NERF : Guardian Tanks

[Sangrar]

Here is what I am hearing ( no offense to you or anyone else in this thread) we should nerf guardian/juggernaut tanks so that way they are as bad or even worse than shadow/assassin tanks and even vanguard/powertech tanks so that was no one will be good at tanking and in operations will by extension become harder that hard mode really becomes nightmare mode to some groups when fighting bosses that need the tank to aggro constantly while withstanding damage.

Please get buffs for shadow/assassin tanks, don't bring us down so we are all bad together

[Aetideus]

And how does this call for nerfs help your class preform better? I should think that considering how BioWare's track record in regards to nerfs that you shouldn't want to nerf any of the classes unless the can solo tank whole NiM ops, because quite simply they can't get them right. They don't just nerf a class to being in line with its peers. They flat out take that class and flat out reduce their viability. You Shadows should understand that, Vanguard DPS should understand that.

 

We want to bring you guys up, but spreading around this hate quiet frankly should be beneath you and can alienate those who actually would otherwise be on your side.

 

I am no Assin but in Arenas the Assin tanks are roflstombed, so some disappointment is not unanticipated...

Edited August 18, 2013 by Aetideus

[ArchangelLBC]

And how does this call for nerfs help your class preform better? I should think that considering how BioWare's track record in regards to nerfs that you shouldn't want to nerf any of the classes unless the can solo tank whole NiM ops, because quite simply they can't get them right. They don't just nerf a class to being in line with its peers. They flat out take that class and flat out reduce their viability. You Shadows should understand that, Vanguard DPS should understand that.

 

We want to bring you guys up, but spreading around this hate quiet frankly should be beneath you and can alienate those who actually would otherwise be on your side.

 

Except if they actually read the thread (they won't) they'd know that from page 1 people were saying "ok actually we want shadow buffs, not guardian nerfs, but we're hoping this gets your attention". Admittedly not in post 1. Like I said though, no one has been pretending this hasn't just been a publicity stunt in vain hopes the devs actually pay attention (they won't).

[Riivan]

Throwing tantrums didn't result in any changes. Correlation does not mean causation and you would do well to learn that simple rule. If you need any further proof, what has the incessant whining given you? You all are on just about every thread that involves tanking or tank classes.

 

Stop acting like entitled, belligerent infants and be respectful, helpful and patient. There's a development plan in place and just because it doesn't operate as quickly as you want doesn't mean they're not listening or intending to help.

 

It's frustrating not getting answers I understand, but you are not the only class in need of changes.

[Sith-Viscera]

A while back the gaming industry used to pride itself with a high level of competent employees. As time went by and economists took over the world to milk people for a lot of money and do as little as possible, quality control and quality programming has gone down the drain. To wait half a year for a change in a broken class also shows ignorance and incompetence. Sure guardians waited a year for a threat fix and shadows all of a sudden have to wait a year to survive a boss. Same thing really . Class balancing suffers cartel market thrives. This could be the new SWTOR advert!

 

High level of COMPETENCE, is truly a thing of the past. When one can not even get a simple food order right at any drive thrus or eat in Restaurants, it is, a SAD SAD DAY!

 

How hard is it to take an order at a well known taco joint (names will be withheld) for 6 hard shell tacos with meat and cheese only and stated right after that, ABSOLUTELY no LETTUCE. Then i even state why , because my kid is allergic to the stuff, so please get it right, and Thank You.

 

Now i paid at the window now i move up to second window, i'm handed the bag, i move my vehicle to the parking lot where i check the contents and, WOW! THEY SCREWED IT UP! Lettuce all over them. So instead of having them fix it and still keep my money, i made them give me my money back they kept the food and i went somewhere else. Of course this happens quite often at the same places over and over again.

 

Thats just one example of INCOMPETENCE at these so called places of businesses.

Point is they can't get a simple food order right at food joints. Do you really think they can get things right with something as complexed as game coding and creating a game and get it right, the first time?

[kennethdale]

High level of COMPETENCE, is truly a thing of the past. When one can not even get a simple food order right at any drive thrus or eat in Restaurants, it is, a SAD SAD DAY!

 

How hard is it to take an order at a well known taco joint (names will be withheld) for 6 hard shell tacos with meat and cheese only and stated right after that, ABSOLUTELY no LETTUCE. Then i even state why , because my kid is allergic to the stuff, so please get it right, and Thank You.

 

Now i paid at the window now i move up to second window, i'm handed the bag, i move my vehicle to the parking lot where i check the contents and, WOW! THEY SCREWED IT UP! Lettuce all over them. So instead of having them fix it and still keep my money, i made them give me my money back they kept the food and i went somewhere else. Of course this happens quite often at the same places over and over again.

 

Thats just one example of INCOMPETENCE at these so called places of businesses.

Point is they can't get a simple food order right at food joints. Do you really think they can get things right with something as complexed as game coding and creating a game and get it right, the first time?

 

...What does Taco Bell messing up your order have to do with SW:tOR? You kind of try to tie this in by saying Its all about incompetence when you are talking about two entirely different industries with entirely different levels of education and output.

 

As for Shadows/Assassins, I've about had it with the crying.

 

The patch notes published for the Public Test Server are intended to guide testing. They are not final and are subject to change.

 

Yes, Assassins/Shadows have issues but they are not the only class. 2.4 is still at least over a month and a half away and within two hours of these patch notes being live there was already a thread QQing about how unfair it was that the devs didn't change anything worthwhile for Shadows/Assassins and its just not fair and foot-stomping and tantrum-throwing. Its pathetic. Read that quote again. I can't find it at the moment but there was also a point where the devs stated that the changes on the PTS are primarily for PvP and do not include the PvP changes.

 

So the devs changed a major ability following DIRECTLY an idea that was put forth by the community thus indicating that even though neither Shadows nor Assassins have had their question time that the devs are still paying attention. But lets leave that aside for a moment. Let's leave aside that its been specifically stated by the devs that no hybrid build should out-perform a pure DPS build which would put PT/VG up on the top of their fix-list. Let's also leave aside that changes that were promised to Sentinels are also not listed (Specifically BT/Insp not preventing Fury/Zen from building and Annihilation/Juyo stack length increase) are also not mentioned in the PTS. Lets focus on the idea that the changes listed are meant to GUIDE TESTING. That means that rather than put all the changes they intend to make in what is supposed to be a rather large patch (which oddly doesn't include very much in terms of notes, hmm wonder why that is...) they put only what they want tested to start with. In SPITE of all of this over-whelming evidence that maybe, just MAYBE, getting Phase Walk changed to EXACTLY what was proposed by several members of the community was a GREAT sign that big changes are actually coming for Sins/Shads, the community decided that they would rather continue to just throw a fit that they didn't get their moment in the sun quite yet. Gosh it is SO hard. Wah. Wah. Wah.

 

This entire thread, every current thread discussing this point are simply proof that those minds who claim to want the so-called "balance" back only care about buffing their own pet-class. Go ahead and check, I've proposed viable changes and ideas for every class I have knowledge of and I did it because I truly believe in balance. But when one group claims to want balance but absolutely rages (I've seen several posts saying that people were QUITTING THE GAME, as if one unsubscription from some random guy matters) when another equally hurting class gets a buff instead of them it is ABUNDANTLY clear that "balance" isn't the issue. Its that these people miss when their class was the best. The best at PvP, the best at PvE, the best plain and simple. They won't be happy until things are back to that state of being because if they can't at least acknowledge progress for themselves AND other groups then its crystal clear that what they want is not what the community wants.

 

Here is where Xinika, the Assassin CR proposed pretty much exactly what was done with Phase Walk (minus the removed cast time):

 

Phase Walk's cast time has been removed and can now be used in a similar fashion to Death Field. In addition, this ability no longer goes on cooldown if the buff is removed and the animation delay has also been fixed.

 

30 minutes after the patch notes got posted, the "top" Assassins were already ignoring the big bold red text at the top of the page in favor of seeking their own buffs. Its pathetic.

Edited August 19, 2013 by kennethdale

[IronmanSS]

Anyone know if Leafy read the 2.4 PTS Patch notes and deleted his account? No sign of any amusing antics lately... Edited August 19, 2013 by IronmanSS

[ArchangelLBC]

Throwing tantrums didn't result in any changes. Correlation does not mean causation and you would do well to learn that simple rule. If you need any further proof, what has the incessant whining given you? You all are on just about every thread that involves tanking or tank classes.

 

Stop acting like entitled, belligerent infants and be respectful, helpful and patient. There's a development plan in place and just because it doesn't operate as quickly as you want doesn't mean they're not listening or intending to help.

 

It's frustrating not getting answers I understand, but you are not the only class in need of changes.

 

To quote xkcd: Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it waggles its eyebrows suggestively while pointing and mouthing "over there".

 

Why should I or anyone else in these forums be respectful, helpful, or patient when it comes to the developers? Being helpful, respectful, or patient has not convinced them to do anything but a never ending wall of silence from them. Whining may not get us anything, but neither has being respectful and helpful and patient.

 

And you're right, shadows AREN'T the only class in need of changes. But that's kind of my point in a lot of ways. They are far too often and for far too long silent on issues that are far too important.

 

Personally, this particular issue is more of a "straw that broke the camel's back" kind of thing for me. There are a host of other issues dealing with class balance, and pretty much all of them have been ignored. Not just in the sense that they have refused to comment, which is frustrating enough, but also by the actions they have taken when it comes to actual changes.

 

The devs are no longer entitled to our faith in their development plan. They are no longer entitled to the presumption that they have a plan and know what they're doing. They've spent that good faith capital.

 

It's not that I don't trust them to address this issue. I don't know that I trust them to address ANY issue when it comes to class balance.

[Riivan]

To quote xkcd: Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it waggles its eyebrows suggestively while pointing and mouthing "over there".

 

Why should I or anyone else in these forums be respectful, helpful, or patient when it comes to the developers? Being helpful, respectful, or patient has not convinced them to do anything but a never ending wall of silence from them. Whining may not get us anything, but neither has being respectful and helpful and patient.

 

And you're right, shadows AREN'T the only class in need of changes. But that's kind of my point in a lot of ways. They are far too often and for far too long silent on issues that are far too important.

 

Personally, this particular issue is more of a "straw that broke the camel's back" kind of thing for me. There are a host of other issues dealing with class balance, and pretty much all of them have been ignored. Not just in the sense that they have refused to comment, which is frustrating enough, but also by the actions they have taken when it comes to actual changes.

 

The devs are no longer entitled to our faith in their development plan. They are no longer entitled to the presumption that they have a plan and know what they're doing. They've spent that good faith capital.

 

It's not that I don't trust them to address this issue. I don't know that I trust them to address ANY issue when it comes to class balance.

 

The whining and childishness of these threads isn't going to make devs want to post more. If they come out and say anything more than we're looking into it you'll tie them down to whatever change they first state or rage when it's not the change you want.

 

They have also taken steps with the class reps and questions to address these issues. Focus your energy there and you just might get your concerns addressed. I'll let you get back to your raging though. The vocal minority here has created such a vitriolic and entitled environment I am not surprised the devs shy away from posting.

[Sith-Viscera]

...What does Taco Bell messing up your order have to do with SW:tOR? You kind of try to tie this in by saying Its all about incompetence when you are talking about two entirely different industries with entirely different levels of education and output.

 

As for Shadows/Assassins, I've about had it with the crying.

 

 

Yes, Assassins/Shadows have issues but they are not the only class. 2.4 is still at least over a month and a half away and within two hours of these patch notes being live there was already a thread QQing about how unfair it was that the devs didn't change anything worthwhile for Shadows/Assassins and its just not fair and foot-stomping and tantrum-throwing. Its pathetic. Read that quote again. I can't find it at the moment but there was also a point where the devs stated that the changes on the PTS are primarily for PvP and do not include the PvP changes.

 

So the devs changed a major ability following DIRECTLY an idea that was put forth by the community thus indicating that even though neither Shadows nor Assassins have had their question time that the devs are still paying attention. But lets leave that aside for a moment. Let's leave aside that its been specifically stated by the devs that no hybrid build should out-perform a pure DPS build which would put PT/VG up on the top of their fix-list. Let's also leave aside that changes that were promised to Sentinels are also not listed (Specifically BT/Insp not preventing Fury/Zen from building and Annihilation/Juyo stack length increase) are also not mentioned in the PTS. Lets focus on the idea that the changes listed are meant to GUIDE TESTING. That means that rather than put all the changes they intend to make in what is supposed to be a rather large patch (which oddly doesn't include very much in terms of notes, hmm wonder why that is...) they put only what they want tested to start with. In SPITE of all of this over-whelming evidence that maybe, just MAYBE, getting Phase Walk changed to EXACTLY what was proposed by several members of the community was a GREAT sign that big changes are actually coming for Sins/Shads, the community decided that they would rather continue to just throw a fit that they didn't get their moment in the sun quite yet. Gosh it is SO hard. Wah. Wah. Wah.

 

This entire thread, every current thread discussing this point are simply proof that those minds who claim to want the so-called "balance" back only care about buffing their own pet-class. Go ahead and check, I've proposed viable changes and ideas for every class I have knowledge of and I did it because I truly believe in balance. But when one group claims to want balance but absolutely rages (I've seen several posts saying that people were QUITTING THE GAME, as if one unsubscription from some random guy matters) when another equally hurting class gets a buff instead of them it is ABUNDANTLY clear that "balance" isn't the issue. Its that these people miss when their class was the best. The best at PvP, the best at PvE, the best plain and simple. They won't be happy until things are back to that state of being because if they can't at least acknowledge progress for themselves AND other groups then its crystal clear that what they want is not what the community wants.

 

Here is where Xinika, the Assassin CR proposed pretty much exactly what was done with Phase Walk (minus the removed cast time):

 

 

 

30 minutes after the patch notes got posted, the "top" Assassins were already ignoring the big bold red text at the top of the page in favor of seeking their own buffs. Its pathetic.

 

Because i was stating that the Days of Competence is over regardless of the industries, from Taco Bell to Swtor. Point Being if Taco Bell can't get a SIMPLE food order right, how can we EXPECT BW to get something as COMPLEXED as Coding and Implementing Right, with all their higher EDUCATION. Makes no difference of the type of Business or person or their education, for that matter, Incompetence is, EVERYWHERE........

[ArchangelLBC]

The whining and childishness of these threads isn't going to make devs want to post more. If they come out and say anything more than we're looking into it you'll tie them down to whatever change they first state or rage when it's not the change you want.

 

They have also taken steps with the class reps and questions to address these issues. Focus your energy there and you just might get your concerns addressed. I'll let you get back to your raging though. The vocal minority here has created such a vitriolic and entitled environment I am not surprised the devs shy away from posting.

 

We have yet to see whether the class rep system will produce meaningful changes or is just a sop to quell the tide of mounting dissent within the class forums. Also you can rest assured that I am also on the class forums I'm most concerned about and voicing my concerns there, just in case they actually mean to start a dialog. Of course the classes I care about most (shadow and commando) are the last to go.

 

And if they're afraid of posting answers because the bent of the forums has turned vitriolic that is no one's fault but theirs. I don't need specifics necessarily, but after almost 7 weeks since they said they're looking into it, I think it's not too much to ask if their in-depth discussion (Eric's words, not mine) has even led them to the same conclusions. They can tell us their conclusions without committing to a way to fix it.

 

 

Fact is, the one response we've gotten was in response to something childish and entitled. Specifically Leafy spamming every forum. SO that's months of helpful and constructive posts getting no response, and one instance of trolling getting one. What else are we to think but that bad behavior is more likely to get action than good behavior?

Edited August 20, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[wainot-keel]

We have yet to see whether the class rep system will produce meaningful changes or is just a sop to quell the tide of mounting dissent within the class forums. Also you can rest assured that I am also on the class forums I'm most concerned about and voicing my concerns there, just in case they actually mean to start a dialog. Of course the classes I care about most (shadow and commando) are the last to go.

 

And if they're afraid of posting answers because the bent of the forums has turned vitriolic that is no one's fault but theirs. I don't need specifics necessarily, but after almost 7 weeks since they said they're looking into it, I think it's not too much to ask if their in-depth discussion (Eric's words, not mine) has even led them to the same conclusions. They can tell us their conclusions without committing to a way to fix it.

 

 

Fact is, the one response we've gotten was in response to something childish and entitled. Specifically Leafy spamming every forum. SO that's months of helpful and constructive posts getting no response, and one instance of trolling getting one. What else are we to think but that bad behavior is more likely to get action than good behavior?

 

 

Even if we are to believe this is not a genuine and heart felt ask for a nerf for guardian/juggs, and this is just "trolling to get attention", here people are using part of the community as ammunition for this trolling. This a petty and s***** move no matter what the intentions are.

[Simmerr]

Everyone knows there's no such thing as bad publicity...

 

I approve of this thread

[leto_cleon]

I'm going to have to come in here and eat crow, because I made a typo in my original math, giving Guardians higher base mitigation (specifically shield) than they actually have. Correcting this gives me adjusted numbers:

 

• Shadow: 50.93%
  
• Guardian: 52.85%
  
• Vanguard: 55.33%
  

 

With these corrected numbers, we have some very different results. Specifically, Assassins do have better mean mitigation than Juggernauts. On a boss which does 5200 DtPS pre-mitigation, assassins will take 3.5% less damage than an equivalently geared juggernaut (2251.64 vs 2335.3) and 3% less damage than a Vanguard.

 

The level of pre-mitigation damage required to make an assassin take more damage than a juggernaut is 9564 DtPS, while the level of damage required to make an assassin take more damage than a powertech is 6814 DtPS. There are no bosses which do 9564 DtPS. There are, however, a number of bosses which do more than 6814.

 

This also doesn't strike me as particularly balanced, since I would really rather see a Juggernaut with better mean mitigation than a Powertech to compensate for their slightly higher spikiness. The issue here, of course, is the non-scaling nature of the Juggernaut self-heal.

 

So anyway, I retract what I said earlier about Juggernauts exceeding Assassin mean mitigation. Corrected math shows that there is no current content where this is true.

 

Hmm... so the math says that Shadow currently beats all the time Guardian in DTPS and loses to Vanguards in some fights. Apparently, there is an area where Guardians should have a slight buff, Vanguard a slight nerf and Shadow are still king.

[Snarkasms]

Yes, mean mitigation, which has nothing to do with the current sin/shadow complaints. In fact, to correct the issue, many have suggested reducing sin/shadow mean mitigation so they're no longer king of the hill there.

[Marb]

Yes, mean mitigation, which has nothing to do with the current sin/shadow complaints. In fact, to correct the issue, many have suggested reducing sin/shadow mean mitigation so they're no longer king of the hill there.

 

Yep.

 

I still wonder if they are going to nerf specific bosses though instead of direct class adjustments. Bioware seems to be in lust with their TTK models for tanks. This convinces me that tank survivability was so well balanced before 2.0 due to inflated gear stats and conservative boss damage. The exception being Nightmare Kephess the assassin killer.

[Dragonexadon]

Yep.

The exception being Nightmare Kephess the assassin killer.

Kephees could on shot any tank back in the day if taunt swaps were not done correctly.

[Simmerr]

Yes, mean mitigation, which has nothing to do with the current sin/shadow complaints. In fact, to correct the issue, many have suggested reducing sin/shadow mean mitigation so they're no longer king of the hill there.

 

I'll gladly swap places with juggs on that list if it means we get saber reflect ported to the assassin class, as is without changes.

[Dragonexadon]

I'll gladly swap places with juggs on that list if it means we get saber reflect ported to the assassin class, as is without changes.

 

Well that's fine so long as we can get Phase Wal...err...no , don't touch my Saber Reflect .

[Ancaglon]

Kephees could on shot any tank back in the day if taunt swaps were not done correctly.

The relevant fact is that Guardians/Juggernauts didn't have any worse survivability than the others prior to 2.0. Sure, their threat was significantly inferior, which absolutely did make end-game operations groups prefer Shadows/Assassins or Vanguards/Powertechs, but it wasn't ever a case of "oh, can't use a Guardian tank because he might just randomly drop dead and we wipe".

Edited August 20, 2013 by Ancaglon

[Dragonexadon]

The relevant fact is that Guardians/Juggernauts didn't have any worse survivability than the others prior to 2.0. Sure, their threat was significantly inferior, which absolutely did make end-game operations groups prefer Shadows/Assassins or Vanguards/Powertechs, but it wasn't ever a case of "oh, can't use a Guardian tank because he might just randomly drop dead and we wipe".

 

Guardians were semi bad off pre 2.0. There was a post quoted a few pages back that had many good points in it. That stated it does not matter who was worse off. We know how it is to be the bottom of the list for tanks and have to wait forever for an update. Honestly from game release to 2.0. That's a long time.

 

That said I don't think it is worth comparing how Guardians were pre 2.0 to how shadows are now. The goal is to fix Shadows now. No matter how bad or good guardians were does not change that Shadows do need a buff.

[Bilirubin]

Because i was stating that the Days of Competence is over

lol

 

Can I use this as my sig?

[ArchangelLBC]

Yep.

 

I still wonder if they are going to nerf specific bosses though instead of direct class adjustments. Bioware seems to be in lust with their TTK models for tanks. This convinces me that tank survivability was so well balanced before 2.0 due to inflated gear stats and conservative boss damage. The exception being Nightmare Kephess the assassin killer.

 

It's more likely that tank survivability was more well balanced because the bosses themselves favored a mean mitigation damage profile (yes even kephess, perhaps especially kephess). Pre 2.0 I don't recall there being any particularly huge spikes that you just had to eat. Even when big hits were present they were always broken up, and boss moves which would significantly increase the damage taken by a tank were a mechanics check (i.e. they were there to indicate either a tank swap or a cooldown use).

 

In 2.0 bosses were given a LOT more spike damage tools, so the balance has shifted to favor tanks with good spike damage profiles. Nothing would be wrong with this, and most shadows understand that higher spike damage is the price we pay for better mean mitigation, but in this case the discrepancy is just too high.

[LoRdTyRANTz]

I'll gladly swap places with juggs on that list if it means we get saber reflect ported to the assassin class, as is without changes.

 

Resilience/shroud is far superior to saber reflect in every way. The devs have stated that it is the most powerful ability in the game and in the right hands they are very ever so right. Not only does it work on all force and tech attacks, it cleanses and has a lower cool down compared to saber reflect. Since saber reflect only works on "ranged single target attacks" there is no comparison. Off the top of my head I can easily think of numerous boss fights that shroud cheeses mechanics and saber reflect does not because the attack is an aoe or melee attack. Just to name a few...torborro's cast, kephess' jump, dread guards lighting cast, sunder's the end, thrasher's swipes, titan 6 HM huge grenade, Xeno's tolerance (prevents stacks)...etc. What is the big deal about saber reflect? It is mainly a threat mechanic and can not cheese big hits like shroud can.

[Dragonexadon]

lower cool down compared to saber reflect..

I don't play my shadow as often, but I believe they are both on a 60 second cool-down.