The weird people you meet in Group Finder.

[CheaterLL]

The dogs have a random aggro table and will attack whomever they want. The tank's job is to keep the boss occupied and away from the group while this is happening.

 

The Trash pull BEFORE the boss is what they're talking about.

[KarathAnno]

I've never had that happen to me in all the time I've done this FP with Operative and Merc healers. If you AoE taunt immediately after the dogs first jump to you, and then keep Smashing and doing other AoE attacks, it shouldn't be an issue. It sounds to me like yours might be an issue of timing, that you aren't using your AoE soon enough. Obviously, it's more challenging on a Juggernaut tank than an Assassin or Powertech. When I Sin tank it, I open with Wither and Discharge (both AoE abilities) and then AoE taunt for good measure.

 

The problem I have is sometimes the dogs don't jump me. I saber throw or leap to the guy in the middle and the dogs jump the healer in the back. Then I have to Intercede back to the healer and gather up the aggro. I suspect latency in my connection plays a part too but that is not something I can control. Where as if I LoS them I can always gather the agro as they come around the corner and it adds 5 or 6 seconds to the pull at most.

 

I'm glad you've never had this issue but I have and so far LoSing has been an effective work around.

 

The dogs have a random aggro table and will attack whomever they want. The tank's job is to keep the boss occupied and away from the group while this is happening.

 

I'm talking about the trash pull right before that one.

[Dras_Keto]

The problem I have is sometimes the dogs don't jump me. I saber throw or leap to the guy in the middle and the dogs jump the healer in the back.

 

Ok, here's your problem, Saber throw to start a pull that is initial aggro intensive is not what you want to do. Since most dps are trigger happy, they will attack the instant the red light goes on. Then you have to leap. Thats two GCDs used where you generate almost no threat. So, by the time the third GCD rolls around and you Smash, everybody has run off to eat your dps and healer. The best way to start a pull as a jugg is to hit Enrage, Leap > Smash >(sundering if the smash was resisted) > Crushing blow, etc and so on.

 

If you know it wont be necessary/useful in the near future, hitting saber reflect also generates a ton of aoe threat.

 

Another trick is holding your aoe taunt until *after* the mortar volley or whatever pulls off you but before they get too far away. Taunts set your aggro 10% above the highest person on the aggro table. That commando just used its biggest skill, hes not going to be doing anywhere near that amount of damage again for a while, whereas you just borrowed all his dps and made it effectively your own.

[Fdzzaigl]

I totally agree with this comment. Lately have been in fp's where lack of communication within the group has been an issue, and have had very similar experiences as the poster above, ie, tank makes moves that might be an LOS pull or maybe not, but either way ends up doing one or the other and doesn't tell the rest of the group. I would say out of those events, maybe 25-30% of those result in a death of at least one or all players. If nothing is mentioned before a pull I will assume the standard, basic rules of dps, healing, and tanking.

 

I'm surprised that people in group finder would even know what a LoS pull is. In my own tanking days in this game (granted, that was near the start) and others, people usually have no clue whatsoever about abusing LoS.

 

Even when I tried to explain to them what I was about to do, as I used the manoeuvre a lot, people usually just rushed the heck forward anyhow because they didn't get it. Not even when you just told them to stand behind object X. That's not accounting for guild runs of course.

 

So far I haven't seen any difference in the PuG runs I've done since my return.

 

Either way, if DPS would just kindly stay behind the tank and wait until he has pulled, you can simply see what he's gonna do. There's not usually much reason for anyone else to pull.

[KarathAnno]

Ok, here's your problem, Saber throw to start a pull that is initial aggro intensive is not what you want to do. Since most dps are trigger happy, they will attack the instant the red light goes on. Then you have to leap. Thats two GCDs used where you generate almost no threat. So, by the time the third GCD rolls around and you Smash, everybody has run off to eat your dps and healer. The best way to start a pull as a jugg is to hit Enrage, Leap > Smash >(sundering if the smash was resisted) > Crushing blow, etc and so on.

 

If you know it wont be necessary/useful in the near future, hitting saber reflect also generates a ton of aoe threat.

 

Another trick is holding your aoe taunt until *after* the mortar volley or whatever pulls off you but before they get too far away. Taunts set your aggro 10% above the highest person on the aggro table. That commando just used its biggest skill, hes not going to be doing anywhere near that amount of damage again for a while, whereas you just borrowed all his dps and made it effectively your own.

 

I do understand that and how threat works etc. I only started using saber throw on that pull to test different things after the leap --> reflect or smash failed a couple of times because the dogs jumped the healer instead of me. Again most of the time these tactics work there but on occasion I've had the dogs totally ignore me at the start of the fight if I try to leap to the dog and the guy.

 

Every time it has happened to me they have gone after the healer instantly (which is how I know it is not DPS throwing out to much AoE damage to quickly, otherwise they would be the targets) and it has always been with a healer with some sort of HoT or reactive heal running.

 

So I suspect that it is some combination of timing and latency where I leap and start the fight, gain agro on the target I leap to. If I am lagging sufficiently then there are fractions of a second where I have started the fight but the client and server do not agree on my location so so I cannot immediately follow up with a Smash/AoE threat gain. In that time if a heal goes off the healer gets a very small amount of threat on all the enemies and they jump him or her.

 

While I am not 100% sure that is happening it fits what I see. So I've started LoSing by running just around the corner and then stepping back when the first red dot reaches it. I can smash and catch one to three of them and then hold Crushing Blow for when the rest of the pack arrives. I then step back around the corner and

the dps goes to town. Even if I am lagging slightly they have no other target so they cannot leap past me to avoid the Smash,

 

It takes a few seconds longer but I have not had my healer jumped by 5-6 dogs at once since I started doing it. Not saying anyone else needs to just pointing out that I do it and I have a reason.

[venomlash]

Why would anyone LOS the dog pull right before the first boss in Mando Raiders? All of the dogs are melee; they'll jump right to the tank when he starts the pull by attacking the single humanoid target in the middle, so there's no positioning that needs to be done. LOS means "line of sight" and is only used to force ranged enemies to group together, it has absolutely no benefit when facing melee targets.

 

The issue I've seen sometimes is that the dogs have a leap; if a DPS or the healer pulls aggro for even a moment, they'll have a bunch of dog breath in their face about half a second later and they'll often be out of my AoE range. As some have mentioned, an inopportune HoT tick can cause them to go after the healer before my AoEs start hitting, but if the healer is around the corner, the dogs have to walk the distance. It's not necessary with a good group, but I tend to take extra precautions in groupfinder runs.

[CrazyGreggy]

I do understand that and how threat works etc. I only started using saber throw on that pull to test different things after the leap --> reflect or smash failed a couple of times because the dogs jumped the healer instead of me. Again most of the time these tactics work there but on occasion I've had the dogs totally ignore me at the start of the fight if I try to leap to the dog and the guy.

 

Operative/scoundrel with HoTs running or a Merc/Commando reactive heal thingy will trigger the moment your health bar has space to be filled. A sorc/sage or a lazy Op/Scoun, not so much.

[Dras_Keto]

Operative/scoundrel with HoTs running or a Merc/Commando reactive heal thingy will trigger the moment your health bar has space to be filled. A sorc/sage or a lazy Op/Scoun, not so much.

 

And if you saber throw the lone guy standing there, and he shoots you ... boom. If your dps arent smart enough to let you start that pull, and aggro stuff onto them before you get the chance, thats really their problem, even though most people would still blame the tank.

 

As long as you are the one that starts combat, those dogs are going to leap to you, then smash, wither, flame sweep, etc.

[Lord_of_Mu]

And if you saber throw the lone guy standing there, and he shoots you ... boom. If your dps arent smart enough to let you start that pull, and aggro stuff onto them before you get the chance, thats really their problem, even though most people would still blame the tank.

 

As long as you are the one that starts combat, those dogs are going to leap to you, then smash, wither, flame sweep, etc.

 

Pretty much all of this. I've never had an issue with those pulls because I use the dog's job to my advantage. I know exactly where they will be, which is right where I want them. In melee range with me aoeing / tab-target tanking them.

[Frenesi]

Had this some time ago with my TK sage.

 

We have another sage healer, sentinel DPS and guardian tank. SM run on Maelstorm prison. By this time i got relaxed - haven't had any group-wiping situations since hammer station. So i forgot about usual stance check for tank.

 

Somewhere near the laser-shooting colonel I'm starting to notice something strange. Guardian tank is nice guy, joking in chat, decently holding aggro on groups and even bosses. But he keeps using his force sweep - over and over. What's more strange - it deals ***-load of damage. Nothing i ever saw with other guardian tanks. I'm starting to get suspicious and finally check his stance. For god's sake - dude tanked 1/3 of FP being in focus tree. Without us even noticing it.

 

Paranoia takes me over and i ask him, is he sure he can tank rest of FP like this? "Nah, it's OK, i know what I'm doing" answer. Healer is also OK with it. Well, i have nothing to complain about too, so we keep going. Amazing thing is - we only wiped once, on the last boss, because healer wasn't hiding from snipes. Our guardian did his job perfectly.

 

It was my best fake-tanking experience ever )

[Elusive_Thing]

Maybe if you have a couple of aoe specs. Like a smasher and an APt. Ive never bothered doing it myself. If you leap or stealth in and attack the sorc/sage, those three wont move, ever. Even then they are still very grouped up, and stay that way as long as no one gets push happy (noob assassins...).

 

Most of the time that Ive done Mando as a dps and we have a tank who insists on LoSing, it just results in an initial aggro snafu after which you have the tank with the three tankable npcs in a little bunch and the warrior jumping around pushing people. Which is exactly the same situation you would have by just leaping/stealthing in, it just takes longer and gives the healer something extra to do for a few seconds.

It also prevents the Warrior/Knight from knocking people around. I've seen people LoS it often and it seems to work. When I tank it, I LoS if asked to, because I am not too bothered. Also, on my Sniper it enables me to wallbang the Warrior, which is handy.

 

Speaking of Mando Raiders, I had a curious SM run there while leveling yet another Juggernaut tank. I was level 25 at the time and had the toon decked up with mostly purple level 25 mods, implants of around the right level and so on. A quick look at the other members at the party implied I wouldn't have to worry about Guard, so off we went.

 

The first pull after three standard enemies that spawn in the lobby and our Assassin DPS (whom I did not see use Discharge even once, though he definitely got up to three stacks) pulls. No biggie, I leapt and grabbed the two doggies, taunted a standard and Force Screamed another one and we finish the lot. Before I could ask to be allowed to start the fights, the Sniper aggroes one of the elites on the ramp, causing the whole lot to attack. After this there was just enough time for me to type in that the DPS should wait for me to start the fights due to lack of ranged attacks, AoE taunts and all that.

 

At this point the Sin happily points out he is using a shield, so he will be fine. A quick inspection revealed that he did indeed have a level 12 Green shield equipped. Green level 12 shield with Aim, at around level 25, while in Surging Charge. I cringe and almots miss the fact the Sniper has already pulled another group... This breakneck speed and DPS pulling went on until the boarding party boss when the Sniper excused himself to get a glass of water. I used the opportunity to explain the tactics, but got interrupted around halfway by the Sniper who told me to jump in or he'd attack the bosses.

 

At this point the healer who had not said a word after the initial hello types something along the lines of "Dear DPS, let the tank do the tanking or neither of you gets a single heal." This kicked of an escalating argument where the two DPS yelled at the healer who yelled at them while I was describing the situation in the guild chat. After maybe five minutes I realised there is a votekick against me and I am being thrown out of the FP.

 

Well, I wasn't too bothered. I ran three or four Warzone, occasionally using /who to see what the two DPS were up to. After I finished, they were still in the instance. I put one of them on ignore, queued again, got in and ran through Mando with zero issues. After we killed the last boss, they were still in the instance, perhaps an hour after I had been kicked.

[BobFredJohn]

If your dps arent smart enough to let you start that pull, and aggro stuff onto them before you get the chance, thats really their problem, even though most people would still blame the tank.

 

Quite relevant to a HM athiss I had yesterday with my jugg tank. Merc healer, merc dps and mara dps.

 

The mara dps chain pulled everything, with me running in after to gather up the aggro, until ofc the merc dps runs in and jet boosts to split the group (I can just about understand assassins doing it, its their only aoe, but a merc??). After this happens in the first 3 pulls I switch to sii cho, deciding it will buff my dps and this mara and merc clearly don't care about the aggro.

 

The merc dps asks why im tanking in sii-cho

Me: "call for a tank when you want me, in the mean time ill dps"

Mara: "your tank role, you always tank"

Me: "if you want me to tank, stop pulling"

Mara: "you put your guard on me, so im allowed to pull"

 

Since when did having a guard = permission to pull before the tank? I switch back to soresu and tank all the pulls up to the beast of vodal kresh. At which point I start moving to the right so I don't get thrown over the edge. While im positioning to cope with the boss knockback, the mara pulls, gets knocked back and over the edge, lands in the strong and 2 elites below. He dies then throws a vote kick on me...It fails and the mara rage quits. Sniper replacement and theres no issues for the rest of the mission.

 

2 lightsabres = leadership!!!

Edited August 13, 2014 by BobFredJohn

[Elusive_Thing]

2 lightsabres = leadership!!!

Double the leadership. Also, he made a huge mistake. A Marauder does need Guard to be allowed to pull!

[DataBeaver]

Only pull I've LoS'd there is the boarding party boss. It makes things a lot easier and usually substantially faster as well.

I find it mostly just annoying. There are four players and four mobs clumped in a very small amount of space, meaning I can't see what's going on. I'm also getting banged up against the wall, disrupting any camera positioning I might try. As a tank, I won't be able to control the battlefield and see if I lose aggro on something, making my groupmates more likely to take hits. As a dps, I have to rely on tab targeting to find the next enemy to kill. At least now I don't need to be able to click the ground to fire off a targeted AoE. As a healer I'm usually clicking portraits to pick targets for my heals anyway, but if someone gets knocked around the corner, or up the ramp, I can no longer throw heals to them. LoS works that way too.

[Lord_of_Mu]

I find it mostly just annoying. There are four players and four mobs clumped in a very small amount of space, meaning I can't see what's going on. I'm also getting banged up against the wall, disrupting any camera positioning I might try. As a tank, I won't be able to control the battlefield and see if I lose aggro on something, making my groupmates more likely to take hits. As a dps, I have to rely on tab targeting to find the next enemy to kill. At least now I don't need to be able to click the ground to fire off a targeted AoE. As a healer I'm usually clicking portraits to pick targets for my heals anyway, but if someone gets knocked around the corner, or up the ramp, I can no longer throw heals to them. LoS works that way too.

 

That is actually the only time I will always use LOS. Trash pulls are almost never but that encounter a real pain. Mostly because the knock backs and slows screw my guardian over far too much.

 

I always move my camera angle to top down so I can still see everything going on. As a healer I move to the other side of the room so I have an increased threat threshold.

 

A lot of pug tanks don't know how to aoe tank so anything that helps them, helps me too.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Lord_of_Mu

[Elusive_Thing]

I find it mostly just annoying. There are four players and four mobs clumped in a very small amount of space, meaning I can't see what's going on. I'm also getting banged up against the wall, disrupting any camera positioning I might try. As a tank, I won't be able to control the battlefield and see if I lose aggro on something, making my groupmates more likely to take hits. As a dps, I have to rely on tab targeting to find the next enemy to kill. At least now I don't need to be able to click the ground to fire off a targeted AoE. As a healer I'm usually clicking portraits to pick targets for my heals anyway, but if someone gets knocked around the corner, or up the ramp, I can no longer throw heals to them. LoS works that way too.

Personally I don't really care one way or the other. I've seen some groups who only use the corner pull to kill the Warrior/Knight (and some times the Consular/Inquisitor too) and then fan out. As a DPS there is no need to tab target there. I mostly tank on my PT, so I can keep aggro pretty well even if the enemies are spread out, so any strategy is fine and I try to conform to whatever the group wants regardless of my role.

[Halinalle]

Is this also happening on other servers? Or is this just The Progenitor thing?

 

I've been leveling my carnage Mara during last few days and of course abusing XP boost "easy" KDY gives. Mostly great groups but...

 

In one of the groups everything was going fine until one of the members dc'd and got kicked. We were at bonus boss so we decided to try it, all 3 of us because leader refused to requeue. Carnage... I got a lot of hits during that fight. One of the members probably got knocked to other group of mobs and aggro them. I had to Force Camo at last possible moment to survive but I didn't know about those other mobs on left. So, I died pretty much instantly when they got to me. Everyone died, one of the members left the group after that. Leader still refused to requeue. I have to quit too because there's no way to kick this leader who also left. So, that was that group. One name to ignore list.

 

TL;DR

- One guy quits after dying

- Leader who doesn't know how to requeue

 

Few minutes later I got new GF pop and... one of the members from previous group is there (same guy who left after dying to elite + 2 standards). As soon as I get there this guy quits. We get replacement and what a fun run it was: sorcerer and 3 marauders. Awesome group even though sometimes a bit of chaos!

Edited August 15, 2014 by Halinalle

[Dras_Keto]

Three flashpoints on my lowbie sentinel. Three vanguards who thought they were commandos. Three more added to the list....

[jjmartin]

Lowbie Mando Raiders, a level 24 instance.

 

I haven't leveled a healer in a while, and although my main is a commando I figured I'd do a merc, just to see the story. Generally I do the flashpoint daily and that's it, double back for class missions when I've dinged a few levels.

 

Groupfinder pops and it's me healing, Jugg tank, Assassin dps and MARAUDER.

 

 

Trash Before First Boss

 

MARAUDER wants to up the degree of difficulty and pulls an extra pack during one fight. "Ok, no prob. You want to skill check me, I got this."

 

MARAUDER doesn't believe in out of combat healing.

 

MARAUDER does believe in starting each encounter. To his credit, the Jugg was in tanking stance but i don't think realized the problem here.

 

 

Boss with the Two Dogs

 

MARAUDER and the other two players leap to the middle. I'm not sure who the boss has aggro on, but it doesn't really matter as all three of the hostile mobs and all three of our melee are stacked in a juicy red circle of death.

 

Every now and then one or both of the dogs will aggro to me, which is actually an improvement as it gets them away from the boss. The Assassin is kind enough to notice and walks over to poke the dogs occasionallly when this happens.

 

Our melee seem to have decided on dividing the mobs equally between themselves and inserting an interesting pacing mechanic into the fight. All three mobs die within seconds of each other.

 

Aim legs drop. MARAUDER needs them.

 

 

Trash in Corridor

 

There's five mobs in the pack: 2 melee and 3 ranged. Each dps (let's be honest, there's no tanking occuring) picks a ranged and moves down the corridor to engage them.

 

The two melee mobs beeline it for me like I'm the hottest thing since N'SYNC. I stand there facetanking while our dps whack away. Eventually they kill the ranged mobs, but since they're now further up the corridor and not interested in turning around (MARAUDERS dont retreat) none of them notice I'm still getting attacked.

 

It takes about 20 seconds for one of them to finally figure this out, and again my friend the Assassin is kind enough to come kill the mobs that are all over my ***. Seriously, I stood there healing through this for 20 seconds.

 

As we continue *every* mob, even ones blatantly out of our line of travel must be engaged, by MARAUDER who has a thirst for digital blood.

 

 

Convo Screen

 

Right before this the Jugg disconnects. While waiting I'm curious so i check achievements. Yup, both on their first toon.

 

Eventually the Assassin gets around to vote-kicking the afk player, MARAUDER agrees. I pull out Mako and off we go through more trash. Right before the last boss we get a replacement who decides he doesn't want to walk all the way through the instance and leaves.

 

No prob, Mako it is.

 

 

Turret Boss

 

I type something like "when turrets spawn kill them, ignore the boss."

 

MARAUDER leaps. Boss goes to first turrets. Assassin switches to a turret, but MARAUDER can't be bothered to attack some dinky robot when there's a real live Mandolorian there to be butchered.

 

MARAUDER follows the boss around the room, aggro'ing every set of turrets. Assassin and I die on the second set.

 

By the time Assassin and I get back after respawning MARAUDER has Vette out.

 

I try again with the 'turrets first' communication. Seems to go better, MARAUDER acknowledges and confirms receipt of this information.

 

However, on the first set of turrets MARAUDER again stays on the boss.

 

Lines of text spring from my fingers:

 

-turret
-attack the turret
-stop
-turret

 

I will concede that this isn't terribly clear, but I'm a bad panic typer.

 

It works! MARAUDER is now willing to lower himself to attacking the turrets. However, by the time this goes through the second set have spawned and are shooting us from across the room.

 

We're making better progress now, the problem is that Vette is still targeting the boss and the third set pop up early.

-vette
-switch vette's target

 

This is obviously some sort of witchcraft and is dutifully ignored by MARAUDER.

 

....

....

 

Somehow we all survive and boss dies. 2 aim pieces drop, MARAUDER recognizes my efforts by allowing me to Need on them sucessfully.

 

Thanks for saving my bacon Assassin buddy. You're gonna go far.

[Halinalle]

MARAUDER leaps. Boss goes to first turrets. Assassin switches to a turret, but MARAUDER can't be bothered to attack some dinky robot when there's a real live Mandolorian there to be butchered.

 

Platinum > silver

 

DPS should always focus fire turrets in last boss fight because there isn't enough time before next turrets spawn.

[Elusive_Thing]

Platinum > silver

 

DPS should always focus fire turrets in last boss fight because there isn't enough time before next turrets spawn.

Unless you are a Marauder and you have group members to inspire with your heroics. Someone has to show the riffraff how the real fighting is done. The Marauder just overestimated the Assassin's (who has but a single lightsaber)

ability to deal with the turrets while he was busy creating a new song for bards to sing for ages to come.

[BobFredJohn]

There seems to be afew people on this thread making the same mistake, let me clarify.

 

You seem to assume the mara is just another player, it isn't. A mara is a deity having time off, hence why they have 2 lightsabers. The mechanics of the game and trinity group do not apply to maras, for they are above the standard of mere mortals.

 

Hope that clarifies the issue.

[BigBreakfast]

DPS should always focus fire turrets in last boss fight because there isn't enough time before next turrets spawn.

 

Hence his post...

[EranofArcadia]

You seem to assume the mara is just another player, it isn't. A mara is a deity having time off, hence why they have 2 lightsabers. The mechanics of the game and trinity group do not apply to maras, for they are above the standard of mere mortals.

 

Half the stories in this thread were added by people who don't understand that basic, self-evident fact.

[DalekTheCat]

Last night I was doing KDY on my 55 jugg because... I don't know, actually. Apparently I hate my life or something.

 

Things went pretty well, and we even successfully convinced one player that they didn't need to do all the bonuses because we don't get squat at 55. (Why is this even available at 55?)

 

Then we got to Starship Assembly. I told the group I could do the puzzle. Operative ignores this claim and immediately does the puzzle herself, deliberately incorrectly, without consulting the clues.

 

While we were enjoying killing the six champion spawns who stun you and drop jack poop, I asked why she had done this. Her reply was that it was faster this way. She went on to explain that she was a KDY veteran who had been doing this for five months, and she had solid evidence to back up her position that fighting needlessly was quicker than just doing the puzzle right to begin with, because most people never get it right anyway.

 

I asked her why, after five months, she had not yet bothered to learn how to do the puzzle, as this would seem to be the easiest solution to her problems. She responded that I should shut up, and then magically wound up on my /ignore list.

 

Why.

 

Why would anyone not want to make KDY less painful for themselves, even if they don't care about other people?