 

the starting position only matters for the first Pipesmash the two positions where the magnet spawns are fixed so no matter where you pull after the first, the following positions are always the same (can be on the exact opposite but you have lots and lots of time to notice and drag the Boss there)

 

 

more important though, why is this thread still alive? 2.5 made sure Shadows are more then fine.

/e votes for a Buff VG/PT thread (my favorite co-tank )

 

Edited the patch screwup

Edited April 15, 2014 by DarthSpekulatius

[TACeMossie]

 

 

the starting position only matters for the first Pipesmash the two positions where the magnet spawns are fixed so no matter where you pull after the first, the following positions are always the same (can be on the exact opposite but you have lots and lots of time to notice and drag the Boss there)

 

 

more important though, why is this thread still alive? 2.4 made sure Shadows are more then fine.

/e votes for a Buff VG/PT thread (my favorite co-tank )

 

But 2.4 did nothing to shadows.

 

On the other hand... BUFF VG TANKS AND DPS!

I want buffs

 

And devs have said in the questions they are looking at VG DPS (and shadow DPS) next. And hopefully, they will also look at VG Tanks.

 

But yeah, when the Vanguard/Powertech tank is designed to be the toughest tank by default to make up for their lack of DCDs, and then they end up the squishiest Tank (Just check KBNs numbers) you know somethings wrong.

Edited April 14, 2014 by TACeMossie

[KeyboardNinja]

But yeah, when the Vanguard/Powertech tank is designed to be the toughest tank by default to make up for their lack of DCDs, and then they end up the squishiest Tank (Just check KBNs numbers) you know somethings wrong.

 

Given that vanguards/powertechs are the smoothest tanks by a substantial margin and also the ones with the simplest active mitigation, I think the current balance picture is pretty fair (aside from Guardians/Juggs, who are slightly over-advantaged due to the non-scaling nature of Blade Barrier/Sonic Barrier). It's important to remember when looking at my balance numbers that the model I am using is designed to inflate small differences into large numerical differentials. This doesn't make it inaccurate, just very "zoomed in". The absolute differences between the three tanks in terms of damage taken outside of cooldowns are so small that it would be practically impossible to distinguish them between good (or bad) RNG on a single shielded attack on most fights.

Edited April 14, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[DarthSpekulatius]

But 2.4 did nothing to shadows.

 

On the other hand... BUFF VG TANKS AND DPS!

I want buffs

 

And devs have said in the questions they are looking at VG DPS (and shadow DPS) next. And hopefully, they will also look at VG Tanks.

 

But yeah, when the Vanguard/Powertech tank is designed to be the toughest tank by default to make up for their lack of DCDs, and then they end up the squishiest Tank (Just check KBNs numbers) you know somethings wrong.

 

it was 2.5 *shrug* my memory isn't perfect

[TACeMossie]

Given that vanguards/powertechs are the smoothest tanks by a substantial margin and also the ones with the simplest active mitigation, I think the current balance picture is pretty fair (aside from Guardians/Juggs, who are slightly over-advantaged due to the non-scaling nature of Blade Barrier/Sonic Barrier). It's important to remember when looking at my balance numbers that the model I am using is designed to inflate small differences into large numerical differentials. This doesn't make it inaccurate, just very "zoomed in". The absolute differences between the three tanks in terms of damage taken outside of cooldowns are so small that it would be practically impossible to distinguish them between good (or bad) RNG on a single shielded attack on most fights.

 

Shh

im trying to get buffed

[Hockaday]

In 2.8 they're giving Jugs stealth. I mean, I just assume...they took healing away from sins and gave it to jugs.

 

And yes, I know, them taking healing away from sins was a good thing. That's not the point.

[AAAAzrael]

Actually Juggs/Guaerdians got hurt a bit by the current change. Got another defensive cooldown, but many types of creative gameplay are impossible due to no aggro dump. I used to 'tank swap' myself when solo-tanking content when needed on my Guardian and no it's not possible anymore. Aggro dump on AOE taunt mechanic is simply stupid. We actually had a situation in NiM DF when if our guardian DPS could AOE taunt it wouldhave saved the situation.

[cs_zoltan]

Actually Juggs/Guaerdians got hurt a bit by the current change. Got another defensive cooldown, but many types of creative gameplay are impossible due to no aggro dump. I used to 'tank swap' myself when solo-tanking content when needed on my Guardian and no it's not possible anymore. Aggro dump on AOE taunt mechanic is simply stupid. We actually had a situation in NiM DF when if our guardian DPS could AOE taunt it wouldhave saved the situation.

 

Stance dance, 'nuff said.

[AAAAzrael]

Possible, but good way to die without shield active.

[Spamfritter]

Stance dance, 'nuff said.

 

Impractical. It doesn't take a lot of time but you dump your rage pool when you change forms. And as the above person said, you won't have your shield active outside of Soresu form.

[wainot-keel]

Impractical. It doesn't take a lot of time but you dump your rage pool when you change forms. And as the above person said, you won't have your shield active outside of Soresu form.

 

Also, if you wanna be quick and fast, then you must have a keybind for each stance as well. So 3 hitstrokes just to do one thing. It's brilliant. They should do the same for vanguards and shadows. Why would someone be opposed to this ?

[Xtremophile]

Also, if you wanna be quick and fast, then you must have a keybind for each stance as well. So 3 hitstrokes just to do one thing. It's brilliant. They should do the same for vanguards and shadows. Why would someone be opposed to this ?

 

'Nuff said

Edited May 31, 2014 by Xtremophile