The REAL Most Powerful Sith

[Beniboybling]

Incorrect, I have the Tales of the Jedi, this is an assumption made by historians, he absorbed the Massassi race with his knowledge of Sorcery and Alchemy and then used a ritual, apparently his own variation of the Essence Transfer technique, which he never learned according to the sources, to transcend his body and become an Essence, he was probably going to go to a number of worlds where he could use this same technique to reconstruct his own body with alchemy, he revealed this plan and the sacrifice he was going to use to enhance his own powers to Luke Skywalker.

Well I'll take your word for it then. I suppose this puts Exar Kun in a very strong position as he had already achieved great amounts of power prior to the ritual, and this would have made him even more powerful.

[LadyKulvax]

but since force barriers are not a defense against it, it isn't very indicative of power, he could do this against any one who doesn't have knowledge of the technique (Caedus, Luke) and presumably kill them, begs the question that if he could do this in his spirit form as was suggested why he didn't do so to Luke since he very clearly tried to kill him, honestly I am becoming more and more skeptic that things work quite so black and white, I believe your assessment is purely wrong what evidence do you have that the blasts didn't have to go through force shields and that the people he hit with them weren't just weak beyond your own opinion. Like I said question everything, but still he didn't show those other abilities near the same lvl and they are far easier to gauge since we know how they work and that they require no outside thing. Sorcery is a different beast that requires more then the users power and could potentially be pulling on the power of the surroundings as such I can not nor ever will see it as truly indicative of power.

 

Just because he used sorcery does not make him weak, yeh I suppose Vitiate is absolutely weak and shouldn't be considered as almost all of his abilities are a product of either Alchemy, Sorcery or other Sith Magics.

 

Oh and he tried, others however got in the way.

 

My assessment is canon, Pure Dark Side energy cannot be defended against, read Dynasty of Evil.

 

I also call the idea that Sorcery can be used by just anyone hogwash, sure lesser force users have learned to use it, but there is clearly a LARGE margin between powerful force users with an intimate knowledge of Sorcery and those of an average level of ability.

 

This assumption that Sorcery is purely knowledge is simply not well thought through Darth Sidious the clear most powerful Dark Sider of all time noted himself that Sith Sorcery requires an intimate connection and a natural disposition towards the Dark Side and it's innermost workings to be able to wield it to the highest degrees.

 

Oh and let me ask you this, could Vader use Force Flight to cross considerable distances? no. could Vader sense things from across the galaxy? no. Could Vader use telekinesis to freeze hundreds of people at once? no. Could Vader attack the mind itself and crush it? no. Could Vader build a will so powerful against the Dark Side that he could actively study it as well as Alchemy and resolutely deny the offers of Sith spirits so that he didn't turn until he freely of his own will decided to turn? clearly not even close.

[tunewalker]

Just because he used sorcery does not make him weak, yeh I suppose Vitiate is absolutely weak and shouldn't be considered as almost all of his abilities are a product of either Alchemy, Sorcery or other Sith Magics.

 

Oh and he tried, others however got in the way.

 

My assessment is canon, Pure Dark Side energy cannot be defended against, read Dynasty of Evil.

 

I also call the idea that Sorcery can be used by just anyone hogwash, sure lesser force users have learned to use it, but there is clearly a LARGE margin between powerful force users with an intimate knowledge of Sorcery and those of an average level of ability.

 

This assumption that Sorcery is purely knowledge is simply not well thought through Darth Sidious the clear most powerful Dark Sider of all time noted himself that Sith Sorcery requires an intimate connection and a natural disposition towards the Dark Side and it's innermost workings to be able to wield it to the highest degrees.

 

Oh and let me ask you this, could Vader use Force Flight to cross considerable distances? no. could Vader sense things from across the galaxy? no. Could Vader use telekinesis to freeze hundreds of people at once? no. Could Vader attack the mind itself and crush it? no. Could Vader build a will so powerful against the Dark Side that he could actively study it as well as Alchemy and resolutely deny the offers of Sith spirits so that he didn't turn until he freely of his own will decided to turn? clearly not even close.

 

I am assuming we are both talking about the jedi academy trilogy its been a while since I read it but I never remember him trying to blast luke with that I only remember him trying to use beasts of which Luke guided the hand of his nephew and killed them all.

 

Never said any one could use it, nor did I say you didn't need to be powerful the problem is HOW powerful its not indicative of that. Please don't twist my words its not very constructive to the debate to blame me for saying something I never did.

 

And to all of your questions to my knowledge the first is yes, the second is yes and across time to a degree, third is a no as you have surmised again as far as I am aware, the fourth is most certainly yes he showed massive skill in telepathy and mental assaults, the final one is a question of did Exar Kun truly deny them after all he choose to turn as far as vader was concerned he also CHOSE to turn at the end of the day every one who falls believes they choose it that they were the master and the dark side their slave when it is in fact the opposite, he fell the moment he began studing it he was just lieing to himself about it.

 

Now could Kun levitate multiple objects while still fighting? as far as I know no. Could he use powerful enough TK to collapse entire large buildings, again to my knowledge no..... I am sure we could continue this till we were both blue in the face the point is they both had things the other couldn't do and I hold conventional abilities beyond Sorcery as Sorcery may not be ENTIRELY the users energy (not saying it doesn't require power or a lot of power or anything but remember when you ask the question how many powerful force users are there the awnser is thousands.)

[LadyKulvax]

Vader never used force flight to a considerable degree, force levitate? sure. Force Flight. no. He could also not sense something happening in the core itself, Palpatine could sense Vader's imminent danger, Vader has never shown the ability to sense something from one side of the galaxy to the other.

 

Also Kun resolutely defended against their temptations and the Nexus of the Dark Side on Yavin IV and Korriban, yet you misunderstand, he was going to die if he did not use the Dark Side to escape, Freedon Nadd had ripped from him the ability to call upon the Light or ask his master for help, then he turned.

[tunewalker]

Vader never used force flight to a considerable degree, force levitate? sure. Force Flight. no. He could also not sense something happening in the core itself, Palpatine could sense Vader's imminent danger, Vader has never shown the ability to sense something from one side of the galaxy to the other.

 

Also Kun resolutely defended against their temptations and the Nexus of the Dark Side on Yavin IV and Korriban, yet you misunderstand, he was going to die if he did not use the Dark Side to escape, Freedon Nadd had ripped from him the ability to call upon the Light or ask his master for help, then he turned.

 

Looks like the Dark side was forced on Kun like any one else. I don't know about you but sensing his mother being tortured regardless of where he was in galaxy seems like pretty good senses to me.

[LadyKulvax]

Looks like the Dark side was forced on Kun like any one else. I don't know about you but sensing his mother being tortured regardless of where he was in galaxy seems like pretty good senses to me.

 

Force Visions/Premonitions are not the same as Force Sense, in-fact they are entirely different spheres, the Jedi Seers didn't sense the Chosen One's prophecy, they foresaw it in visions.

 

Oh and Kun had a much more difficult choice than most, die here and now at such a young age or use the Dark Side to break free, Nadd literally gave him no other choice, don't simplify this, he actively resisted all other attempts, this was basically amateur hour attempts of corruption that Nadd was using.

 

Whilst Kun was arrogant, he clearly didn't go over to the Dark Side till he had no other choice except death.

[tunewalker]

Force Visions/Premonitions are not the same as Force Sense, in-fact they are entirely different spheres, the Jedi Seers didn't sense the Chosen One's prophecy, they foresaw it in visions.

 

Oh and Kun had a much more difficult choice than most, die here and now at such a young age or use the Dark Side to break free, Nadd literally gave him no other choice, don't simplify this, he actively resisted all other attempts, this was basically amateur hour attempts of corruption that Nadd was using.

 

Whilst Kun was arrogant, he clearly didn't go over to the Dark Side till he had no other choice except death.

 

It still means nothing when it comes to force power how you fell is over all meaningless. I am still pretty sure Vader could sense things far off, like in ESB Vader knew the Hoth system was where Luke was after them just showing one shot of it, he didn't just have a hunch or anything as soon as they said we found some sort of settlement on Hoth Vader said that's what I am looking for garentee you the person I am trying to capture is there to, he had to have some sort of sense for that to be possible, I am sure if I dug I could find another example, it just doesn't seem outside of his abilities but eh I don't that it changes anything even if it is beyond his senses.

[LadyKulvax]

The point I am making is that Exar Kun had incredible willpower and that showed when he survived as merely an essence for four thousand years and his powers didn't wane.

 

Also, you realise Vader was in the same sector of space as the Hoth system, I am talking senses that can go galaxy-wide.

[Beniboybling]

I think I'd like to revisit this list because I feel that Traya should take #8 as opposed to Malgus.

 

Now this may just be my fanboyism talking, but I have reasons.

 

Namely I feel that Traya's abilities in terms of Alter have been underestimated. Malgus has shown himself capable of choking out Jedi but there are limits to his capabilities. He was only able to choke Jedi in the throes of fury and in such throes was unable to kill more powerful Jedi such as Ven Zallow, his Padawan and the the Zabrak Jedi on Alderaan who collapsed building on him - who we can assume was above-average/powerful.

 

Now I'm sure its obvious why I'm drawing attention to this, and that is because in KOTOR II Traya effortlessly Force chokes a well prepared Darth Sion - much more powerful than Zallow and the like - proclaiming "your strength is as meaningless as the strength of my hand." Now the tenuous argument can be made that she was using Malachor's energies but it is, tenuous. For one she does it in such a relaxed and nonchalant manner indicating that this is of no difficulty to her, and she has choked Force sensitives with ease in the past.

 

I'd also point to one version of the Jedi Council meeting where Kreia Force crushes each Jedi as she berates them in turn. Now while this was cut from the actual game I feel only because it seem disjointed and just not as cool as her Force draining them - not because they began second guessing whether she was capable of doing this. Clearly that scene and this one were demonstrating how dwarfed these individuals are by Traya.

 

And of course, a comparison between Sion and Malgus can be drawn. With Sion arguably being capable of channeling his anger to a much greater extent than Malgus. Indeed I feel he is underestimated somewhat, we are forgetting that he was able to sustain almost any injury simply through raw Force power.

 

Force drain is also worth a mention, as Darth Bane demonstrated that it demanded a great deal of raw power, yet Traya was able to annihilate the entire Jedi Council with it. I think that matches Malgus' impressive feats in terms of telekinesis, lightning etc. and she already has the advantage in terms of Control and Alter.

 

And finally I'd throw in the fact that this would be more congruent with the Most Powerful Jedi list, in which we have Revan and Meetra inhabiting #7 and #8 and Satele Shan at #10 i.e. in different (though not massively different) leagues. And I think we'd all agree that Traya is most certainly in league with Revan and Meetra. Whereas Malgus seems more on par with the likes of Shan, of whom the disparity between is minimal to say the least.

 

Anyway this is just my opinion, I encourage discussion on this matter.

 

I also encourage that we reconsider Sion's capabilities, I feel brushing him aside doesn't do justice to his power.

[Beniboybling]

The Vader vs Exar Kun discussion may also be worth picking up.

 

However I think its best we consider Exar Kun pre-ritual because we have conflicting accounts on whether he became a spirit at that point or not and more importantly it becomes guess work as to how powerful he was.

 

...hmmm REAL Most Powerful Spirit's anyone?

[Selenial]

I was never happy with Traya as #9... Glad I'm not the only one!

 

Oh, also. She'd have been more powerful than the Exile, with ease, if she was not a wound. It took out her ability to use Force Drain.

 

She'd also eat Revan for breakfast

Edited October 12, 2013 by Selenial

[LadyKulvax]

The Vader vs Exar Kun discussion may also be worth picking up.

 

However I think its best we consider Exar Kun pre-ritual because we have conflicting accounts on whether he became a spirit at that point or not and more importantly it becomes guess work as to how powerful he was.

 

...hmmm REAL Most Powerful Spirit's anyone?

 

So essentially Exar Kun is losing his ability to transfer his essence, despite the fact he never learnt the technique, it came to him naturally, he had such a knowledge of Sith Sorcery that he was able to release himself from his body and then reconstruct one using the minds and/or sacrifices of others, that is one of the things that the power he gained from the rituals, allowed him to do.

[Beniboybling]

So essentially Exar Kun is losing his ability to transfer his essence, despite the fact he never learnt the technique, it came to him naturally, he had such a knowledge of Sith Sorcery that he was able to release himself from his body and then reconstruct one using the minds and/or sacrifices of others, that is one of the things that the power he gained from the rituals, allowed him to do.

Erm, no. Not that it really matters, essence transfer is a pure knowledge based power.

 

Anyone with a grasp of the Force can learn it.

[Beniboybling]

I was never happy with Traya as #9... Glad I'm not the only one!

 

Oh, also. She'd have been more powerful than the Exile, with ease, if she was not a wound. It took out her ability to use Force Drain.

 

She'd also eat Revan for breakfast

Well not really, being robbed or a specific ability does not diminish one's power in anyway. Sure if the Exile had not been a wound its highly possible she would have been defeated, but not because she was less powerful.

 

And I think Revan would prove to powerful for her. Perhaps.

[LadyKulvax]

Erm, no. Not that it really matters, essence transfer is a pure knowledge based power.

 

Anyone with a grasp of the Force can learn it.

 

He had no knowledge of it, he did it of his own will, do remember how bane had to learn the technique in the first place.

[Beniboybling]

He had no knowledge of it, he did it of his own will, do remember how bane had to learn the technique in the first place.

Well that's nice. Like I said I'm not banning this ability or anything. Just saying this is Kun pre-ritual.

[LadyKulvax]

Well that's nice. Like I said I'm not banning this ability or anything. Just saying this is Kun pre-ritual.

 

Well that is kind of the point, he got that ability from absorbing half a million Massassi, he couldn't have done it beforehand, it is also why his spirit was so damned powerful for so long.

[Beniboybling]

Well that is kind of the point, he got that ability from absorbing half a million Massassi, he couldn't have done it beforehand, it is also why his spirit was so damned powerful for so long.

Well, that's irrelevant really. The fact that he did proves he could do it, whether this incarnation did it or not he was capable of it. Anyway, any more opinions on the task at hand?

[Aurbere]

Well, that's irrelevant really. The fact that he did proves he could do it, whether this incarnation did it or not he was capable of it. Anyway, any more opinions on the task at hand?

 

Vader vs. Exar Kun? No idea. They seem equal to me. I could probably make a decision after they met in The BattleZone.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Aurbere

[Beniboybling]

Vader vs. Exar Kun? No idea. They seem equal to me. I could probably make a decision after they met in The BattleZone.

I mean Traya vs Malgus. Post #684 people. Edited October 12, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

I mean Traya vs Malgus. Post #684 people.

 

Oh. Well, I don't know. I would have to think on it more.

[Darkondo]

Soo when's Malgus dropping a spot or from the list altogether?

[Aurbere]

Soo when's Malgus dropping a spot or from the list altogether?

 

And who would replace him?

[Darkondo]

And who would replace him?

 

As much as I want to say Darth Jadus, or a few other sith in Malgus's own timeline due to lack of information right now this isn't possible. I'd like to at least nominate Darth Nyriss in the mix as she took on and easily bested both Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik (who's on the top 10 most powerful jedi list.)

 

Also if Darth Sion is able to be considered, i'd like to nominate him for a spot over Malgus as well as I feel that he displayed a far greater connection to his hatred with the force than Malgus ever did. And I don't believe that Malgus's kills in battle are really that impressive or could be any more impressive than say Sion's confirmed kill of Lonna Vash (JC member albeit during a low point but still a JC member nonetheless) considering that Ven Zallow (a jedi battlemaster) was Malgus's best kill.

[AshlaBoga]

1. Sidious (He's #1 according to canon)

2. Sith Emperor

3. Darth Nihilius

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

9.

10.