The REAL Most Powerful Sith

[Beniboybling]

In response to Legend's arguments, I'm going to try and keep this succinct with the aforementioned format:

 

Control: "Control is internal. It is the Jedi's ability to recognize the Force in himself and to use it to his benefit."

Maybe your interpretation of this aspect is not perfect.

 

Allow me to elaborate, the aspect of Control should not be taken literally, it does not simply mean a vague ability to Control the Force, that is just Force ability in general. To quote Wookieepedia:

 

Three main abilities were centered around Control: tutaminis, curato salva, and altus sopor. These three umbrella abilities incorporated many of the abilities Jedi used throughout their service to the Republic.

 

Essentially control encompasses the ability to manipulate ones body, dissapiate energy into ones body, heal oneself and it also refers to one's ability to bolster their own body i.e. Force speed, Force valor etc.

 

Here is a more comprehensive list of the abilities it encompasses: Alchaka, Art of Movement, Breath control, Center of Being, Detoxify Poison, Flashburn, Force Body, Force Enlightenment, Force ghost, Force healing, Force speed, Force stealth (Also known as Force Concealment), Hibernation trance, Morichro, Tapas, Cloak of Shadow.

 

Control is the ability to Control oneself, and therefore relates to internal, bodily powers. None of which that you put forward falls under these categories I'm afraid, so no, the Sith Emperor does not massively outgun Caedus.

 

In light of that, I reaffirm that Caedus is considerably superior to the Sith Emperor in terms of Control - specifically through his mastery over the ability to manipulate his body, and hide himself through the Force. Both demonstrations of these abilities are unprecedented.

 

Sense: "Sense involves the next step, in which the Jedi recognizes the force in the universe outside oneself."

 

1. We can't fault Caedus for not being an infallible demi-god - nobody is perfect. Despite this however his mastery over foresight remains unprecedented. No Force user, not Revan, not Traya and not Duron have been able to predict the future and look into the past with such accuracy. Sure they have had spontaneous and semi-spontaneous visions but this falls considerable short of being able to predict the future and will and choose what part of the future you see. Noting that Traya was only able to do this when empowered by the Trayus Core.

 

2. The Emperor's abilities have been explored enough to know that they are lacking. We cannot simply make the assumption that the duration of his Empire points to exceptional ability in foresight. Remembering that the Emperor as spies everywhere i.e. the Imperial Guard, the Children, the Hands, the Wrath etc. Indeed his foresight was not strong enough to see Revan's attack coming, or even his presence on the planet, he didn't see the betrayal and deceit of the 2nd Dark Council until Scourge informed him and he only foresaw his death at the hands of the Hero of Tython through the Voss. We certainly do not have the grounds to argue he is superior to Caedus.

 

In light of that, I also reaffirm that Caedus remains considerably superior to the Sith Emperor in terms of Sense. The Emperor may have possessed a level of ability, but the majority of sources point to his ability being lacking. Whereas Caedus was able to predict the future with unprecedented accuracy, something the Sith Emperor likely sought after.

 

Alter: "Alter is the third and most difficult area to master, for it involves the student's ability to modify the Force and redistribute its energies."

 

1. Telekinesis: when the Sith Emperor collapsed the Dark Temple it was not an act of telekinesis, but a willed explosion of the Sith Emperor's dark side power. However as as Sith Spirit, we cannot include it in his list of abilities. As spirits transcend the plane which we make comparison on, a plane in which one is effectively liberated from their mortal restraints. For example note how Exar Kun as a spirit was able to put Luke into a coma with ease, yet he was never able to do this in life. To assume the Emperor could do what he did in spiritual form when in his body is therefore an unsupported assumption. That said, Darth Vader managed to collapse an entire cathedral, and we know for a fact that Caedus is more powerful than Vader.

 

2. Lightning: given the fact that Caedus was able to harm Force-resistant individuals with his lightning before becoming a Sith Lord, and was able to reduce biologicals to morphed blobs, I'm sure he'd have little trouble destroying a synthetic being - which are highly vulnerable to electrical attacks.

 

Also there is an obvious disparity between Revan's encounter with the Sith Emperor, and the Jedi Strike Teams encounter. If the Sith Emperor was truly capable of unleashing such power at a moments notice, why didn't he do so against Revan? Why did he not conjure a Force storm to hold Revan back, then incapacitated him with a single burst of energy? The Jedi Strike Team failed to even reflect his lightning, let alone catch it. Clearly it was a preprepared build up of power, you cannot deny that the Sith Emperor dispatched the Jedi Strike Team with much greater ease than he did Revan and co. The very fact that they had a chance in defeating him solidifies that.

 

3. Mind Control: I'll admit, I was being a little harsh on Kaan. But my point is is that he is far from a top-tier Sith Lord of the likes of Caedus, the Sith Emperor, Sidious etc. who most likely eclipse his power quite totally. The disparity between Kaan's and the Sith Emperor's power is likely considerable, so you can imagine what the Sith Emperor would have been capable of in terms of mental manipulation. Simply put, it is quite clear that you don't have to be vastly powerful to dominate the minds of the willing as Kaan was able to do it with ease.

 

4. Sever Force: we cannot compare long-term force drain with immediate sever force - as the former does not require a breach of barriers while the latter does. As of yet the Sith Emperor has prove himself incapable of severing the Force or Force-sensitives of Ben Skywalker's level and caliber. His abilities in Force drain make up for the shortfall.

 

5. Force illusions: as I said before, the ability to conjure an tangible illusion is an appliaction of power which even the most basic adepts were capable of, in particular Girov Dza'tey - a Bothan operative whose rudimentary Force abilities went largely unnoticed and dormant. And as seen here, he was able use Sith magic to conjure illusions capable of attacking others with lethal potency.

 

As for your other points: we lack the information at hand to judge the Sith Emperor's purge of the Dark Council - all we know if that they were entirely unprepared, making them easier to kill. The Sith Emperor is not able to manipulate the environment of an entire world, the lightning storms above Dromund Kaas are an inadvertent result of the already present dark nexus surrounding the planet, which the Emperor only added to. I can't think of any defensive capabilites the Emperor has shown that are worthy of note, I don't recall the Emperor subduing any Sith Spirits and the ability to rule an Empire does not directly indicate anything concerning Force ability.

 

So in light of the above I again reaffirm that Caedus and the Sith Emperor are if anything equals in terms of Alter. With Caedus being minorily superior if any edge were to be given due to his superior ability in telekinesis and Force illusions, while the Sith Emperor is only superior in terms of mind control.

Tenebrae have been described as "almost godlike avatar of the dark side."

 

Big deal, if Caedus is superior to Vader? This much is expected of him. A lone Dark Council member can be match for Vader by the way.

What I'm saying here is that as Caedus has been touted as one of the most powerful Sith Lords in galactic history, and he is therefore in a canonical position to challenge the Sith Emperor who has received similar titles.

 

Indeed the same logic you used to justify the Sith Emperor challenging Sidious' position. These are the "ground realities" of current Star Wars mythos, roll with the latest developments.

[Beniboybling]

Anyway I've added Bane as number #10 - so if anyone feels the current positions should be changed now is the time.

[Selenial]

Wow... Trayas foresight...

Stronger than I had thought...

 

"And others have mastered the more subtle work, of politics, persuasion. Do not doubt that a galaxy may be conquered with words, a Republic overthrown, an Empire made."

 

Sound familiar? 0.o

Never noticed that one until now, far more obvious than the Fett one...

[Beniboybling]

Wow... Trayas foresight...

Stronger than I had thought...

 

"And others have mastered the more subtle work, of politics, persuasion. Do not doubt that a galaxy may be conquered with words, a Republic overthrown, an Empire made."

 

Sound familiar? 0.o

Never noticed that one until now, far more obvious than the Fett one...

Traya already had a natural gift with foresight, coupled with the power of the Trayus Core and I expect she saw a great deal. That one had slipped my mind though, I remember it now.

[Selenial]

Traya already had a natural gift with foresight, coupled with the power of the Trayus Core and I expect she saw a great deal. That one had slipped my mind though, I remember it now.

 

Thing is, that wasnt at the Trayus core...

That was the surprising part...

[Beniboybling]

Thing is, that wasnt at the Trayus core...

That was the surprising part...

But she didn't have the vision there and then, she likely had it prior and was just recounting what she saw.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Your attempts to degrade their abilities doesn't change the fact that it doesn't take an exceptionally powerful Force user to wield high levels of sorcery. Meaning that Sith Sorcery owes more of its potency to understanding than power, therefore naturally having millenia to study the Sith Emperor is going to become a highly skilled sorcerer.

I am not degrading them; I pointed out their major accomplishments and talents which are typically limited to select few applications of Sith Sorcery and they are not necessarily masters of those applications. Proficiency in the application of Illusions can be determined on the basis of their nature; some illusions are pure mental tricks (regardless of scale) while some are dangerous manifestations of dark side energies that can actually harm physical beings. Tenebrae falls in the advanced category of wielders of this talent. However, illusions are just part of the equation; Sith Sorcery on the whole is an immensely vast subject.

 

Tenebrae have demonstrated great proficiency in the applications of Illusions, Essence Transfer, Weather Manipulation, Power Absorption and possibly lot more since he explored uncharted depths of the dark side like no one else (his story leaves room for lot of creative liberties). He could perform these actions without the need of external aids which is impressive.

 

Tenebrae was incredibly powerful and this influenced his effectiveness in the field of Sith Sorcery; he could perform feats that others couldn't hope to in this field. None of the individuals you mentioned are capable of surviving Nathema like disaster and also control/absorb power of such nature.

 

Of course, his abilities aren't entirely the result of study, his power definitely comes into the equation. But that only means that his power should be self evident outside the sphere of sorcery.

It is!

 

He was immensely effective in the use of any Sith application he learned.

 

And it is your assumption that the Sith Emperor was able to pull of the Nathema ritual single-handedly. It is nowhere directly stated. And it is likely not true for the following reasons:

 

 

1. 
    
    
   
2. It took the combined strength of Vitiate and 8,000 Sith Lords to complete, meaning that to replicate it again the Sith Emperor would have to have that level of power. But clearly he does not else he would have been able to one-shot the Hero of Tython and Revan with ridiculous ease. Not even Luke Skywalker himself could defend against their combined power - he would be destroyed almost instantly.
    
   Even if we take into account the fact the Emperor was weakened, he'd still have any easy time. The HoT would be defeated just as easily by 4,000 Sith, or 2,000. Heck there'd be a fight it it was just Vitiate himself.
    
    
   
3. When the Emperor needed to complete the ritual again, he didn't start draining planets by himself. He dispatched his minions to do it for him, implying he was not powerful enough to do it himself.
   

This;

 

Planetary-scale destructive abilities?

 

Tenebrae, after his first transformation, possibly acquired the capability to devastate an entire planet with his Force abilities, should he desire.

 

 

“Nathema was just the beginning,” Scourge agreed. “He will destroy world after world, his power and madness growing in concert until he alone is left, Emperor over an empty and lifeless galaxy.”

 

Meetra stared at the two in horror.

 

“You’ve been to Nathema,” Scourge said. “You felt the Void. You know what the Emperor is capable of.”

 

“She understands,” Revan said, reading her expression more accurately than Scourge. “That’s not it.”

 

“He’s quarantined Dromund Kaas,” Meetra said, trying to lead them to the same conclusion. “What if he’s preparing to do the same thing here that he did on Nathema?”

 

Scourge hadn’t considered that possibility, and it chilled him to his core.

 

“Is that possible?” he asked. “Nyriss told me the ritual on Nathema took days, if not weeks. And the Emperor had to trick hundreds of other powerful Sith into working with him so he could draw on their power.”

 

“He’s stronger now,” Revan said. “But even if it’s possible, I don’t think he’ll go that far. At least not yet. He is too patient, too careful. Dromund Kaas is the heart of his Empire and the seat of his power. He has too many valuable resources here to throw it all away. (SWTOR: Revan)

 

 

Revan is absolutely correct:

 

 

Lord Vitiate takes command of the Sith Empire, now in shambles following the Great Hyperspace War. He executes the Sith Council and consumes the life force of thousands of Sith Lords in a terrifying ritual that extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force. (SWTORE, Page 16)

 

 

Addressing one of your points from the above separately:-

 

But clearly he does not else he would have been able to one-shot the Hero of Tython and Revan with ridiculous ease.

Tenebrae could actually one-shot them both.

 

Tenebrae easily overwhelmed HoT in a (fair) duel, but he decided not to kill him; rather use him for his personal agenda:

 

Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga easily overwhelmed:

 

"You stand there because I allow it. Because I do not fear." (Tenebrae to Jedi Strike Team)

 

 

With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side. The Jedi do not realize that they have underestimated the true extent of the Emperor's power. It is an error that will cost them dearly. (SWTORE, Page 89)

 

 

 

The plan to invade the Emperor's fortress succeeds beyond Master Braga's greatest ambitions. However, the Jedi find more than they bargained for when they finally confront the Sith leader in his lair. The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side. Armed with incalculable powers of corruption, the Emperor easily defeats the Knight, Master Braga, and their fellow Jedi, twisting them all to the dark side. (SWTORE, Page 92)

 

 

As far as Revan is concerned; Tenebrae could have utterly destroyed him with a single application, let alone combination of his powers.

 

 

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been. Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him. Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan. The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp. Almost too weak to move, Revan managed to raise his head just in time to see the Emperor turn on the brave little astromech. A tremor rippled through the air as the Emperor unleashed the full power of the Force against the defenseless droid. T3 never stood a chance. The little droid exploded into a million pieces, internal circuits and external casing obliterated in a single instant. (SWTOR: Revan)

 

 

Not even Luke Skywalker himself could defend against their combined power - he would be destroyed almost instantly

Of-course, challenging so many Sith Lords simultaneously in conventional manner would be tantamount to suicide. Only method is to unleash powers capable of mass destruction from a safe distance.

 

In conventional context, I am not sure about the limitations of Tenebrae; he did purge an entire Dark Council with a single blow which is the greatest display of power in combat situations in the mythos till date:

 

 

During a violent tempest, Darth Lokess called a secret meeting of her eleven fellow Dark Council members. Under the cover of night, the Dark Council met and heard Darth Lokess describe a brilliant and daring plan to overthrow the Sith Emperor, end his relentless exile, and lead the Empire back to war against the Republic. An army of Sith under the command of Darth Lokess were stationed outside the meeting, ready to slay any Dark Council member who refused. But they all agreed to depose the Emperor.

 

It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of his council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. The last member Darth Lokess, disappeared forever, though for some centuries some claimed her screams could be heard from the bowels of the Citadel.

 

A new council was immediately appointed to replace the traitors. The Emperor had made his point: his will was absolute, and none would oppose him. And though this was not the last time the council would defy the Emperor, his lesson would humble the Empire and its Sith leaders for centuries to come. (SWTORE, Page 156)

 

 

Dark Council members are most likely the most powerful individuals in the Sith Empire barring Tenebrae himself:

 

 

It is in the Dark Council chambers on Korriban that the Sith Inquisitor finally overcomes Thanaton and utterly destroys the once supreme Sith while the Dark Council bears witness. At their behest, the inquisitor takes Thanaton's seat, becomes a Darth, and joins the most powerful Sith in the Empire to rule as a member of the Dark Council. (SWTORE, Page 185)

 

 

Except Vader is so much more than Dark Council material, he'd be the Emperor's Wrath and then some. Being one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever puts you well above the Dark Council.

 

And again, you have no grounds to say they are equal. Saying they could be better just pushes you deeper into the quagmire of arbitrary nonsense - you lack any solid information on their Force abilities. Let alone superior feats.

Just because Vader is heavily explored and respected individual, doesn't necessarily makes him superior to Dark Council members of an ancient Sith Empire.

 

Dark Council members are "dark side prodigies" typically; only the most powerful Sith in the galaxy can last long in a Council which is plagued by internal and external threats/challenges.

 

To give you an idea, Nyriss single-handedly subdued Scourge and Meetra simultaneously (two heavy-weights of the mythos). She proved to be more then a match for Bane at minimum in this single duel. Imagine..

 

To give you further idea, Darth Baras stalemated Satele Shan in single combat.

 

Their are numerous hints of how potent and powerful Dark Council members can be.

 

---

 

NOTE: I will address some points in your another post after a while. Wait for my whole response to complete before you choose to respond.

Edited July 30, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Aurbere]

I know you want to move on from this Beni, but you know me. I just can't resist.

 

Here we go.

 

Vader benefits from being a heavily explored character and therefore the list of his feats are long. In contrast, majority of TOR era characters suffer from lack of information and therefore are often not decent candidates for comparative purposes.

 

Don't make excuses. You brought them up. Don't make an argument that you can't defend.

 

You first need to understand the ground realities of Dark Council:-

 

 

To serve on the Dark Council is to achieve the greatest position of honor, power, and influence in the Empire. Many Sith spend their lives plotting their ascension to the council, but with millions vying for only 12 seats, the competition is cutthroat. The powerful few who join the Council often serve for only a few months, their lives cut short by internal power struggles or external enemies who target them for assassination. (SWTORE, Page 172)

 

 

Now you realize how difficult it is to secure a seat in the Dark Council, let alone survive in it for long time?

 

Good for them? What happens if the 'millions' vying for a seat are a bunch of chumps? Because there's a lot of cannon fodder Sith in the TOR era.

 

Vader never faced such level of competition in the Sith Empire he served; their was no Dark Council in the Empire of Sidious by the way. In contrast, millions of Force-users existed in the Empire of Sith Emperor (Tenebrae) at a time. In a pool of competition of such a size, only dark side prodigies could make it to the Dark Council.

 

Is Vader not a Dark Side prodigy?

 

No he's not. He's a direct creation of the Force.

 

Now as an example, consider Darth Marr:-

 

Marr is canonically "a master of the dark side"

 

"a master of the dark side?" You know how many 'masters of the dark side' there are? Not exactly points for him.

 

Considering that Vader is also a master of the dark side.

 

and lasted over 40 years in the Dark Council, which is testament to his incredible power and talents on the whole.

 

Whatever. It doesn't really prove anything.

 

Capabilities wise, Darth Marr was capable of routing whole armies single-handedly

 

Vader's done similar things. But you already knew that.

 

So tell me, how large are these so-called armies? Even a small force can be considered an army.

 

he was immensely feared within the Republic ranks.

 

Vader was the most feared man in the entire galaxy. Even Sidious feared Vader's abilities.

 

It is obvious to me that you have no real basis here. You have yet to provide any of Marr's abilities. But even if you did, Vader would completely outclass Marr.

[sell-dog]

Of course, but what Legend seems to be saying here is that any one dark council member matches Vader's Force ability and therefore Caedus surpassing Vader is scoffable. You can see how one would take that to be nonsensical.

 

And I agree, I think I'm going place Bane as #10. Sell-dog suggested Freedon Nadd but after reviewing his page most of it is in relation to his Sith spirit. And to be honest by placing Nadd on this list I feel I'd be saying that Nadd beats all other ancient Sith, which we can't be sure is the case.

 

Yours and others opinion on the Sith Emperor vs Caedus would also be welcome.

 

Thanks for remembering my suggestion. After looking at Nadd some more I agree in that I don't think there is enough concrete stuff on his mortal self to make the case to move into the top 10 (ie he killed a lot of Jedi with his saber and blaster but not much on the quality of those guys). He does have some impressive stuff and def left quite the legacy.

 

Just wondering, you consider Nadd to be an ancient Sith? I guess I've always thought of ancient Sith to be someone during the Exiles to Golden Age of Sith span (Adas & others b4 the Exiles being in another category) and Nadd is just an anomaly like Kun that comes between Hyperspace War and Galactic War.

Edited July 30, 2013 by sell-dog

[Beniboybling]

NOTE: I will address some points in your another post after a while. Wait for my whole response to complete before you choose to respond.

Nah, I think I'm reply right now.

Proficiency in the application of Illusions can be determined on the basis of their nature; some illusions are pure mental tricks (regardless of scale) while some are dangerous manifestations of dark side energies that can actually harm physical beings. Tenebrae falls in the advanced category of wielders of this talent. However, illusions are just part of the equation; Sith Sorcery on the whole is an immensely vast subject.

As does this random Bothan. And he does it with ease. After a few days, if that, of discovering his ability this Sith Magic he was able to conjure illusions of lethal potency. If he could do that, without any formal training, what could he accomplish with a little study? An entire body perhaps, multiple bodies perhaps? Perhaps

The disparity between the two abilities is minor. After a millenia of study into the dark side, anybody would be able to manipulate Sith magic to an advanced level. Knowledge is central to wielding Sith Sorcery, power, while important, is secondary.

 

As for those quotes you provided, I was actually responding to that. None of those quotes directly state that the Sith Emperor was without a doubt capable of reenacting the Nathema ritual without aid. Do they? It is therefore your assumption that he was capable of this.

 

And no, if the Emperor possessed the strength of 8,000 Sith Lords he would have been able to one-shot them with a bat of his eyelid. Revan would have been incapable of deflecting his lightning, let alone catching it, at all. And against the Hero of Tython in their final duel, the Emperor was unable to subdue the HoT with his lightning. You talk about exceptional circumstances but he'd have to be stripped of all his power to be beaten.

[Beniboybling]

Thanks for remembering my suggestion. After looking at Nadd some more I agree in that I don't think there is enough concrete stuff on his mortal self to make the case to move into the top 10 (ie he killed a lot of Jedi with his saber and blaster but not much on the quality of those guys). He does have some impressive stuff and def left quite the legacy.

 

Just wondering, you consider Nadd to be an ancient Sith? I guess I've always thought of ancient Sith to be someone during the Exiles to Golden Age of Sith span (Adas & others b4 the Exiles being in another category) and Nadd is just an anomaly like Kun that comes between Hyperspace War and Galactic War.

Well your right, he's not exactly ancient. But yeah I don't think we possess any concrete information, and none of it pops out as superior to Bane either way. Excluding what he did as a spirit. We cannot say for sure.

 

But anyway the list is filled, if you feel any changes should be made know is the time for that discussion.

[Beniboybling]

Just because Vader is heavily explored and respected individual, doesn't necessarily makes him superior to Dark Council members of an ancient Sith Empire.

 

Dark Council members are "dark side prodigies" typically; only the most powerful Sith in the galaxy can last long in a Council which is plagued by internal and external threats/challenges.

 

To give you an idea, Nyriss single-handedly subdued Scourge and Meetra simultaneously (two heavy-weights of the mythos). She proved to be more then a match for Bane at minimum in this single duel. Imagine..

 

To give you further idea, Darth Baras stalemated Satele Shan in single combat.

 

Their are numerous hints of how potent and powerful Dark Council members can be.

 

---

 

NOTE: I will address some points in your another post after a while. Wait for my whole response to complete before you choose to respond.

It also doesn't necessarily make him of the same level or inferior. Like Aurbere said, Darth Vader was more than a dark side prodigy, he was a being born of the Force. We are dealing with an incredibly powerful Sith Lord who has survived all kinds of things, I can't see any DC members being able to put him down.

 

Oh yes, Darth Nyriss single-handedly... oh wait, this is the Darth Nyriss who got totally ROLFstomped by Revan right? News for you, Vader is considerably more powerful than Revan (dispute this at your own peril) he would crush Nyriss under the foot of his boot. Nyriss being one of the most powerful DC members at the time.

 

So you would say Baras and Satele Shan are of equal levels? This being the same Satele Shan who was twice defeated by Darth Malgus, an effective carbon copy of Darth Vader - except Vader is that much more powerful. So I guess that's another DC member Vader would defeat.

 

Any other challengers?

[marcelo_sdk]

It also doesn't necessarily make him of the same level or inferior. Like Aurbere said, Darth Vader was more than a dark side prodigy, he was a being born of the Force. We are dealing with an incredibly powerful Sith Lord who has survived all kinds of things, I can't see any DC members being able to put him down.

 

Oh yes, Darth Nyriss single-handedly... oh wait, this is the Darth Nyriss who got totally ROLFstomped by Revan right? News for you, Vader is considerably more powerful than Revan (dispute this at your own peril) he would crush Nyriss under the foot of his boot. Nyriss being one of the most powerful DC members at the time.

 

So you would say Baras and Satele Shan are of equal levels? This being the same Satele Shan who was twice defeated by Darth Malgus, an effective carbon copy of Darth Vader - except Vader is that much more powerful. So I guess that's another DC member Vader would defeat.

 

Any other challengers?

 

Just disagree that Malgus was a copy of Vader. They are extremely different in all aspects. And yes, Vader is more powerful with the Force.

[Beniboybling]

Just disagree that Malgus was a copy of Vader. They are extremely different in all aspects. And yes, Vader is more powerful with the Force.

Well they are actually incredible similar, both wield a hybrid Djem So form and are power fighters, both have incredibly endurance, both bolster their ability with Force rage, both were heavy armour with cybernetic enhancements, both chain Force powers into their attacks.

 

The only real difference between them is Malgus is acrobatic, and wields Force lightning.

[tunewalker]

Well they are actually incredible similar, both wield a hybrid Djem So form and are power fighters, both have incredibly endurance, both bolster their ability with Force rage, both were heavy armour with cybernetic enhancements, both chain Force powers into their attacks.

 

The only real difference between them is Malgus is acrobatic, and wields Force lightning.

 

but conversely vader, has more skill with telekinetics and has a keener and broader tactical mind.

[marcelo_sdk]

Well they are actually incredible similar, both wield a hybrid Djem So form and are power fighters, both have incredibly endurance, both bolster their ability with Force rage, both were heavy armour with cybernetic enhancements, both chain Force powers into their attacks.

 

The only real difference between them is Malgus is acrobatic, and wields Force lightning.

 

In theroy, maybe, but seeing them fight, the styles are totally different. Plus, I was referring, too, to their personalities, which are very different. Malgus was willing to sacrifice all he loved for power, as Vader was quite the oposite.

[Beniboybling]

but conversely vader, has more skill with telekinetics and has a keener and broader tactical mind.

Actually add that to the list, both Vader and Malgus were exceptional tacticians and employed tactics in battle.

 

There is definitely variation in skills, but they do have the same skill sets.

 

Anyway I think its soon time to get the lightsaber duelists thread up and running.

[Beniboybling]

In theroy, maybe, but seeing them fight, the styles are totally different. Plus, I was referring, too, to their personalities, which are very different. Malgus was willing to sacrifice all he loved for power, as Vader was quite the oposite.

There is a reason why Sidious gave Vader Malgus' diary, because they shared many similarities in mentality. And as a dark sider, Vader learned that love was a weaknesses.

 

And while they may seem different in terms of fighting, the power duelist principles are there.

[marcelo_sdk]

Actually add that to the list, both Vader and Malgus were exceptional tacticians and employed tactics in battle.

 

There is definitely variation in skills, but they do have the same skill sets.

 

Anyway I think its soon time to get the lightsaber duelists thread up and running.

 

There are some ties we should resolve regarding the lists, we postponed them until all lists were done. Perhaps we should resolve all of them before running a different kind of list.

[Aurbere]

Yeah, before the duelist list is made, we should probably settle any extenuating issues.

[LadyKulvax]

5. Exar Kun

6. Darth Krayt

7. Darth Vader

 

Which would be my change, this is what I propose we debate.

Edited July 30, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

There are some ties we should resolve regarding the lists, we postponed them until all lists were done. Perhaps we should resolve all of them before running a different kind of list.

An excellent idea, that can be dealt with on the 'home' thread I feel.

[Aurbere]

5. Exar Kun

6. Darth Krayt

7. Darth Vader

 

Which would be my change, this is what I propose we debate.

 

Perhaps. It is a possibility.

[marcelo_sdk]

So, our main issue is about Caedus vs. Vitiate.

 

Regarding the purpose of this thread, which is Force powers, I think Vitiate gets the edge.

 

Caedus is a far more deadly enemy, with very similar level of power to Vitiate, lightsaber skill incomparably greater, perhaps he outmatched Sidious at the end, and he is far more clever and cunning. But, sticking specifically to the Force aspect, I think Vitiate is stronger than Caedus.

[LadyKulvax]

So, our main issue is about Caedus vs. Vitiate.

 

Regarding the purpose of this thread, which is Force powers, I think Vitiate gets the edge.

 

Caedus is a far more deadly enemy, with very similar level of power to Vitiate, lightsaber skill incomparably greater, perhaps he outmatched Sidious at the end, and he is far more clever and cunning. But, sticking specifically to the Force aspect, I think Vitiate is stronger than Caedus.

 

Vitiate's most amazing feat is Nathema and he couldn't do it on his own, get rid of that and Caedus either has close ground on him in those areas or is better and then has even more abilities and powers on-top.

 

This is raw power and Caedus wipes the floors with Vitiate where raw power comes in, just one standard galactic year before he surpassed Grand Master Luke Skywalker? yeh okay, debate over.