The REAL Most Powerful Sith

[Aurbere]

What excuses? Does it bothers you that Vader may not be "TOP 10 material" as per latest "ground realities" of the mythos?

 

If such a phenomenon was actually happening, I'd be concerned. But since it's not happening, I'm not.

 

And on what basis are you declaring them chumps?

 

We see lots of chumps get insta-killed in two of the three cinematic trailers. The only thing we can call them other than cannon fodder is 'chumps'

 

I doubt Marr would have an issue with those guys.

 

He is a powerful Force-user, but he lacked the condition to hone his talents in a variety of Sith applications after becoming a cyborg.

 

One does not need to shoot lightning and unleash Sith Sorcery to be a powerful Sith. Vader is very clear evidence of this.

 

 

He lost that level of potential after his defeat on Mustafar. Moot point.

 

Not really a moot point. By his defeat on Mustafar he was already the third most powerful Jedi in the Order. He only grew stronger after that duel. Sure he doesn't have the potential anymore, but what power he did achieve was much greater than most Sith.

 

He is more of a telekinetic beast then like a true master of the dark side.

 

Is this because he doesn't shoot lightning or use Sith Sorcery?

 

Yeah right! As if he remained unchallenged during such a long period.

 

It still doesn't prove anything. Take, for example, King Adas.

 

Vader have single-handedly raided some rebellion strongholds at maximum.

 

Your point being what exactly? Not like it matters.

 

You are wrong; Republic "armies" are typically very well structured and large in size.

 

Care to provide numbers.

 

TBH, I doubt that Marr did it single-handedly.

 

Read this:

 

 

Sith command respect, fear, and reverence of all non-Force users in the Empire. Even the lowliest Sith, fresh out of training, is regarded as a god among the people. Decorated Imperial military veterans often bridle at calling a brash young Sith "my lord," but insults are rare, as the vast majority of Imperial citizens tremble from dread and admiration whenever a Sith enters their presence. The consequences for not showing proper respect are swift and brutal. When Sith Lord Praven was insulted by lack of respect shown to him by a stubborn Imperial major, he choked the insolent officer and forced the man's apology before breaking his neck.

 

What's your point? If you are trying to tell me something I didn't already know, then you are failing pretty miserably. But then, that's what's going to happen most of the time.

 

Vader existed in a unique kind of setting; he was a "big thing" in that setting since the Empire he served spanned much of the galaxy; the Republic did not existed; and Jedi were thin in number. In this kind of setting, a powerful Sith Lord will be certainly feared across the span of the galaxy. However, replace Vader with another powerful Sith Lord (in the same setting) and result would be the same.

 

Doesn't change the fact that he was the most feared man in the galaxy.

 

Proof?

 

Don't have it on hand, so you'll have to take my word for it. But even if you do, you'll just ignore it.

 

Bold claim

 

Until you can provide sufficient evidence to the contrary, it's actually a very truthful claim. This:

 

Big deal, if Caedus is superior to Vader? This much is expected of him. A lone Dark Council member can be match for Vader by the way.

 

is a bold claim.

 

So let's sum up, shall we?

 

Vader > Marr

 

Good for me. Good for you? Good. Let's move on.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Found it Aurbere, from Rhyltran no less!

 

"More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking - the power over life and death. There would be no need to fear Vader. No need to have an apprentice other than to honor the tradition Darth Bane had resurrected a millenium earlier."

[Aurbere]

I feel sorry for you Beni. You have to get across the point that Caedus is superior to Vitiate to Legend of all people.

 

I'd join in, but, well, I think anyone could see why.

[Aurbere]

Found it Aurbere, from Rhyltran no less!

 

Ah, Rhyltran. His knowledge aids us even when he is not here.

 

Thank you, Wolf.

[S_W_LeGenD]

In response to Legend's arguments, I'm going to try and keep this succinct with the aforementioned format:

Thanks for the effort.

 

Control: "Control is internal. It is the Jedi's ability to recognize the Force in himself and to use it to his benefit."

 

Allow me to elaborate, the aspect of Control should not be taken literally, it does not simply mean a vague ability to Control the Force, that is just Force ability in general. To quote Wookieepedia:

 

Three main abilities were centered around Control: tutaminis, curato salva, and altus sopor. These three umbrella abilities incorporated many of the abilities Jedi used throughout their service to the Republic.

 

Essentially control encompasses the ability to manipulate ones body, dissapiate energy into ones body, heal oneself and it also refers to one's ability to bolster their own body i.e. Force speed, Force valor etc.

 

Here is a more comprehensive list of the abilities it encompasses: Alchaka, Art of Movement, Breath control, Center of Being, Detoxify Poison, Flashburn, Force Body, Force Enlightenment, Force ghost, Force healing, Force speed, Force stealth (Also known as Force Concealment), Hibernation trance, Morichro, Tapas, Cloak of Shadow.

Ok! This have been enlightening.

 

Control is the ability to Control oneself, and therefore relates to internal, bodily powers. None of which that you put forward falls under these categories I'm afraid, so no, the Sith Emperor does not massively outgun Caedus.

 

In light of that, I reaffirm that Caedus is considerably superior to the Sith Emperor in terms of Control - specifically through his mastery over the ability to manipulate his body, and hide himself through the Force. Both demonstrations of these abilities are unprecedented.

Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) could conceal the identities of his "children" (thousands of individuals spread in different worlds) on the whole from the Jedi Order for many centuries; he wouldn't have a problem effectively concealing himself with the Force. In addition, he eventually created and used vessels (Voices) to communicate with other individuals. Why overlook these feats / talents of Tenebrae?

 

We can't fault Caedus for not being an infallible demi-god - nobody is perfect. Despite this however his mastery over foresight remains unprecedented. No Force user, not Revan, not Traya and not Duron have been able to predict the future and look into the past with such accuracy. Sure they have had spontaneous and semi-spontaneous visions but this falls considerable short of being able to predict the future and will and choose what part of the future you see. Noting that Traya was only able to do this when empowered by the Trayus Core.

Caedus might be best in this aspect but the fact remains that some other Force-users have foreseen future events with high accuracy. I would appreciate examples related to Caedus's foresight though.

 

The Emperor's abilities have been explored enough to know that they are lacking. We cannot simply make the assumption that the duration of his Empire points to exceptional ability in foresight. Remembering that the Emperor as spies everywhere i.e. the Imperial Guard, the Children, the Hands, the Wrath etc. Indeed his foresight was not strong enough to see Revan's attack coming, or even his presence on the planet, he didn't see the betrayal and deceit of the 2nd Dark Council until Scourge informed him and he only foresaw his death at the hands of the Hero of Tython through the Voss. We certainly do not have the grounds to argue he is superior to Caedus.

Well, by this logic, Sidious didn't foresee the attempts of the Jedi to assassinate him, Vader's betrayal and the threat posed by Luke and Leia in unison. So should we assume that he lacks in sense aspect too?

 

Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) was very vigilant in the absence of his powerbase; the first known rebellion of the Dark Council forced him to consider establishing his personal powerbase which would serve as an extension of his striking capabilities and also his senses.

 

Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) did experienced visions of the future events; he foresaw the victories of Sith Lord Nankrang in his campaigns, as an example. He was also able to sense dreams of his apprentice even when she put herself in stasis. Yes, he took interest in understanding the prophetic abilities of the Voss species and studied a Voss subject to further hone his prophetic abilities; he then foresaw his own downfall. In addition to this, Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) manage to communicate with HoT in the form of vision to the Jedi with sheer force of his will and conveyed to him below message perhaps:

 

"I see futures in you. Futures I will not allow. Your future ends here."

 

In light of that, I also reaffirm that Caedus remains considerably superior to the Sith Emperor in terms of Sense. The Emperor may have possessed a level of ability, but the majority of sources point to his ability being lacking. Whereas Caedus was able to predict the future with unprecedented accuracy, something the Sith Emperor likely sought after.

You have underestimated Sith Emperor in this aspect. See above.

 

1. Telekinesis: when the Sith Emperor collapsed the Dark Temple it was not an act of telekinesis, but a willed explosion of the Sith Emperor's dark side power. However as as Sith Spirit, we cannot include it in his list of abilities. As spirits transcend the plane which we make comparison on, a plane in which one is effectively liberated from their mortal restraints. For example note how Exar Kun as a spirit was able to put Luke into a coma with ease, yet he was never able to do this in life. To assume the Emperor could do what he did in spiritual form when in his body is therefore an unsupported assumption. That said, Darth Vader managed to collapse an entire cathedral, and we know for a fact that Caedus is more powerful than Vader.

Two Dark Council members once destroyed the Citadel on Dromund Kaas in a kaggath they declared to overcome each other; a new Citadel was constructed after this one (stronger this time). Sith Emperor is possibly stronger then the whole Dark Council put together.

 

Also there is an obvious disparity between Revan's encounter with the Sith Emperor, and the Jedi Strike Teams encounter. If the Sith Emperor was truly capable of unleashing such power at a moments notice, why didn't he do so against Revan? Why did he not conjure a Force storm to hold Revan back, then incapacitated him with a single burst of energy? The Jedi Strike Team failed to even reflect his lightning, let alone catch it. Clearly it was a preprepared build up of power, you cannot deny that the Sith Emperor dispatched the Jedi Strike Team with much greater ease than he did Revan and co. The very fact that they had a chance in defeating him solidifies that.

Actually, the second "Revan versus Sith Emperor (Tenebrae)" event is a product of PIS (Plot-induced stupidity). The author granted Revan a graceful exit from this duel otherwise you know the level of ****-storm that can often come from the fanbase of Revan, if he is....

 

Lot of events in the lore are a product of PIS under the garb of storytelling. Abeloth, not killing Luke, Ben and Vestara, is also an example of PIS.

 

Since Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) easily overwhelmed Revan in their first encounter; the former likely underestimated the latter in their second encounter due to the aforementioned reason. When Tenebrae eventually realized that Revan have become a major threat, then he went ballistic on Revan, and would have utterly destroyed him (Revan) but the author saved Revan from this fate by using T3-M4 as the sacrificial lamb.

 

Mind Control: I'll admit, I was being a little harsh on Kaan. But my point is is that he is far from a top-tier Sith Lord of the likes of Caedus, the Sith Emperor, Sidious etc. who most likely eclipse his power quite totally. The disparity between Kaan's and the Sith Emperor's power is likely considerable, so you can imagine what the Sith Emperor would have been capable of in terms of mental manipulation. Simply put, it is quite clear that you don't have to be vastly powerful to dominate the minds of the willing as Kaan was able to do it with ease.

Kaan should still be recognized as a powerful individual at minimum. His failure doesn't reflects badly on him but rather indicates that how much stronger Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) is in comparison to him. These two can be directly compared since both of them attempted to control devastating dark side power and only Tenebrae succeeded. Caedus and Sidious do utterly outclass Kaan in their own ways but I cannot say with certainty that even they could pull off Nathema like feat.

 

Sever Force: we cannot compare long-term force drain with immediate sever force - as the former does not require a breach of barriers while the latter does. As of yet the Sith Emperor has prove himself incapable of severing the Force or Force-sensitives of Ben Skywalker's level and caliber. His abilities in Force drain make up for the shortfall.

We haven't seen Sith Emperor using this technique in combat much unfortunately. Though his "mysterious power" might contain elements of this technique; who knows.

 

As for your other points: we lack the information at hand to judge the Sith Emperor's purge of the Dark Council - all we know if that they were entirely unprepared, making them easier to kill.

Wrong:

 

 

During a violent tempest, Darth Lokess called a secret meeting of her eleven fellow Dark Council members. Under the cover of night, the Dark Council met and heard Darth Lokess describe a brilliant and daring plan to overthrow the Sith Emperor, end his relentless exile, and lead the Empire back to war against the Republic. An army of Sith under the command of Darth Lokess were stationed outside the meeting, ready to slay any Dark Council member who refused. But they all agreed to depose the Emperor.

 

It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of his council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. The last member Darth Lokess, disappeared forever, though for some centuries some claimed her screams could be heard from the bowels of the Citadel.

 

A new council was immediately appointed to replace the traitors. The Emperor had made his point: his will was absolute, and none would oppose him. And though this was not the last time the council would defy the Emperor, his lesson would humble the Empire and its Sith leaders for centuries to come. (SWTORE, Page 156)

 

 

The Sith Emperor is not able to manipulate the environment of an entire world, the lightning storms above Dromund Kaas are an inadvertent result of the already present dark nexus surrounding the planet, which the Emperor only added to.

Wrong again:

 

 

The powerful electrical storms were a physical manifestation of the dark side power that engulfed the entire planet—a power that had brought the Sith back here a millennium before, when their very survival had been in doubt. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

 

 

 

Millennia earlier, those who followed the dark side had learned to harness and shape the Force through complex rituals that could control the mind of an enemy and sometimes even warp reality itself. Much of this arcane knowledge had been lost, but those who managed to unlock even a few of the secrets of the past were often rewarded with a more subtle—though just as potent—form of power.

 

It was rumored that the perpetual storms of Dromund Kaas were the result of the Emperor performing one of these rituals. Scourge didn’t know if that was true, but he knew that Nyriss had gained her place in the Dark Council through her knowledge and understanding of things he could never hope to fully grasp. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

 

 

I can't think of any defensive capabilites the Emperor has shown that are worthy of note,

1. Revan's telekinetic abilities being ineffective against the minions of Sith Emperor (Tenebrae)?

 

2. Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) cocooned himself in the Force to prevent incineration from T3-M4, even though his attention was on Revan and the attack came as a surprise?

 

3. The only (known) way to hurt Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) is via lightsaber.

 

I don't recall the Emperor subduing any Sith Spirits

When he ventured in to the Dark Temple, he forced all of the dangerous supernatural occupants to submission to make this building safe enough for his Imperial Guard to take positions inside. Dark Temple was arguably the most haunted place in the galaxy.

 

and the ability to rule an Empire does not directly indicate anything concerning Force ability.

Wrong! In a Sith Empire, the powers of the leader determine his/her survival.

 

So in light of the above I again reaffirm that Caedus and the Sith Emperor are if anything equals in terms of Alter. With Caedus being minorily superior if any edge were to be given due to his superior ability in telekinesis and Force illusions, while the Sith Emperor is only superior in terms of mind control.

You need to revisit your analysis again because you are have yet to properly comprehend the abilities of Tenebrae.

 

What I'm saying here is that as Caedus has been touted as one of the most powerful Sith Lords in galactic history, and he is therefore in a canonical position to challenge the Sith Emperor who has received similar titles.

 

Indeed the same logic you used to justify the Sith Emperor challenging Sidious' position. These are the "ground realities" of current Star Wars mythos, roll with the latest developments.

Difference is that Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) have relatively superior accomplishments and feats under his belt. Another difference is that the full extent of the abilities of Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) are currently unknown; he is a relatively newer introduction to the mythos and he haven't been explored much in all aspects of the Force in the lore.

 

NOTE: Also, check my post # 600 in page 60 of this thread. Read that entire post as well.

Edited July 31, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[LadyKulvax]

LeGenD I have yet to see you actually make a different argument yet, it's literally the exact same thing but worded differently, making the same statements over and over isn't going to somehow make it work the next 1000th time you put it.

 

Oh and the terms 'ground realities' or 'latest developments' don't reinforce your argument somehow if you believe it does.

 

Something that is canon can only be circumvent by either a higher tier of canon or an active replacement of that same canon source.

 

Like the second Dark Empire sourcebook replaced the first one, it was a direct replacement of the sourcebook.

 

The SWTOR encyclopedia doesn't replace the sourcebooks that state Sidious is the most powerful ever just because it's newer, it doesn't replace any of those sourcebooks and therefore does not contradict what was said in them.

 

Oh and resorting to 'You just don't know what you are talking about' type statements only further decrease the value of your arguments, you are literally baiting like a troll when you make such suggestions.

Edited July 30, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Lugosi]

I really don't want to read through 50 pages. So I am curious. How in the heck did you guys determine that Malgus is more powerful than Bane? I've only read the first SWTOR book, so maybe I'm missing something. But, Bane succeeded in wiping out all the Sith (not very strong Sith, but sith none-the-less) yet Malgus got thrown down a shaft by just a few. These few are very similar to the Bane era Sith, weak, as the dark side of the force is spread out among many, many Sith. Edited July 30, 2013 by Lugosi

[Selenial]

I really don't want to read through 50 pages. So I am curious. How in the heck did you guys determine that Malgus is more powerful than Bane? I've only read the first SWTOR book, so maybe I'm missing something. But, Bane succeeded in wiping out all the Sith (not very strong Sith, but sith none-the-less) yet Malgus got thrown down a shaft by just a few. These few are very similar to the Bane era Sith, weak, as the dark side of the force is spread out among many, many Sith.

 

Malgus is an incredibly strong Sith, who's ability to control his Hate is the strongest seen for thousands of years.... His position was Justified and Debated, don't worry, he deserves it

 

 

Oh, and the Force doesn't quite work like that, it's not like a Slice of pie where the more force users, the less power they have... More like an Unlimited Reservoir, which gives out as much energy as the recipient is worthy of...

[Lugosi]

Malgus is an incredibly strong Sith, who's ability to control his Hate is the strongest seen for thousands of years.... His position was Justified and Debated, don't worry, he deserves it

 

 

Oh, and the Force doesn't quite work like that, it's not like a Slice of pie where the more force users, the less power they have... More like an Unlimited Reservoir, which gives out as much energy as the recipient is worthy of...

 

thanks

[Selenial]

thanks

 

Anytime

[Darth_Omega]

So, our main issue is about Caedus vs. Vitiate.

 

Regarding the purpose of this thread, which is Force powers, I think Vitiate gets the edge.

 

Caedus is a far more deadly enemy, with very similar level of power to Vitiate, lightsaber skill incomparably greater, perhaps he outmatched Sidious at the end, and he is far more clever and cunning. But, sticking specifically to the Force aspect, I think Vitiate is stronger than Caedus.

 

Have to agree here. Sorry, I'm pretty late to this thread, so I'm not starting a new argument, just saying.

 

Since the Sith Emperor's story is still not done, and we probably have yet to see his full capabilities, I think Caedus should get the spot above him, but that could always change later.

[UncleOst]

It's been an amusing ride, this thread. I must say that you've redeemed yourselves by:

 

-placing Vader above Kun

 

-honoring Bane with a spot

 

Caedus is meh in my opinion, but I can see how you tards placed him as high as you did. Nonetheless, a good list...but not a great list.

 

Cheers.

[Selenial]

you tards placed .

 

Completely invalidated your post.

 

Good work.

[marcelo_sdk]

Rayla, you last post about Exar Kun was really good, made me think for a while. But I still think Vader should remain where he is. It's unquestionable that Kun dominated more techniques, but if you take a deep look into Vader's powers, you'll notice that he wasn't limited to TK. As Aurbere said, a powerful Sith doesn't neccesarily needs to use Sith Magic and throw Lightining.

[UncleOst]

Completely invalidated your post.

 

Good work.

 

Purple tards...green tards...yellow tards...all good.

[Selenial]

Purple tards...green tards...yellow tards...all good.

 

The troll is strong in you... But not that strong

[Aurbere]

It's been an amusing ride, this thread. I must say that you've redeemed yourselves by:

 

-placing Vader above Kun

 

-honoring Bane with a spot

 

Caedus is meh in my opinion, but I can see how you tards placed him as high as you did. Nonetheless, a good list...but not a great list.

 

Cheers.

 

The Troll is with you UncleOst, but you are not a Troll yet.

[Selenial]

The Troll is with you UncleOst, but you are not a Troll yet.

 

I love our little moments

[Aurbere]

I love our little moments

 

Me too.

[Aurbere]

Purple tards...green tards...yellow tards...all good.

 

Surely you can do better!

[Selenial]

[Aurbere]

 

[S_W_LeGenD]

Nah, I think I'm reply right now.As does this random Bothan. And he does it with ease. After a few days, if that, of discovering his ability this Sith Magic he was able to conjure illusions of lethal potency. If he could do that, without any formal training, what could he accomplish with a little study? An entire body perhaps, multiple bodies perhaps? Perhaps

The disparity between the two abilities is minor. After a millenia of study into the dark side, anybody would be able to manipulate Sith magic to an advanced level. Knowledge is central to wielding Sith Sorcery, power, while important, is secondary.

Some individuals have natural affinity with a specific talent and they gain proficiency in it in amazing fashion. As pointed out before, Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) acquired certain talents without use of formal training. This doesn't means that we should underestimate the "requirements" of proficiency in such talents themselves.

 

Keep in mind that the talent progression factor of Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) is virtually unknown to a large degree except in case of some of his talents such as Force Drain and Telepathic abilities; Tenebrae often developed certain capabilities quickly depending upon his experiences in combat situations and/or otherwise. For example: He began to create and use Voices after his second confrontation with Revan. In addition, he improved his Foresight abilities after coming in to contact with Voss.

 

Also, it is unclear that since when Tenebrae knew about illusions and to what level he have mastered it; we just know that he utilized this talent during his second encounter with HoT during which he was vulnerable (it makes sense to use illusions under such circumstances to confuse the opponents, but HoT is logically among the most powerful and talented Jedi in the entirety of the mythos and he was aided by his droid). A sourcebook contains the term "Strike Team" to describe the opposition of Tenebrae during his first known defeat. Maybe, certain aspects of canonical developments might be clarified in the future.

 

As for those quotes you provided, I was actually responding to that. None of those quotes directly state that the Sith Emperor was without a doubt capable of reenacting the Nathema ritual without aid. Do they? It is therefore your assumption that he was capable of this.

Those quotes offer solid basis for my assertion; Tenebrae became more powerful after his Nathema feat and it is indirectly applied in those quotes that he might be capable of such mass scale devastation himself (remember the terms "vastly enhanced his capacity as the practitioner of the Force" and "he is stronger now" from different sources?). The possibility is solid in this case since Tenebrae's next plan was of galactic proportions.

 

And no, if the Emperor possessed the strength of 8,000 Sith Lords he would have been able to one-shot them with a bat of his eyelid. Revan would have been incapable of deflecting his lightning, let alone catching it, at all. And against the Hero of Tython in their final duel, the Emperor was unable to subdue the HoT with his lightning. You talk about exceptional circumstances but he'd have to be stripped of all his power to be beaten.

Tenebrae siphoned energies from other individuals to fuel his power, remember? He did this on enormous scale to fulfill several of his objectives; to prevent decay of his biological form; to prevent aging of his biological form; to summon power (sufficient enough) to strike down any kind of adversary he wished to; to perform feats on galactic scale; to perform weather manipulation constantly; to perform many tasks simultaneously and vice versa. This is why the situation is not so black and white. The possibilities were endless for him during this condition; this you need to realize.

 

I am not sure if Tenebrae possessed the capability to handle 8000 Sith Lords in "conventional manner" but his performance against the first rebellious Dark Council (he purged), is greatest display of power for a single individual in combat situation in the mythos. Keep in mind that Darth Lokess also arranged an army to counter any kind of threat to her plan but that army didn't brought down Tenebrae after her fall.

 

Tenebrae may not choose to fight such level of opposition (8000 Sith Lords) in convention manner regardless (this might be too much for any Force-user); he would rather do homework on the basis of his Sith Sorcery based talents. He does have history to succeed in situations which would be unthinkable for others in his shoes. Think of Nihilus versus Kataar inhabitants like scenario.

 

Revan is incredibly powerful Force-user in his own right (acquired proficiency in both the light and dark aspects of the Force and even combined such talents to perform actions that are beyond the scope of many); he played a major role in the downfall of Malak and his exploits on Star Forge are of legendary proportions. Of-course, an individual of his caliber is expected to put up some fight against the TITANS of the mythos. Still Revan was totally outclassed by Tenebrae, as pointed out in another post of mine (# 580; Page 58); this doesn't means that Revan would be totally outclassed by every TITAN of the mythos in combat situation (yes, keep this in mind). Tenebrae, is by far, the most dominating combatant of the mythos (rivaled by a few entities in this aspect perhaps).

 

Also, Tenebrae didn't looked good (as per his standards) during his second encounter with HoT due to his involvement in the ritual of galactic proportions during that time; he was caught off-guard since Scourge figured out that this would be the best time to strike at him and he was correct. You can note that Tenebrae didn't managed to unleash his FL to extreme levels during this fight. This doesn't means that we should underestimate HoT but rather put things in proper context regarding Tenebrae's actual power level and the circumstances of his fall.

Edited July 31, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[UncleOst]

Me too.

 

Yawn.

...get a room you fail-sith.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Actually the neck he snapped was his adoptive father, who was a non-Force sensitive. Zannah on the other hand killed two Jedi using Force crush. The ruler of Medriaas that your refer to, Lord Dramath, was killed when Vitiate was 13 through a variant of what is likely Force drain/Sever Force.

Tenebrae killed Sith Lord Dramath at the age of 10; he met Marka Ragnos at the age of 13 to legitimize his hold over Medriaas.

 

Lol "slap down" isn't the words I would use, but you do have a point about generations and all.

 

EDIT: Anyway I don't think we really need to get hung up on this, being as powerful as Luke is good enough to be above the Sith Emperor and above Sidious. So surely rivaling him, and having the potential to at least match him, elicits a position above the Sith Emperor.

It is not wise to compare Sidious and Tenebrae with Luke in power factor directly; Luke is mortal and natural while the former two are not. How many times I have to point this difference out to you?

 

It also doesn't necessarily make him of the same level or inferior. Like Aurbere said, Darth Vader was more than a dark side prodigy, he was a being born of the Force. We are dealing with an incredibly powerful Sith Lord who has survived all kinds of things, I can't see any DC members being able to put him down.

Vader lost his original potential after his defeat on Mustafar. He could never become a (true) dark side prodigy as a cyborg; he certainly honed his (existing) talents to the best of his abilities with passage of time after becoming a cyborg, but he could not become an advanced level Sith Lord. The story of Vader is not about his power but about a tragedy as per words of GL himself.

 

Oh yes, Darth Nyriss single-handedly... oh wait, this is the Darth Nyriss who got totally ROLFstomped by Revan right? News for you, Vader is considerably more powerful than Revan (dispute this at your own peril) he would crush Nyriss under the foot of his boot. Nyriss being one of the most powerful DC members at the time.

Fantastic level of delusion you harbor in this case. Both Scourge and Meetra are EXPERT duelists and among the "heavyweights" of the mythos. Should I remind you that what kind of opposition Meetra have dealt with personally?

 

So you would say Baras and Satele Shan are of equal levels? This being the same Satele Shan who was twice defeated by Darth Malgus, an effective carbon copy of Darth Vader - except Vader is that much more powerful. So I guess that's another DC member Vader would defeat.

 

Any other challengers?

You failed to acknowledge how potent Satele Shan is with her Force abilities; she literally manhandled Malgus with her Force powers during their encounter in Aldeeran (and she was a Jedi Knight during this time). Yes, Malgus was capable of defeating her but the same is true for Satele; both were capable of defeating each other.

 

Re-watch this fight to refresh your memory: http://www.swtor.com/info/media/trailers/hope-cinematic-trailer

 

Also, Malgus took care of an opponent of Vader's caliber after the aforementioned fight during heavily injured condition; that mysterious Zabrak Jedi Master collapsed two buildings around the position of Malgus (This is definitely Vader level strength at minimum).

 

You need to straighten your facts.

 

Therefore, Darth Baras is capable of handling both Satele and Malgus; and consequently Vader; interestingly, he is not even the strongest Dark Council member in his era. Also, is this the guy who have something to do with mishandling of the entity of Darth Traya? I think so.

 

NOTE: Read all of my responses in this thread, even those which are not directly addressed to you. This is important for you since you are conducting analysis.

 

Vitiate's most amazing feat is Nathema and he couldn't do it on his own, get rid of that and Caedus either has close ground on him in those areas or is better and then has even more abilities and powers on-top.

 

This is raw power and Caedus wipes the floors with Vitiate where raw power comes in, just one standard galactic year before he surpassed Grand Master Luke Skywalker? yeh okay, debate over.

You misrepresent Tenebrae's capabilities in a big way.

 

Vitiate didn't summon power that consumed Medriaas on his own but he certainly controlled that level of power on his own, after it was summoned, to accomplish his first major plan. Also, it has been pointed out in multiple sourcebooks that Vitiate became noticeably more powerful after his first major transformation, so he might be capable of summoning power that consumed Medriaas on his own during this condition. Do the math.

 

In addition, Vitiate have superior showings in combat in comparison to Caedus. Vitiate also have superior showings in the use of certain talents such as Force Drain, Force Lightning and Telepathic abilities in comparison to those of Caedus. Vitiate could summon powers to overwhelm any kind of opposition he had to contend with (under fair circumstances), and could also perform / did perform lot of tedious tasks simultaneously, thanks to his unnatural ways of drawing strength. Vitiate also honed his talents in the use of sense related abilities after studying a Voss subject and he reached a point afterwards that he interacted with HoT in the form of vision with sheer force of his will to convey a message. The full extent of the abilities of Vitiate are actually unknown, so yes, your claim is baseless and this debate isn't over.

 

Caedus is featured in may sources and the list of his talents are huge accordingly; in contrast, Vitiate is a new character and is featured in much less number of sources; we are not likely to get a full glimpse of the capabilities of Vitiate so soon.

 

LeGenD I have yet to see you actually make a different argument yet, it's literally the exact same thing but worded differently, making the same statements over and over isn't going to somehow make it work the next 1000th time you put it./

I am bringing new points to the table with passage of time, in accordance with the responses (to my points) I am dealing with passage of time. Beni's analysis is insignificant.

 

For example:

 

Beni recently stated that Caedus is stronger then Vader who have a feat of collapsing a structure.

 

Now read this:

 

 

Dark Council members Darth Victun and Darth Qalar obliterated the Citadel on Dromund Kaas during an especially violent Kaggath. (SWTORE, Page 170)

 

 

You now realize how powerful Dark Council members can be? And Tenebrae have history of purging whole Councils; he draws strength in unnatural ways and he can summon and unleash power on a scale which is not possible for mortals.

 

Understand?

 

Oh and the terms 'ground realities' or 'latest developments' don't reinforce your argument somehow if you believe it does.

The purpose of the revelations that I am posting is to slowly but surely clarify the "ground realities" of TOR era lore. You should focus on all of these revelations properly.

 

Something that is canon can only be circumvent by either a higher tier of canon or an active replacement of that same canon source.

 

Like the second Dark Empire sourcebook replaced the first one, it was a direct replacement of the sourcebook.

 

The SWTOR encyclopedia doesn't replace the sourcebooks that state Sidious is the most powerful ever just because it's newer, it doesn't replace any of those sourcebooks and therefore does not contradict what was said in them.

This is not the whole case! SWTOR encyclopedia brings new revelations/information on the table (reshapes the entire ancient history to great degree) and in this manner, it puts question-mark on various revelations in the older sourcebooks, because information contained in the newer sourcebook was not available for analysis during the time of the sourcebooks written prior to it.

 

Oh and resorting to 'You just don't know what you are talking about' type statements only further decrease the value of your arguments, you are literally baiting like a troll when you make such suggestions.

I am participating in this debate for a reason; personal victory or defeat does not concerns me; my concern is to prevent misrepresentation of characters.

 

If such a phenomenon was actually happening, I'd be concerned. But since it's not happening, I'm not.

Well, such phenomenon is actually happening; we are witnessing that powerful Sith Lords were not a rarity in ancient times and it is becoming difficult to determine to rank characters accordingly.

 

We see lots of chumps get insta-killed in two of the three cinematic trailers. The only thing we can call them other than cannon fodder is 'chumps'

 

I doubt Marr would have an issue with those guys.

Those individuals are not Sith Lords.

 

Of-course, in a pool of countless number of individuals, major chunk would be fodder. Elites are always small in quantity in the grand picture. Still, significant number of Sith Lords existed in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire in any era which is amazing.

 

One does not need to shoot lightning and unleash Sith Sorcery to be a powerful Sith. Vader is very clear evidence of this.

Talents are the key to "power & skillset progression" with passage of time. This is how Sidious also increased in power; he studied ancient sources of dark arts to acquire new skills and improve his proficiency in his existing skillset with passage of time.

 

Tow key points:

 

 

• Greater number of talents = greater number of ways to influence external environment.
   
  
• Increasing proficiency in talents = increasing effectiveness in the use of talents.
  

 

Vader became restricted in "power & skillset progression" factor after becoming a cyborg; he was no longer an ideal apprentice that Sidious wanted in this condition. This is why Sidious wanted to give both Galen and Luke the opportunities to become his apprentice.

 

Not really a moot point. By his defeat on Mustafar he was already the third most powerful Jedi in the Order. He only grew stronger after that duel. Sure he doesn't have the potential anymore, but what power he did achieve was much greater than most Sith.

I am not sure if he became more powerful afterwards because he had defeated Dooku prior to his cyborg condition and he could not overwhelm Kenobi even during his cyborg condition (Kenobi willingly gave himself up since he was old) and he eventually lost to young Luke.

 

Vader had to re-adjust his talents in-accordance with the "ground realities" of his cyborg condition; he did manage to further hone his command over telekinetic aspects to compensate for his shortcomings in the talents / Force abilities associated with dueling aspects (these shortcomings were the result of his injuries on Mustafar). Vader, once again, became an "effective combatant" in-accordance with his new ground realities with passage of time, as apparent from his clashes with Galen, but since he had personally trained Galen, he was in a good position to fight Galen effectively (much like Obi-Wan was in good position to fight Vader effectively).

 

So situation isn't so black and white.

 

Is this because he doesn't shoot lightning or use Sith Sorcery?

See above

 

It still doesn't prove anything. Take, for example, King Adas.

Not a good comparison. King Adas ruled over Sith natives of Korriban; he was successful in his era for sure. When the Dark Jedi landed on Korriban, they were regarded as "gods" by the same Sith natives. The Sith Empire of Tenebrae offered much more challenging environment to compete for power within. Millions competed against each other for seats in the Dark Council; only the strongest and smartest individuals in the galaxy could survive in the Dark Council for long durations. If Marr wasn't good enough to hold his position under pressure of enormous competition, he would have fallen and replaced by another suitable individual. Do the math.

 

Your point being what exactly? Not like it matters.

He didn't fought armies of the Republic, routing them in the process.

 

Care to provide numbers.

Republic armies are structured like this: Squad < Platoon < Battalion < Division < Army

 

TBH, I doubt that Marr did it single-handedly.

Why? It surprises you that a Dark Council member can be super-strong?

 

 

Darth Marr embodied these principles in the Great War against the Republic as he fearlessly battled on the front lines, fortified Imperial defenses, and held conquered worlds in his unforgivable fists. When a Republic fleet fought to reclaim Korriban, Darth Marr drove them back to defeat. When the Republic attempted to conquer the Sith world of Ziost, Darth Marr destroyed the bold offensive. Tales spread through the Republic of the masked Dark Council member who routed whole armies and deflected assaults more thoroughly than any planetary shields. (SWTORE, Page 174)

 

 

What's your point? If you are trying to tell me something I didn't already know, then you are failing pretty miserably. But then, that's what's going to happen most of the time.

The point that Vader was among the most feared individuals in the galaxy is useless in this kind of debate. Replace Vader with another powerful Sith Lord in his setting, result would the same.

 

Doesn't change the fact that he was the most feared man in the galaxy.

See above.

 

Don't have it on hand, so you'll have to take my word for it. But even if you do, you'll just ignore it.

I have seen the quote posted by OP; it doesn't proves your point. Yes, Sidious, would be concerned about his apprentice surpassing him, but this could not happen with Vader (due to his cyborg condition; reinforced by G-canon ground realities). Sidious continued to hone his skills in the dark side with passage of time because this is what a talented Sith Lord does instead of wasting time.

 

Until you can provide sufficient evidence to the contrary, it's actually a very truthful claim. This:

See above.

 

is a bold claim.

 

So let's sum up, shall we?

 

Vader > Marr

 

Good for me. Good for you? Good. Let's move on.

It is not a bold claim; it is a claim based on merit. Possibility exists of a Dark Council member to be stronger then Vader. Dark Council members are powerful, talented and smart Sith Lords on average (among the most powerful Force-users in the galaxy; among the best of the best in the galaxy) and have the luxury to acquire superior skills in the dark side then Vader ever could in his cyborg condition. Vader, on the other hand, never had to deal with such level of competition (in the Empire he served) from which Dark Council members arose, and therefore, his skills were not as much put to test as those of the Dark Council members on average. Now, my contention is not that Vader is supposed to be inferior to every Dark Council member in history; he could be better then some but he could also be weaker then some. Try to analyze and comprehend this lasted development in the lore properly and you may get my drift.

Edited July 31, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD