The REAL Most Powerful Sith

[xxwolfbloodxx]

, if Caedus had an affinity with Sith Magic and if he had long time to study it he might well have been able to perform feats on the scale of the Sith Emperor.

 

But because he does not - and we cannot fault him for not - we cannot make a direct comparison.

 

This is like saying I'm 5"11 if I was as big as Shaq I would have been a better center than him. But since I am not that big you can't hold it against me.

The fact is Caedus did not have an affinity with sith magic. We are comparing their power so we should consider everything that shows their power. As I have stated before wookieepedia says that sith magic was as much a part of the darkside as force lighting.

 

But I do agree with you when you say caedus did not perform feats on the scale of the sith emperor.

[StarSquirrel]

Where is the source on this? I don't remember anywhere that said they where willing to let their minds be dominated.

How about when his own apprentice decided she didn't want to be dominated she betrayed him to the republic and resulted on an assault on Korriban... Makes sense that other Sith where either pathetically weak or willing.

[Darth_Omega]

How about when his own apprentice decided she didn't want to be dominated she betrayed him to the republic and resulted on an assault on Korriban... Makes sense that other Sith where either pathetically weak or willing.

 

Her mind was never dominated by him. Those sith? They may have been somewhat willing, but they were very hesitant, and he didn't just trick them into doing it, he forced them to.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Darth_Omega

[StarSquirrel]

Her mind was never dominated by him. Those sith? They may have been somewhat willing, but they were very hesitant, and he didn't just trick them into doing it, he forced them to.

 

Yes it was, else she'd not have heard his voice across half a galaxy. She was dominated when she entered his presence.

He Hollowed me and filled me with his strength.

This is straight from Blood of the Empire Vol. 1. She realized what that meant and resisted unlike the other Sith.

To be the Emperor's heir is one thing, but to be his pawn is another, and I won't suffer that insult--- Not after everything I gave him!

Hence we see her and not the others who had been in that same position before her going and betraying the Emperor. Edited August 1, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Darth_Omega]

Yes it was, else she'd not have heard his voice across half a galaxy. She was dominated when she entered his presence. This straight from Blood of the Empire Vol. 1. She realized what that meant and resisted unlike the other Sith. Hence we see her and not the others who had been in that same position before her going and betraying the Emperor.

 

Did he attempt to dominate her when she betrayed him? Was she currently in his presence when she effectively betrayed him?

Edited August 1, 2013 by Darth_Omega

[StarSquirrel]

Did he attempt to dominate her when she betrayed him? Was she currently in his presence when she effectively betrayed him?

 

Hmm, the book doesn't say, though she heard his voice in her head the entire time so I'd assume she'd been dominated and he'd imparted his essence on her. Either way, proximity is less of an issue (or should be) once a subject is dominated if I recall correctly.

Edited August 1, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[S_W_LeGenD]

1. Force concealment: the concealment of the Emperor's children was sustained not by the Emperor, but by the First Son, and while the Emperor likely had a hand in 'programming' the First Son to do this is would have been sustained by the First Sons power. This becomes most evident when by killing the First Son the Children are exposed and the Emperor seemingly incapable of re-concealing them of his own accord. Regardless it remains a basic display of Force concealment compared to Caedus' unprecedented talents.

Didn't the First Son and Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) fell on the same day?

 

Also, "children" received formal training in the ways of the dark side or Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) unlocked such powers in them when he activated them?

 

I don't feel this is grounds for disputing Caedus' superiority in this category, so I reaffirm that he remains superior and that his abilities are indeed unprecedented. I don't think there is anything more to be said here.

To me, this seems like as if you are using the "loopholes" (see questions above) in the story of the Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) to justify his (supposed) inferiority in these abilities in comparison to Caedus.

 

1. Foresight: "High accuracy" is the wrong terminology, high clarity perhaps but the spontaneity of said visions point to the opposite. Only Traya is an exception to this rule, and only because she was bolstered by the incredible dark side nexus surrounding Malachor V and the Trayus Academy. The fact that Caedus could predict events with even greater accuracy without such aid only emphasizes his impressiveness.

Examples? Sources? (Caedus related)

 

Your attempts to degrade Sidious' abilities in foresight are logically flawed, because unlike the Sith Emperor he has displayed an exceptional ability in foresight, foreseeing everything other than his death - which it should be noted is incredibly dificult to predict.

1. Sidious was surprised to see Jedi Strike Team approaching his office

 

After this event, Sidious commenced Order 66 to prevent further assassination attempts on him.

 

2. Sidious was surprised to see Yoda approaching his office

 

"Master Yoda... you survived." (Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith)

 

3. Sidious failed to foresee betrayal of Vader

 

"Angered by Luke's unwillingness to follow his father's path, the Emperor releases a storm of Sith lightning on the Jedi. But failing to forsee Luke's defiance, the Emperor reveals that his powers are fallible, and a wounded Vader realizes that Palpatine can be destroyed." (Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide)

 

4. Sidious failed to foresee his downfall

 

To be honest, foresight abilities are not an ideal method to determine "power factor" of a character. Characters will be always infallible in this aspect; otherwise, the purpose of storytelling is diminished.

 

"Always in motion is the future." (Jedi Master Yoda)

 

I advice you to heed Yoda's advice in this case.

 

In addition, foresight abilities are more likely to be strong point of the Jedi (followers of light side of the Force) in comparison to the Sith (followers of the dark side of the Force). Caedus used to be a Jedi once, remember?

 

 

As Revan suspected, his jailer had never experienced a vision through the Force. It wasn’t unusual: the phenomenon was much rarer in those who followed the dark side. Their focus was internal—they used the Force as a tool, rather than seeing themselves as instruments of the Force’s will. They were not accustomed to opening themselves up to the Force for guidance and direction. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

 

 

Now you get the picture?

 

Only with the help of the Voss was the Sith Emperor able to predict his death. To believe that the Sith Emperor has greater or similar abilities in Foresight to Caedus is pure assumption.

As per my understanding, Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) studied a Voss individual to learn about the prophetic abilities of this species and then created a Voss based Voice. This Voss individual is a source of improvement in foresight abilities of Tenebrae (just like a holocron can be a source of improvement in knowledge of a Force-user). So I don't get the "help of the Voss" part in your statement; sounds like a cheap trick to not acknowledge "talent progression" of Tenebrae in his foresight abilities. In short, this Voss individual was the source of "talent progression" in foresight abilities of Tenebrae and it is permanent improvement for the latter.

 

The vision that the JK recieved from the Voss was not the Emperor communicating with him, but simply the JK seeing a glimpse of the future through the Voss. If you played the other classes you would know that they all recieve similar visions involving vague statements from a key character to their final chapter. Also the futures the Emperor refers to are those given to him by the Voss not visions he achieved alone.

When and where does the Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) gets the vision of his first defeat? Even if he gets the vision on Voss, what proof do you have which suggests that this vision is not his own?

 

Also note I'm not sure when that vision concerning Nankrang took place, but we must remember that the Emperor received many visions of the future through Revan. And exploiting the mental connection he had with his apprentice cannot be classed as a vision, also noting that those with strong connections i.e. Padawan & Master, could communicate with one another across great distances. It is a given the Emperor would be able to do this.

Well, the mysteries of the foresight related abilities of the Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) might be made clear with passage of time. However, as pointed out earlier, followers of the dark side typically do not master this talent but Tenebrae took interest in honing his foresight abilities on the basis of developments around him.

 

Caedus, Revan and Traya used to be Jedi, and therefore, they developed advanced foresight abilities; they had impetus to do so. They will logically have edge in this aspect over majority of individuals in the mythos. In a list dedicated to "power factor" of the characters, this is meaningless comparison. Otherwise, consider a more appropriate name for this thread.

 

Again none of the arguments you present give me reason to reassess Caedus' superiority. Even if we accept that the Sith Emperor had an above-average ability in foresight we still have no grounds for assuming that he surpassed Caedus' unprecedented ability in foresight.

See above

 

1. Telekinesis: you are grasping at some tenuous straws here. Your assumption that they brought down the Citadel through pure telekinesis is entirely unsupported. In fact it is likely not the case as a Kaggath involves the entire powerbases of a given individual. For all we know they could have armies on the ground. Or simply taken out key structures that caused the Citadel to fall, or it could just be a hyperbole. It is certainly not grounds for claiming that the Sith Emperor is superior in telekinesis. That's just a little silly.

If they had armies on the ground then how come other Dark Council members killed them on the spot with their combined might? This event is a not a hyperbole by the way; do not make absurd claims.

 

A new Citadel was constructed afterwards which was different in design from the previous one.

 

Analogy: Malgus once encountered a Jedi Master who also a master telekinetic.

 

2. Lightning: more arbitrary assumptions, your blatantly subjective opinion that Revan facing up to the Emperor was plot induced stupidity only implies you have an over-inflated opinion of the Sith Emperor's ability. And therefore cannot believe that Revan was capable of challenging him. Further reinforced by your tendency to overlook the fact that Revan managing to use tutanimis against the Emperor for even a short amount of time completely refutes your assumption that the Emperor could 'utterly destroy him'. If that were the case Revan would have been incapable of catching the lightning and would have been sent flying and likely reduced to a charred husk - that is the definition of being 'utterly destroyed'. It happened, its canon, deal with it. PIS is not a logical argument on this thread.

My point is that Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) would have reduced him in to a pile of ash; like Revan had reduced Nyriss in to a pile of ash. This might have taken some more seconds?

 

3. Mind Control: Failure? He succeeded in controlling their minds. That is what we are focusing on. Anyway all it is an example of is the fact that lesser Force users are capable of manipulating the minds of others. And while yes the Sith Emperor's feat was likely on a larger scale, surpassing Lord Kaan is not exactly a strong argument in his favour.

Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) have many feats in "mind control" aspect; he is unrivalled in this aspect.

 

And concerning the purge of the Dark Council, I fail to see your point. The DC where not expecting an attack there and then, so likely had their Force barriers down - making them easy targets. Regardless we don't even know what the power was, for all we know it could have been Alter Enviroment, which not only uses minimal amounts of energy but its potency would have been amplified by the electrical storms above the planet.

Excuse me? Are you even reading the spoilers?

 

Those DC members reached the position of Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) to confront him; why would they keep their guard down in this scenario?

 

Do not try to unnecessarily lowball feats of Sith Emperor (Tenebrae).

 

Concerning the storms surrounding Droumund Kaas, I fail to see your point again. Those quotes you provided only reinforce my statement 1. the storms were a product of the dark side energies already surrounding the planet 2. the Emperor had only a hand it it. Like your quote says 'millennia earlier' - many many other Sith have come before the Sith Emperor and added to the dark side miasma surrounding the planet, dark side nexuses manifest in the environment, this is just an example of this. Noting that its never been explicitly confirmed that the Emperor was responsible, its speculation, not fact.

I think you need to consult Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan novel in this regard.

 

 

It was rumored that the perpetual storms of Dromund Kaas were the result of the Emperor performing one of these rituals. Scourge didn’t know if that was true, but he knew that Nyriss had gained her place in the Dark Council through her knowledge and understanding of things he could never hope to fully grasp. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

 

 

"Dromund Kaas' atmosphere was also heavily charged with electricity to the point that lightning was a near-constant sight in the almost perpetually clouded sky; a result of the Sith Emperor's experiments in arcane and forbidden uses of the dark side of the Force." (Wookieepedia)

 

As for everything else you bring up, we have nothing to compare it with, so ya.

 

This is all rather subjective speculation, and unfortunately not grounds for claiming the Sith Emperor is anything other than equal in this field. As you can imagine my opinion remains unchanged in this category,

So your logic is to ignore aspects/feats of Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) where which others do not compare to him? Nice cop out strategy.

Edited August 1, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Selenial]

Beni, old friend, stop.

This is a list of who the community decides are the top 10 Sith, you've tried your hardest to convince LeGenD of his naivety, but it's not working.

He's not going to give up his unrelenting fanboy assault on behalf of his Emperor, so it's time you have up yours and focussed on the Kaggath/BZ... Even if he's convinced, and we don't change his mind, the Majority still favor Caedus/Sidious.

 

There's just no changing some people......

[Beniboybling]

Where is the source on this? I don't remember anywhere that said they where willing to let their minds be dominated.

"Eight thousand agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon."

 

--Taken from the SWTOR Encyclopedia. [pg 161]

 

We can assume that the situation was very much like when Kaan used a mind trick to lull his fellow Sith Lords into completing the thought bomb ritual. The fact that they wanted to believe it would succeed made their minds easier to manipulate. And in the throes of a ritual dominating their minds completely would become an even easier task.

[Beniboybling]

Control: "Control is internal. It is the Jedi's ability to recognize the Force in himself and to use it to his benefit."

 

1. Force concealment. Probably not, the chances of both events happening on the same day is rather slim. All we know is that the death of the Son would result in the Children no longer being concealed, and that the Son was actively concealing him. How this was achieved we do not know, likely through some kind of Sith Magic that drew on their strength. This at least indicates that the Sith Emperor was capable of concealing his presence, but this is a given as the basic levels of this skill were accessible to most - but the idea that it surpassed Caedus' unprecedented talent in the field is very slim indeed.

 

Again I don't think this is grounds for disputing Caedus' superiority in this category. You may call it loop holes, I call it weak evidence being accepted at face value. The grounds that the Sith Emperor was above-average in this field are slim, the grounds that he was superior are entirely non-existent and I'm afraid pure speculation. Speculation unfortunately does not cut it on this thread, we are dealing in ground realities.

 

Sense: "Sense involves the next step, in which the Jedi recognizes the force in the universe outside oneself."

 

1. Foresight: I am no expert on Caedus, and his Wookiee page is lacking, so you will have to look to Rayla for examples on the matter. Not that that will help prove the Sith Emperor's superiority.

 

As for your list of Sidious' lack of foresight, I pointed out to you that it is logically flawed to show examples of Sidious not predicting things because unlike the Sith Emperor he has displayed an exceptional ability in foresight. So I am confused as to why you persist. Nobody is infallible and we cannot expect them to be, but that doesn't change the fact that foresight is a Force power and one that should be considered. Being able to perceive the future with such accuracy - which you kindly point out is often difficult to see - points to an incredibly strong connection to the Force. Especially given the fact that as a Sith Lord who draws on the dark side his ability to see the future should feasibly be diminished, yet it was not - his mastery over the Force is the reason for this.

 

Also you might want to take note of this:

 

Using the powers of Revan[30] and his Voss host[68] to gaze into the future, the Emperor saw the possibility[57] of his own death at the hands of that Jedi.[26]

 

--Sourced from various codex entries.

 

This would seem to point to the Sith Emperor being reliant on others for his visions. We can't make the unsupported assumption that by tapping into the Voss and Revan that he gained their powers in foresight. Else he would have had no further need of them, yet he continued to use the Voss for decades and Revan for centuries. Obviously he did not inherit their powers, which for the record is a process not supported by Star Wars mythos.

 

Again none of the arguments you present give me reason to reassess Caedus' superiority. Even if we accept that the Sith Emperor had an above-average ability in foresight we still have no grounds for assuming that he surpassed Caedus' unprecedented ability in foresight.

 

Alter: "Alter is the third and most difficult area to master, for it involves the student's ability to modify the Force and redistribute its energies."

 

1. Telekinesis: if they had armies on the ground the fighting would have stopped with the death of the DC members. This is how it works, once one or both of the challengers has died or surrendered the Kaggath is over. If you had played the SI storyline you would no that if the DC killed Thanaton and Nox during either of their confrontations, the battle would have ended. Regardless of the fact that they both possessed power bases. Furthermore that is just one possibility, how do you know that it was instant destruction? That it was performed with telekinesis at all? Do you think they both just stood in front of the Citadel and tore it down? Really? You have no idea what happened. All you know is that somehow, someway two DC members managed to destroy the Citadel after a prolonged Kaggath, a rite of Sith that goes beyond the participating individuals. I'm afraid this is not grounds for claiming that the Sith Emperor was a superior telekinetic to Caedus - really the link is so very very tenuous. Even you must realise this. I await evidence of the Sith Emperor perfoming such feats in person.

 

2. Lightning: My point is that in order to incapacitate a powerful Force user instantaneously without them being capable of deflecting said power, the Sith Emperor requires time to prepare. Noting that any Force user more powerful than the other is capable of overwhelming the latter with a stream of lightning, and that by penetrating their Force barriers the conclusion will always be a charred husk. Indeed if Caedus had been in the Sith Emperor position, Revan - being less powerful - would have eventually given way and died. In such a sense it only proves that the Sith Emperor is more powerful than Revan, not that the Sith Emperor can one-shot Jedi of Revan's caliber, he can't.

 

3. Mind Control: Funny, if you hadn't been so hell bent on disagreeing and attempting to degrade every single one of my points you might have noticed that I gave the Sith Emperor the advantage in this field. Unfortunately one advantage against many disadvantages is not enough to secure him the #2 spot.

 

As for your other points, the DC were not in the presence of the Emperor, they were outside the Citadel and likely did not expect an attack at that point - given the fact that their were no hostiles 'in-range' so to speak. But again we don't actually know the nature of this power, it could have (and likely was given the emphasis on the weather) been Alter environment which not only would have been bolstered by the lightning storms, but would have bypassed their Force barriers (if any were present) as natural lightning is a non-Force based attack. And that is without taking into account the fact that the Sith Emperor could have spent a long time in preparation, and possibly even drawn on the dark side nexus of the planet to bolster his power. Something he could have done in many situations for that matter. Also concerning your little quote, I think it is you who need to read it and in particular take note of that very key word: rumored. Again not taking into account the already present dark side nexus surrounding the planet.

 

But in the end I'm not sure what your point is here, being able to inadvertently affect the weather is not exactly a remarkable accomplishment. In fact he has been outclassed by the likes of Darth Plagueis who's simply presence on a planet resulted in a weather change - not dark side nexus needed.

 

Again we find ourselves entering the realm of subjective speculation, we have no hard facts that point to the Sith Emperor being a superior telekinetic, just vague connections between even vaguer happenings. Neither do we have any grounds that the Sith Emperor is a superior wielder of Force lightning, as his instantaneous applications of the power do not in anyway surpass Caedus. No, in the end we cannot say that there are anything other than equals in this category. With any edge being give to Caedus due to his superior ability in telekinesis and Force illusions.

 

And concerning my 'logic' my logic is to make comparison. Not wave about abilities which we cannot make a comparison with and therefore cannot gauge who is superior in the field i.e. pointless bickering. Indeed it would be like claiming that X is better than Y at football despite never actually witnessing Y play football. That I'm afraid is the 'logic' you are trying to enforce here. Indeed you'll find your desire to resort to one-upmanship followed by a degradation of arguments presented as has been done in the past will go unslaked.

 

Indeed this is the beauty of this system, in the end we only need one or two feats from each category to gauge who is superior in said category, as they all rely on similar applications of power. Someone with a strong foresight is going to have a strong Force sense, just like a powerful telekinetic is likely to be a powerful wielder of Force lightning. In the end we are a gauging one thing, the ability to wield the Force. And we do not have to take absolutely everything into account to reach a more than reasonable conclusion.

[Darth_Omega]

Hmm, the book doesn't say, though she heard his voice in her head the entire time so I'd assume she'd been dominated and he'd imparted his essence on her. Either way, proximity is less of an issue (or should be) once a subject is dominated if I recall correctly.

 

She heard his voice because of the force bond they shared, I believe.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Beni, old friend, stop.

This is a list of who the community decides are the top 10 Sith, you've tried your hardest to convince LeGenD of his naivety, but it's not working.

He's not going to give up his unrelenting fanboy assault on behalf of his Emperor, so it's time you have up yours and focussed on the Kaggath/BZ... Even if he's convinced, and we don't change his mind, the Majority still favor Caedus/Sidious.

 

There's just no changing some people......

If you are not capable of offering "constructive debate" yourself, you better mind your own business instead of posting negative remarks about others.

 

Topics such as "most powerful" are predominantly subjective in nature. Their is no official list and perhaps their will never be. I have the right to debate in favor of any character I choose to; you have same right.

 

Be practical and good to others. No need to show your "attitude" towards my debating preferences.

 

You are somewhat correct about "changing" part; fans of Sidious, Luke and Vader are the hardest to convince and reason with.

Edited August 1, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Selenial]

If you are not capable of offering "constructive debate" yourself, you better mind your own business instead of posting negative remarks about others.

 

Topics such as "most powerful" are predominantly subjective in nature. Their is no official list and perhaps their will never be. I have the right to debate in favor of any character I choose to; you have same right.

 

Be practical and good to others. No need to show your "attitude" towards my debating preferences.

 

You are correct about "changing" part; fans of Sidious and Vader are the hardest to convince and reason with.

All the constructive debates are done.

This isn't constructive, because you won't change your mind, or even accept defeat.

 

You are, In fact, waiting all our time. Beni is spending a long time coming up with arguments against someone who's so afraid to admit defeat, they won't stop or change their mind.

When you take up his time, you take up our time. Instead of doing what he enjoys, like the Kaggath or BZ, he's spending ages trying to show you the truth.

 

Problem is, you probably realise you're wrong you just can't admit it...

 

And we won't change our minds because you've yet to give us reason to.

[Aurbere]

You are somewhat correct about "changing" part; fans of Sidious, Luke and Vader are the hardest to convince and reason with.

 

S_W_LeGenD uses debate for 40 pts of damage. S_W_LeGenD is hit by ironic recoil.

 

It's super effective!

 

S_W_LeGenD fainted!

[Beniboybling]

S_W_LeGenD uses debate for 40 pts of damage. S_W_LeGenD is hit by ironic recoil.

 

It's super effective!

 

S_W_LeGenD fainted!

Aurbere gained 17546 EXP. points!

 

What?

Aurbere is evolving!

 

[Aurbere]

Aurbere gained 17546 EXP. points!

 

What?

Aurbere is evolving!

 

 

Lol! Evolution time!

[S_W_LeGenD]

All the constructive debates are done.

This isn't constructive, because you won't change your mind, or even accept defeat.

I have stated before that I do not debate for victory or defeat; my objective is "correct representation" of characters that I am familiar with in debates (I educate others towards this end). Just like many fellow members, I shared my input in this thread (nothing wrong with this). Now whether my input made difference or not; I am fine with both outcomes, because I cannot forcibly change perceptions of others.

 

You are, In fact, waiting all our time. Beni is spending a long time coming up with arguments against someone who's so afraid to admit defeat, they won't stop or change their mind.

When you take up his time, you take up our time. Instead of doing what he enjoys, like the Kaggath or BZ, he's spending ages trying to show you the truth.

 

Problem is, you probably realise you're wrong you just can't admit it...

 

And we won't change our minds because you've yet to give us reason to.

OP chose to respond to my input which I highly appreciate. Now what entitles you to butt in and post negative remarks about me?

 

Mind your own business since my debate isn't about you but some characters.

Edited August 1, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Selenial]

Lol! Evolution time!

 

*Starts Creepin forward.

 

Throws Pokeball*

 

Woop! My very own Aurbere

[Aurbere]

*Starts Creepin forward.

 

Throws Pokeball*

 

Woop! My very own Aurbere

 

Darnit! I've been captured!

[Selenial]

Darnit! I've been captured!

 

I'll let you out every now and then to go walkies and debate, but this does mean you have to fight for Traya in the Kaggath

[Beniboybling]

I'll let you out every now and then to go walkies and debate, but this does mean you have to fight for Traya in the Kaggath

Oh my, win.

[StarSquirrel]

eh disregard Edited August 2, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Aurbere]

I'll let you out every now and then to go walkies and debate, but this does mean you have to fight for Traya in the Kaggath

 

Clever girl...

[marcelo_sdk]

Thinking about it now, it makes no sense Darth Traya being in her current position. Just to name one, Darth Nyriss was clearly more powerful, she overpowered Surik with ease only with the Force, which shows she was highly above the Jedi. This is more than enough to conclude she was more powerful than Traya.

[LadyKulvax]

Thinking about it now, it makes no sense Darth Traya being in her current position. Just to name one, Darth Nyriss was clearly more powerful, she overpowered Surik with ease only with the Force, which shows she was highly above the Jedi. This is more than enough to conclude she was more powerful than Traya.

 

Talk about totally discounting the scenarios of both fights here.