Why no acknowledgement of overpowered heals?

[Raansu]

Eyes wide shut.. you clearly read nothing..

 

You are basing your complaints for healers on other classes .. This is why there are always balance issues.. basing how a class should be changed based on another class.. You need to base it on the Class itself and nothing more.. Healers are overpowered because of guard.. Maybe its not healinig thats overpowered but tanks..?

Or neither.. I could heal indefinitely before 2.0 not because healing is overpowered but because i know what i am doing.. Anyone who knows me on my server (PoT5) knows i play all classes.. So I am certainly No advocate for just healing.. I am an advocate for not breaking game play.. If you played healer at all you would certainly know they are not gods now.. and never have been.. You can go and say "but i do play healer" but the fact that you said that clearly shows you would be lying.. As i said I hope heals do get nerfed.. It takes the game being broken for people to realize what they lost..

 

Final post on this topic i think I have covered all my points..

 

let the flames continue.

 

I have a scoundrel and I have spec'd heals before and did so while wearing dps gear. All I have to say is that it is brain dead easy, especially now that probes are dirt cheap and you can practically spam them. Topple that with emergency medpack and the class is a cake walk. I've lost count of how many times I've gotten down to 10% hp and then walked away with over 60% hp while having time to emote.

 

http://i.imgur.com/rJ2foyY.jpg?1

 

Relatively quick game I got in this morning. DPS geared, and I've only played heal spec like 5 times now...Sorry but it is easy mode.

[Whizzer_]

The big problem I see is that healing itself is not a very fun or rewarding experience in random WZs if you can't outheal the 1 DPS hanging on your backside.

The amount of healers who played random without a premade with a tank or something strange like bubblespec was pretty small before 2.0, in my experience.

In my mind thats part of Biowares problem here, they obviously want all 3 roles represented in a WZ, but healing other people and dying as soon as there is some actual Player versus Player involving your character is not a very fun role to have.

If some of the nerfs posted here come through, you would have to compensate the healers somehow, otherwise we are back to a lot more DPS Players and that with an even faster TTK.

Maybe something like WOWs goodies for tanks for SWTOR healers who queue for a random WZ?

Give me an extra 75 comms and 20K credits for every WZ as an underpowered healer and we can talk

Edited May 16, 2013 by Whizzer_

[Soxbadger]

I have a scoundrel and I have spec'd heals before and did so while wearing dps gear. All I have to say is that it is brain dead easy, especially now that probes are dirt cheap and you can practically spam them. Topple that with emergency medpack and the class is a cake walk. I've lost count of how many times I've gotten down to 10% hp and then walked away with over 60% hp while having time to emote.

 

http://i.imgur.com/rJ2foyY.jpg?1

 

Relatively quick game I got in this morning. DPS geared, and I've only played heal spec like 5 times now...Sorry but it is easy mode.

 

 

Check out the dps. There were only 2 players who put out up about 500k damage, and they were on your team. The empire team sucked. In fact the other team had 3 healers, which is probably the reason why they couldnt kill you, because they didnt have the necessary dps to win.

 

Im not sure if you are trolling, but your screen shot is evidence that healing is NOT OP. It shows that in a wz where 1 team has more healing and the other team has more dps, that dps will win.

 

Id have to see how much damage you took, but Im guessing less than 200k, which is basically free casting for a healer.

[UncelSam]

Solution:

 

A) Remove premades from regular PvP.

 

or

 

B) Cap heals with "Kolto Poisoning" meaning that you can only heal X amount per combat. After that Kolto doesnt help. You need to break combat to remove the Kolto Poisoning.

 

or

 

C) A real openworld PvP area with quests and rewards.

 

In old SWG there was a cap of how much you could heal and a cooldown of the heals. In this SWTOR there is NO cap whatsoever. It causes a HUGE problem since PvP in SWTOR is in boxed areas with static number of player(8vs8). If the WZ starts with a bad setup of random player without a healers, the whole WZ is 100% certain loss and that means NO FUN. Thats why ppl leave WZ so frequently.

 

So, BW needs to balace out the powerhealing premades if the PvP is to survive.

[Paulman]

That's just not the case, if you're killing healers, it's often because THEY are playing badly or not evasively enough, especially Scoundrel/Operative whose probe/medpac FAR outdoes mobile damage of all ranged specs and many melee specs. If all you're doing is chasing a healer who is constantly running, LOSing, etc, then you aren't doing damage or taking objectives, which means you aren't achieving anything productive.

 

The worst part is, it isn't even optional. If you chase them, you're not achieving anything. If you DON'T chase them, they freecast. It's a literal lose-lose situation that becomes worse the more players are involved.

 

A sniper or marauder can theoretically stack enough cooldowns and burst abilities to take one down, but that's a completely inane way to justify healing as "balanced". "Well 2 of the 18 dps specs in the game could theoretically burst down a healer with no cooldowns of their owyn who sits there and takes it, so healing is balanced." Completely insane.

 

Stacked healers makes things more difficult. Have 2-3 people chasing 1 healer, and said healer is themself being healed extensively by the other un-focused healers.

 

Warzone results consistently show healers above dps, often by very large margins. What people overlook is that dps values are INFLATED by a lot of wasted cleaves, AOEs, DOTs, that never endanger someone and don't kill anyone and are easily meditated off. It's VERY easy to spam Corrosive Grenades and Shrap Bombs to inflate damage numbers while achieving nothing whatsoever.

 

Healing, however, is UNDERstated in the results, where overhealing and unused absorbs aren't included. This actually means that the true output of healers is even HIGHER than results typically reflect. So not only is it mathematically FAR easier to achieve high healing numbers, those numbers are actually understated, whereas a lot of damage numbers are inflated and overstated. The margin between healing and dps is considerably higher than scorescreens will ever reflect. If you see 1 million healing to 500k damage, the true discrepancy is more like 1.2 million to 400k, or even wider.

 

This is a simple observerable mathematical fact.

 

Cc, focus fire, interrupts. Learn to use them.

 

Healing isn't understated. It shows how much was healed. Potential healing is understated just as potential damage is understated. The stats show what was actually done instead of hypothetically what was done.

 

You talk a lot about math and theory but in practice not everything works out like that. First of all stats don't decide warzone wins. Capping an objective, guarding and an objective produce no numbers but that's how wins are achieved. Once one team gains an advantage objectively it can be difficult to recover which will further skew the numbers, because the losing team will have to throw themselves at objectives to attempt a win.

 

Mathematically speaking you should have an advantage at playing blackjack at a casino because you can choose how much you bet you would have an advantage. But in practice they have table limits so there is only so much you can bet. It's the same for dps and healing. Players only have a limited amount of hit points. This is why focus fire, cc, and interrupts are necessary. If you just let healers sit there and free cast, sure you'll be at a disadvantage just as if I am a ranged dps and let a melee dps sit there and beat on me.

 

If you see a healer getting a million healing, it was probably just one healer just free casting. If 6-7 dps can't get on healers that's their own fault for losing.

 

Tanks got massive buffs in 1.2, who do you think is keeping those healers alive? Just saying.

[Astarica]

Check out the dps. There were only 2 players who put out up about 500k damage, and they were on your team. The empire team sucked. In fact the other team had 3 healers, which is probably the reason why they couldnt kill you, because they didnt have the necessary dps to win.

 

Im not sure if you are trolling, but your screen shot is evidence that healing is NOT OP. It shows that in a wz where 1 team has more healing and the other team has more dps, that dps will win.

 

Id have to see how much damage you took, but Im guessing less than 200k, which is basically free casting for a healer.

 

No, all that screenshot is that in a game where both sides have healers, one side has to lose.

 

Why do people always assume the DPS were bad? Like I said, yesterday I had a game where we have 5 total deaths and completely demolished the enemy side. Our top DPS (Smasher who never died) barely beat the enemy Sage healer that promptly died in every encounter and never casted Deliverance and had no Guard. He still beat all but one of our DPS in HPS done, and our DPS can't do better than killing him the moment he shows up. It took a smasher with 0 deaths to beat a healer in DPS done versus HPS done in a game we dominated from beginning to end. In any remotely even matchup not even the Smasher could've beaten the healer because he's probably going to actually die a few times and the opposing healer is likely to have a Guard.

[DimeStax]

This thread has some of the worst ideas I have ever heard. I've lost all faith in the PvP community.

[Soxbadger]

No, all that screenshot is that in a game where both sides have healers, one side has to lose.

 

Why do people always assume the DPS were bad? Like I said, yesterday I had a game where we have 5 total deaths and completely demolished the enemy side. Our top DPS (Smasher who never died) barely beat the enemy Sage healer that promptly died in every encounter and never casted Deliverance and had no Guard. He still beat all but one of our DPS in HPS done, and our DPS can't do better than killing him the moment he shows up. It took a smasher with 0 deaths to beat a healer in DPS done versus HPS done in a game we dominated from beginning to end. In any remotely even matchup not even the Smasher could've beaten the healer because he's probably going to actually die a few times and the opposing healer is likely to have a Guard.

 

Im not really understanding. The argument is/was healing is to powerful. He provided a screen shot where team A had 2 healers and team B had 3 healers. If healing was so overpowered/easy as he is arguing, then why would team b not easily win?

 

I think what most of these arguments are about is how many kills did I get this wz. They can change the TTK to 2 seconds, and then everyone can have 100 kills per game and watch the gate over and over.

 

As for dps v hps a healer should put out more healing than a dps. If they dont, then there is no point in healing as dps > hps and thus everyone should be dps.

 

As to your comment about the sage, im not sure what relevance it has what spell he cast. That is not the top spell for racking up heal numbers, you would get a lot more numbers just by casting 1) self heal (mine is 10k per pop), 2) resurgence, 3) innervate and then 4) revivication every time you get 3 stacks, unless you are low on force and then using those stacks to regain force, and then throw in a 2k aoe heal knockback (no force cost) when its up.

 

Unless I am being allowed to free cast (which he wasnt as you were killing him instantly) or have a guard (which he didnt), im never casting dark infusion. It takes 2 seconds to cast, against what good team are they letting me sit there for 2 seconds and not stunning?

[Vember]

Purely anecdotal, but I as I was reading this thread I yelled at my roommate, who mains a 55 sorc healer and merc healer, in the living room and asked "hey, do you think healers are overpowered in Tor?" He chuckled and said, "Oh yea".

[Astarica]

Im not really understanding. The argument is/was healing is to powerful. He provided a screen shot where team A had 2 healers and team B had 3 healers. If healing was so overpowered/easy as he is arguing, then why would team b not easily win?

 

I think what most of these arguments are about is how many kills did I get this wz. They can change the TTK to 2 seconds, and then everyone can have 100 kills per game and watch the gate over and over.

 

As for dps v hps a healer should put out more healing than a dps. If they dont, then there is no point in healing as dps > hps and thus everyone should be dps.

 

As to your comment about the sage, im not sure what relevance it has what spell he cast. That is not the top spell for racking up heal numbers, you would get a lot more numbers just by casting 1) self heal (mine is 10k per pop), 2) resurgence, 3) innervate and then 4) revivication every time you get 3 stacks, unless you are low on force and then using those stacks to regain force, and then throw in a 2k aoe heal knockback (no force cost) when its up.

 

Unless I am being allowed to free cast (which he wasnt as you were killing him instantly) or have a guard (which he didnt), im never casting dark infusion. It takes 2 seconds to cast, against what good team are they letting me sit there for 2 seconds and not stunning?

 

As overpowered as healing is, it doesn't guaranteed victory because the other side can have healing too, and there's still a difference between a good healer and a bad healer (though the gap is diminishing due to how easy it is to heal).

 

Why should a healer have higher HPS than the enemy DPS in a game he is thoroughly outplayed? Just because he's a healer? You should only have higher HPS than the enemy DPS if you're better than they are, not because you wear a healer tag.

 

Let's say a team's HPS is exactly equal to the DPS done by the opposing team. It is safe to say that in this case almost no one on your team died. There could be some fringe cases but if HPS = DPS, this basically implies all your guys are near 100% the entire game.

 

Therefore you can examine the problem at the individual level. Does the top healer at least match the top DPS? This is almost always true. This is even more true for average healer versus average DPS, and further still for bad healer versus bad DPS. Now because if total HPS = total DPS implies no one dies, a very logical conclusion is that you simply add more healers until your HPS is equal to the other side's DPS then you can be pretty sure no one on your team dies. That alone is not enough to win a game, but it sure is a good place to start. Healing also compounds itself, as a healer that can normally get 1 million healed can certainly heal even more if there's another healer backing him up, as this reduces his chance of getting killed so he can heal even more.

 

It's not that heal by itself is auto win. This is only true if one side has no healers. It's the fact that heavy heals implies the other side should also go heavy heals, and then you end up having games where the middle objective is never capped and single digit total deaths. It might be cool to have such a game once in a long while, but I doubt this is anyone's definition of fun if you've to do it repeatedly.

[sirullrich]

Everybody wanted the game to be balanced and fair. This is the result. Every game is like a rateds match. If you don't focus nobody dies. If you have ever played rateds it goes like this you take your node and fight over mid (NC AND CW). VS respec dps on offense and respect heals and tanks on defense. Huttball is the same not much has changed. It is not that healers are OP it is that now the margin of error for dps is smaller. The good players will still kill people and the bads are sill bads, but the gap has gotten bigger from goods to bads.

[Astarica]

Everybody wanted the game to be balanced and fair. This is the result. Every game is like a rateds match. If you don't focus nobody dies. If you have ever played rateds it goes like this you take your node and fight over mid (NC AND CW). VS respec dps on offense and respect heals and tanks on defense. Huttball is the same not much has changed. It is not that healers are OP it is that now the margin of error for dps is smaller. The good players will still kill people and the bads are sill bads, but the gap has gotten bigger from goods to bads.

 

It's exactly the other way around. Heailng has become easier so that the gap between the good healers and bad healers is less, which is why there are far more stalemates. Prior to 2.0 you only get into one if multiple good healers are present on the same team. Now 3 bad healers can usually force a stalemate. Focus fire never killed good healers. If it did they're clearly not very good healers. With the numerous escapes/interrupt protection available in 2.0, even bad healers can usually escape focus fire.

[sirullrich]

It's exactly the other way around. Heailng has become easier so that the gap between the good healers and bad healers is less, which is why there are far more stalemates. Prior to 2.0 you only get into one if multiple good healers are present on the same team. Now 3 bad healers can usually force a stalemate. Focus fire never killed good healers. If it did they're clearly not very good healers. With the numerous escapes/interrupt protection available in 2.0, even bad healers can usually escape focus fire.

 

Do you play rateds consistently if not then you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Baedwulf]

Do you play rateds consistently if not then you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

No no... you're OP... every one in regs is talking about it.

[sirullrich]

No no... you're OP... every one in regs is talking about it.

 

Yes I am!!!!! There is a guy putting up 350k damage and complaining healing is OP.

[Baedwulf]

Yes I am!!!!! There is a guy putting up 350k damage and complaining healing is OP.

 

350K damage is probably a little generous.

[Kattla]

 

I personally use a razor naga mouse, I have 12 thumb buttons, each with their own macro'ed set of rotations or actions. My healing, dps, tanking, etc--- will always outperform those without a gaming mouse, with the exception of those players who are just flat out better than me, and there are indeed, many who are better than me.

 

They have allowed the use of macros now? I know they "allow" them without delays and requiring a button hit

pr skill, but how complex are your rotations?

[platinumruggo]

I know I've tried interrupting commando healers and it told me I couldn't. I know I was targeting a mando and was using the right key, mandos can't be interrupted.

[sirullrich]

They have allowed the use of macros now? I know they "allow" them without delays and requiring a button hit

pr skill, but how complex are your rotations?

 

No do they do not allow macros. I know of people who scripted there respec so they can respec in one second w/o having to do anything but press one button. I think it's cheap, but EA doesn't have enough employees to prevent it.

[LaVall]

People are supposed to die in PVP. This isn't an operation.

[Zajfien]

People are supposed to die in PVP. This isn't an operation.

 

Never seen a wz with no deaths

.... or is it that you actually have to work for a kill now

 

& why is it that dps'ers demand a running heal must die....

don't see healers scream i could not kill the dps'er....

 

Everyone insta-dying isn't a battle at all

[Eillack]

Dear OP,

 

Try a CM Commando and rethink about what you typed.

 

Sincerely,

A player whose AC has been nerfed to the ground since 1.2

Edited May 16, 2013 by Eillack

[Paulman]

Im not really understanding. The argument is/was healing is to powerful. He provided a screen shot where team A had 2 healers and team B had 3 healers. If healing was so overpowered/easy as he is arguing, then why would team b not easily win?

 

This is priceless. Give evidence completely contrary to your arguement.

[Raansu]

Sorry but no. The screenshot was simply to point out how easy healing is. Both teams were equally bad as we were 3 capped at one point. All I was pointing out is my scoundrel is optimized for the scrapper spec and yet I did all that healing with on average 2-3 people attacking me (an assassin stuck to me like glue the whole time) and the only time I died was due to lag and me getting two GCD's without an ability going off. No way should I be that effective in DPS gear. Imagine if I was geared correctly for healing and actually knew how to play healing spec? All I casted throughout that entire game was probes and emergency medpack and the aoe whenever it was off CD. I'm not even good at playing heals and I did that well. It's brain dead easy right now.

[sirullrich]

Sorry but no. The screenshot was simply to point out how easy healing is. Both teams were equally bad as we were 3 capped at one point. All I was pointing out is my scoundrel is optimized for the scrapper spec and yet I did all that healing with on average 2-3 people attacking me (an assassin stuck to me like glue the whole time) and the only time I died was due to lag and me getting two GCD's without an ability going off. No way should I be that effective in DPS gear. Imagine if I was geared correctly for healing and actually knew how to play healing spec? All I casted throughout that entire game was probes and emergency medpack and the aoe whenever it was off CD. I'm not even good at playing heals and I did that well. It's brain dead easy right now.

 

It's easy when the other team had nobody doing over 300k dps. LOL