At some point, Vitiate commenced his galactic-busting ritual on Dromund Kaas but he dispatched his minions to orchestrate chaos in these worlds to fuel his galaxy-busting ritual. The entire chapter 3 of Jedi Knight story is about sabotaging Vitiate's galaxy-busting ritual.

Based on this conversation: - It is safe to assume that the Opticron droids were referring to the galaxy-busting ritual. Opticron droids and the Hands likely felt that Vitiate would orchestrate the galaxy-busting ritual (again) after his recovery. This is hinted even in a codex entry. However, Vitiate seems to have cancelled or postponed his galaxy-busting ritual after his recovery. His KoTFE story arc is in progress at present. "He may have grown more powerful" is really understating it. Vitiate became much more powerful in the aftermath: Moreover, Revan believed in the possibility of Vitiate being a planet-buster during his time. This is hinted in Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan. Vitiate is officially stated to be an almost godlike avatar of the Dark Side during the era of Revan. ---- Raw power (and) Command of the Force collectively determine ALTER abilities of a Force-user. Vitiate spent centuries honing his talents in the Dark Side: Vitiate also fueled his raw power with extensive use of Force Drain powers for a long time:

It is an assumption. We do not know. Those droids did not mention Ziost. Neither the Hands and nor those droids make an appearance during the Ziost based story arc of Vitiate. Vitiate have come a long way since then. He have grown much more powerful and masterful in the ways of the Dark Side since the Nathema event.

Vitiate orchestrated his galaxy-busting ritual during the times of Great Galactic War (Chapter III of the Jedi Knight story arc) but agents of the Republic and Sith manage to stop him. Disruption of this ritual backfires on Vitiate and he is struck down by the Jedi Knight on Dromund Kaas. Vitiate then proceeds to Yavin IV to recuperate and recover his strength. It is possible that the Opticron droids were tasked to prepare for Vitiate's galaxy-busting ritual or some other ritual but they were struck down by the Sith Warrior. As far as I am aware, Opticron droids do not make an appearance in the Ziost based story arc of Vitiate (because of the obvious).

The so-called evidence is not definite and/or lacking. Opticron droids were not witnessed on Ziost. They may have been tasked to prepare for Vitiate's galaxy-busting ritual. Who knows? Their disclosures are open to interpretation and only the Hands could understand them (as Servant One pointed out to Sith Warrior during a conversation). If devastation of Ziost was indeed a ritualistic event, BioWare would have simply disclosed it as such in the codex entry.

Too bad! Sith Warrior destroyed the Opticron droids before the events of battle with Revan on Yavin IV.

She isn't disclosing full details.

Can you provide video evidence? I have checked a relevant video and did not find proof of your claim in it. Moreover, Sith Warrior destroys the Opticrons droids.

If people want to exclude Vitiate from the rankings, no hard feelings.

Well, I don't have an issue with this.

Vitiate is an ENTITY. Both his corporeal and non-corporeal demonstrations are valid.

Agreed. Vitiate unleashed his most potent Force Drain power after forces of the Republic and Sith attempted to stop him from from spreading chaos in the planet using electrostatic weapons and other stuff. Interestingly, Vitiate warned the protagonist about his decision to destroy the world, Vitiate stated that he is giving the protagonist a chance to live. I assume that he did this on purpose.

Here: This is the evidence? The Opticrons were referring to Vitiate's galaxy-busting ritual. Sith Warrior also experienced a vision in which he witnessed Vitiate's galaxy-busting ritual in effect, consuming living beings and destroying cosmic bodies (including stars) throughout the galaxy. See above! She did not provide any evidence. Here is official description of Ziost related event: Revan's plan was to perform a ritual on Yavin IV, with aid of arcane machines, to destroy this world and restore Vitiate to his true form so he could be struck down. However, a Strike Team stopped Revan and Vitiate demonstrated (through his actions) that he did not need any ritual to restore himself. Vitiate then proceeded to Ziost and consumed it, restoring his power. Ziost related event is a legitimate demonstration of Vitiate's ALTER abilities. It is not a ritual. Years later, we witness Vitiate in corporeal form (as Valkorion) but this is also a mask: Vitiate is an entity, he doesn't needs biological vessels to exist and influence the external environment.

Thanks for the share. Now, let us analyze the quote. The first half of the statement implies that Palpatine is unparalleled practitioner of the Dark Side in his era [no ifs and buts in this case]. The second half implies that Palpatine "may be" the most powerful Sith in galactic history. So basically, even the authors are now in doubt about promoting Palpatine as the most powerful in the galactic history among Sith. Authors were never in doubt about making a similar judgement in older sources. Now, this matter is open to debate. Valkorion is (not) a Sith. He pretended to be one for a long time but his true-self eventually came to light. He is an entity and officially promoted as such in the latest SWTOR content. I doubt that this book covers the entire history of Valkorion and entire SWTOR content. I will provide a detailed comparison of both in some days. If you (and/or anybody else) wants to share some content with me (via PM), you (and/or anybody else) is welcome to do so. Any input is welcome.

Signed.

@Aurbere Those are some of the best arguments I have seen for Revan in a span of years. Such intellect. So much research. Impressive. I shall make a comprehensive comparison of Valkorion and Palpatine [might take a few days]. I can check important information about Palpatine in comicvine blogs but if you want me to consult sources of information about Palpatine [which you personally deem as really important] then let me know. I intend to make a fair comparison and cover all important points. I am (particularly) interested in information about instances of failures of Palpatine because his merits are largely highlighted and failures are largely concealed. For example, did Palpatine failed to foresee something? I don't intend to gloss over stuff in the manner like Palpatine and Valkorion are so awesome, I will pay attention to the context of failures [of both characters] so that I can make a realistic assessment that doesn't gives the vibe of favoritism to any character. I would also appreciate information about Palpatine's power progression with passage of time. I have some information in this regard but further input will be appreciated.

This is why black and white comparisons are not fair, specially when comparing entities. One really shines in disembodied form (i.e. Valkorion) while the other really shines in corporeal form (i.e. Palpatine). However, we should focus on the context as well. As I pointed out earlier, Palpatine used cloned bodies during the events of DE and could afford to overlook their well-being. In contrast, Valkorion didn't use cloned bodies and was more calculative in his actions due to reasons that have also been mentioned earlier. If you are hell bent on black and white comparisons then compare both in disembodied and corporeal forms [separately]. However, I prefer a holistic comparison in which context behind each decision, action and revelation is taken in to consideration. I would not have an issue with a theory (if) it seems to be flawless and doesn't have noticeable loopholes. However, I have noticed some loopholes in your theory and I am attempting to address them [only]. After reading your [relevant] blog on comicvine, a reader gets the impression that Valkorion somehow becomes all-powerful and is able to do stuff [in disembodied form] that he cannot otherwise because [insert Cosmic Force nonsense here]. However, a codex entry makes it absolutely clear that Valkorion used (his) immense powers to do stuff on Ziost (Plain and simple); your argument that the Cosmic Force somehow amplified Valkorion's abilities [in disembodied form] does not fly. Valkorion is not a Force ghost and he is not one with the Force, period (he may give the vibe of being a Force ghost but he is actually different). Now, even a typical Force ghost is far from being all-powerful (the most a typical Force ghost can do is to manifest anywhere at any moment where living beings are present and manipulate the physical realm in a limited fashion; nothing grand or planet-busting level). Otherwise, Force ghosts would have altered the history. Valkorion is not more potent in use of (any) Force power in disembodied form then he is in corporeal form. In-fact, Arcann noticed that Valkorion have been compromised to some extent after loosing his Voice [in KoTFE]. Primary differences between Vakorion's disembodied and corporeal forms are that Valkorion can traverse vast distances unaided [in disembodied form] which is not possible with a corporeal vessel without a formal means of transport and Valkorion cannot be stopped through conventional means [in disembodied form]. Furthermore, Valkorion may not channel his full power through a corporeal vessel because he risks harming it in the process. This is what I acknowledge. Also, concentrate on some feats of the Dread Masters and Darth Caedus. They have done some crazy stuff as mere mortals; the Dread Masters even more-so. We (as players) witnessed the Dread Masters cast realistic illusions, create mind traps, slow down time, resurrect dead beings, teleport [themselves and players] and even Flow-walk during combat situations. Yes, Dread Masters would often work [in unison] to do some crazy stuff but each Dread Master is (officially) a master of the Dark Side of the Force. There is no reason to believe that Valkorion cannot do the same in corporeal form just because we didn't witness him doing so since he is more masterful in the ways of the Force then each of the aforementioned Sith. CIP: Valkorion haven't choked anybody during a confrontation so should we assume that he cannot? Indeed.

Valkorion [is] an entity, right? Valkorion doesn't needs corporeal vessels to exist, maintain his power and manipulate the physical realm [He confirms this in KoTFE]. He have apparently achieved immortality; an accomplishment for which he invested considerable time and explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the Dark Side. Valkorion [completely] shed his mortal coil ever since he developed his (first) Voice. He [will be] portrayed in both disembodied and corporeal forms when story demands it. Therefore, if Valkorion is being included in the rankings, all of his feats should be considered for evaluation. We have witnessed a number of characters retaining their identity after corporeal demise. Examples include Yoda, Luke Skywalker, Palpatine, Revan, Karness Muur and Exar Kun. Yoda and Luke Skywalker died naturally but Palpatine cheated corporeal death. Exar Kun performed a ritual to shed his mortal coil and cheat corporeal death and Karness Muur transferred his essence into an artifact for reasons he knows best. More importantly, we know how each turns out to be after corporeal demise. Their capabilities are not hidden. The DE representation of Palpatine is similar to that of Valkorion. However, some differences are apparent: Palpatine (during the events of DE) had no regard for the safety of a cloned body [that he used as a vessel] and channeled his full power through it (Palpatine metaphorically abused a cloned body in this manner and it would deteriorate due to his heavy Dark Side practices and activities); this makes sense because Palpatine had virtually endless supply of cloned bodies and they were expendable. Palpatine was also apparently restricted in his ability to manipulate the physical realm in disembodied form; he needed a corporeal vessel to unlock his powers to full extent. Therefore, Palpatine desired a body of a strong Force-sensitive so he would be complete like was in earlier times. Valkorion have been calculative in his actions in corporeal form because he was not willing to harm his original body until he could cheat corporeal death. Even after shedding his mortal coil, he remained calculative in his actions because; [1] his Voices were (not) cloned bodies but [actual] living beings; and [2] acts [of great destruction and evil] would draw unnecessary attention and more would turn against him. Those who somehow find about his intentions and history, were willing to go to any extent to stop him and his (supposed) demise was welcomed by some. However, the ancient Sith Empire officially disowned Valkorion after the events of Ziost and was willing to work with the Republic and the Jedi Order to destroy him through any means necessary. However, Valkorion eventually achieved immortality and he was no longer concerned about the loss of a corporeal vessel (as noted in KoTFE). However, Valkorion has not harmed the Outlander (yet). My point is that every entity is not the same. They vary in power and capabilities just like living beings. I (do) understand your theories but I have noticed loopholes in them and point them out to you at times. Your theories are not infallible, dear. Valkorion is an entity and his abilities should not be in doubt because he defies logic and conventional limits by virtue of his nature and strength. Did you miss this response? http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=790858&page=497 I suggest that you look at this thread as well: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/the-dread-masters-respect-thread/97192/ (You will notice some crazy stuff that mere mortals have done or can do) I am doing just that. Good to know. I am willing to acknowledge the possibility that Valkorion may not go absolutely ballistic in corporeal form but I don't see a reason to doubt his abilities even in corporeal form. He (officially) consistently grew in power with passage of time, remember?

Thank you I believe that Valkorion is not getting a fair representation in this thread. Reason is that his feats [in disembodied form] are being largely ignored on the grounds of a theory that he is a manifestation of cosmic force in this form. If a Force-user can become a world-buster as a Force ghost and/or disembodied form, then what stopped Yoda from destroying the Death Star by himself after becoming one? To be honest, Valkorion's top showings are [in his disembodied form] because he is not constrained in this form by a vessel's natural limitations and they are superior to anything Palpatine have demonstrated. Valkorion's actions in disembodied form are representative of his true power [Cosmic Force theory just doesn't fly], Otherwise, every Force ghost would become a world-buster or worse. In plain words: I mean, how explicit can BioWare be? But hardly anybody is willing to challenge views of Beniboybling in this community because most cannot fathom a TOR era character being stronger then their favorites in later eras. It is blasphemy. Besides, some feats of Valkorion have been demonstrated by Dread Masters and Darth Caedus in mortal form. Another indication that Beniboybling is jumping to conclusions.

Interesting, never thought about it in this way. I fully appreciate the fact that you do not dismiss revelations on the grounds of them challenging your perceptions, you find a way to accommodate them with rationalization. And this is important. If we start dismissing official revelations then we aren't going to be objective in debates. We will be picking and choosing among revelations to promote our personal agendas which isn't sound. Point is that Valkorion [can] negatively affect and/or ruin the Light Side alignment and/or attunement to the Force of even the strongest Jedi [insert rationalization about hows here]. We can safely assume that we are not aware of the full extent of Valkorion's capabilities since he spent centuries honing his talents in the Dark Side and he is [explicitly] stated to have explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the Dark Side in the process. I even provided examples in which it is clear that Valkorion doesn't necessarily goes all-out in the use of his telepathic powers. He is often careful in using them since he have history of destroying the minds of some Jedi with his telepathic powers.

Kira Carsen was lightyears distance away from Valkorion at that time. She also had Hero of Tython at her side, possibly assisting her in breaking free from his influence. You need to focus on details, friend. Also, sheer raw power doesn't guarantees resistance against telepathic powers. Force-users (stronger then Kira Carsen) failed to tackle Valkorion's telepathic influence on their own. Even Hero of Tython couldn't overcome Valkorion's telepathic influence by himself until the Force ghost of Orgus Din manifested around him and assisted him in this regard. I know which event you have been referring to. Perhaps Hero of Tython is an exception to the norm but his case is not applicable to Luke Skywalker and Yoda by default. Kira Carsen did not go because she was vulnerable, simple. As for the sources, they are not (mine); they are official and part of the SWTOR lore. It is true that Valkorion can break even the strongest Jedi [strongest being the key word here]. Because as I pointed out earlier, raw power (alone) doesn't guarantees protection in this regard. Willpower and experience are more important factors. Suppose that the Outlander is Hero of Tython, why his companions are still worried about his telepathic link with Valkorion? Because they understand that Valkorion cannot be underestimated. What if Valkorion eventually takes control of the Outlander? This would be a worrisome situation for the resistance movement. People are jumping to conclusions here before the story have been completed. The relevant novel doesn't reveals (exactly when and how) Valkorion established a telepathic link with Revan. Details of this procedure have not been provided. We are just informed that this somehow happened. Valkorion strengthened his telepathic link with Revan with a ritual apparatus so that Revan would not be able to break it. There was lightyears distance between the two and if the link breaks, Valkorion would have pay a visit to Revan to reestablish it which he didn't deem practical because he had other matters to attend to. You are overlooking Meetra Surik's assistance in this matter: No Jedi could handle such pressures on his own. Valkorion's motive is to establish a telepathic link with the Outlander (irrespective of who he is). His motive isn't to control the Outlander for story-telling purpose [yet]. We don't really know what Valkorion intends to do with the Outlander. Perhaps this is true. Perhaps not. Valkorion could be bluffing. He wanks every Outlander in some way. See above. I am not making excuses, I have supported my arguments with official information. You are ignoring some official revelations because they challenge your agenda. I am not asserting that Valkorion's telepathic powers are infallible, I am simply pointing out that they should not be underestimated. Sheer raw power doesn't guarantees resistance against telepathic powers; additional factors make difference as well such as experience and willpower. Experience enables a Force-user to develop and/or master new techniques to counter a threat. Force-users (stronger then Kira Carsen) failed to tackle Valkorion's telepathic influence on their own. Even Hero of Tython couldn't overcome Valkorion's telepathic influence by himself until the Force ghost of Orgus Din manifested around him and assisted him in this regard. Valkorion's ability to break even the strongest Jedi is not a far-fetched and/or surprising revelation. The statement doesn't implies that a Jedi of great strength would remain a pwn forever and/or Valkorion's telepathic powers are infallible, just that even the strongest Jedi is not invincible because it takes more than raw power to successfully resist (potent) telepathic powers. Suppose that the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy [from another era] confronts Valkorion; it is possible that this Jedi may succumb to Valkorion's telepathic influence because he have no idea how potent Valkorion's telepathic powers are and his current defensive abilities are insufficient.

My point of contention is that Valkorion's telepathic abilities should not be underestimated. My arguments are grounded in published literature. Kira Carson did not accompany Hero of Tython for his mission to confront Emperor Valkorion on Dromund Kaas. Why not? Because she was vulnerable to his telepathic influence [You cannot take her with you after setting her free from captivity (even if you wanted to)]. Heck, even the Grand Jedi Master Satele Shan was hesitant to accompany Hero of Tython in this mission due to obvious reasons (you can learn this from a dialogue option). This is why Hero of Tython (officially) chose T7-01 droid to assist him in this mission. Hero of Tython is the (only) Jedi in the galaxy [in his era] to have developed a credible countermeasure against telepathic powers. Others are absolutely vulnerable.

My assessment is grounded in published literature. Hero of Tython and Revan developed the capability to resist Valkorion's telepathic influence to some extent and arguably prevent him from reducing them to a mindless drone but they could not prevent his intrusion into their minds against their will. Do keep in mind that Revan's mind eventually fractured under pressure of his telepathic tug-of-war with Valkorion; this set the stage of splintering of Revan later on. If you play the Outlander as Hero of Tython and refuse to bend the knee, Valkorion will establish a telepathic link with you against your will, knocking you unconscious in the process (your Chapter 2 experience will be similar to those of other protagonists) but Valkorion will not make an attempt to control you just like in the case of an Outlander based on other protagonists. Telepathic link between the Outlander and Valkorion appears to be similar to that of a Hand with Valkorion in the past. Now suppose that the Outlander is a smuggler, you believe that Valkorion cannot control his mind? It wouldn't put much stock on the dialogues in this regard.

I appreciate your honesty. You're welcome. Cin Drallig once stated this: Form VII, also called Juyo, is the most difficult and demanding of all the forms. Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control this discipline, which can lead to fantastic power and skill." I am not sure if (multiple) dueling Forms indicate (all) dueling Forms. However, as disclosed earlier, the Sith Warriors (of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire) preferred to master Shii-Cho, Soresu, Shien and Juyo Forms. So these are a given. As for the supposed advantage, I don't think that it is necessary to master (all) dueling Forms to have an edge in a strictly Lightsaber duel. Look no further then the outcome of a duel between Anakin Skywalker and Cin Drallig. Each dueling Form have a history behind its conception and represents a mindset. Each have a shortcoming as well and it is foolish to assume that any dueling Form is (technically) infallible. Effectiveness in a Lightsaber duel is not just dependent upon technical skill but even more-so on additional factors such as effective utilization of personal strengths, sync between the mindset and a dueling Form, command of the Force and tactics. A Jedi may (technically) master all dueling Forms but not all of them will psychologically appeal to him. Skywalker preferred Form V because it enabled him to utilize his immense raw power effectively; this is how he overwhelmed Count Dooku. Contrary to the popular belief, Dooku was not an inferior swordsman in this case. In reality, Skywalker had advantage in strength and put it to good use in this case. Now this was not a sudden breakthrough as some might assume; Skywalker had fought Dooku several times before and learned (from experience) how to effectively utilize his personal strengths and address his shortcomings to defeat Dooku. Similarly, Darth Malgus apparently switched to Form V after his failure to achieve a breakthrough in a duel against Jedi Master Kao Cen Darach; and when he (i.e. Darth Malgus) switched to Form V, the tide of this battle shifted decisively in his favor. Reason is that Darth Malguus was able to bring his immense raw power to bear effectively after switching to Form V and he overwhelmed Darach as a consequence. Again, Darach was not an inferior swordsman. However, Darth Malgus had advantage in strength and put it to good use. Now, did you ever wonder why Dooku didn't switch to Form VI to tackle Skywalker? Form VI enables a Force-user to create opportunities to use his Force powers effectively during a confrontation. Dooku was a powerful Force-user and specialized in its offensive use. However, he had reached an understanding with Palpatine (earlier) to lure Skywalker to the Dark side and if things go wrong then Palpatine would intervene and save him. Unfortunately for Dooku, he didn't suspect Palpatine's treachery and paid the price. Not trying to cheapen Skywalker's performance but pointing out another side of the story (published) that is often overlooked. Without such an understanding, I believe that Dooku could create an opportunity to escape at minimum (if not win). Darach also had adopted hybrid combat style. He utilized Trakata (a rarely practiced and acknowledged talent) which enables a Jedi to activate a secondary Lightsaber during an opportunistic moment to catch the opponent off-guard; this is how Darach impaled the unsuspecting Lord Vindican. Exar Kun is rumored to have practiced Trakata. However, I am not sure if Darth Vader ever did. George Lucas is largely irrelevant now. At least, I don't put much stock in his sayings unless it becomes absolutely necessary (my policy is same for the sayings of all authors). Published literature directly contradicts this assertion and therefore I get the impression that this assertion is not officially recognized as a part of continuity. I didn't notice (many) powerful Jedi during the PT era. Yoda, Mace Windu, Count Dooku, Plo Koon, Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Shaak Ti are the only names that come to mind. There might be some others but they are not powerhouses and/or lack publicity. See above. Well, you may blame poor publicity or story-telling in this case. Logically, Drallig should not suck but his poor performance in canon does not bodes well for his reputation. Why officially hype a character as one of the most skilled only to give it fodder treatment? Doesn't sounds like good story-telling. General Grievous is another (over) glorified warrior. He used dirty tactics to defeat Nahdar vebb, lost to Kit Fisto, lost to Asajj Ventress, failed to defeat Ahsoka Tano and lost to Obi-Wan Kenobi. No matter how much the Legends content hyped him, his failures should not be overlooked. He acquired the reputation of being a coward for a reason. Darth Malgus was not the only standout warrior among those who raided the Jedi Temple on Coruscant. His peers included Lord Praven who was also a fantastic warrior and officially defeated one of the finest warriors of the Jedi Order in an epic duel during this battle. He also defeated Jedi Master Bella Kiwiiks in a confrontation some years later and represented a (Boss) opponent for the legendary Hero of Tython in STORY CONTENT. Eye-witnesses on Tatooine claimed that they have never witnessed a warrior whose skills matched Lord Praven's. Now, I am not asserting that (each) Sith Warrior involved in the raid of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant was on the level of Sith Lords such as Darth Malgus and Lord Praven but (each) was officially impressive and handpicked for this mission. They numbered 50 in total and collectively killed hundreds of Jedi inside the Jedi Temple while suffering few losses. Therefore, their is no guarantee that Drallig could contend with all of them [1 on 1]. Here: "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that." (George Lucas) This is authentic. Palpatine doesn't have absolute knowledge of everything (some mistakenly presume that he is all-knowing). His assessment is based on what he knows, and his knowledge about history of Darth Malgus is also limited. Tulak Hord killed over a thousand Jedi in a short span and his combat prowess and incredible power inspired legends for years to come. He never lost in a battle. Centuries later, Darth Traya remarked that the Jedi of her time were like children playing with toys in comparison to legends like Hord.* He was just as formidable in Force abilities; he developed new powers and conducted deadly experiments with Sith Sorcery to hone his Dark Side abilities (much like Valkorion) and his telekinetic powers were sufficient to affect massive vessels like Yoda. I believe that Tulak Hord eclipsed all ancients barring Valkorion and I wouldn't compare Darth Vader to him. *When I came to know about this, I was like *** in a funny way. Regarding that opinion of Mace Windu; Jedi are known to be humble in their perceptions about their peers and hold them in high regard. I wouldn't take such opinions at face value unless I know the context. Obi-Wan Kenobi once remarked that Kit Fisto was relatively superior swordsman then him and I find this opinion questionable based on on-screen portrayals of both. Even if Fisto is comparable to Kenobi in technical skill, Kenobi is more powerful and therefore have advantage. This hype is from Prima Official Game Guide for The Force Unleashed II. I am not sure if Prima Official Guides are valid sources to hype a character. I have never cited these sources in my debates so far. Jerec damaged the docking bay which led to a Cargo ship falling into a massive pit below. The fall of Cargo ship was an indirect consequence of damage inflicted to the docking bay; Jerec didn't directly affect the Cargo ship with his powers. Besides, didn't Kyle Katarn survive that incident? Darth Malgus, by virtue of being acknowledged as one of the strongest predecessors of Darth Sidious, should be logically above many powerhouses throughout the galactic timeline. But you are overlooking the aspect of destruction of an incoming squadron of Republic Starfighters; Darth Malgus's expression of anger spanned to such an extent and/or much of its energy dispersed in the air since Darth Malgus's attention was drawn towards the incident of a (falling) Harrower-class Starship at a distance earlier and it fueled his anger. Now, you pointed out that Force Screams are involuntary expressions of raw power so it is possible that the energy released from them are unpredictable in their patterns of contact; they might be potent on one end but not so much on the other end. However, these expressions can still be considered as valid examples of capabilities of a Force-user in the aspects of raw power. Should they try voluntarily, they may achieve comparable results. For example, a Force Scream unleashed by Darth Malgus during a moment of anger inside the Jedi Temple, collapsed one of its nearby columns. So if Darth Malgus attempts the same voluntarily, I don't see a reason why he cannot achieve the same result. Darth Malgus have demonstrated comparable potency years before his prime; see my explanation above. I don't have an idea of the size of this Cathedral. Can you show me a picture? Darth Malgus doesn't have such monumental showings but he defeated a powerful Jedi who managed to collapse two (damaged) buildings simultaneously in an effort to crush the Sith Lord beneath tons of rubble but his plan failed. This event also took place years before Darth Malgus reached his prime. --- But Darth Vader failed to defeat Starkiller, right? Now, even if Darth Vader have some superior individualistic showings, we have the element of power-scaling to take in to consideration for Darth Malgus since most of his feats represent events years before his prime. The book does not reveals how Darth Sidious learned about Force Maelstrom from Darth Malgus but we can make assumptions. It is possible that Darth Sidious found a holocron of Darth Malgus and checked it. Fair point. No. And these two powers can be game-changers, my friend. For example, Darth Malgus defeated Aryn Leener with Force Lightning. Darth Vader did not delve into the matters of Sith Sorcery much due to the limitations imposed on him by his suit. I am not sure if Force Orb is an invention of Kit Fisto; never implied as such. You make an interesting point here but I don't think that this would be sufficient to dampen Darth Malgus's resolve. And what if Darth Malgus decides to call upon a Force Maelstrom? Darth Vader might be overwhelmed. No problem. And I appreciate your debating effort. Even if we are at an impasse, we shared a great deal of information. At least, I got the opportunity to discuss Darth Malgus in detail in this debate.

Valkorion did not just posses those specialized Jedi but also many individuals across the planet. Two official statements reveal that he managed to possess the entire planet's populace at some point: & If Valkorion can telepathically influence countless individuals against their will, he can do the same to a single Jedi of great strength. It is much easier to concentrate on a single target. Moreover, Valkorion does not necessarily goes all-out with his telepathic powers. For example, he broke Revan and Malak simultaneously with a fraction of his power when they confronted him for the first time. Similarly, he overwhelmed Lord Scourge with a telepathic assault that ended in a split-second duration; his intention was not to break Lord Scourge or harm his mind and therefore limited his assault. However, SWTOR (Encyclopedia) reveals that he outright destroyed the minds of some Jedi who attempted to challenge him like Revan and Malak.