Back when I did KDY a lot, I'd see many a ranged dps set up shop at a kolto station during robot boss. And never, ever use it. Not just near it, but on it. Let's see if I can remember this DF GF story. It mainly involved a Mara, a Healer, and an Off-Tank. And a Hero-Merc. First, me: I didn't have a ship, or travel terminal unlocked for Oricon. Said I had no way (so I thought) of getting there w/o summons, and nobody summoned. So I just moseyed around fleet, even while ppl were fighting trash and the Mara was saying "Let's go, everyone's here". Then I realized I could buy priority travel . The Mara also noticed Hero-Merc wearing a mask. Mara: "Hey Hero-Merc, where did you get the mask?" Hero-Merc: "Secret boss in SnV" Mara: "Can you show me after?" Hero-Merc: "Can't" Mara: "Why?" Hero-Merc: "Requires nim & competence" Mara: "Rude." Then, the RL could not remember roles. Healer joined, and confusion about their role persisted up until Nefra. People kept insisting she was here for both roles. RL: "Healer, what's your role?" Healer: "Heals, but I can dps." Mara: "Healer is not heals, she has dps set, not heal set and 100% accuracy" Hero-Merc: "She's got heal set and 0 accuracy..." This Mara also brought the Off-Tank. We get to Nefra, I get in place. Off-Tank pulls, no /rc, nothing. I taunt from my position, but he taunts back. And instead of doing the usual things tanks do, he runs to the group and exposes them all to cleave. We wipe. Round 2, instructions to stack on me were given. We pull, but Off-Tank is a fidgeter and keeps advancing forward as he attacks, thereby driving Nefra back towards the group. He dies in transition while alone, so I taunt, and Hero-Merc is already standing on top of me. She goes down. I could've kept her taunted I guess, but I don't want to work that hard, and sometimes I like to watch funny things happen. Then we get to Draxus, and just after I tell Off-Tank to stand in 1 spot and hold Draxus, and while people are still running over... Mara does a DST at him. That was the end. No telling what joys awaited us deeper in the fortress.

I get where you're coming from, although I'd be careful about faulting them for not typing 'hi' and saying 'ty' at the end. Many people are there strictly for xp or cxp, not for a group flashpoint experience. I'd be much more critical of their actual playing behavior. Example being someone who speed rushes ahead of the group and starts combat on their own and forcing the rest of the group catch up with in-combat run speed. It does make me laugh when the group is quick and efficient, but someone still HAS to be first to a mob or dialogue station. Uh oh I used a roll and my toon is getting close to yours, better rocket boost so I don't catch up.

I feel like I'm doing more "clarifying" than "complaining". You may see that as the same thing, but it really isn't. There are people who aren't aware of the real issues behind the complaints (or are happily ignorant about them), and I won't stop "clarifying" until I get tired of repeating myself. And I'm happy that the game's new direction doesn't bother you as much as it bothers others. I can assure you that when the time comes where you have a legitimate complaint, I won't be telling you to stop. I rarely pvp, but I haven't once thought to myself that the pvpers should stop complaining about maps/balance issues. And I think every possible question about new ops / pvp stuff has been asked before. Haven't heard a thing back.

For the record, I haven't personally created a new post bashing the live stream and screaming about rewards. But when I see people say, "Lol why are people complaining, shut up and enjoy the game or quit", I feel compelled to respond. And I've responded civilly, so I don't understand how you want me to take it down a few notches. Please don't confuse a sincere attempt at an explanation as an emotional rant. Ops aren't "gone" or "removed", but there is nothing new. Rav/Tos released December 2014, and people estimate new ops will be here anywhere from August to October 2016. That's a long time to wait for people who play for ops. Yes, we knew about this before 4.0. But many people stayed anyway to check out the story, hoping for at least SOME news about ops. Ops have always been part of swtor... why did it stop? "To address Elder Game issues" they say. How is this working now? Is there any news at all? We could just not complain at all and leave, but I love this game and I don't want to stop playing. And surely BW doesn't want to lose us as subs.

Welllll, I wanted that guy to respond, but oh well. #2 I aimed at Operations, and I'll admit I didn't word this in the best way. But what I mean is, up until now, BW has provided both Story and other Endgame content (ops in this case). With KotFE there are no new ops. So they aren't actually removing anything, but what some people enjoyed about this game is suddenly gone. #3 was aimed at pvp. My point is, we all play this game for a reason, and when the game no longer provides it, you get upset. People get upset and they complain, or simply move on. And those who complain obviously still want to play the game. Someone may play for story, flashpoints, pvp, ops, collecting.. any of these and more, by itself or in combination. But take that away and you take that person's enjoyment away. Those who are here for story are pretty safe in this regard, because there will always be story associated with Star Wars. But there are other people here for other reasons. And anyone who automatically dismissing them as complainers and babies doesn't understand the issue or is just being selfish.

Questions: 1) What do YOU enjoy about the game. Specifically. Story, Flashpoints, etc...? 2) How would you feel if they took one of those away? 3) How would you feel if no new story was released after the 1-50 quests?

Wat o_O. <Zorz> quit the game because there was nothing left for them to do. The same is happening now to many guilds that have completed all nims and hms. They are merging raid teams to fill holes and even have to search for new talent. And these guilds have completed all the hard stuff without being in full 224s.

Please see this comment regarding the BW poll: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8674677&postcount=519

Don't flame me for this, but whenever I see someone post with a female avatar, they are usually so calm. And yeah, I've seen your argument a lot. Live stream was about the sub reward announcement, why did we go there expecting them to mention anything else? I'm gonna paste something to this that I wrote in another thread and someone else's addition to it: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8677319&postcount=650 In short: • ops/pvp have always been requested. • lack of communication / information from devs leaves our questions unanswered. We are always thinking about them, and will ask when we get the rare chance to. You wouldn't miss the play-as-HK if the devs hadn't said anything about it. I'm not sure who actually wished for one before the announcement, but those who say, "Now that you mention it, I WOULD like to play as HK" don't count. And besides, you already have an HK companion available to you. Adding another HK to your fleet of companions is no big deal. OTOH, as I said, people want new ops. People want more pvp. And we ask for this all. the. time. No one's asking for "more" or "something else", just the *same stuff they've always given us": endgame content. And for the record, my initial like 2 posts were aimed at the OP, who seemed to think people were complaining because of Entitlement issues, which is incorrect.

Some people complain because they've invested so much into a game they love to play, and suddenly the thing that got them hooked stops getting made (ops). No one's asking for anything extra. Nobody asked for a playable HK mission. Pvp people have always wanted pvp stuff and have asked for it forever. Pve people want new ops, which were always provided with the game. The thing about companion strength is that they never took away from the game. A lot of people say they don't do ops/pvp because they want something casual to do while they relax at home. Companions helped with that, even if they were overpowered. We have to look at what people are asking for, and not just focus on the whining aspect. Companions nerfs took something away from the game: quick heroics, very casual gameplay. I tried a heroic SF after the nerf and I beat it without Alliance buffs, but with more difficulty than I expect a very casual player to care for. I'm not one to say, "You know, I got what *I* want, I'm happy and everyone else can just unsub if they're not happy". That's ridiculous. I didn't do heroic SF beyond my first char except when I tried it after the nerf, just to see if what people were saying was true. And it was, companions were extremely nerfed. Similarly, what people are asking for now is not taking away from the game, but the same stuff we've always had that they stopped providing. They gave us an addition to the swtor story, but nothing else. KotFE story is great, no doubt. But a large reason why this game was considered a flop at launch was because there was nothing to do AFTER the story. We have rehashed ops, but everyone's done 'em all already. We're not asking for the world, just the same kind of content they've always given us.

This live stream was about the sub rewards yes. But people were upset about no new ops long before this announcement. There are other issues too like pvp, class balance, bugs, etc... that have been around for a long time. Why I think people got angry was because we realized that it wasn't a reward for current subs (no entitlement going on here) but rather an incentive for new subs. Also, yes, communication is not at the level a lot of people think it should be at. We've asked on forums and at cantina events about stuff like new ops, with no information other than "not with KotFE". So when we actually have a chance to see the Devs and communicate via a light speed twitch chat, we kind of hope for / expect a little bit more general information about the overall direction of the game.

You're lumping anyone who complains about lack of content (which started WAY before this latest live stream) into this tiny fraction of people who are upset about the reward.

It's not about the rewards. Seriously, READ THE OTHER THREADS.

That's story content. There's always been more than story. Seriously, read the other threads.

If you'd bother to read the threads or understand the issue better, you'd realize that's it not about getting a "reward" or not. No one asked for it. That's not the issue.

Yeah, fair point. I can think of a few things: a) silly stuff like "should i hit the next button guys, is the stream ready for it?" only to see a 5 second teaser clip and longer than expected wait for Chapter X. b) I think a lot of people thought that "sub reward" meant a reward for current subs. And before anyone says it, NO I don't feel entitled for a reward. Nobody asked for a reward, and I could care less about a special reward. It's just the wording made it seem like it was for current subs. Even the way they spoke about it, iirc: "We just wanted to say thanks for playing our game..." etc.. Maybe that was just for the T-Shirt thing, but it doesn't matter. You read "sub rewards" as a sub and you think, "Hm let's see what they've done for us subs". Then you realize it's not about anyone currently subbed at all, but an incentive TO sub. Again - I don't feel entitled for a reward. And again, we all knew there were no new ops. Prior to 4.0 we discussed in our guild who was sticking around or not for 4.0. Majority of the answers were along the lines of, "Might stick around for the story, but no new ops /cry". Like I said.. final straw.

Again, I think revamped older ops was a neat idea, but not the preferred choice over new ones. And I don't see how ops now are more relevant than they were before. Classic SMs were a faceroll sure, but I've been in groups that wiped on SM dread ops at level 60. And there was always hard mode to try, and nightmare. But now, bolster is ridiculous, gear is much easier to get (Santa Soa/highlighted), SM ops have had mechanics removed entirely. And most of the harder content now was still too hard for most people before the revamp. So people are still stuck doing sm/hm. And moving hm rav/tos decos to sm? Why? Yeah, and they said no new ops with KotFE, in order to fix some issues with Elder Game. Are these issues fixed? Can we have some news on ops? If not, why? Anyway, whatever the reason, I'm just saying that people were already disappointed about no new ops when they announced it. You wanted a reason why people were suddenly so upset? Because the live stream was just the final straw. A 5 second teaser clip, really? It was 5 seconds. Play as HK, where did that even come from. Tons more reasons on the main thread.

Oh sorry, I misunderstood. Still though, they took time to create a play-as-HK mission. And whether or not it was created just from their survey as they claim, or was part of their original story plan and is being re-purposed as a gift, it's still time that could've been spent making their current subs happy. And by making them happy, I mean continuing to provide ops, which they always have until now. Nobody would have missed the play-as-HK, but people have been asking about new pvp/ops for a while. If they legit need time to set up the story so they can base new ops on it, great. But again, to my knowledge, I haven't seen this explicitly stated. Only that ops will come after the entirety of the story. And it's annoying that every time the subject comes up, it seems to be flat out ignored.

So, for those who stay subbed for ops. Last ops released with 3.0 in December 2014. New ops projected release mid-late 2016. Let's say August as some have said. That is a long time for no new endgame content. And I don't count rehashed, updated ops, because they've all been done before. And do you mean by your 100% guarantee that someone who does ops won't try out the HK missions? Because I totally would. Actually you'd be pretty close to 100%. Staying subbed just to finish the story quickly and have nothing left to do isn't worth the single extra HK mission. And a lapsed sub = no HK mission. If you're right, it's working like a charm.

Right you are. But the live stream showed us that they spent time / resources on a completely extra bit of story instead of addressing lots of issues still floating around. They haven't told us why (to my knowledge) there won't be new ops or haven't been any pvp changes. I've always assumed it was due to strained resources, but now I see they've had time enough to create this extra bit. If no new ops or pvp, what about bugs / balancing in the game we've already paid for? What took so long for field respec fix? Why is nim loot still bugged? And I get it. Not a high priority over something that could net them more subscribers. The thing is, we're already subscribed, and stay subscribed for those reasons. So yes, it was nothing we didn't already know. I think just the hype of the "incentive" got people's hopes up, and it was just the final straw.

I know the topic of the thread is about the reward, but that's not why most people are upset. Many people finish the story and look to do something else. They can pvp or they can do ops. But there hasn't been pvp changes in forever, and there have been no new ops since 3.0 and no plans given for any. Many people stay subbed purely to do ops (myself included). Story is great, no doubt. But I finish that quickly and I want to try something more challenging. For those people who are happy with story content, great. You guys are safe, as there will always be story content associated with Star Wars. But for those of us who have come to love playing this game for ops, which have always been a part of swtor until now, we feel a little betrayed. I can understand how our plight has no effect on your game enjoyment, but it's a major part of ours.

Have you at least tried to understand why people are whining this time?

The challenge.

I guess you're right, but it also ignores a lot of subs who have stayed subbed while waiting for new endgame content (pvp, ops). Ops have always been around, and many people stay subbed just for the ops, and probably will continue to do so as long as new ops are available. Which isn't the case anymore.

Not entirely sure of your target, but it's true that the pvp/ops community is a minority. We are still a part of this community though, and our opinions shouldn't be considered overspoken nonsense. We have lives, school, families, careers. If you want to target the few who fill their posts with profanity, please go ahead. That doesn't make the rest of us trolls or weak. Also, the opinions of the mass of nonsubs are just as empty as the minority here, because BWs ultimate goal (as made clear by the live stream) is for people to sub. KotFE requires a sub to play, so does the HK companion and extra HK chapter. The difference is, those of us who are upset are already subbed. And anyway, how does adding more single player content add to the community? You don't need guilds for that. I'm not sure where you got this "elitist narcissism" from. That could maybe describe the individuals who 100% supported the companion nerf and blamed other people's failures on l2p. Asking for new ops, or even new pvp, doesn't make those people elitist. And it's not asking for anything special that the game hasn't already offered before. Bottom line, we love playing this game too, and we're upset because BW stopped providing content that made it fun for us.