Technohic Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Well; like it or not, group composition and coordination matter when trying to take out a healer who is a part of another group. May seem difficult but the only realy trick is to have your composition and teamwork outweigh the other teams. its the way it has always been. Maybe healers are even more valuable now, but so what? You can have the same healers if you really wanted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baedwulf Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Because there is nothing balanced about it. It's one thing for a tank and a healer to survive 2-3 dps(albeit they should be struggling to do so), but an entire team beating on him and surviving without ever running going below 60% hp...? It should never happen. I would say it baffles me that anyone thinks this is ok, but then I realize that all of you are just hiding behind that veil and realize that if they balanced out healing you would suddenly be terrible at the game. You're absolutely right it shouldn't happen... and if an entire team is beating on a healer and can't get him below 60%... that's not a game design flaw. The flaw is between the keyboard and the seat at your desk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirullrich Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Because there is nothing balanced about it. It's one thing for a tank and a healer to survive 2-3 dps(albeit they should be struggling to do so), but an entire team beating on him and surviving without ever running going below 60% hp...? It should never happen. I would say it baffles me that anyone thinks this is ok, but then I realize that all of you are just hiding behind that veil and realize that if they balanced out healing you would suddenly be terrible at the game. But too bad for you if it was me I woulda killed the damn healers first. The jug fell into the pit more than once and while the enemy team kept letting him leap back up. Kill the healers and who is going to keep up the tank. You fail to realize that 2 healers were healing the jug. Freeeeeeeecasting. O btw I am can dps too and ugly is mainly a dps and he has never complained about healing be too strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirullrich Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 You're absolutely right it shouldn't happen... and if an entire team is beating on a healer and can't get him below 60%... that's not a game design flaw. The flaw is between the keyboard and the seat at your desk. He is not talking about the healer. He is talking about the tank. In the video he shows 2 healer freecasting the tank and the other team not being able to bring down the tank. Not once did the other team try to kill the healer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baedwulf Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 In fact I refuse to heal.... level 55 sorc and I have NOT ONCE spec'd heals. My legacy name is even "deepy'ess". Healing is fine... it's definitely a skill/coordination problem and I suggest grouping up with friends and finding ways to kill healers. This is why we have CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baedwulf Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 He is not talking about the healer. He is talking about the tank. In the video he shows 2 healer freecasting the tank and the other team not being able to bring down the tank. Not once did the other team try to kill the healer. LMAO! I missed the vid... came into the convo late. Either way you look at it... the issue is still the same and it's not a game design flaw. yes, this game has some problems but healer/tank combos is not one of them. Lemme check this vid out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkiestj Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 If you took 3 teams of equal skill. Team 1: 2 tanks/2 DPS/4 healers (DPS out stat) Team 2: 2 tanks/4 DPS/2 healers (Healers out stat) Team 3: 2 tanks/3 DPS/3 healers (Stats are equal) ... Barbie says ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baedwulf Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Found the vid... looks like what would happen in ranked if teams bothered to try and DPS the tank down. Same thing happened pre 2.0 and now it's gonna happen more. Like Sith said, healers free casted on him. If 2 of those guys would have taken 5-10 seconds to focus a healer they could have killed the ball carrier. There was absolutely no coordination... it was just a bunch of guys playing whack a mole on the wrong target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 But too bad for you if it was me I woulda killed the damn healers first. Chances are you wouldn't have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) I don't think you do... from my experience healers have always out stat'd DPS for reasons I stated before. Check my previous posts. It's as simple as math is and healing and DPS have scaled in a similar fashion from pre 2.0 to post 2.0. It's as simple as this. If you took 3 teams of equal skill. Team 1: 2 tanks/2 DPS/4 healers (DPS out stat) Team 2: 2 tanks/4 DPS/2 healers (Healers out stat) Team 3: 2 tanks/3 DPS/3 healers (Stats are equal) In team 1 the DPS will out stat the healers and in team 2 the healers will out stat the DPS. Of course there are variables involved such as facing a team of 4 healers improves DPS stats since stuff isn't dying and you're able to attack constantly for the duration of the WZ but you should get the idea. But basically this is the argument... and of course there are variables such as the other teams composition. And of course it's not EXACT or perfect but... This is what I see from my experience. You seem to be saying that if there are more DPS than healer then the healer has to have higher HPS than the BEST enemy DPS. This is wrong. Imagine 2 teams with 1 healer and 7 DPS. If both team know what they're doing, the lone healer will be target of 7 DPS the moment any fight begins. Because we have no tanks, that lone healer is obviously going to die very horribly. It's almost unfathomable the healer could possibly pump out higher HPS than the best opposing DPS (probably some kind of ranged DPS). The healer might have a higher HPS than the average DPS on the other side, but he should not be able to touch the best DPS. And why should he, if he is indeed properly focus fired by the opposing team, and in this case we got no tank and no other healer so he can't possibly do anything to improve his survivality. Now one thing you sort of alluded to is that tanks should be considered part of the healer crew. After all, if the tank didn't improve the healer's performance, why is he even there? He sure isn't going to out DPS the enemy DPS. So let's say you have these numbers: Your top tank - 500K damage done, protection irrelevent (because any benefit of protection is reflected by the additional heals your healer did) Your top healer - 1.5M healed Their top DPS - 1 million damage done (X2) In this scenario you can say it's perfectly fair that the healer healed for 50% more than their top DPS because your tank only did 50% of their DPS and makes up the other 50% as his Guard/other abilities improved your healer's survivality to do that extra in heals. But the healer did not do this alone. If you replaced your tank with a clone of the enemy DPS, then the healer's HPS is almost certainly going to drop. Further, there's no rule written in stone that the healer's total healed must not be less than 1 million. In particular, if the enemy top DPS then outplayed your top healer (say, by killing him now that he has no tank to hide behind), it'd be reasonable to expect your healer do heal less than what their top DPS did. I didn't mention this earlier but the healer who healed 600K while dying 7 times was never guarded (compared to our DPS doing 500K with 1 death). I don't think they had a tank in the game. In fact if he's guarded you'd have to try really hard to die 7 times. So there's no tank to pump up the healer's HPS, but even while dying a rather ridiculous 7 times in the WZ, that guy still outhealed our best DPS who died only once. Edited May 17, 2013 by Astarica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirullrich Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Chances are you wouldn't have. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean I can't. At that moment nobody was guarding the healers. You attack the healer he stops healing the tank then tank has no support. You take out 2 birds with on stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirullrich Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 You seem to be saying that if there are more DPS than healer then the healer has to have higher HPS than the BEST enemy DPS. This is wrong. Imagine 2 teams with 1 healer and 7 DPS. If both team know what they're doing, the lone healer will be target of 7 DPS the moment any fight begins. Because we have no tanks, that lone healer is obviously going to die very horribly. It's almost unfathomable the healer could possibly pump out higher HPS than the best opposing DPS (probably some kind of ranged DPS). The healer might have a higher HPS than the average DPS on the other side, but he should not be able to touch the best DPS. And why should he, if he is indeed properly focus fired by the opposing team, and in this case we got no tank and no other healer so he can't possibly do anything to improve his survivality. Now one thing you sort of alluded to is that tanks should be considered part of the healer crew. After all, if the tank didn't improve the healer's performance, why is he even there? He sure isn't going to out DPS the enemy DPS. So let's say you have these numbers: Your top tank - 500K damage done, protection irrelevent (because any benefit of protection is reflected by the additional heals your healer did) Your top healer - 1.5M healed Their top DPS - 1 million damage done (X2) In this scenario you can say it's perfectly fair that the healer healed for 50% more than their top DPS because your tank only did 50% of their DPS and makes up the other 50% as his Guard/other abilities improved your healer's survivality to do that extra in heals. But the healer did not do this alone. If you replaced your tank with a clone of the enemy DPS, then the healer's HPS is almost certainly going to drop. Further, there's no rule written in stone that the healer's total healed must not be less than 1 million. In particular, if the enemy top DPS then outplayed your top healer (say, by killing him now that he has no tank to hide behind), it'd be reasonable to expect your healer do heal less than what their top DPS did. I didn't mention this earlier but the healer who healed 600K while dying 7 times was never guarded (compared to our DPS doing 500K with 1 death). I don't think they had a tank in the game. In fact if he's guarded you'd have to try really hard to die 7 times. So there's no tank to pump up the healer's HPS, but even while dying a rather ridiculous 7 times in the WZ, that guy still outhealed our best DPS who died only once. I don't know what game you play but even when I was bubble spec I could out heal the highest damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 I don't know what game you play but even when I was bubble spec I could out heal the highest damage. Sounds like you're always hiding behind a tank then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirullrich Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Sounds like you're always hiding behind a tank then. Nope and we don't usually bring tanks in regs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baedwulf Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Sounds like you're always hiding behind a tank then. LOL? Wouldn't that be the smart thing to do? Weenie healers always hiding behind tanks... drop that guard and facetank me like a man!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverickmatt Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 LOL another bad who only reads what he wants to read. I'm unsure of how you got the impression that I read what I want to read. I'm sure you are unaware of this, but there is such a thing as supporting evidence. I read the statements, and since there is no question of what the author meant, there is no interpretation problem. I then quoted the previously referenced statements, and came to the conclusion that you and your pal are seriously lacking in either the intelligence or comprehension department. This is a phenomenon known as drawing conclusions. It's not witchcraft, I promise. My suggestion is that you spend less time being a forum warrior, and more time devoted to furthering your education beyond a 5th grade level. Back to the original point of this thread. Healing is what Bioware wants it to be. I said previously that it is not OP, and I don't believe that it is. I do think that the skill level required is significantly lower than pre- 2.0, but prior to 2.0 I remember complaints that there weren't enough support classes in WZ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saerith Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Any DPS that complains about killing healers 1) is a bad DPS and/or 2) refuses to focus with other DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 LOL? Wouldn't that be the smart thing to do? Weenie healers always hiding behind tanks... drop that guard and facetank me like a man!!! Sure but in that case those heal numbers didn't happen because of just you. You'd have to compare your heal numbers to the top 2 DPS on the opposing side since you've a tank on your side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Sounds like you're always hiding behind a tank then. Eh, my biggest healing numbers have come in games where I dont have a tank. There are a few reasons for this. 1) I am taking a ton more damage, that means I am healing myself more. My most efficient and biggest heal, is a self heal. Thus the more I heal myself, the better my numbers are, even if its not helping my team. 2) Tanks take less damage than dps. Thus many zones when I have a guard, I am over healing because the damage is being taken more efficiently and thus I am not having to heal as much. Heck for all you know that sorc was sitting behind the gate using consumption and inflating his total. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Back to the original point of this thread. Healing is what Bioware wants it to be. I said previously that it is not OP, and I don't believe that it is. I do think that the skill level required is significantly lower than pre- 2.0, but prior to 2.0 I remember complaints that there weren't enough support classes in WZ...... That's most likely true, though it has a very negative effect of making the average game drag on forever now that healing is what you do if you can't cut it as a DPS. Never dying or never killing your opponent is just never fun, and it's even less fun when both are happening at the same time as you can't even get out of the game in a reasonable time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) Less fun for you. Some people enjoy matches that are close and go down to the wire. Its not always fun for the game to be decided in the first 10 seconds. (Edit) And everyone understands that healing and dps are related right? I can only heal what damage has been done. So if Im in a wz with tons of damage, my healing stats will... If Im in a wz with no damage, my healing stats will... Unless people are taking fall damage, etc, healing numbers are entirely dependent on the amount of damage done. Edited May 17, 2013 by Soxbadger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Eh, my biggest healing numbers have come in games where I dont have a tank. There are a few reasons for this. 1) I am taking a ton more damage, that means I am healing myself more. My most efficient and biggest heal, is a self heal. Thus the more I heal myself, the better my numbers are, even if its not helping my team. 2) Tanks take less damage than dps. Thus many zones when I have a guard, I am over healing because the damage is being taken more efficiently and thus I am not having to heal as much. Heck for all you know that sorc was sitting behind the gate using consumption and inflating his total. Big numbers are relative. If you healed for 1.5M on yourself but some guy did 2 million damage then your heals aren't really that big. On the other hand healing for 600K when the highest DPS only did 300K is a ton of healing. Even with the 'increase healing received' talents, I doubt in these games you're feeling more comfortable without the tank. It's nearly certain a healer's performance will be improved with a Guard on him in almost any conceiveable case. If not, why do you even bring a tank? Yes in a well protected game you'd be able to heal other people too, and the DPS on your side that didn't (or never) die can put the game away for you, resulting in less healing numbers done because your DPS ends up putting away their DPS earlier. But in such a game your healing numbers, on a relative scale, is definitely going to be better than the enemy side compared to one where you're forced to heal yourself the whole time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Less fun for you. Some people enjoy matches that are close and go down to the wire. Its not always fun for the game to be decided in the first 10 seconds. (Edit) And everyone understands that healing and dps are related right? I can only heal what damage has been done. So if Im in a wz with tons of damage, my healing stats will... If Im in a wz with no damage, my healing stats will... Unless people are taking fall damage, etc, healing numbers are entirely dependent on the amount of damage done. A 10-0 Alderaan is decided in the first 30 seconds too. The only difference is that it takes 20 minutes for the inevitable result to play out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirullrich Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 I'm unsure of how you got the impression that I read what I want to read. I'm sure you are unaware of this, but there is such a thing as supporting evidence. I read the statements, and since there is no question of what the author meant, there is no interpretation problem. I then quoted the previously referenced statements, and came to the conclusion that you and your pal are seriously lacking in either the intelligence or comprehension department. This is a phenomenon known as drawing conclusions. It's not witchcraft, I promise. My suggestion is that you spend less time being a forum warrior, and more time devoted to furthering your education beyond a 5th grade level. Back to the original point of this thread. Healing is what Bioware wants it to be. I said previously that it is not OP, and I don't believe that it is. I do think that the skill level required is significantly lower than pre- 2.0, but prior to 2.0 I remember complaints that there weren't enough support classes in WZ...... Yeah I guess I am at the 5th grade, but the guy did write that he is not averaging more than 300k damage, but the very next sentence he wrote he can get 600-900k damage. Did you read that. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Bring a tank to win matches, not for stats. Stats are just for joking around. Having a tank increases my survivability (not my stats). With a tank, I can hold a position until reinforcements arrive. PVP is about winning, not about stats. Thats why all of this "healing is overpowered" makes no sense. It just changes the game to be about strategy. Instead of just killing everything, you have to think about your objective, your goals and what is the best way to accomplish them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts