Why no acknowledgement of overpowered heals?

[skarlson]

We had an alderan match that drug on forever last night due to healers. On our side I did like almost 800k damage with 8 kills dying twice myself. Both times I died, and why we lost that otherwise close match, was because most left to go try taking one of the sides while the opponent was busy at mid. Two of us were left and attempted to delay as long as possible so I eventually died twice. The gamble failed however due to the other team running like 4 healers. We had 2 healers ourselves.

 

The sheer abundance of healers on pub side or the sheer lack of healers imp side generally are the biggest issues I have observed on Jung Ma. I don't think healing and guarding doing their job is a bad thing. I will qualify this general view by acknowledging there are a few problems. Troopers healing through multiple people pounding on them SOLO with no cross heals is a problem, sages and sorcerers will never do that. Operative healers being so mobile you can barely keep up if at all let alone lock them down long enough to kill one without tremendous effort is a problem; then add cross healing.

 

Neither of those things can sages and sorcerers do; they are the most reliant on their group for protection otherwise they simply are ineffective as their effort is spent staying alive while their group dies around them. This is a huge discrepancy that needs to be addressed. I think part of it is the inferiority of sage/sorc abilities to keep at range compared to their other class counterparts. Part of it is the other class counter parts are at the other extreme where they are either way to tanky or way to mobile. There is no middle ground really.

 

Whatever tankiness a sage or sorcerer has is noticeably more effective when placed on an operative or trooper healer instead. Healing and guarding working as intended is not an issue; discrepancies in the effectiveness of classes to do their job is however a huge problem. I don't see that changing anytime in the near future however as Biofail has been demonstrating their inability to enact anything close to common sense for how long already?

[DimeStax]

We had an alderan match that drug on forever last night due to healers. On our side I did like almost 800k damage with 8 kills dying twice myself. Both times I died, and why we lost that otherwise close match, was because most left to go try taking one of the sides while the opponent was busy at mid. Two of us were left and attempted to delay as long as possible so I eventually died twice. The gamble failed however due to the other team running like 4 healers. We had 2 healers ourselves.

 

The sheer abundance of healers on pub side or the sheer lack of healers imp side generally are the biggest issues I have observed on Jung Ma. I don't think healing and guarding doing their job is a bad thing. I will qualify this general view by acknowledging there are a few problems. Troopers healing through multiple people pounding on them SOLO with no cross heals is a problem, sages and sorcerers will never do that. Operative healers being so mobile you can barely keep up if at all let alone lock them down long enough to kill one without tremendous effort is a problem; then add cross healing.

 

Neither of those things can sages and sorcerers do; they are the most reliant on their group for protection otherwise they simply are ineffective as their effort is spent staying alive while their group dies around them. This is a huge discrepancy that needs to be addressed. I think part of it is the inferiority of sage/sorc abilities to keep at range compared to their other class counterparts. Part of it is the other class counter parts are at the other extreme where they are either way to tanky or way to mobile. There is no middle ground really.

 

Whatever tankiness a sage or sorcerer has is noticeably more effective when placed on an operative or trooper healer instead. Healing and guarding working as intended is not an issue; discrepancies in the effectiveness of classes to do their job is however a huge problem. I don't see that changing anytime in the near future however as Biofail has been demonstrating their inability to enact anything close to common sense for how long already?

 

Are you saying Scroundels and COMMANDO HEALERS are OP but Sage heals are not? LOL.

[skarlson]

I think you didn't read my post is what I think. I did not mention anything about their healing alone. I mentioned their ability to actually do their JOB aka heal with dramatically less reliance on their team than a sorc or sage. In that regard yes they are overpowered. I did not say their healing itself was a problem. In fact I said there are two extremes solely in regard to survivability with sages/sorcs at the negative end, trooper healers near the positive end and operatives being the definition of extreme. Anyone who does warzones already knows and anyone who denies it either doesn't play warzones or is blissfully ignorant due to some ulterior motive.

[foxmob]

I know sorcs/sages are gonna hate me for this, but granting them an instant heal proc, especially something as valuable as salvation, once they are interrupted is wrong. that's not the only issue. I'm more or less unkillable in 1v1 scenarios. even the best solo dps on the server can't kill me so quickly that help won't arrive. dunno if that's an issue, but now throw a guard on me and good luck.

 

I still say make stacking alac more important. do this by forcing heal classes to cast heals. take away instant cast procs. make interrupts more effective (again?). but for the love of god, DON'T TRY TO FIX THIS WITH MORE STUNS.

[funkiestj]

No do they do not allow macros. I know of people who scripted there respec so they can respec in one second w/o having to do anything but press one button. I think it's cheap, but EA doesn't have enough employees to prevent it.

 

original BW post on the subject of macros

Greetings everyone,

 

When talking about anything macro related we would like to provide the following guidelines:

• No automation
  
• No delays or looped commands in macros
  
• It is okay to bind a macro that performs abilities after each other as long as it still requires the user to press the button on the physical keyboard each time a new action is performed
  

These rules apply regardless of which peripheral you are using.

 

Hope this clears it up a bit, but if you have further questions regarding the topic please get back to us!

 

a macro for respec might be considered "automation" and therefore prohibited. It seems pretty clear from the above that a macro that implements a priority list with one ability in that list activated per key press is OK.

 

I agree with the policing issue. It would be simpler if BW added macros to the SWTOR client and say "our macro engine can be used". that would be more clear cut.

 

A built in "respec, regear and quickbar adjust" macro plus a minimum delay for respeccing would removed the advantage gained by having an external macro engine providing a 1 second respec like you describe.

[Saerith]

I know sorcs/sages are gonna hate me for this, but granting them an instant heal proc, especially something as valuable as salvation, once they are interrupted is wrong. that's not the only issue. I'm more or less unkillable in 1v1 scenarios. even the best solo dps on the server can't kill me so quickly that help won't arrive. dunno if that's an issue, but now throw a guard on me and good luck.

 

I still say make stacking alac more important. do this by forcing heal classes to cast heals. take away instant cast procs. make interrupts more effective (again?). but for the love of god, DON'T TRY TO FIX THIS WITH MORE STUNS.

 

Krack, if you take away our insta-salvation proc, we'll probably cap out at like 1300 hps and STILL be the squishiest healers in the game. Two (good) combat sentinels can burn me down pretty quickly since every other skill is a root or a slow. I know you're jealous, but trust me, every sage healer out there is mad jelly of commandos and scoundrels for their survivability right now (and by right now I mean since launch).

[sirullrich]

Ran another game, this time Novare Coast. Here's the final numbers:

 

Top DPS (some BH) our side: 500K damage, 1 death.

Top healer (Sage) their side: 600K healed, 7 deaths.

 

We won the game very easily, by the way, as you can probably guess from 1 death on our top DPS.

 

Now I'm not sure in what world would you consider a healer that died 6 times more than a DPS as a good healer. Certainly the game was completely lopsided and yet our top DPS couldn't beat their top healer in number healed, even with a rather ridiculous difference in deaths on the two characters. In most serious games, the death numbers would look the other way around (7 on DPS, 1 on healer), and the gap will be even bigger.

 

So if your top DPS can't beat the enemy's top HPS when the enemy healers are getting rolled, then where's the balance? The point isn't that healing is autowin. Our team won because we have healers of our own and our DPS was still better than their DPS. But it's ridiculous to roll over a team and realize that a healer with 7 deaths still comfortably outhealed your best DPS with 1 or 0 deaths. In any reasonably even games those death counts will likely be flipped.

 

I have always outhealed the top dps. Nothing has changed. If your team had better dps then of course the other healer will put out better heals. It is only common sense. Your team puts out more dps the other healer is going to put out more heals.

Edited May 17, 2013 by sirullrich

[Baedwulf]

Next you're going to tell me that a solo healer will put out more heals than if there were another healer on his team ...

 

Or that DPS will put out higher numbers if there's a lot of healers on the other team....

 

I mean c'mon!!! Get outta here with all that logic and common sense. The forums is no place for it!

 

Next you're going to tell me that healers put out higher numbers than DPS because there are simply less healers than there are DPS on a team and 2 healers are working at compensating for the DPS that 4 DPS classes on the opposite team. What's after that? That if there were 4 healers and 2 DPS that the DPS would out stat the healers?

 

Shenanigans I say!!!

Edited May 17, 2013 by Baedwulf

[sirullrich]

next you're going to tell me that a solo healer will put out more heals than if there were another healer on his team ...

 

Or that dps will put out higher numbers if there's a lot of healers on the other team....

 

I mean c'mon!!! Get outta here with all that logic and common sense. The forums is no place for it!

 

Next you're going to tell me that healers put out higher numbers than dps because there are simply less healers than there are dps on a team and 2 healers are working at compensating for the dps that 4 dps classes on the opposite team. What's after that? That if there were 4 healers and 2 dps that the dps would out stat the healers?

 

Shenanigans i say!!!

 

stop ugly!!! My brain can't handle it.

[sirullrich]

Reading Comprehension OBVIOUSLY wasn't your best subject, so allow me to draw it in crayon for you:

 

 

 

 

 

He clearly states that he rarely breaks 300k damage and lists the reasons why, which are in essence being a good teammate and understanding that Objectives = higher chance to win, which is > Damage...

 

 

 

 

 

Again, he clearly states that there is another player on his server who puts up huge numbers, but is a terrible teammate.

 

And then ignorant fool #1 posts this:

 

 

Nowhere in those posts did he contradict himself. You're a fool, and before you post on the forums, claiming to be the SUPER ALMIGHTY PVP GOD DPS SUPERWOWZMEGABADMOFO, I would suggest you take a reading comprehension class. I'm certain Hooked on Phonics may help you, hell I bet they even have a program built specifically for your particular type of idiot.

 

P.S.:

 

 

I call BS. Your remarks, forum post history and apparent lack of basic vocabulary (Your default is calling someone bad... What kind of tiny mind can't come up with a better insult?) suggest that you couldn't function in a social group comprised of more than pre-pubescent teenage boys. This would indicate that you wouldn't have the capacity to play Rated PvP, because you can't do it solo and a team of 12 year old boys won't go very far. By all means, please post your server, your character names, and legacy name (just to make sure all the characters you post actually belong on the same account).

 

Have a nice day, you two.

 

LOL another bad who only reads what he wants to read.

[Baedwulf]

stop ugly!!! My brain can't handle it.

 

My head hurts.... I'm gonna take a nap.

[Raansu]

Then why is it that when I play on my sorc or sage that I am able to unleash my uberamount of healing?

 

I just came out of a game where the enemy does their damage on a tank who didn't die because I kept that tank's healthbar up while none of the enemy even tried to touch me.

 

The level of play in this game is so low. Poor quality of players. None heard of overextending, interrupts never happen etc etc.

 

Because that is a lose/lose situation. Attack the tank who can mitigate a lot of damage and get nowhere as the healer keeps healing them. Attack the healer and the healer just laughs as you get taunted and practically do no damage to them. Split them apart to break the guard and a jugg just intercedes or an assassin stealth out and closes the gap or the PT leaps back into range. That situation requires a ridiculous amount of effort to burn down, which is one of the reasons why stalemates are so common.

[sirullrich]

This game is about teamwork. Pugs lose more often then premades becaue of teamwork. Pugs claim they play objectives and play as a team, but majority of pugs only do what they feel is the right thing to do. So now you have 8 people with 8 different ideas on what is right. Play as a team and cc the right people and burst down the ones who are not cc'd. This game is full of cc's. Mark the targets you want down first, kill dps who over extends. TEAMWORK PLAY AS A TEAM.

 

As a healer it is easy to heal when the opposing team does not focus targets. When the other team tries to 1v1 everybody it is easy to heal, but if 4 people jump on one person let's say a squishy dps it is harder to bring that person back up.

[Raansu]

This game is about teamwork. Pugs lose more often then premades becaue of teamwork. Pugs claim they play objectives and play as a team, but majority of pugs only do what they feel is the right thing to do. So now you have 8 people with 8 different ideas on what is right. Play as a team and cc the right people and burst down the ones who are not cc'd. This game is full of cc's. Mark the targets you want down first, kill dps who over extends. TEAMWORK PLAY AS A TEAM.

 

As a healer it is easy to heal when the opposing team does not focus targets. When the other team tries to 1v1 everybody it is easy to heal, but if 4 people jump on one person let's say a squishy dps it is harder to bring that person back up.

 

Yeah sure, whatever you say...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTaN6iX_Ulw&feature=youtu.be

[Astarica]

Okay, I think I get it now. The healers are basically saying if they don't outperform the enemy top DPS they'd never be wanted because having a healer tag means you should automatically outperform the enemy team's best DPS. You do NOT always outheal the enemy top DPS before 2.0 unless you were an Operative and they were always rather overpowered for anyone who has any clue of how the healing situation was. In the numbers I quoted, the healer died 7 times while the DPS died once. In no world can this can be considered an equal performance. In fact this is pretty much a one way slaughter, and yet the healer that died 7 times is supposed to be the better player than the DPS that died once?

 

If your team's total HPS = enemy team's total DPS, then that means basically no one on your team ever died. A winning team's healer usually should outperform the top DPS of the other team, because their team won. In that game our healer had at least twice the HPS than their top DPS. But what should not be happening is the losing team to outperform the winning team's DPS especialy given the rather lopsided nature of the game. This means that had the other team had a few more guys that can heal that are no worse than then top healer (who wasn't very good, because he died 7 times to begin with) they'd be able to at least cancel out one of our DPS on a 1 to 1 basis. It'd actually be more because healing compounds itself (extra healers keep the healers who would otherwise die alive so they can heal more). So would that losing team with 4 healers win the game? Probably not, since our team had like 5 total deaths even when they have only one healer, so it's safe to say if they had more healers, which means they've less DPS total, then we'd probably have no deaths, and we'd eventually grind it out and win. But why should adding healers automatically improve your prospect? Worse yet, even if it did not, who wants to spend 20 minutes to see who can somehow cap the south node in Novare Coast when nobody died?

[sirullrich]

Yeah sure, whatever you say...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTaN6iX_Ulw&feature=youtu.be

 

Yeah I watched it and I know they were bads. The other team is attacking the jug getting heals. But no one bothered to attack the healers or CCCCCCCCCCCCCCC THE HEALERS. No firepull setups, filling resolve. So what does this video show. Lack of coordination. The other team was on ledge giving you the opportunity to jump back on while getting healed by 2 different people. So what you showed us a video of bads playing huttball all wrong.

[foxmob]

Krack, if you take away our insta-salvation proc, we'll probably cap out at like 1300 hps and STILL be the squishiest healers in the game. Two (good) combat sentinels can burn me down pretty quickly since every other skill is a root or a slow. I know you're jealous, but trust me, every sage healer out there is mad jelly of commandos and scoundrels for their survivability right now (and by right now I mean since launch).

 

if you look a little closer at what I said -- or maybe I just wasn't clear -- we all have too many tools to ignore interrupts. salvation is probably the single biggest heal in the game; that's why I singled it out. no. you shouldn't be able to instant cast it. likewise, I shouldn't be able to sit there for 15s and cast w/e I want to cast. I love the abil. but the fact of the matter is that all of these instant cast procs and immunity to interrupt abils make alacrity pretty worthless. that means more power stacking, which means bigger heals.

 

the fact that you're the squishiest healer in the game doesn't come into play here at all. we all need to cast more so that we can be interrupted and we'll need alac. hell, half the time, you WANT to be interrupted so you can drop an instant heal. I would also say nerf the op hots and buff their cast heals for the same reason. iunno. it's one solution. as it stands right now, though, I kinda laugh at the interrupts. they only matter with 2 or more ppl are on me.

 

if my pipedream change were instituted, they'd have to get rid of those extra effects that reset or add a cd to an abil once it's been interrupted. the emphasis on casting across the board would fulfill this function.

Edited May 17, 2013 by foxmob

[Raansu]

Yeah I watched it and I know they were bads. The other team is attacking the jug getting heals. But no one bothered to attack the healers or CCCCCCCCCCCCCCC THE HEALERS. No firepull setups, filling resolve. So what does this video show. Lack of coordination. The other team was on ledge giving you the opportunity to jump back on while getting healed by 2 different people. So what you showed us a video of bads playing huttball all wrong.

 

As usual you missed the entire point. It's amazing that you seem to think that it is ok for an entire team to dps a guy and him never really fall below 60% hp.

[Baedwulf]

Okay, I think I get it now.

 

I don't think you do... from my experience healers have always out stat'd DPS for reasons I stated before. Check my previous posts. It's as simple as math is and healing and DPS have scaled in a similar fashion from pre 2.0 to post 2.0.

 

It's as simple as this.

 

If you took 3 teams of equal skill.

 

Team 1: 2 tanks/2 DPS/4 healers (DPS out stat)

 

Team 2: 2 tanks/4 DPS/2 healers (Healers out stat)

 

Team 3: 2 tanks/3 DPS/3 healers (Stats are equal)

 

In team 1 the DPS will out stat the healers and in team 2 the healers will out stat the DPS. Of course there are variables involved such as facing a team of 4 healers improves DPS stats since stuff isn't dying and you're able to attack constantly for the duration of the WZ but you should get the idea.

 

But basically this is the argument... and of course there are variables such as the other teams composition. And of course it's not EXACT or perfect but... This is what I see from my experience.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Baedwulf

[Baedwulf]

As usual you missed the entire point. It's amazing that you seem to think that it is ok for an entire team to dps a guy and him never really fall below 60% hp.

 

If that ever happens... that entire team should macro alt + F4

[sirullrich]

As usual you missed the entire point. It's amazing that you seem to think that it is ok for an entire team to dps a guy and him never really fall below 60% hp.

 

It was like that pre 2.0 also. I don't see the difference. If 2 healers are healing the same person free casting it is possible. CC the healer kill the ball carrier. I mean since 1.4 we have been doing the same thing. CC the healer who probably doesn't have guard because tanks are usually carrying it. Which means it is easier to kill the healer. Either way with the proper cc and coordination someone should've died.

[Raansu]

It was like that pre 2.0 also. I don't see the difference. If 2 healers are healing the same person free casting it is possible. CC the healer kill the ball carrier. I mean since 1.4 we have been doing the same thing. CC the healer who probably doesn't have guard because tanks are usually carrying it. Which means it is easier to kill the healer. Either way with the proper cc and coordination someone should've died.

 

You're still missing the point here. It shouldn't be possible, period.

[sirullrich]

You're still missing the point here. It shouldn't be possible, period.

 

But it is and I am telling you to deal with it. It was always possible. Even before 2.0 two healers free casting will be able to keep up a tank.

[Baedwulf]

I'm still trying to figure out WHY it shouldn't be possible?

 

Why not?

 

Because you don't want to play in a coordinated fashion and you feel solo play should be just as effective as well coordinated teamwork?

 

That's the overall message I'm hearing.

[Raansu]

Because there is nothing balanced about it. It's one thing for a tank and a healer to survive 2-3 dps(albeit they should be struggling to do so), but an entire team beating on him and surviving without ever running going below 60% hp...? It should never happen. I would say it baffles me that anyone thinks this is ok, but then I realize that all of you are just hiding behind that veil and realize that if they balanced out healing you would suddenly be terrible at the game. Edited May 17, 2013 by Raansu