The REAL Most Powerful Sith

[S_W_LeGenD]

Malgus vs Traya

 

Control

 

Traya: was exceptionally skilled in the use of Force healing which she used to bring both herself and others from the brink of death as well as kill dozens of Sith Assassins simultaneously without raising a finger. She was also skilled in Force concealment and Force cloak, able to hide herself from the Jedi even when in plain sight.

Which Force Healing technique can kill others like that?

 

I recall that Lord Scourge once killed a dozen guards without a gesture, most likely a telekinetic application.

 

Malgus: was incredibly skilled at control and directing his anger, often using it to sustain colossal injury and continue fighting. His Force-powered rage often made him unstoppable. Malgus was also able to conceal his presence. He was also highly skilled in the use of tutanimis.

 

I'd give the edge to Traya in this category, while Malgus has been appraised by the likes of Darth Sidious for his incredible control over his anger. Traya's mastery over healing is unprecedented, and on top of that she has a broader and more refined mastery in this field, that said the gap is by no means large, and is in fact incredibly close.

We don't know for sure if Traya have broader and more refined mastery in this field since not much is known about abilities of Malgus in various spectrums of the Force at the moment. This is why ranking characters is a risky endeavor and lack of information can to misleading conclusions and favoritism.

 

However, here is a feat from Malgus involving utilization of abilities from all 3 spectrums of the Force:

 

 

From Book of Sith - Secrets of the Dark Side

 

"Leading the remaining troops up the mountain trail, a tremor in the Force echoed through me. The defenders of Ord Radama had placed mines on the path. Enraged by such cowardice, I hurled a boulder from the mountainside onto the path in front of us. I then slowly rolled it twenty paces ahead of our own progress, using focused mental energy channeled through the dark side. The stone detonated each of the mines and scattered a nest of ambushers."

 

 

---

 

Sense

 

Traya: had a profound ability in shatterpoint which allowed her to perceived 'fractures' in objects, people and the Force itself. She was also incredibly skilled in predicting the future, able to see events that would occur 4,000 years later. Traya was also a skilled telepath, able to communicate with others across vast distances as well as probe the minds of the unwilling. She also forwent her natural sight in favour of sight through the Force.

 

Malgus: had incredibly strong senses, making his able to see through the Force concealment of Jedi.

 

Furthermore, Malgus once wrestled away the control of a Saber Throw attack from an opponent, a feat which requires combination of both CONTROL and ALTER talents.

 

Obviously Traya has shown a lot more in his category and on a much higher level, giving her the edge. However Malgus' senses are by no means lacking, and it is highly impressive that he could see straight through the Force concealment of another Force user.

The spoiler provided above indicates that Malgus have more to his sense abilities then an ability you mentioned, he detected mines in his path during a battle with his Force abilities as an example. Logically his command of SENSE spectrum goes beyond what is known to us from few examples.

 

In addition, Malgus also experienced visions of future events. Below is an example of a vision about Great Galactic War:

 

 

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Deceived

 

He recalled his first pilgrimage to Korriban, remembered the profound sense of holiness he had felt as he walked in isolation through its rocky deserts, through the dusty canyons lined with the tombs of his ancient Sith forebears. He had felt the Force everywhere, had exulted in it, and in his isolation it had showed him a vision. He had seen systems in flames, the fall of a galaxy-spanning government.

 

 

Alter

 

Traya: her most accomplished ability was Force drain, a highly potent technique that could siphon the Force energy of others - Traya used this against the three remaining Jedi Council members to obliterate them entirely, despite them being prepared for an attack. Traya was also proficient in the basic aspects of the Force, especially Force choke which she used to tear through the Force barriers of Darth Sion without a fight.

 

Malgus: is most accomplished in this arena, he has shown exceptional proficiency with Force lightning - able to kill Jedi on the spot, as well as choke them out instantly. His Force screams were strong enough to shatter rock and most impressively experienced Oneness with the dark side of the Force.

On one occasion, Malgus unleashed a raw wave of energy from his expression of anger which destroyed a structure and vaporized some Republic star-fighters mid-air:

 

 

From Book of Sith - Secrets of the Dark Side

 

"The strength of my scream buckled the bridge's transparisteel viewport and left the crew's ears bleeding. More gratifyingly, my rage overloaded the fuel slugs of an incoming wave of Aureks. The bright bursts of their deaths raised a smile."

 

 

As far as Force lightning is concerned, Malgus once slaughtered 3 Jedi simultaneously with this application:

 

 

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Deceived

 

Malgus, not to be outdone, picked a Jedi Knight at random, a human female ten meters away, held forth his left hand, and discharged veins of blue lightning from his fingertips. The jagged lines of energy cut a swath through the battle, harvesting two Padawans as they went, until they caught up to the Jedi Knight and lifted her off her feet.

 

She screamed as the lightning ripped into her, her flesh made temporarily translucent from the dark power coursing through her. Malgus savored her pain as she died.

 

 

And what about Malgus's powers such as Force Maelstrom?

 

Malgus' raw power is self evident, yet Traya's is as well.

Traya is proficient in the use of Force Drain talents but this doesn't implies that she is more powerful then Malgus.

 

Malgus has dominated Jedi Knights, yet Traya has dominated Jedi Masters.

Malgus have dominated Jedi Masters as well, Jedi Masters with impressive feats to be precise. Do you recall Malgus's encounters with Jedi Masters Kao Cen Darach and Ven Zallow? Both of these Jedi Masters were renowned for their abilities.

 

In contrast, the Jedi Masters that Traya killed are virtually unknown in the context of their abilities. The most notable among them was Kavar, who was noted for his swordsmanship skills but nothing much else.

 

In-fact, Malgus defeated some powerhouses as well; Satele Shan; Aryn Leener and a mysterious Zabrak Jedi who collapsed two buildings around his position (demonstrated Vader level raw power or better).

 

On top of that she choked Sion into submission with little difficulty, a Force User whose raw power would in fact be comparable to Malgus himself, yet perhaps not as refined and honed.

What is the basis of this assumption?

 

So while Malgus's ability in alter is certainly incredible, Traya remains superior in this category. Yet it is a minor edge.

 

Given that Traya surpasses Malgus in all three categories, I'd give the overall edge to her. However that doesn't make Traya considerably superior, as the edges in all three categories are minor.

Available information indicates that Malgus is more powerful then Traya.

Edited February 7, 2014 by S_W_LeGenD

[Aurbere]

Hey, I was just thinking of you Legend! Ladies and Gentlemen, Vader's match is a go. Repeat, Vader's match is green lit!

[Selenial]

I think I'm going to cry.

[Aurbere]

I think I'm going to cry.

 

Hanky? *Holds out handkerchief*

[Selenial]

Which Force Healing technique can kill others like that?

 

I recall that Lord Scourge once killed a dozen guards without a gesture, most likely a telekinetic application.

Dark Transfer.

 

We don't know for sure if Traya have broader and more refined mastery in this field since not much is known about abilities of Malgus in various spectrums of the Force at the moment. This is why ranking characters is a risky endeavor and lack of information can to misleading conclusions and favoritism.

There's about as much for Malgus as there is for Traya.

 

The spoiler provided above indicates that Malgus have more to his sense abilities then an ability you mentioned, he detected mines in his path during a battle with his Force abilities as an example. Logically his command of SENSE spectrum goes beyond what is known to us from few examples.

Traya's is still more.

I don't think you realise the magnitude of her power, she was CUT OFF from the force, and still managed to use what scraps she had left to look 4000 years into the future.

 

 

The vision in the aforementioned spoiler is about events of the Great Galactic War.

 

Vague visions, yes. Traya was precise and clear in what she saw, despite her lack of force energy.

 

 

On one occasion, Malgus unleashed a raw wave of energy from his expression of anger which destroyed a structure and vaporized some Republic star-fighters mid-air:

 

Traya slaughtered 3 masters

 

Malgus have dominated Jedi Masters as well, Jedi Masters with impressive feats to be precise. Do you recall Malgus's encounters with Jedi Masters Kao Cen Darach and Ven Zallow? Both of these Jedi Masters were renowned for their abilities.

He Out-dueled them, she killed 3 Council members (More powerful than Zallow and Darach, they were council members during a prime period of the Jedi Order)

 

What is the basis of this assumption?

He kept himself alive with Raw power in the force?

Edited February 7, 2014 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

I think I'm going to cry.

There there now, everything will be all right.

 

As for me, well, I have a reputation to uphold. *strides onto the battlefield.*

Edited February 7, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

There there now, everything will be all right.

 

As for me, well, I have a reputation to uphold. *strides onto the battlefield.*

 

I promised myself I would provide backup during Legend's next appearance.

 

So if you want the guy with the quad-barrel chaingun, just ask.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Hey, I was just thinking of you Legend! Ladies and Gentlemen, Vader's match is a go. Repeat, Vader's match is green lit!

 

K, ready.

[Aurbere]

K, ready.

 

First is Dooku it seems, but then we get to Vader.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Aurbere

[Selenial]

First is Dooku it seems, but then we get to Vader.

 

I'd have voted Vader TBH, but what ever

[Aurbere]

I'd have voted Vader TBH, but what ever

 

Well we haven't gotten all of the votes, Vader could still be next. I know I voted for Vader

[S_W_LeGenD]

Dark Transfer.

Isn't this an application introduced in Legacy era works?

 

Which source confirms that Traya have knowledge of this application?

 

There's about as much for Malgus as there is for Traya.

This makes no sense. Traya and Malgus have been explored in different ways by different authors.

 

When authors are writing books, they aren't making a list of what talents a character have in each spectrum of the Force. The authors only reveal information that is relevant to their story.

 

Traya's is still more.

I don't think you realise the magnitude of her power, she was CUT OFF from the force, and still managed to use what scraps she had left to look 4000 years into the future.

I am not oblivious to Traya's abilities. Their is no ground for you to claim that Traya is still more, fact is that we have more information about her talents in the spectrums of CONTROL and SENSE but we do not have information about the full extent of abilities of both Traya and Malgus in these spectrums.

 

Vague visions, yes. Traya was precise and clear in what she saw, despite her lack of force energy.

Vague visions? What do you mean?

 

Also, when Traya and Meetra met, they regained connectivity with the Force as per KoTOCG:

 

Kriea's union with the Jedi Exile creates a vergence in the Force that reconnects them to the energy field surrounding all living things.

 

Keep in mind that Jedi are known to specialize in foresight abilities because they follow the will of the Force. However, Jedi themselves fully understand that visions may or may not come true because the future is always in motion. Sometimes, visions turn out to be true, sometimes, they don't.

 

Traya slaughtered 3 masters

Comparing apples and oranges?

 

He Out-dueled them, she killed 3 Council members (More powerful than Zallow and Darach, they were council members during a prime period of the Jedi Order)

More powerful then Zallow and Darach because they were council members, really?

 

Please keep in mind that Jedi Council members are not supposed to be powerhouses, they are just role model Jedi. Even the likes of Coleman Trebor became Council members.

 

He kept himself alive with Raw power in the force?

Or virtual immortality? talents of CONTROL spectrum?

Edited February 8, 2014 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

Malgus have subdued superior opposition, have superior showings with the Force. In short, Malgus is more powerful.

That was originally my assumption, but after careful consideration, I decided the opposite was the case.

 

To address your points.

 

Control

 

1. I believe it has been referred to as "dark healing" in some instances. Regardless I expect that she influenced their bodily functions to essentially stop their hearts - similar to the Morichro technique. I highly doubt it was the same technique used by Lord Scourge, noting that Sith Assassins are Force Sensitive i.e. having Force Barriers.

 

2. Various spectrums is not what we are considering here, we are considering the sphere of Control. All Malgus has really displayed in this category (noting Malgus is now is dead - do not expect any further expansion on his abilities) is rage and his abilities in this field are not unprecedented. What we can certainly say however is that Traya has recovered others from worse injury than Malgus has recovered from himself, so I'd deem Traya superior.

 

Now we have a brief display of Force concealment, but Traya being able to conceal herself from the entire Jedi Order and be in the presence of Jedi Council members without being noticed among other things seems superior.

 

All in all, as an absolute master of various aspects of Control, I think Traya's edge in this category is quite solid.

 

Sense

 

1. Malgus' ability there to detect mines is no more impressive, in fact less impressive, than his ability to detect a concealed Jedi. So Traya is still superior in this category, her abilities with foresight are profound to say the least, she has predicted events thousands of years into the future, and her abilities with telepathy are equally astounding.

 

She predicted the death of Boba Fett, she predicted the rise of Darth Sidious, she effortlessly predicted the future of all the Exile's companions and she communicated with and manipulated the mind of a Atris light years away of whom she did not even have a Force bond with. Malgus really lacks anything that stacks up with this.

 

Now concerning his vision on Korriban, it was in the presence of a strong dark side nexus. Which means we can make a direct comparison with Traya's foreseeing on Malachor. See above. Traya is clearly superior here. That is without even considering shatterpoint, which is on par with Mace Windu himself, perhaps even better.

 

Again, Traya is quite solidly superior here, this was one of her greatest abilities and it amazed most.

 

Alter

 

1. I only touched upon what I feel were Malgus' most impressive abilities, and particularly those I felt could be directly compared with Traya's own i.e. breaking the Force Barriers of Jedi. Incomparable feats really serve no purpose.

 

2. I feel it is, Drew's Darth Bane novel demonstrates how Force Drain demands large amounts of raw energy:

 

Bane extinguished his weapon and stood perfectly still, allowing the swarming horde to close in on him as he gathered his strength. He called upon the power of the temple itself, feeding on it to bolster his own abilities as he created a deadly field around his body.

 

...

 

Cloaked in the shadowy gloom, Bane simply held his ground against the enemy assault. The front ranks of onrushing cultists shrieked in agony as they entered the field, their life essence violently sucked out of their bodies, aging them a thousands years in only a few seconds.

 

...

 

The effort of creating an aura of pure dark side energy would have quickly exhausted even Bane. However, as his enemies fell he was able to draw their essence into himself...

Darth Traya drained dry all three remaining Jedi Council Members, which in itself would have required a significant amount of raw dark side energy. I'd speculate the same amount it would have taken to simply choke them out, noting that in the original version Traya Force Crushed them one by one before draining them. Indicating she could do this.

 

3. When I use the term "dominate" I refer to something specific, namely breaking through the Force Barriers of an opponent or otherwise exerting so much energy upon them in a single moment that they simply die instantly. Malgus simply defeated Kao Cen Darach and Ven Zallow, he did not dominate them in the manner described. Noting that none of Malgus' victories even come close to what Vader has demonstrated, I suggest more research. Start here and here.

 

4. We do however have no reason to underestimate, to do so would be chopped logic. Instead let's consider the facts, all three of these Jedi are Masters and what's more members of the Jedi High Council. They are essentially some of the most powerful members of the Jedi Order - which spawned such prodigies as Revan, Malak, Surik and Kreia herself - and all highly accomplished warriors, not reclusive scholars.

 

All this seems to indicate they they were highly skilled in the Force, and deserved of the Master title.

 

Most certainly superior to the unnamed Jedi Knights we see Malgus destroy in the Sacking of Coruscant.

 

5. Darth Sion, much like Malgus, sustained injury and survived through the power of his rage. Yet Sion used this power to become immortal, he sustained injury upon injury over decades, ever bone in his body was broken. To keep such a fragile form together would have required somebody extremely powerful in the Force.

 

Is it possible that by diverting much of his Force Power to keeping himself alive, his other abilities i.e. defenses, would have been weakened? Possibly. Obsidian may not have taken this into account. But Sion remains a powerful and deadly warrior more than match for the likes of Darach, Leneer and Zallow who Malgus failed to dominate.

 

Altogether, I stand by my decision - as do many others as I am sure you have become aware.

[Beniboybling]

Also, when Traya and Meetra met, they regained connectivity with the Force as per KoTOCG:

 

Kriea's union with the Jedi Exile creates a vergence in the Force that reconnects them to the energy field surrounding all living things.

 

Keep in mind that Jedi are known to specialize in foresight abilities because they follow the will of the Force. Jedi themselves fully understand that visions may or may not come true because the future is always in motion. Sometimes, visions turn out to be true, sometimes, they don't.

She is referring to when Traya was cut off from the Force at the end of their final duel.

 

All of Traya's visions came true, every single one of them. And she was damn specific. Noting that considerable ability in foresight indicates considerably attunement to the Force from which derives the ability to wield it.

[S_W_LeGenD]

She is referring to when Traya was cut off from the Force at the end of their final duel.

If she experienced a vision at that point then she was not cut off from the Force.

 

All of Traya's visions came true, every single one of them. And she was damn specific. Noting that considerable ability in foresight indicates considerably attunement to the Force from which derives the ability to wield it.

Or information about only those visions is available which came true?

 

This point "always in motion is the future" is canon ground reality. This is true for all characters in the mythos.

 

Jedi are supposed to be to be more specialized in the matter of foresight because they follow the will of the Force unlike Sith who go against the will of the Force. In short, Jedi have advantage in this respect over Sith.

Edited February 8, 2014 by S_W_LeGenD

[Aurbere]

Shouldn't this discussion be sent to the new relevant thread?

[Beniboybling]

Shouldn't this discussion be sent to the new relevant thread?

Yes, your right. I'll post my reply to the above there.

[Aurbere]

Yes, your right. I'll post my reply to the above there.

 

Good. We will then crush the rebellion with one swift stroke.

[Beniboybling]

Good. We will then crush the rebellion with one swift stroke.

[Selenial]

If she experienced a vision at that point then she was not cut off from the Force.

 

 

Or information about only those visions is available which came true?

 

This point "always in motion is the future" is canon ground reality. This is true for all characters in the mythos.

 

Jedi are supposed to be considerably attuned to the Force because they follow the will of the Force. They are supposed to be more specialized in this matter then Sith who go against the will of the Force. In short, Jedi have advantage in this respect over Sith.

No, Surik severely weakened her connection to the force, almost completely severed it, but Traya managed to use what little she had left (Everyone cut off from the force retains slight connection) to force Malachor to do her bidding, and give her power.

Which is in itself impressive, because not everyone can control Malachor's power, let alone whilst weakened.

 

Traya wasn't a Jedi.

 

And the Limited Edition KCG describes Mira's, Handmaidens and Visas' future as Canon, never checked the rest.

[Trooperclay]

I don't know much about Jacen/Caedus, but HOW could he be more powerful than Vitiate? This guy practically swallowed up an entire planet!

[Aurbere]

I don't know much about Jacen/Caedus, but HOW could he be more powerful than Vitiate? This guy practically swallowed up an entire planet!

 

I assure you that this was thoroughly debated.

[Beniboybling]

I don't know much about Jacen/Caedus, but HOW could he be more powerful than Vitiate? This guy practically swallowed up an entire planet!

With the assistance of 8,000 Sith Lords no less. Here is my theory on the matter:

 

The Ritual of Nathema: many incorrectly assume that this particular ritual gave the Sith Emperor the combined strength of 8,000 Sith Lords that he could dispense at will. This is not the case. Given that if that was the case the Sith Emperor would have been able to utterly obliterate Revan with his sight alone. In actual fact the majority of these energies were most likely expended in the performance of the ritual itself. Clearly the Sith Emperor did not have the power to perform it alone, and Force drain was noted in Darth Bane to demand copious amounts of Force energy. And while the act replenished and added to the Force reserves of the wielder, it failed to make up for the power expended.

 

Given that the ritual performed by the Emperor was effectively Force drain on a planetary scale the same mechanics apply. However in this case the Sith Emperor was capable of increasing his power by covering the ‘costs’ if you will by expending the power of the enslaved Sith Lords rather than his own, and as such his powers increased, however the strength of those Sith Lords was expended nonetheless. This likelihood is further reinforced by the fact that in order to perform the ritual again the Emperor required mass genocide. Effectively he needed another ‘sacrifice’ to produce the same if not more Force energy than before that he could use to enact the ritual.

 

--Taken from The REAL Most Powerful Sith Lord.

 

Anyway, Aurbere's correct. I originally though the Sith Emperor was superior but we had a lengthy discussion about it and eventually I did a formal comparison, reaching the conclusion that Caedus is superior. You can read it here. Also if you have an reservations, S_W_Legend had a good go at it, and I feel it stood up to scrutiny.

 

Feel free to wade through that discussion starting on here. Scroll down the reply to get to the relevant part.