ETA on Advanced Class change?

[psandak]

As "one who is against it but is willing to compromise," how about this:

 

Advanced Class change requirements:

 

• Character must be level 55
  
• ALL achievements are reset (which includes all companions are reset to zero affection and there stories are reset too because there are achievements for both max affection and companion story completion)
  
• Costs ~2500CCs to switch ACs (I figure 2000-3000 is appropriate and 2500 is in the middle)
  
• ALL class abilities are reset to rank 1 (meaning you have to pay credits to retrain EVERYTHING)
  
• If a switch is made, another cannot be made (on any character in the legacy) for three months
  

 

These restrictions deter willy-nilly AC switching, but it is there if you really want it.

[TUXs]

As "one who is against it but is willing to compromise," how about this:

 

Advanced Class change requirements:

• Character must be level 55
  
• ALL achievements are reset (which includes all companions are reset to zero affection and there stories are reset too because there are achievements for both max affection and companion story completion)
  
• Costs ~2500CCs to switch ACs (I figure 2000-3000 is appropriate and 2500 is in the middle)
  
• ALL class abilities are reset to rank 1 (meaning you have to pay credits to retrain EVERYTHING)
  
• If a switch is made, another cannot be made (on any character in the legacy) for three months
  

These restrictions deter willy-nilly AC switching, but it is there if you really want it.

 

I'm all for compromise, but this is just absurd. You're making up punitive punishments just for the sake of punishing someone...this isn't as complex as you're making it...it was a heads or tails choice for most players.

 

I'm fine with costs being high.

I'm fine with a lock out of sorts as well...not 3-months, not when players are paying real $ to do this, but I'm fine with a week or two.

I'm NOT OK with resetting class skills - those are 100% shared and this is punitive.

I'm NOT OK with resetting achievements. Those have zero to do with class or AC.

I'm NOT OK with resetting companion affection. Again, that's purely punitive.

 

My AC has ZERO, NONE, NADA, effect on YOU and YOUR gameplay. The people who would be utilizing this would be doing so to either help their guild fill a role (like a tank shortage) or to better enjoy the game. I'd rather have EVERYONE freely swap ACs 20 times a day than lose a single player for some ridiculous reason like they didn't like the AC they originally chose.

 

Here's an idea to all you people against it....mind your own flipping business. This doesn't impact you in ANY way at all! NONE! Play your game, let others play theirs.

[Ratajack]

It's a game Rat. Nothing is permanent - look at the ability to change your race, name, look etc...that was "permanent" at one time too...it's not any longer.

 

And yet, your CLASS still is PERMANENT.

[TUXs]

And yet, your CLASS still is PERMANENT.

Which is why we're in this thread asking when it's going to change...otherwise why the hell would this thread exist Rat?

[Ratajack]

I'm all for compromise, but this is just absurd. You're making up punitive punishments just for the sake of punishing someone...this isn't as complex as you're making it...it was a heads or tails choice for most players.

 

I'm fine with costs being high.

I'm fine with a lock out of sorts as well...not 3-months, not when players are paying real $ to do this, but I'm fine with a week or two.

I'm NOT OK with resetting class skills - those are 100% shared and this is punitive.

I'm NOT OK with resetting achievements. Those have zero to do with class or AC.

I'm NOT OK with resetting companion affection. Again, that's purely punitive.

 

My AC has ZERO, NONE, NADA, effect on YOU and YOUR gameplay. The people who would be utilizing this would be doing so to either help their guild fill a role (like a tank shortage) or to better enjoy the game. I'd rather have EVERYONE freely swap ACs 20 times a day than lose a single player for some ridiculous reason like they didn't like the AC they originally chose.

 

Here's an idea to all you people against it....mind your own flipping business. This doesn't impact you in ANY way at all! NONE! Play your game, let others play theirs.

 

So you'd rather risk losing players by allowing class changes just to cater to the "lazy, entitled, have to have it now and for as little effort as possible crowd"?

 

Anything that affects this game IS my business. Allowing class changes WOULD affect this game and therefore it IS my business to express my opinions. I will continue to do so, and I will continue to ask BW not to cater to the "lazy, entitled, have to have it now and for as little effort as possible crowd".

 

The mechanic already exists in the game to allow you to play that other class, and you cannot truthfully say it does not. It does require to actually put forth a modicum of effort and actually level it, though.

[Ratajack]

Which is why we're in this thread asking when it's going to change...otherwise why the hell would this thread exist Rat?

 

That's why I'm in this thread asking that it STAY PERMANENT.

 

The "lazy, entitled, have to have it now and for as little effort as possible crowd" can actually put forth the modicum of effort required to level that new class.

[Savej]

Change from Shadow to Sage is huge. First of all you don't use saber attacks as Sage. If you do use them, you're doing it wrong. We would have way too many level 55 Sages using their saber attacks if AC change would be allowed (like we don't already have too many level 20 Sages using Saber Strike and Double Strike).

 

Sage->Shadow is as significant an AC distinction as exists in the game. But it is not that significant if you compare it with the respec options in other games. Take the Wow druid - different specs can heal, tank, stealth melee or ranged dps - different energy mechanics, different stat priorities, different gear needed for many of those specs. sage and shadow can share every gear piece but one or two, they use the same stats, the same energy mechanics and many of the same abilities (nevermind the shared tree).

 

Saying that there are differences in how the ACs function isn't really an argument explaining why respecs shouldn't happen. There are much bigger differences between specs in other games than there are between advanced classes here. Base classes are fairly distinct but ACs are not.

 

On the issue of permanence, just because a trainer npc says "this is permanent" doesn't mean it should be or will always be. My character gets warnings about "this transaction is final" every time he spends comms but few of those transactions are actually final. And since when are Mmo's supposed to be like the DMV? RPGs have almost never been like that. EQ was a ground-breaking experiment for its day but also very limited compared to what we can do now.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Savej

[Ratajack]

Sage->Shadow is as significant an AC distinction as exists in the game. But it is not that significant if you compare it with the respec options in other games. Take the Wow druid - different specs can heal, tank, stealth melee or ranged dps - different energy mechanics, different stat priorities, different gear needed for many of those specs. sage and shadow can share every gear piece but one or two, they use the same stats, the same energy mechanics and many of the same abilities (nevermind the shared tree).

 

Saying that there are differences in how the ACs function isn't really an argument explaining why respecs shouldn't happen. There are much bigger differences between specs in other games than there are between advanced classes here. Base classes are fairly distinct but ACs are not.

 

On the issue of permanence, just because a trainer npc says "this is permanent" doesn't mean it should be or will always be. My character gets warnings about "this transaction is final" every time he spends comms but few of those transactions are actually final. And since when are Mmo's supposed to be like the DMV? RPGs have almost never been like that. EQ was a ground-breaking experiment for its day but also very limited compared to what we can do now.

 

Can you change your class in WoW? Can you change from a stealthy melee rogue to a ranged DPS shadow priest? Your class sounds like a pretty permanent choice to me, as it should be, IMO.

[TUXs]

So you'd rather risk losing players by allowing class changes just to cater to the "lazy, entitled, have to have it now and for as little effort as possible crowd"?

 

Anything that affects this game IS my business. Allowing class changes WOULD affect this game and therefore it IS my business to express my opinions. I will continue to do so, and I will continue to ask BW not to cater to the "lazy, entitled, have to have it now and for as little effort as possible crowd".

 

The mechanic already exists in the game to allow you to play that other class, and you cannot truthfully say it does not. It does require to actually put forth a modicum of effort and actually level it, though.

 

L O L! Name calling...how....typical of you.

 

How does this affect YOUR game exactly? How does my AC have ANY impact on YOU? How is that impact any different than me switching to an alt or respec'ing heals from DPS? It doesn't...you only care because you're nosy.

 

Can you change your class in WoW? Can you change from a stealthy melee rogue to a ranged DPS shadow priest? Your class sounds like a pretty permanent choice to me, as it should be, IMO.

I have no clue how W0W does it, I've never ever played W0W. Please, go play W0W if that's all you want this game to be.

[Savej]

Can you change your class in WoW? Can you change from a stealthy melee rogue to a ranged DPS shadow priest? Your class sounds like a pretty permanent choice to me, as it should be, IMO.

 

the part of my argument that you're refusing to acknowledge (with a fanatic's zeal) is that ac 's aren't what Wow calls a class. The fact that your position melts without clinging to arbitrary, separate and game-specific definitions as if they are identical makes a good case for ac swapping all on its own.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Savej

[Icebergy]

I am amazed that this thread is still going after all this time, but I'd just like to point out that I'm still on the side of no AC changes, and I would give serious thought to quitting the game on the spot if they implemented it. It would be very easy to exploit as a form of pay to win.

 

There are far more reasons not to have AC change than there are reasons for it.

 

Besides, you can get a new character to 55 no problem in the double XP weekend coming up. And then with legacy gear, you can use the same gear set for both characters and double your potential comms income per week for the same gear set.

[Halinalle]

Stating that leveling in this game "teaches you to play your class" is a poor argument, as GSF and Space Missions allows someone to level without learning their class.

 

Do you learn how to defeat TZ-27 Annihilator Droid (very good fight btw) or Valis by leveling through PvP/GSF/Space missions?

[Savej]

There are far more reasons not to have AC change than there are reasons for it.

Really? List a few.

[TUXs]

Really? List a few.

 

"You didn't earn it"

"I had to grind it out, you should too"

"You made a poor choice originally...suck it up and regrind like I did"

"You won't know how to play the new AC...I'm doing you a favor telling you you can't risk that"

"You screwed up...live with it lol"

 

Besides these that you know are coming?

[Icebergy]

Really? List a few.

 

/looks at 422 pages of thread

/looks back at Savej

 

I'm sure anything I could list has already been covered.

[Slicka]

/looks at 422 pages of thread

/looks back at Savej

 

I'm sure anything I could list has already been covered.

 

Okay, I don't believe in AC change, but that's just lazy.

[TUXs]

/looks at 422 pages of thread

/looks back at Savej

 

I'm sure anything I could list has already been covered.

That's the thing...I there has not been even ONE convincing reason in all 422 pages that would make me go "ya know, you're right...I'd rather force people to replay the same missions again than risk opening that can o'worms".

 

I'm not saying you're wrong...it may just be your opinion that you don't want it, and that's fine. My opinion is that it would be beneficial long term...and short tbh. I think it should happen sooner rather than later as I don't see even ONE negative to allowing people to swap...not one.

[Icebergy]

That's the thing...I there has not been even ONE convincing reason in all 422 pages that would make me go "ya know, you're right...I'd rather force people to replay the same missions again than risk opening that can o'worms".

 

I'm not saying you're wrong...it may just be your opinion that you don't want it, and that's fine. My opinion is that it would be beneficial long term...and short tbh. I think it should happen sooner rather than later as I don't see even ONE negative to allowing people to swap...not one.

 

On the other side, there has not been even one convincing reason for them to make this change either.

 

Honestly, even if I wasn't vehemently opposed to the idea, I would still see it as a waste of dev resources. I have no idea if it would be technically challenging or not for them to make this change, and I would much rather see them put their efforts towards new content.

[Slicka]

That's the thing...I there has not been even ONE convincing reason in all 422 pages that would make me go "ya know, you're right...I'd rather force people to replay the same missions again than risk opening that can o'worms".

 

I'm not saying you're wrong...it may just be your opinion that you don't want it, and that's fine. My opinion is that it would be beneficial long term...and short tbh. I think it should happen sooner rather than later as I don't see even ONE negative to allowing people to swap...not one.

 

Relearning how to play their class? Their class skills may remain the same, but not they have to learn their AC skills. I'm not talking about in their skill trees. I'm talking about the skills from the trainers. In truth, that's the only argument I can come up with, and even then it's a weak one. You just read your talent specs and you can learn what is one of the top priorities for your new class. I'm probably biased because I've leveled every AC so I don't see it as a big deal. If they did implement it, I'd rather it be a huge credit sink. For example, 2 million credits for the first change. Cap it up at 2000000^5, or something like that.

[Ratajack]

the part of my argument that you're refusing to acknowledge (with a fanatic's zeal) is that ac 's aren't what Wow calls a class. The fact that your position melts without clinging to arbitrary, separate and game-specific definitions as if they are identical makes a good case for ac swapping all on its own.

 

We do not need to go "game specific" to make the case that changing AC's is changing class, thanks to the devs of THIS GAME.

 

The devs have already stated multiple times that they see the AC's as fundamentally DIFFERENT class designs, that they treated the different AC's with in a story line as FULL classes, etc. The AC's are DIFFERENT and FULL classes in the eyes of the devs. As the ones who are in charge of this game, they are the ones in control the last time I checked.

 

You can call the devs' stance on AC's "arbitrary" if you want, but that does not change the fact that the AC's a DIFFERENT classes in the eyes of the devs.

[Vhaegrant]

Change from Shadow to Sage is huge. First of all you don't use saber attacks as Sage. If you do use them, you're doing it wrong. We would have way too many level 55 Sages using their saber attacks if AC change would be allowed (like we don't already have too many level 20 Sages using Saber Strike and Double Strike).

 

And the change from Telekinetics Sage (DPS) to Seer Sage (Heal) is insignificant then?

I'm not arguing that there isn't a learning curve, but it isn't significantly greater than the ones that already exist.

If a player has to pay a reasonable cost to swap AC (in the region of 1,000 - 2,000 cartel coins) then it's safe to think it wouldn't be done on an hourly basis and they have made an investment to play their class better.

 

Inexperienced players abound at endgame PUGs both Flashpoint and Operations. This is more because the difficulty finally becomes fixed against level and the focus is on gear. Most players end up overlevelled as they go through the game and it engenders a sense of overconfidence. Not to mention many find it easier to level as a DPS spec and then chose a role once they hit endgame.

 

I'd rather see players given a chance to learn their new role at the right point of difficulty (end game group content) than thrown right back to the beginning to level through content that doesn't really teach them anything a 20 minute run through the Ilum dailies wouldn't teach them.

[illgot]

I do not see why people are against it.

 

Companions are all the same, stats for the most part are the same, adaptive gear allows players to scale their gear.

 

The only reason to be against this is either selfish or that the player does not want to run into an awkward player in a PUG ops.

 

That's what you get when you pug, a random selection of players with varying skill, even now.

Edited March 11, 2014 by illgot

[Ratajack]

And the change from Telekinetics Sage (DPS) to Seer Sage (Heal) is insignificant then?

I'm not arguing that there isn't a learning curve, but it isn't significantly greater than the ones that already exist.

If a player has to pay a reasonable cost to swap AC (in the region of 1,000 - 2,000 cartel coins) then it's safe to think it wouldn't be done on an hourly basis and they have made an investment to play their class better.

 

Inexperienced players abound at endgame PUGs both Flashpoint and Operations. This is more because the difficulty finally becomes fixed against level and the focus is on gear. Most players end up overlevelled as they go through the game and it engenders a sense of overconfidence. Not to mention many find it easier to level as a DPS spec and then chose a role once they hit endgame.

 

I'd rather see players given a chance to learn their new role at the right point of difficulty (end game group content) than thrown right back to the beginning to level through content that doesn't really teach them anything a 20 minute run through the Ilum dailies wouldn't teach them.

 

1000-2000 CC's is nowhere near a reasonable cost to CHANGE YOUR CLASS. $10-$20 is not a reasonable cost to have a new class handed to you. A reasonable cost would be 6000-7000 CC's to avoid having to actually put forth the modicum of effort required to level that new class. That would equate to about $40-$50, enough to make someone think about whether or pay or to actually put forth the effort to level a new character.

[Vhaegrant]

We do not need to go "game specific" to make the case that changing AC's is changing class, thanks to the devs of THIS GAME.

 

The devs have already stated multiple times that they see the AC's as fundamentally DIFFERENT class designs, that they treated the different AC's with in a story line as FULL classes, etc. The AC's are DIFFERENT and FULL classes in the eyes of the devs. As the ones who are in charge of this game, they are the ones in control the last time I checked.

 

You can call the devs' stance on AC's "arbitrary" if you want, but that does not change the fact that the AC's a DIFFERENT classes in the eyes of the devs.

 

An old quote from a developer (at the time lead writer) who has long since left the game.

 

Things change.

When launched the Devs stood by the subscription only model, that changed with the release of the hybrid model. They stood by gear design should reflect class, that changed with the introduction of the adaptive gear.

 

We've also got the most recent quote from a Dev (all be it not that recent now but notably from the lead game designer at this time) along the lines of AC swapping has been considered and will likely happen in the future.

 

I doubt an AC swap function would materialise out of thin air. There would be more of a player base need for it than currently exists. It has been mentioned that we won't be seeing any full new classes in the future but new Advanced Classes were a possibility.

 

So, imagine a similar introduction along the same lines as the Appearance Kiosk and the Cathar species. A new range of Advanced Classes are released for the existing 8 classes. I've already suggested some thoughts on these in other posts but they would go to addressing gaps in the roles covered by the existing Advanced Classes (a techblade/ tech staff Advanced Class for the Bounty Hunter/ Trooper for instance).

On the back of this the AC swap function is also launched, a one use consumable purchased from the Cartel Market for 1,000-2,000 cartel coins and freely tradable on the GTN.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[Vhaegrant]

1000-2000 CC's is nowhere near a reasonable cost to CHANGE YOUR CLASS. $10-$20 is not a reasonable cost to have a new class handed to you. A reasonable cost would be 6000-7000 CC's to avoid having to actually put forth the modicum of effort required to level that new class. That would equate to about $40-$50, enough to make someone think about whether or pay or to actually put forth the effort to level a new character.

 

It's a perfectly reasonable pricing point and one based on some of the other costs in the game such as server transfers or species change.

 

What is unreasonable is pricing it so high people wouldn't use it. Put a big enough wall in the way and people won't seek a way to get over it they'll just go elsewhere for their fun.

 

And this seems to be a point you are uncomfortable with. People shouldn't have fun when playing SWTOR. It should stand as a second job with time consuming grind (an old mindset from MMOs to disguise lack of content) rather than just getting in and having a blast with a few friends.

 

I struggle as well to understand the argument that there is no demand for an AC swap function, and yet if it was allowed then every one and their Kowakian Monkey Lizard would be flip flopping between their two ACs every other minute completely disrupting the delicate skill pool of endgame PUGs :/ (<- sarcasm for those in doubt )