The REAL Most Powerful Sith

[Beniboybling]

I'm slowly catching up through this thread but this caught me.

 

Isn't Anakin the Chosen One, not Luke?

 

On a side note, assuming that Anakin hadn't been crippled, wouldn't he theoretically have the potential to become the most powerful force user and duelist ever out of anyone or anything (since he was born purely of the Force). I know it didn't turn out that way so I'm not arguing Darth Vader for #1 or anything, but assuming he had realized his full potential, wouldn't he be undisputable #1 amongst all Jedi/Sith/Other combined?

 

I've got some more questions once I fully catch up but for the time being I just didn't want to forget to ask about this.

Anakin is the Chosen One yes, but according to Lucas Luke Skywalker achieved the potential that Anakin never reached i.e. he achieved the potential of the Chosen One. But yeah, Anakin had the potential to be the most powerful Force user ever. Disputable demi-god blah blah blah.

[TalonVII]

I'm for Bane being #10.

 

Without him, never would of gotten to Sideous. Period. He set forth the chain of events that lead to Order 66 and Sideous destroying the Jedi.

Edited July 29, 2013 by TalonVII

[Aurbere]

The thing about the Sith'ari is that every Sith proclaimed themselves Sith'ari. However, Bane is the Sith'ari.

[Beniboybling]

Could you provide a source for George saying that?

I can't track down the actual quote, but Wookieepedia says the following:

 

Skywalker was skilled in a great number of Force powers, giving him the Force potential to become what his father was supposed to become—the Force potential of the Chosen One.[173][174]

 

The source being:

 

↑ 173.0 173.1 Star Wars: Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back Director's Commentary

↑ Anakin wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.[2]

 

[2] - being the Rolling Stones. So I assume that's an actual quote from an interview.

 

Anyway you make a point about Luke not being born of the Force, but I suspect the quote should not be taken too literally. The quote we have at hand alone doesn't specifically say that Luke Skywalker became just as powerful as the Chosen One, but became what he father should of been i.e. a BAMF Jedi. So logically speaking he probably didn't achieve complete Chosen One levels, but certainly something very close to it.

[Beniboybling]

The thing about the Sith'ari is that every Sith proclaimed themselves Sith'ari. However, Bane is the Sith'ari.

But this isn't ever directly stated, your guess is as good as theirs.

[Beniboybling]

Could you provide a source for George saying that?

He is mistaken, George never said that, sourcebooks did. That said I expect George must of wavered it at some point because the EU has gone and run with it, if you recall those sources I showed you they are numerous. And from the high ups too.

[Aurbere]

But this isn't ever directly stated, your guess is as good as theirs.

 

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, however, makes it very clear that Bane is actually the looked-for Sith'ari, thus confirming the assumptions of many fans

-Wookieepedia

[Beniboybling]

Thanks for providing some quotes. However, I find some of them to be problematic. Not that they should be disregarded, but that the context in which they used is relevant to determining their undisputed, objective truth.

 

1 - The first quote is clearly limited in it's perspective, being a first hand account of Darth Vader. While he's surely educated to some degree in Sith History, it definitely doesn't qualify him to make the claim in the quote represented here.

 

2 - I'd have to know more about the context. If it's a first-hand perspective of Yoda, then it suffers from the same problems as the above quote - probably even more-so due to the fact that he wasn't ever apprenticed as a Sith and likely knew even less of Sith history in relation to Palpatine's power than Vader did.

 

3 - I can't really criticize this quote without knowing the context. Who's the one writing it? On a lesser, perhaps more technical point, "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power" isn't necessarily equivocal to "the most powerful Sith ever".

 

4 - I'd have to ask who is Wheless (lead animator?) and what are his qualifications for determining Star Wars Lore. As far as I kneow, the only person capable of making a definitive, indisputable statement about the Lore of Star Wars is Lucas himself.

 

More importantly though, there's a good chance here that his saying "channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history" is simply an overdramatization of the truth because it sounds like he's just doing a promotional interview for the film. Sure you could take his quote here to literally mean he is saying Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in history, but I don't think that was what he was attempting to convey in that interview and I don't think he was actually going through his mind and considering the ramifications of such a bold claim.

 

5 - This criticism is merely about the quote being said in the present tense. It says nothing about past or future practitioners of the Force's dark side.

 

I'm not saying I've discredited these quotes in any way whatsoever because as a collection, they're all still good evidence that goes to support your argument that Sidious is in fact the most powerful Sith Lord ever.

 

I'm just very skeptical that these quotes guarantee the certainty you seek with indisputable proof such that any further discourse on the subject is rendered meaningless. If there isn't something more concrete, possibly a Lucas confirmation of the matter, I would say the title of most powerful Sith ever is still disputable.

I just remember I never replied to this, bit late but oh well.

 

1 - its actually more of a third-person out of universe perspective commenting on Vader's life - that's not his opinion - well it may of been but its not been represented as such here. However regardless we have to remember that behind every fictional statement, behind every character, is a writer. And those writers can't get away with such comments by passing them off as character perspective.

 

2 - Again just like the previous, its an out-of-universe perspective. All sourcebooks should be considered to be entirely objective. Its not from the first hand perspective of Yoda, just commenting on stage in Yoda's life. And again the same argument as used before.

 

3 - The Complete Visual Dictionary was co-written by David West Reynolds, James Luceno and Ryder Windham - all legitimate Star Wars authors - and its an out-of-universe objective perspective. Not from the perspective of an in-universe character. So it should be considered until the text is updated. Though I see your point concerning technicality, note however that in Star Wars mythos evil is often synonymous with the dark side and by looking to other statements its clear that is what they are getting at.

 

4 - I expect this source would be classed as C-Canon, the third level of canon, which can be overidden by T-Canon (Television canon) and G-Canon (George Lucas canon) not however that there is one continuity, unless there is a dispute all statements bear the same level of validity. They are all definitive canon statements and should be accepted as such. Noting that all the above sources are C-Canon. And while yes on its own it could be considered an overdramatisation, in congruence with the other quotes clearly he is just sourcing a canon fact.

 

5 - Yes I see your point there. But if we look to 2nd quote its meaning becomes clear.

 

Altogether, like I said before, there is one continuity. All canon statements, unless they come into conflict with eachother, essentially bear the same amount of weight. Anything accept S-canon should be considered absolute, indisputable truth. Sounds like authoritarian, but I prefer the word order.

[Beniboybling]

-Wookieepedia

Lol, Revan is definitely the Sith'ari. Duh.

[GGTeMpLaR]

While there was a deal of discussion between Caedus and Vitiate, I noticed there was little to no discussion regarding Darth Plagueis and why he is below both Caedus and Vitiate. Why is he just assumed below them? Edited July 29, 2013 by GGTeMpLaR

[Beniboybling]

While there was a deal of discussion between Caedus and Vitiate, I noticed there was little to no discussion regarding Darth Plagueis and why he is below both Caedus and Vitiate. Why is he just assumed below them?

Note this is the final list in a three part series, Plagueis position was already decided in The REAL Most Powerful Force Users. The discussion has been debated at the necessary length. Edited July 29, 2013 by Beniboybling

[GGTeMpLaR]

Seems like individual top Sith/Jedi lists should have been done first but what's done is done.

[sell-dog]

Not to sound like I'm a self important jerk for restating this but do you guys think there's enough stuff/impressive feats on Freedon Nadd to consider him for #10?

 

Big Bane fan myself but just for the sake of ensuring things thorough

[tunewalker]

Not to sound like I'm a self important jerk for restating this but do you guys think there's enough stuff/impressive feats on Freedon Nadd to consider him for #10?

 

Big Bane fan myself but just for the sake of ensuring things thorough

 

I don't know of any information on the guy if you can make an argument for him we can examine it.

[Beniboybling]

Not to sound like I'm a self important jerk for restating this but do you guys think there's enough stuff/impressive feats on Freedon Nadd to consider him for #10?

 

Big Bane fan myself but just for the sake of ensuring things thorough

By all means do.

 

Anyway signing off soon so I don't have time to do a proper evaluation, he has got a big Wookiee page though. If you like compile some of his feats and put them on the table and we'll see.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Trust me, this is making it convenient. And my so called format is the canonical breakdown of Force powers.

Your post # 414 clarified your format to me. Thanks for the effort.

 

I appreciate your humor as well; your bulldozing remark.

 

Well, I am accustomed to the "bulldoze" format of debating, because this has been my debating style for a long time. I admit that your "debating skills" are very refined; your points are not necessarily correct always though but this is forgivable because no one is all-knowing.

 

I do not understand that why you fear "length of my arguments" by the way? This shouldn't overwhelm you; you should just focus on the information presented to correct/reaffirm your perceptions. In this manner, you would be much more constructive in your approach to debates, and also fun to debate with. Now do not ignore the revelations provided by me in this post due to size factor. Read the entire post in calm fashion, take your time to comprehend the information offered by me and then re-evaluate your analysis accordingly. This is the only manner through which you can expect to reach middle-ground in this discussion with me.

 

Yeah, whatever.

Well, the intended messages are:-

 

1. I am flexible and open to reason.

2. I am not posting nonsense but concrete facts.

 

Thank you.

 

Yes, Sith Magic is the purest expression of the dark side of the Force, but that doesn't change the fact that in the end it doesn't require much ability in the Force to wield and so is not a reliable indication of power.. Even the lowliest of Force-sensitives with an affinity with Sith Magic were able to wield it. Hence we should look to other spheres of ability for confirmation of his power.

Beni, Sith Sorcery and conventional aspects of the Sith arts are more closely intertwined then you realize:-

 

 

Sorcerers wield the power of the dark side to lay waste to their enemies. By bending the Force to their will, sorcerers also use the dark side to mend wounds and shield worthy allies. Whether cutting down a foe with a lightsaber or dominating them with a storm of Force lightning, a Sith sorcerer displays terrifying power on and off the battlefield. (SWTORE, Page 182)

 

 

Sorcerers can become very good practitioners of conventional Sith applications because they can learn to attune themselves with the dark side in exceptional ways. This explains why Tenebrae is such a dominating Force-user in comparison to the majority in the mythos; any talent he acquired, he pushed boundaries with it.

 

Analogy: Count Dooku was among the strongest Jedi in his era. When he adopted the path of dark, he began to unleash Sith powers such as Force Lightning. Even though his powers were formidable, he didn't exactly proved to be very potent in the use of Sith applications; his telekinetic abilities remained his strongest point. This is due to lack of his as much affinity with the dark side that a Sith sorcerer could achieve. Sith sorcerers can be very effective in the use of dark side and particularly Sith applications because they can develop extremely close affinity with the dark side. For example: Nyriss could utterly destroy even powerful individuals with her Force Lightning (something that Dooku couldn't do). Tenebrae, in contrast, trumps even Nyriss in effectiveness of Sith applications because he was relatively much greater Sith sorcerer.

 

Analogy: Zannah had advantage over Bane on the basis of her Sith Sorcery based skillset. She had relatively greater attunement with the dark side and this reflected upon her Sith Sorcery based skills. Otherwise, Bane didn't had many weaknesses to be exploited in a fight; he is regarded as among the strongest Sith Lords.

 

Sith Inquisitors can specialize their talents in following ways:-

 

1. Sorcerer

2. Assassin

 

 

Mastery of the dark side requires raw talent and indomitable spirit. Sith Inquisitors draw on their inner passions and dedicate themselves to one facet of the dark arts in their pursuit of ultimate power. (SWTORE, Page 182)

 

 

I have pointed out the facets above.

 

Many Sith explore the field of Sith Sorcery because it is a pathway to accomplish the impossible.

 

Now, every Sith cannot become an exceptional sorcerer:-

 

Analogy: Every Jedi and Sith is taught about Tutaminis (while undergoing formal training in the use of the Force) but few have managed to master this application.

 

In the same way, many might explore the field of Sith Sorcery but few gain (true) expertise in its use. By all accounts, Tenebrae became the greatest master of Sith Sorcery and this is a reflection of his extraordinary attunement with the dark side:

 

 

The child who will come to be known as the Sith Emperor is born. Black-eyed, heartless, and supremely strong in the dark side of the Force, the boy seizes control of his homeworld by the age of 13 and earns the title Lord Vitiate. He amasses an army of Sith followers and turns his back on the Imperial politics to hone his skills in the dark side.

 

 

Tenebrae was extremely strong in the Force but he didn't receive much formal training in the use of the Force; he managed to hone his skills in natural ways predominantly. He explored the field of Sith Sorcery because it was a very popular subject concerning dark arts during his era or among the ancients in general. Tenebrae grew up in a very different setting then that of lets say Sidious and Caedus; the latter individuals received adequate formal training in the ways of the Force and therefore their skillset seems to be more conventional (relatively) accordingly. Caedus, in particular, acquired some talents naturally which facilitated his affinity with esoteric talents later on. Sidious, in particular, began to explore ancient Sith knowledge (including the subject of Sith Sorcery) to further hone his skills in the dark side with passage of time. It is through this knowledge that he (Sidious) became almost unstoppable. Plagueis also wanted access to such ancient knowledge but was hindered by actions of an older Sith Lord who destroyed many ancient Sith records. However, Sidious had much more luck then him (Plagueis) when he began to explore the galaxy (personally) for such records.

 

It would be unwise of you to assume that Tenebrae was (naturally) less gifted or weaker then Caedus and Sidious because he doesn't fits your perception of what is an ideal Force-user should be; the former could be possibly more gifted then the latter individuals. You do not understand the mechanisms of the Force as much as you think you do. Let the authors figure out the mysterious of the Force and explain to us (fans) instead.

 

----

 

This aforementioned information is the crux of what I have been trying to convey to fellow members (including you) here since the first thread I opened in this forum.

 

And no, there are no double-standards going on here, you have failed to understand. Nowhere has I stated that "Sidious is the most powerful because if he had used the magic-eight-ball-crystal he would have achieved immense power" because as an unnatural progression of his power it doesn't indicate anything about his current state. Indeed if the Sith Emperor had just existed, would he have achieved that level of power? No. On the other hand if Caedus had just existed he would have, therefore we can reach conclusions on how powerful he was at the time.

See above.

 

You do not seem to realize the fact that Tenebrae was (naturally) tremendously gifted Force-sensitive individual; he was "supremely strong" in natural form as well. It seems like as if the Force somehow willed his birth much like Anakin's. The fact that he managed to control one of the most lethal expressions of dark side power in his natural form, is evidence enough. However, Tenebrae desired godlike power and this is why he adopted the path of Sith Sorcery to attempt to accomplish his major objective; this doesn't implies that he lacked in potential to become an extraordinarily powerful Force-user but that Sith Sorcery is a pathway to achieve objectives that cannot be naturally accomplished. Try to understand what canon asserts about him.

 

In put it into perspective, Darth Caedus was 32 at the time of his death. At the age of 33 Luke Skywalker took on and defeated Darth Sidious - give that some thought.

Once again, Beni, you are offering a misleading remark about Luke's accomplishment. It is abundantly clear from canonical information that Luke couldn't hope to defeat Sidious single-handedly. Sidious proved this by defeating him in what can be described as a fair duel earlier; in-fact, he wanted the Skywalkers to become his servants and this is why he went easy on Luke (Please keep in mind that Sidious could kill the Skywalkers at will but he underestimated their resolve and strength in unison). I don't understand that why you keep resorting to vague assertions to fit your perceptions. You may argue that Luke became stronger afterwards but the fact remains that Sidious could still kill him at will.

 

------

 

Now coming towards your post # 414:-

 

Control: "Control is internal. It is the Jedi's ability to recognize the Force in himself and to use it to his benefit."

 

Darth Caedus: possessed incredibly skill in the ability to manipulate his body which allowed him to dull pain, manipulate blood flow and organ performance, manipulating his body to adapt to the environment and/or wounds. This ability also allowed him to influence others, putting them to sleep or lending them strength. He was also highly skilled in Force healing which he could use to put others in healing trances among other powers. These powers manifested themselves most overtly when Caedus on one occasion had his arm completed severed and on the other occasion was impaled in the stomach, yet it did not seem to detriment him in anyway.

 

In addition to this, Caedus was immensely skilled in the use of Force cloak to the extent that he was able to cut himself off from the Force itself, even able to change what other Force sensitives would sense when searching for him. His ability was so potent that it fooled Luke Skywalker himself.

 

Caedus again showed his abilities were close to rivaling Luke's when he displayed his exceptional ability in tutanimis, making him able to absorb and redirect Skywakers attacks. Caedus was also a master of Force speed, which he used to school Jedi Battlemaster Kyle Katarn despite being outnumbered and even injure his uncle.

 

Sith Emperor: with his unprecedented knowledge of Sith Magic which he had over a millenia to study the Sith Emperor become an absolute master of transferring his consciousness - able to imbue portions of himself into the minds of others transforming then into Children of his will or a Voice to exact his commands.

 

It may not seem clear to everyone, but Caedus gets the edge in this category. Why? Because the Sith Emperor's ability in essence transfer is mainly a product of understanding, knowledge and a millennia of study. Essence transfer itself is an ability that even lesser Force users - such as Zannah's rejected apprentice Set Harth - were able to wield. So it is natural to assume that any being, of any power, would be able to achieve momentous ability in such a field given enough time. That said the Emperor remains second only to Sidious in his mastery over the technique and we must credit him for being able to both survive the death of these vessels and spread his essence across so many hosts. However having almost unprecedented ability in a field which any above-average Force user can wield does not take precedence over unprecedented ability in a field which only masters are capable of, and valuing raw power over understanding and knowledge. Caedus therefore takes the edge.

You have overlooked lot of information concerning Sith Emperor in this aspect:

 

Control: "Control is internal. It is the Jedi's ability to recognize the Force in himself and to use it to his benefit."

 

Maybe your interpretation of this aspect is not perfect.

 

Tenebrae began to manifest his Force abilities at the age of 6 and since then he began to perform feats with such abilities that aren't possible without formal training typically. In other words, he recognized his Force abilities at very young age (naturally) and began to use them to his benefit.

 

 

“At the age of six he began to manifest signs of the Force, marking him as one of the ruling elite. But his parents were simple farmers, and the Force was not strong in them. Suspicious about the boy’s power, his father confronted his mother, who admitted to having an affair with the Sith Lord who ruled over them.

 

The father flew into a rage, attacking the boy’s mother. Tenebrae stopped him, feeding on his father’s anger and hate to call upon the dark side. He snapped his father’s neck with a mere thought, killing him instantly. His mother died more slowly. Tenebrae made her suffer for months as punishment for betraying the family, torturing her with the Force as he honed his powers.

 

Now orphaned by his own hand, he made the others in his village bow down to him. Those who refused, he tortured and killed through the Force. Over the next few years his reputation and influence spread to nearby villages, and he amassed legions of both fanatical and terrified followers. He killed thousands during his rise to power." (Darth Nyriss to Lord Scourge; Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

 

 

Tenebrae acquired several talents naturally; Telekinetic abilities; Force Drain talent; Force Sever talent; and possibly more. Remember that he didn't receive much formal training or any at all.

 

Tenebrae demonstrated greatest level of control over his Force abilities during his first major transformation; he managed to control one of the most lethal expressions of dark side power in his natural form to facilitate his first major transformation during a ritual orchestrated by him. You seem to overlook this crucial development.

 

As per aforementioned revelations, Tenebrae massively outguns Caedus in control aspect of the Force abilities.

 

Sense: "Sense involves the next step, in which the Jedi recognizes the force in the universe outside oneself."

 

Darth Caedus: possesses remarkable abilities in Force empathy, and at a young age was able to have conversations with his mother and twin sister with ease, whereas most Jedi were barely able to manage a few words. He was also able to sever these connections when necessary to prevent detection, and block of his mind to make it unreadable even to Luke Skywalker himself. He was exceptionally skilled in the use of Battle Meld, acting as a 'hive mind' for seventeen other Jedi in a heightened form of battle meditation.

 

Caedus also possessed absolutely unprecedented ability in foresight, not only was he able to foresee the future and past at will, but was able to actively set the parameters of what he would see. Allowing incredibly accurate depictions of the future, unmatched by anyone in history. He was also highly skilled in the use of shatterpoint.

 

Sith Emperor: surprisingly has shown no ability in this category and in fact required Revan, as a prisoner, to access Force visions - so we can only assume his abilities were lacking in this field, or at least not on par with Caedus. Note that I don't consider his ability to dominate the minds of others as indication of ability in Sense because he does it in an unconventional way, dominating them in the most literal sense simply by overwhelming them with his dark side power - which is a display of Alter, not Sense.

 

Obviously Caedus gets the edge in this department but I would not say completely by de facto, as the Emperor's reliance on Revan and the Voss for that matter revealed a weakness concerning foresight. And the scope of Caedus' abilities in Sense are large and unprecedented.[/color]

First of all, Caedus isn't infallible in this aspect / talent. He didn't figured out that Luke had reached his position to rescue his son (Ben) from his captivity, as an example. Also, Caedus isn't the only individual to accurately foresee future developments; I have given some examples before but you seem to have overlooked them:

 

1. Revan predicted arrival of Meetra to rescue him from his imprisonment by Nyriss

2. Traya predicted the fall of Jango Fett

3. Duron Qel-Droma predicted the fall of Malak at the hands of Revan

 

Secondly, this is an aspect in which Tenebrae is least explored canonically (unfortunately). Force sense is a commonly acquired talent among Force-users, though they are not equally proficient in this talent. It would be asinine to assume that Tenebrae lacked in this talent; his extreme duration of survival in a Sith Empire should make it abundantly clear that he possessed highly developed Force abilities on the whole. As an example, Tenebrae somehow learned about the treachery of the first Dark Council he purged single-handedly, without involvement of any informant. After the treachery of the first Dark Council, he focused on developing his personal powerbase which he improved with passage of time.

 

Also, Tenebrae could conceal his "children" from Force sense abilities of the Jedi; even the most powerful Jedi. He deployed his "children" in different parts of the Republic as extensions of his sensory reach. First Son also possessed this capability, which I assume is imparted to him by Tenebrae himself.

 

Sith Emperor: his telekinetic abilities were likely highly skilled as at a young age he was able to snap his adoptive father's neck with merely a thought. He was also able to generate powerful Force waves to potent effect against powerful Force users.

You forgot to note that Tenebrae could disintegrate machinery and even collapse structures with his telekinetic abilities.

 

The Sith Emperor was incredibly skilled in the use of mind control and on numerous occasions dominated the minds of powerful Force users such as Revan and Malak through sheer strength of will. He was also skilled in the use of Qâzoi Kyantuska which he used to dominate the minds of 8,000 Sith Lords.

He could directly influence / humble even the most powerful Jedi with his telepathic abilities. This has been pointed out in one of the codex entries.

 

Outside the scope of category, the Sith Emperor bolstered his already considerable power by consuming the Force essence of 8,000 Sith Lords as well as the life forms of an entire planet - by which he achieved immortality. However we must not from this jump to the conclusion that the Sith Emperor was as powerful as the combined strength of 8,000 powerful Sith and then some, this is clearly not the case as he faced destruction at the combined hands of Revan, Meetra and Scourge - and was unable to overcome the Hero of Tython. Two explanations are either that 1. the majority of said power was fueling his longevity 2. the majority of that power was infact expended/used to fuel the ritual itself. It is likely a combination of the two.

Actually he acquired sufficient power to pull of Nathema like feat single-handedly:

 

Planetary-scale destructive abilities?

 

Tenebrae, after his first transformation, possibly acquired the capability to devastate an entire planet with his Force abilities, should he desire.

 

 

“Nathema was just the beginning,” Scourge agreed. “He will destroy world after world, his power and madness growing in concert until he alone is left, Emperor over an empty and lifeless galaxy.”

 

Meetra stared at the two in horror.

 

“You’ve been to Nathema,” Scourge said. “You felt the Void. You know what the Emperor is capable of.”

 

“She understands,” Revan said, reading her expression more accurately than Scourge. “That’s not it.”

 

“He’s quarantined Dromund Kaas,” Meetra said, trying to lead them to the same conclusion. “What if he’s preparing to do the same thing here that he did on Nathema?”

 

Scourge hadn’t considered that possibility, and it chilled him to his core.

 

“Is that possible?” he asked. “Nyriss told me the ritual on Nathema took days, if not weeks. And the Emperor had to trick hundreds of other powerful Sith into working with him so he could draw on their power.”

 

“He’s stronger now,” Revan said. “But even if it’s possible, I don’t think he’ll go that far. At least not yet. He is too patient, too careful. Dromund Kaas is the heart of his Empire and the seat of his power. He has too many valuable resources here to throw it all away. (SWTOR: Revan)

 

 

Revan is absolutely correct:

 

 

Lord Vitiate takes command of the Sith Empire, now in shambles following the Great Hyperspace War. He executes the Sith Council and consumes the life force of thousands of Sith Lords in a terrifying ritual that extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force. (SWTORE, Page 16)

 

He was capable of inflicting mass destruction single-handedly after his first major transformation. As far as Revan and his allies are concerned, they were more likely to fail then succeed, and this is why Scourge bailed out. If they could succeed, it would be most likely through use of lightsaber but not power or even their combined strength. As far as victory of HoT is concerned, time and again I have pointed out that it is circumstantial but you keep on ignoring this point. Prior to this encounter, Tenebrae comfortably defeated HoT in a (fair) fight.

 

Also, HoT is possibly stronger then Revan and is not to be underestimated; who knows, he might be a match for Luke or close.

 

In terms of telekinesis I would give the edge to Caedus. He matched the Sith Emperor's ability to use telekinesis at a young age and arguably surpassed him, as the act of snapping a neck requires far less concentration and ability than altering the patterns of tiny molecules. Noting that lesser Force users such as Darth Zannah were capable of similar feats at a young age. And unlike the Sith Emperor in his prime he was able to choke Force sensitive individuals, breaching their barriers and matched the Emperor's ability to generate Force waves, if not surpassed him as Caedus was able to generate waves of similar potency in a severely injured condition. The edge however is likely not considerable.

See above; you have missed some information concerning telekinetic abilities of Tenebrae.

 

In terms of Force lightning, it is much more difficult to call. Both have show themselves capable of easily incapacitating individuals who would otherwise be resistant to Force powers and both applications of Force lightning possess similar levels of destructive power. Therefore they are likely equal in this category, though if any edge were to be given it would go to the Sith Emperor, simply because of his ability to generate powerful Force storms. Though it should be noted that he likely pre-prepared the attack he used against the Jedi Strike Team as he was incapable of producing similar levels of power when caught off-guard by Revan.

Actually Tenebrae would have utterly destroyed Revan with his FL abilities, if T3-M4 had not interfered. Time and again, I have pointed this out to you but you keep on ignoring this fact.

 

In terms of mind control we must not be overly impressed by the Sith Emperor's display of Qâzoi Kyantuska, as according to the SWTOR Encylopedia and in conflict with Darth Nyriss' assumption, the Sith partook in the ritual willingly: "Eight thousand agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon." [pg 161] Caught up in the throes of ritual - much akin to the thought bomb ritual - their minds would be easily dominated. Indeed a willing mind is far, far more susceptible to mental domination than an unwilling one, evident in the way in which Lord Kaan was able to manipulate the will of his Sith followers to enact the thought bomb ritual, as in their similarly dire situation they wished to believe it could succeed - and Lord Kaan is not exactly powerful.

Tenebrae's proficiency in this talent is still greatest in the mythos.

 

Also, Lord Kaan is not exactly powerful? Really?

 

 

Kopecz understood this, and he was willing to follow him. The Sith needed a strong and charismatic leader, a man of vision, to quell the infighting that had plagued their ranks. Kaan was just such a leader, and he was normally a brilliant military tactician. (Star Was: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

 

 

 

"I will send word to Qordis," Kaan continued, the Force emanating from him in palpable waves. "You are right. It is time for those at the Academy on Korriban to truly join the ranks of the Sith." (Star Was: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

 

 

 

Now it was she who felt fear. Lord Kaan radiated power: he could crush her as easily as she crushed the small beetles that sometimes scuttled across the floor of her tent. (Star Was: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

 

 

The woman referred in the 3rd spoiler is Githany. She was noted to pack brigade worth of firepower herself; and yet, she was nothing in comparison to Kaan.

 

Kaan was not a weakling; far from it.

 

In terms of sever force, Caedus' application of the technique is unprecedented and a massive testament to his ability. Being able to relinquish and restore the connection of a powerful Force user - who was strong enough to challenge an avatar of Abeloth - shows complete dominance over them. That said the Sith Emperor was able to wield a standard variant of Force drain at the tender age of 13 - an equally testament to his power and ability to dominate other Force users. In such a sense they are likely equal in this field.

Actually you forgot this:

 

Vitiate siphoned energies from the souls of all the life forms trapped in the void of planet Nathema (Medriaas) + many individuals on planet Dromund Kaas + Revan in Maelstrom Prison region simultaneously. All of these worlds are located lightyears apart from each other. This is arguably the greatest display of proficiency in the Force Drain talent/application in the whole mythos.

 

---

 

Finally in terms of Force illusions, Caedus would take the edge. Simply put he has displayed a far greater mastery over the technique, showing himself capable of using such illusions to both deceive and dominate the minds of others. While the Sith Emperor was only able to create apparitions that could fight on his behalf - a most rudimentary application of the power which even the most basic of adepts were capable of.

And who are these basic adepts?

 

Overall, I remain confident that Caedus is the superior Force user. He has surpassed the Sith Emperor in the fields of Control and Sense quite considerably with his unprecedented ability in a variety of talents. And in terms of Alter, they are largely equal. Caedus has surpassed the Sith Emperor in the fields of telekinesis and Force illusions, while the Sith Emperor only has a notable advantage in the sphere of mind control. While they are equal in terms of Force lightning and Sever Force. However the playing field is leveled somewhat in the sense that if an edge had to be given in terms of lightning and sever Force, it is more likely going to be given to the Sith Emperor. However overall if an edge had to be given in Alter, it would go to Caedus as he has shown himself superior in a greater number of abilities.

Guess what? This is the kind of conclusion you will reach when you will ignore my revelations and/or canonical revelations concerning Tenebrae in general.

 

1. What about Tenebrae's single-handed purge of entire Dark Council?

 

2. What about Tenebrae's capability to influence the environment of an entire world (e.g. Dromund Kaas)?

 

3. What about Tenebrae's capability to rule over some of the most powerful Dark Lords in the mythos?

 

4. Could Caedus last over a thousand years in a Sith Empire, if put in place of Tenebrae?

 

5. What about extraordinary defensive capabilities of Tenebrae?

 

6. What about the capability of Tenebrae to force some of the most dangerous Sith spirits to submission?

 

Also, I have pinpointed numerous other issues in your assumptions. I strongly advice you to reconsider your analysis.

 

I realise that for all those taken in by the canonical statements that the Sith Emperor is "the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed" etc. but Caedus' power has not gone unnoticed, and he is very much the megalodon of his respective era:

 

...Once mysterious prophecy, Luke Skywalker's words have become truth. But can even the Sword of the Jedi bring down one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time?...

 

...The Galactic Alliance, with the extraordinary power and dark brilliance of newly ascendant Sith Lord Darth Caedus at its helm, may be unstoppable...

 

...It’s a plan that will be as difficult and dangerous to execute as it is daring. For Caedus is a scion of both the Skywalker and Solo bloodlines whose command of the Force surpasses even that of his grandfather Darth Vader...

 

--Taken from Invincible

 

Just like the Sith Emperor, Caedus has been affirmed as one of the most powerful dark siders ever. Which I feel justifies and solidifies his position as #2 - he should by no means be underestimated.

Tenebrae have been described as "almost godlike avatar of the dark side."

 

Big deal, if Caedus is superior to Vader? This much is expected of him. A lone Dark Council member can be match for Vader by the way.

Edited July 30, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Aurbere]

Big deal, if Caedus is superior to Vader? This much is expected of him. A lone Dark Council member can be match for Vader by the way.

 

Hogwash! Only those ignorant of Vader's abilities would say that.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Hogwash! Only those ignorant of Vader's abilities would say that.

Vader is a well-known character of the mythos. I am fully aware of his capabilities.

 

Every statement of mine have basis behind it.

[Aurbere]

Vader is a well-known character of the mythos. I am fully aware of his capabilities.

 

Every statement of mine have basis behind it.

 

And yet you say that *insert random DC member here* could take Vader without providing a shred of evidence.

 

I'm sure you have a wealth of evidence to back up your argument, so please, show me. I mean, it's not like Vader isn't currently the fifth most powerful Sith Lord or anything

[S_W_LeGenD]

And yet you say that *insert random DC member here* could take Vader without providing a shred of evidence.

 

I'm sure you have a wealth of evidence to back up your argument, so please, show me. I mean, it's not like Vader isn't currently the fifth most powerful Sith Lord or anything

Vader benefits from being a heavily explored character and therefore the list of his feats are long. In contrast, majority of TOR era characters suffer from lack of information and therefore are often not decent candidates for comparative purposes.

 

You first need to understand the ground realities of Dark Council:-

 

 

To serve on the Dark Council is to achieve the greatest position of honor, power, and influence in the Empire. Many Sith spend their lives plotting their ascension to the council, but with millions vying for only 12 seats, the competition is cutthroat. The powerful few who join the Council often serve for only a few months, their lives cut short by internal power struggles or external enemies who target them for assassination. (SWTORE, Page 172)

 

 

Now you realize how difficult it is to secure a seat in the Dark Council, let alone survive in it for long time?

 

Vader never faced such level of competition in the Sith Empire he served; their was no Dark Council in the Empire of Sidious by the way. In contrast, millions of Force-users existed in the Empire of Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) at a time. In a pool of competition of such a size, only dark side prodigies could make it to the Dark Council.

 

Now as an example, consider Darth Marr:-

 

Marr is canonically "a master of the dark side" and lasted over 40 years in the Dark Council, which is testament to his incredible power and talents on the whole. Capabilities wise, Darth Marr was capable of routing whole armies single-handedly (which is impossible task for majority of individuals); he was immensely feared within the Republic ranks. In the absence of the Sith Emperor (Tenebrae), it shouldn't surprise anybody if Darth Marr became the de-facto leader of the Sith Empire he served; the same Empire which didn't accept leadership of Darth Malgus (another immensely powerful Force-user). Marr held the seat of "Defense of the Empire" within the Dark Council, which is an extremely challenging responsibility.

Edited July 30, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[tunewalker]

Vader benefits from being a heavily explored character and therefore the list of his feats are long. In contrast, majority of TOR era characters suffer from lack of information and therefore are often not decent candidates for comparative purposes.

 

You first need to understand the ground realities of Dark Council:-

 

 

To serve on the Dark Council is to achieve the greatest position of honor, power, and influence in the Empire. Many Sith spend their lives plotting their ascension to the council, but with millions vying for only 12 seats, the competition is cutthroat. The powerful few who join the Council often serve for only a few months, their lives cut short by internal power struggles or external enemies who target them for assassination. (SWTORE, Page 172)

 

 

Now you realize how difficult it is to secure a seat in the Dark Council, let alone survive in it for long time?

 

Vader never faced such level of competition in the Sith Empire he served; their was no Dark Council in the Empire of Sidious by the way. In contrast, millions of Force-users existed in the Empire of Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) at a time. In a pool of competition of such a size, only dark side prodigies could make it to the Dark Council.

 

Now as an example, consider Darth Marr.

 

Marr is canonically "a master of the dark side" and lasted over 40 years in the Dark Council which is testament to his incredible power and talents on the whole. Capabilities wise, Darth Marr was capable of routing whole armies single-handedly (which is impossible task for majority of individuals); he was immensely feared within the Republic ranks. In the absence of the Sith Emperor (Tenebrae), it shouldn't surprise anybody if Darth Marr became the de-facto leader of the Sith Empire he served; the same Empire which didn't accept leadership of Darth Malgus (another immensely powerful Force-user). Marr held the seat of "defense of the Empire" within the Dark Council which is an extremely challenging task.

 

All of that is utterly meaningless when comparing cross era so they were incredibly powerful for their time it says nothing about Vader, Vader didn't face competition but this also means he wasn't cut down prematurely, where many sith lords that could have been on the council were killed long before their prime meaning the ones on the council weren't neccissarily their because of their power alone, but because they were cunning and able to avoid assassinations or make assassinations which allowed them to live long enough to become as strong as they were, and any time some one who could become close to them that person was cut down.

 

Its like if Dooku had killed Anakin in Episode II, Vader would greatly surpass dooku later on but by killing him in this early stage Dooku prevented that. So the DC members are powerful for their time but because of the nature of competition its very possible that they were Weak in comparison to Vader who was 80% of palpatine the G-cannon Most powerful sith capable of opening holes in the space/time continuum with out assistance from any one or anything.

 

This was the whole point of the Sith'ari Bane to kill off the ways of the old sith that caused weakness (the way that it is in this era) and then remodel them to make the sith more powerful then they had ever been before culminating in Plaegus, Palpatine and to some degree Vader.

[S_W_LeGenD]

All of that is utterly meaningless when comparing cross era so they were incredibly powerful for their time it says nothing about Vader, Vader didn't face competition but this also means he wasn't cut down prematurely, where many sith lords that could have been on the council were killed long before their prime meaning the ones on the council weren't neccissarily their because of their power alone, but because they were cunning and able to avoid assassinations or make assassinations which allowed them to live long enough to become as strong as they were, and any time some one who could become close to them that person was cut down.

 

Its like if Dooku had killed Anakin in Episode II, Vader would greatly surpass dooku later on but by killing him in this early stage Dooku prevented that. So the DC members are powerful for their time but because of the nature of competition its very possible that they were Weak in comparison to Vader who was 80% of palpatine the G-cannon Most powerful sith capable of opening holes in the space/time continuum with out assistance from any one or anything.

 

This was the whole point of the Sith'ari Bane to kill off the ways of the old sith that caused weakness (the way that it is in this era) and then remodel them to make the sith more powerful then they had ever been before culminating in Plaegus, Palpatine and to some degree Vader.

Have you played and completed Sith Inquisitor storyline?

 

In this storyline, the "player character" is canonically identified as Darth Nox; his major dispute is with Darth Thanaton (a very powerful Force-user, mind you) and he manages to dominate Darth Thanaton in a Kaggath declared inside the Dark Council itself at the end of his existing story arc. In other words, even an exceptionally powerful Sith Lord (e.g. Darth Thanaton) didn't last a whole day in the Dark Council once he acquired a seat in it, his life cut short by the rivalry and competition as pointed out in the spoiler in my previous post. Therefore, my point is absolutely valid that competition is cutthroat for acquiring a seat in the Dark Council and even exceptionally powerful Force-users fall in the process.

Edited July 30, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[tunewalker]

Have you played and completed Sith Inquisitor storyline?

 

In this storyline, the player character is Darth Nox. His major dispute is against Darth Thanaton (a very powerful Force-user, mind you) and he manages to dominate Darth Thanaton in a Kaggath declared inside the Dark Council itself. In other words, even a Sith like Darth Thanaton didn't lasted a whole day in the Dark Council once he acquired a seat in it. Therefore, my point is absolutely valid that competition is cutthroat for acquiring seat in the Dark Council and even exceptionally powerful Force-users fall in the process.

 

Thanaton didn't seem all that exceptional to me there is little to no feats on him and he very clearly tries to kill you early on with out the help of your ancestor he would have succeeded how many students did not receive that help and thus did not reach that lvl do to being cut down long before their do time rather then their force potential..... no my point stands the cut throatness of the position is a detriment not a bonus, the more cut throat the competition is the less likely the people at the top will be truly the most powerful and not just the ones that ended the lives of the most powerful before they could achieve what was rightfully theirs.

 

 

Edit: BTW to me the inquisitor should be refered to as "She" not he lol

Edited July 30, 2013 by tunewalker

[marcelo_sdk]

I tought about Darth Angral and Datrh Marr, they are, at least, close to power on Malgu,s at least I understood that from all the sources. I just didn't nominate them cause I really couldn't find much about them to give credits to my claim. If anyone could provide more info about the two, perhaps they can be considered for #10.

 

About Legend's claim, perhaps in a one-on-one battle, the OR characters, in general, have the advantage of being battle experienced. Some were born and were training fighting wars. The Golden Age Jedi didn't have that factor prior to the Clone Wars. Even them, it was a 3-year-long conflict, nothing compared to the decades of war between the Sith Empire and the Republic.

 

But again, this topic is about Force powers, not battle prowess. And on those terms, Vader is superior, even to Malgus, who was more powerful than any DC member.

[tunewalker]

I tought about Darth Angral and Datrh Marr, they are, at least, close to power on Malgu,s at least I understood that from all the sources. I just didn't nominate them cause I really couldn't find much about them to give credits to my claim. If anyone could provide more info about the two, perhaps they can be considered for #10.

 

About Legend's claim, perhaps in a one-on-one battle, the OR characters, in general, have the advantage of being battle experienced. Some were born and were training fighting wars. The Golden Age Jedi didn't have that factor prior to the Clone Wars. Even them, it was a 3-year-long conflict, nothing compared to the decades of war between the Sith Empire and the Republic.

 

But again, this topic is about Force powers, not battle prowess. And on those terms, Vader is superior, even to Malgus, who was more powerful than any DC member.

 

Vader obviously had nearly 30 or 40 years of experience himself from the clone wars the jedi purge and the galactic civil war he had plenty of experience, and I don't remember which source it was but I do remember some one linking a cannon statement about how lightsaber skills became more refined over the years, don't quote me on it though since I am unsure who linked it or where just that it likely exsists.