Stop guarding the healer in Flash Points!

[Beltane]

As someone who has played a healer main since launch, I always just assumed that guard was what the tank was supposed to put on a healer. The reason for this is that in PVP, guarding the healer is just the norm, and in pretty much every single flashpoint or operation I ran as a healer I would automatically be guarded by the vast, vast majority of tanks.

 

So, imagine my surprise when I finally got a tank to 50, entered my first HM and dutifully slapped a guard up on the healer--only to immediately get screamed at for being "fail tank."

 

I will be the first to admit I only rarely play my tank and don't really know the class inside out yet, but I constantly struggle as a jugg tank to keep agro off of the healer on pulls with a group of ranged mobs. Sometimes the mobs can be spread over a fairly large area, and I feel pretty spastic trying to run to each one and drag the rest around. At that point, I usually lose agro on the first ones I attacked/taunted to the DPS and have to regain it, all the while keeping the ranged mobs off of the healer.

 

In those instances, I have guard on the healer. Maybe it's a problem with my gear (half recruit and half columi) not having great threat generation yet? I don't know, I just know that guarding the healer tends to make the healer not die on trash pulls. When I notice a DPS constantly pulling agro, I switch the guard to them. And from the perspective of a healer, there's nothing more annoying than having to stop healing the group to spam heal myself to survive because I have 5 ranged mobs shooting me while the tank tries to get them off.

 

Maybe I'm crazy, but for pugs, healer guard seems pretty logical. For well-oiled groups that know what they're doing (i.e. DPS that helps get the trash agro off the healer instead of only attacking the elite the tank is tanking) I fully understand and acknowledge that guarding a DPS is the best course of action. But when it's a group of unknowns, I heal guard by default and feel no shame.

[RandomXChance]

While it is true that you should not guard the healer, some very broad generalizations are being made that do not always apply. When we are doing ops, the melee DPS is first choice for guard, and if no melee, then the top ranged DPS. This is the starting assumption I use when tanking a pug FP.

 

Most problems with healers getting aggro are due to DPS not working correctly. The tanks job is to hold aggro on enemies from strongest to weakest and the DPS go from weakest to strongest to clear up the room. The ability of a tank to hold threat on multiple enemies changes depending on what class. When I am on my Assasin, sure I can grab and hold quite a few enemies. The Assasin (and I assume Shadow) have two "high threat" aoe attacks on a low cd. When I am on my Jugg, it is hard to hold more than two. The Jugg has two single target "high threat" attacks and 1 weak *** non-high threat aoe. I love nothing more than people who have not tanked assuming all tanks work the same.

 

When DPS are failing by focusing on the boss and leaving the weak mobs (especially ranged weak spread out), then guarding the healer is needed due to all the mobs ganging up on the healer.

 

Before you just go into auto mode and rage on the tank, look at what the whole party is doing and try and evaluate where the problem actually is.

[mikebevo]

I will be the first to admit I only rarely play my tank and don't really know the class inside out yet, but I constantly struggle as a jugg tank to keep agro off of the healer on pulls with a group of ranged mobs

Because the failure is not yours, it is dps job to kill the mobs further away, you should control the eliets and strongs to the best of your abilities and it is up to dps to kill the weaks first. Healer will keep you upright while the dps does their job. There is no way for you to keep aggro from these unattacked mobs off the healer. So your struggle is in vain.

 

If you are comfortable putting the guard on the healer then do it. Just think about it for a second when the healer has 20k or above HP. Not saying they know what they are doing either, but if they do they would rather you put it on mDPS.

[Khamil]

Nor do healers come remotely close to the threat generation of classes like the Sentinel which lacks any kind of threat reduction ability.

 

I'm likely going to make a post in the guide forum. Try and nip this in the butt before the stupid overwhelms me.

 

FYI there is Force Camoflague for marauders, Im sure the sentinels have the same mirror ability. Before you make a guide, eliminate holes in your education.

[alifaraaz]

Jeez there was like a massive thread on this same topic a few weeks ago in the Tanking section.

 

Its a situational thing, which can be usedul on melee dps, can be useful on healer etc etc. Generally yes, i stick it on the strongest melee dps, or weakest in terms of armour.

However sometimes if I know healer will be taking damage for whatever reason, and I cna ahndle aggro easily, then ill stick it on the healer.

 

For example, Kephess, both in EC and TfB. I often swithc guards mid fight. Start on the best melee dps, then switch to whoever gets targeted by the laser in TfB or picks up the bomb in EC. Thats just one of many examples where, its a bit of extra work, but if you use your head, Guard can help healers out a lot.

[mikebevo]

Its a situational thing,

Yes there are times in Ops were it is a good idea, but as to topic I can't think of any in HMFP beyond maybe last boss on LI. Sawbones isn't the fastest class in game, so tanks seem to always take the guard off of dps and put it on me there. It does help there when guarded I will finish some heals that normally I may interrupt by moving before it is finished.

[Lord_of_Mu]

FYI there is Force Camoflague for marauders, Im sure the sentinels have the same mirror ability. Before you make a guide, eliminate holes in your education.

 

Good advice and I'll likely build on my knowledge of the respective classes. Though any guide I make for tanking will focus purely on threat mechanics from a tanking perspective.

[Sydexlic]

To break it down. In PvE: "While active, the guarded player takes 5% less damage and generates 25% less threat. In addition, so long as you remain within 15 meters."

 

In pvp: 50% of all incoming damage from enemy players is transfered back to the tank, so long as you remain within 15 meters

 

The 15 meters is only for the damage transfer in PvP, the threat and damage reduction is applied no matter what and is purely as a result of you having the buff. Distance to the tank doesn't factor in to those 2 aspects of the guard buff at all.

[Lord_of_Mu]

The 15 meters is only for the damage transfer in PvP, the threat and damage reduction is applied no matter what and is purely as a result of you having the buff. Distance to the tank doesn't factor in to those 2 aspects of the guard buff at all.

 

If there has been some theorycrafting and or testing on the range aspect. I'd love to take a look at it. It's been a while since I've had a chance to read up on the number crunching.

[Beltane]

Because the failure is not yours, it is dps job to kill the mobs further away, you should control the eliets and strongs to the best of your abilities and it is up to dps to kill the weaks first. Healer will keep you upright while the dps does their job. There is no way for you to keep aggro from these unattacked mobs off the healer. So your struggle is in vain.

 

If you are comfortable putting the guard on the healer then do it. Just think about it for a second when the healer has 20k or above HP. Not saying they know what they are doing either, but if they do they would rather you put it on mDPS.

Thanks for the kind words, I was certain my head would be bitten off for saying I dare to guard healers by default most of the time!

 

I did a good bit of tanking today and am happy to say I was able to guard DPS--most of the time. I only had to healer guard once, because the DPS absolutely refused to attack anything but the strongest elite so I had to scurry around like a chicken with my head cut off while the healer complained that I needed to get the agro off her (and died repeatedly anyway because she was in half greens, but I digress).

 

Sadly, I almost never see DPS who kill the weak mobs without being told. It puts a lot of burden on the healer and tank when this happens. DPS is a job that can be done well too, but it seems like most just go in and press random buttons...

Edited October 30, 2012 by Beltane

[RikuvonDrake]

As a tank I normally don't use guard in flashpoints until the moment when someone takes aggro from boss or is always pulling packs before me, that is at least for me the best way possible to handle the guard issue.

[sumuser]

As a tank myself I usually throw my guard on my healer. Bottom line: the healer is my life line and I their's. if the DPS'ers are doing their job right, they shouldn't need it. Why? Because as others have said, it is my job to hold the toughest in the mob while the DPS'ers take out the trash. When its time to work my mob, they (the DPS'ers) ought to focus on one elite at a time (to which I can keep aggro using my taunts).

 

It gets all kinds of f-up when each DPS'er is ignoring the trash and each randomly hitting the mob I'm trying to control WHILE the healer is throwing in some AOE for "good measure". In a situation like that all I can do is bust my butt to keep the healer alive. So, for me, I find the guard is most useful on a healer in most of the pugs I run.

 

On the off-chance I get a good crew (or running with guildies) I may throw my guard on a melee DPS'er... But again, if they are both doing their job right they shouldn't need it

[eGraced]

I'm just happy when the tank guards ANYONE. While healing, I rarely ever see the guard icon on anyone, at any time. First get people to actually use the skill, then complain about how they use it.

[POPsi]

Thanks for the kind words, I was certain my head would be bitten off for saying I dare to guard healers by default most of the time!

 

I did a good bit of tanking today and am happy to say I was able to guard DPS--most of the time. I only had to healer guard once, because the DPS absolutely refused to attack anything but the strongest elite so I had to scurry around like a chicken with my head cut off while the healer complained that I needed to get the agro off her (and died repeatedly anyway because she was in half greens, but I digress).

 

Sadly, I almost never see DPS who kill the weak mobs without being told. It puts a lot of burden on the healer and tank when this happens. DPS is a job that can be done well too, but it seems like most just go in and press random buttons...

 

I'm primarily a healer, but I also dps regularly in FPs, and having the viewpoint of a healer I always go for the weaker mobs to get them off from healer. Sadly I noticed it's usually only me who does this.

[Kanjir]

Wrong, threat reduction from guard works within 15m, at 16m theres no guard. And answering to the sage above, guarding melee is usually the way to go, melee wil be side by side with tank almost all time, while a sage should be at max range to avoid nasty AoE, also most of the bosses have cleave-like abilities that with some pug-bad-possitioning issues increases the dmg taken by melee, add to it that most melee classes has higher burst than ranged ones, the threat reduction may come handy for that.

 

In short, a melee dps will get more use of guarding than a ranged dps, and yes, agree with OP, healer should not get guard, if healer gets killed by adds its a bad tanking issue.

 

Only exception to the melee over ranged rule would be huge differences on gearing.

 

Wrong, threat reduction works to over 80 metres which is further then you will ever need to be from a tank. It is most likely an infinite range, I've tested it myself with logs and parsers. Guard should be on the highest DPS player, or one which does not have a threat drop - Powertech or Vanguard DPS.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Kanjir

[BogyOne]

I would suggest before people reply to this thread they read and understand how threat works in SWTOR, its pretty clear from many of the responses so far quite a few people have no idea about the basics of threat.

 

http://mmo-mechanics.com/news.php?article=kors-laboratory-threat

Thanks for the link, I was looking for some info from reliable site on 110% and 130% aggro pull thresholds.

[Aelther]

I usually guard the DPS that has the highest amount of HP just because I'm kinda lazy in pugs and don't really feel like analyzing everyone's class/gear and making an informed decision. I'll change my guard if another DPS is ripping threat off me or (usually) attacking the wrong thing a lot.

 

This I do exactly the same thing.

[Kanjir]

I would suggest before people reply to this thread they read and understand how threat works in SWTOR, its pretty clear from many of the responses so far quite a few people have no idea about the basics of threat.

 

http://mmo-mechanics.com/news.php?article=kors-laboratory-threat

 

My 2 cents, I consider guard's primary role to be a threat reducer, so I will 1st guard someone who is pulling threat off me. If there are no threat issues, I guard the person most likely to take the most damage of the group, if that person happens to be the healer so be it.

 

In terms of the whole idea of guarding a healer, if you are guarding a healer for the threat reduction, you are doing it wrong. Tanks and DPS should have no trouble generating far more threat than a healer. A healer should not have aggro on any mobs a few seconds after a fight starts. If the healer does have aggro on mobs after the 1st few seconds its an issue of a tank who doesn't know how to pick up and tank groups and/or issues of DPS who do not understand kill order.

 

That post is actually incorrect. Guard has, as far as i've tested, an unlimited range on the threat reduction. It's easily seen through parses.

[NrDLeipe]

i agree with the OP guard on a healer is not needed.

 

some other things though.

 

1, DPS needs to give tanks time to gather all adds in most cases they attack before the tank does or are on a totally diffrent target then the tank is. ( guard this guy or let him take the hits if he dies its his own fault he shouldnt be on that target imo )

 

2, Put your guard on the highest threat producing dps, from own experience its most of the time a mara or a BH

mara when it is single target , Bh when alot of aoe comes into play ( sometimes a sorc )

 

Figgs, Tofn

[Ms_Sunlight]

1, DPS needs to give tanks time to gather all adds in most cases they attack before the tank does or are on a totally diffrent target then the tank is. ( guard this guy or let him take the hits if he dies its his own fault he shouldnt be on that target imo )

 

...erm, DPS are usually supposed to be on different targets to the tank in trash pulls. Tank holds on to the elites and champions - the heavy hitters - while the DPS burn through the weak, normal and strongs first. It's when the DPS all jump on the same target as me that I (as tank) start to worry.

[NrDLeipe]

...erm, DPS are usually supposed to be on different targets to the tank in trash pulls. Tank holds on to the elites and champions - the heavy hitters - while the DPS burn through the weak, normal and strongs first. It's when the DPS all jump on the same target as me that I (as tank) start to worry.

 

true but in how many cases does the dps follow that order maybe 10% , most just jump in on the elites or the first target they see.

 

And im not worried at all when dps is on same target i gather all the mobs by pull and knockback and i start to aeo ( assassin ) wither and discharge build nice threat sometimes you use a trash when you have enough force.

 

And a decent tank can tab switch between targets also in the meantime

Edited October 30, 2012 by NrDLeipe

[Ms_Sunlight]

true but in how many cases does the dps follow that order maybe 10% , most just jump in on the elites or the first target they see.

 

And im not worried at all when dps is on same target i gather all the mobs by pull and knockback and i start to aeo ( assassin ) wither and discharge build nice threat sometimes you use a trash when you have enough force.

 

And a decent tank can tab switch between targets also in the meantime

 

I'm sure you're not worried. After all, it's your healer who's doing the hard work keeping you topped up because you're taking more damage from all those weak, normal and strong trash mobs the DPS aren't burning down.

 

Yes, a good tank can compensate for idiot DPS. I can compensate for idiot DPS - but we shouldn't have to compensate for people who don't know the absolute bare minimum about playing their role.

[KeyboardNinja]

Ok, quick note: the threat reduction from Guard works at any distance (check your combat logs). As a general rule, guard the DPS who is putting up the highest burst, regardless of where they are standing.

 

With that said, I do guard the healer under certain circumstances. Off the top of my head:

 

• Kaon Under Siege - Lots of mobs, and nothing that lives long enough for anything to pull agro off of me in a problematic way. Guarding the healer makes it easier for me to hold all the mobs.
  
• Terror From Beyond Phase 2 - Healers actually generate more threat than the tanks due to the damage reduction on the boss.
  
• Firebrand and Stormcaller (after first shield) - After the first shield, threat is a non issue. It's literally impossible to lose agro after that point (unless you're a terrible tank). My guard goes to the healer kiting lightning at that point, though I have also been known to guard the DD takers.
  
• Minefield - Damage redux is the only thing that matters here. Threat is a non-issue since everything dies…fast.
  
• Operator IX - Doesn't really matter, one way or another. Half the time I forget and leave it on the DPS I had been guarding going into the fight.
  
• Bonethrasher - Threat? What threat?!
  
• Kephess (immediately prior to Gift of the Masters) - Damage redux. Healers tend to be the squishiest players on the field (especially if you're running sage/sorc). 5% of an 8k tick is actually pretty significant.
  

 

Another interesting use of guard is on Karagga. Usually, when I do that fight, my co-tank just respecs. On the occasions when I run with a tank who doesn't respec, he gets the guard.

 

My point is this: you can't make a blanket statement about "always guard this." There's enough mechanical variation between fights that you need to approach these things on a case by case basis. Do I guard healers by default? No, that goes to the high-burst DPS. Do I never guard healers? Absolutely not. One of the things that separates the good tanks from the great is the ability to swap guard situationally.

[TyeWebb]

That post is actually incorrect. Guard has, as far as i've tested, an unlimited range on the threat reduction. It's easily seen through parses.

 

You are correct on the guard threat reduction/distance issue, its either unlimited or really, really far. I believe all the other information there is still correct.

[Aurojiin]

[*] Kephess (immediately prior to Gift of the Masters) - Damage redux. Healers tend to be the squishiest players on the field (especially if you're running sage/sorc). 5% of an 8k tick is actually pretty significant.

I agree with the rest of your list, but I regularly escape Gift with less damage than the rest of the raid. Do your sages not know about Force Speed?