Stop guarding the healer in Flash Points!

[Ms_Sunlight]

Putting guard on a healer is not idiotic. It is however not always appropriate. Guard should be flexible and situational, and I'll often change who I guard in the middle of a fight as needed.

 

When I'm tanking a pug, I'll put guard on the healer going in because 5% damage reduction is 5% damage reduction and it's there and free so why not?

 

If one of the DPS is pulling threat from me I put guard on them to make my life easier. This is usually because of the deadly combo of higher level gear, burst DPS and lazy play. I never have this issue running with guildies, it's usually pugs who want to faceroll their way through their daily HM for comms.

 

(A friend of mine who heals a lot watches out for this behaviour and often likes to give bad DPS a scare by letting their health drop under 20% until they start behaving themselves, especially the sort of idiot sentinel or marauder who plays like an overexcited puppy, always wants to leap in first and loves breaking CC with their force sweep or smash. I'm not quite so evil yet, but I'm getting there!)

 

On the other hand, when you get to ops bosses, guard goes back on the healer again. If you lose threat in an op, it's because you're scripted to lose threat - an example is Bonethrasher - and there's nothing you can do but get it back again, guard won't help. On the other hand, 5% damage reduction is 5% damage reduction and it's there and free so why not? I would keep an eye on DPS though, particularly melee DPS, to see if at any point they start to need the damage reduction more.

 

There are no doubt situational exceptions but that's my basic thoughts on the matter.

 

Like most people who tank, I've had healers having a go at me in group chat because I put guard on someone else, but it usually becomes apparent when I explain why I've done it that they don't understand the threat mechanics in this game. A healer is almost never going to pull threat off the tank unless the tank has 0 threat on a mob, and in that case, % reduction or no % reduction, their threat is still going to be more than 0, so guard won't help.

 

Indeed, when I heal I've often suggested that the tank shift guard off me and onto a burst melee DPS because I know how to manage my own threat as a healer, and it's easier for me all round if I'm not having to spend my time keeping glass cannons like sentinels and marauders on their feet. It even lets me help out with the DPS a little someitmes, and we all get through things faster.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Ms_Sunlight

[SentinelDranoel]

This has started to become an annoying trend among pugs and really has to stop. Lets look at what guard does.

 

"While active, the guarded player takes 5% less damage and generates 25% less threat. In addition, so long as you remain within 15 meters of the guarded player, 50% of all incoming damage from enemy players is transfered back to you."

 

To break it down. In PvE: "While active, the guarded player takes 5% less damage and generates 25% less threat. In addition, so long as you remain within 15 meters."

 

In pvp: 50% of all incoming damage from enemy players is transfered back to the tank, so long as you remain within 15 meters

 

At no point does a healer generate enough threat to exceed a tank's threat ceiling on any single target. Nor do healers come remotely close to the threat generation of classes like the Sentinel which lacks any kind of threat reduction ability.

 

Common mistake, I guarded you so you couldn't pull agro. If an add spawns or is agroed. You as the tank are responsible for picking it up. Otherwise it will go after the healer, no amount of guarding will change that. In simple mechanics. New mob Tank = 0 % threat. Healer casts heal and generates 100 points of threat, 100% threat. Add guard, healer generates 75 points of threat. Tank has 0 points of threat. 75 points of threat is still 100% of all threat on mobs threat table.

 

The guard did nothing! And the Sentinel just pulled agro, you should get on that.

 

Stop using guard as an excuse for poor play and start paying attention. Pick up adds and spread your threat around. We're not in pvp so stop guarding me.

 

/end rant.

 

I'm likely going to make a post in the guide forum. Try and nip this in the butt before the stupid overwhelms me.

 

1. Actually yes a healer can draw a lot of threat. When I heal I do it all the time. NPC's hate when I keep a tank topped off. Don't you want less agro?

2. I only guard a dps when he does superior DPS, otherwise I can hold agro pretty well with Jedi Guardian. The only class I like to tank with because of their mulltiple AOE high threat moves.

3. If a DPS has crappy armor then he will get guard, if their gear is good then healer. Why? Healer needs to be the one to stay alive... so he can heal. If a healer is busy healing himself than he is pretty much not contributing to the group.

 

This all depends on how well a tank and can draw and keep agro. For me myself, and for other people, I judge on the fact on how much other players draw heavy amounts of agro. If the tank could prevent that or pull the agro is what matters.

 

"New mob Tank = 0 % threat. Healer casts heal and generates 100 points of threat, 100% threat. Add guard, healer generates 75 points of threat. Tank has 0 points of threat. 75 points of threat is still 100% of all threat on mobs threat table. "

 

^ LOL that is just wrong, have you ever tanked. How about I write a guide for you showing tanking is done. I don't tank with my powertech in pve and my sith assassin was never full tank spec, but the jedi guardian has enough AOE threat generating moves that I find it easier.

[Eyesmindassassin]

The wording makes it seem as if the range is not 15 meters for PvE. I'd like BioWare to chime in on that since it wasn't resolved in this thread. Either way, I never put Guard on the healer. I think I'm going to start leaving any PuG's where the healer asks for Guard as well. I usually leave when the DPS tunnel vision the Elite or Champion instead of killing the Weaks/Standards/Strongs. Why should I work harder because the DPS are bad? When I'm DPS, I always kill the weakest targets first. Weaks die in 1 hit if it's a crit or 2 otherwise. Bad DPS get no sympathy from me. Edited October 29, 2012 by Eyesmindassassin

[Xenirath]

1. Actually yes a healer can draw a lot of threat. When I heal I do it all the time. NPC's hate when I keep a tank topped off. Don't you want less agro?

.

 

Are you standing 28 meters away from the tank, that helps A LOT. Also what are you using to keep the tank topped off? If you are using dark infusion or a similarly large heal for 1k hp thats a lot of threat that isnt neccessary. Also might wanna make sure you have the reduced aggro skills.

[BogyOne]

I found solution - always put guard on sentinel or marauders! They heal party while in Watchman/Annihilation specc so healer definition applies.

[Darth_Urtani]

Can someone help? When I heal, I almost always pull the badies to me....

[Siorac]

Can someone help? When I heal, I almost always pull the badies to me....

 

Ask the tank to please use some AoE abilities at the start and ask the DPS to please kindly eliminate the normal mobs instead of pounding the elite from the start.

 

Here's what I don't get about guard, why is it that every tank is telling me, a dps sage, that the melee is getting the guard? I can understand how they would want to give the melee a damage reduction in the event that the boss does melee range damage but this isnt always the case. I'm also aware that sents theoretically can do more damage than me.

 

If you're closer than maximum melee range, you only need to generate 110% of the tank's threat to pull aggro off of him. For a ranged DPS, that number is 130%. That's why. Obviously gear should be considered; no use to put Guard on the Recruit Sentinel over the full Campaign Sage. "Burst" classes should be guarded over sustained DPS classes: those Smashes or a Carnage Mara's Ravage can steal aggro quite easily.

[JediNg]

Can someone help? When I heal, I almost always pull the badies to me....

 

Healer threat is spread to all enemies that are 'in combat' with you, whether or not they are targeting you or not.

Tank and dps threat is only directed at the target(s) they are attacking.

 

Sentinels are guarded because they can, in most cases, top the threat table and take aggro from the tank. Has nothing to do with taking less damage. tl;dr DPS are guarded to make the tank's job easier. Usually a sentinel, commando, or gunslinger

[JediNg]

If you're closer than maximum melee range, you only need to generate 110% of the tank's threat to pull aggro off of him. For a ranged DPS, that number is 130%.

 

That only refers to the taunt ability's threat boost, not your threat generation as you go about your dpsing/healing.

[CharleyDanger]

classes like the Sentinel which lacks any kind of threat reduction ability.

 

Sents do have a threat reduction, force camo.

 

Here's what I don't get about guard, why is it that every tank is telling me, a dps sage, that the melee is getting the guard? I can understand how they would want to give the melee a damage reduction in the event that the boss does melee range damage but this isnt always the case. I'm also aware that sents theoretically can do more damage than me.

Perhaps they should consider the possibility that I am asking for guard due to the fact that unless someone els, on a better class, is playing the class to it's full potential, which only has happened a few rare times during my ten months of pugging, I'm expecting to pull aggro.

It's especially annoying on EC since I now have to constanly use cloud mind in an attempt to prevent that I'm getting rushed just as toth is about to jump. And it still happens, quite frequently, so I'm not even sure if cloud mind works on them.

 

Wouldnt it be reasonable that they first look at my gear and ask if I've pulled a lot of aggro in the past? This goes double for SM Operation through GF, where a lot of the group members arent particulary geared. And they still put the guard on the columi sent over the BH/DG Sage. There's been times where I've tanked the Foreman more than the tank(s).

 

Regardless of guard, a good DPS knows how to maximize their DPS while avoiding threat. If you are pulling aggro it is your fault. DPS that can top the chart are fairly common. A DPS that can top the chart while maintaining situation awareness is somewhat rare. The best tanks and the best DPS will all tell you that it is up to the DPS to avoid threat.

Edited October 29, 2012 by CharleyDanger

[Cealog]

At lower levels i will always guard the heal due to the lack of AOE Threat early in the game and the area which the Mobs are spread out is huge so the heals will pull almost every time. Once I hit the 30s I will switch over to the dps that does not have a threat drop like a Dps Powertech/vanguard or Jugg/Guradian. If all have a agro drop i will place guard on the DPS with the highest health. Once i do a few pull i will see if the other dps is pulling off of me, if so i will switch my guard to them.

[Siorac]

That only refers to the taunt ability's threat boost, not your threat generation as you go about your dpsing/healing.

 

No, it's been tested: if you're at 4m or further away, you need to generate 130% threat to pull aggro; if closer than that, 110% is enough. Taunt, indeed, has the same threat modifier depending on range.

[Siorac]

At lower levels i will always guard the heal due to the lack of AOE Threat early in the game and the area which the Mobs are spread out is huge so the heals will pull almost every time. Once I hit the 30s I will switch over to the dps that does not have a threat drop like a Dps Powertech/vanguard or Jugg/Guradian. If all have a agro drop i will place guard on the DPS with the highest health. Once i do a few pull i will see if the other dps is pulling off of me, if so i will switch my guard to them.

 

Guardians/Juggernauts do have a threat dump: Focused Defense/Enraged Defense. It's a costly one, unlike Force Camouflage or Cloud Mind or Surrender but it's still a threat dump.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Siorac

[JediNg]

No, it's been tested: if you're at 4m or further away, you need to generate 130% threat to pull aggro; if closer than that, 110% is enough. Taunt, indeed, has the same threat modifier depending on range.

 

If true, then torparse isn't showing it. My sentinel's threat generation (threat per second, against a dummy) is the same as the DPS. Its only off by like 0.25 dps over 10 mins. So i'm going to have to disagree with you

[SWGEvictee]

How about I write a guide for you showing tanking is done. I don't tank with my powertech in pve and my sith assassin was never full tank spec, but the jedi guardian has enough AOE threat generating moves that I find it easier.

 

Yes please. As someone who is fairly new to tanking and has a 50 sith warrior tank and is working up both a jedi guardian and shadow tanks I would appreciate any and all insight on pve tanking. Specifically what does and doesn't work for guardian and how best to utilize it.

[Siorac]

If true, then torparse isn't showing it. My sentinel's threat generation (threat per second, against a dummy) is the same as the DPS. Its only off by like 0.25 dps over 10 mins. So i'm going to have to disagree with you

 

Umm, what? What does that have to do with anything?

 

If you're not in tank stance: one point of damage = one threat. 1000 damage = 1000 threat.

 

If the tank has 1000 threat on the boss, a DPS who stands closer than max melee range need to generate 1100 threat to pull aggro. A DPS who stands further away than that has to generate 1300 threat. Melee DPS doesn't generate more threat than ranged: they just need less threat to pull aggro than ranged, generally speaking. That is why Taunt works differently in different ranges: it simply gives you the required amount of threat to pull aggro, as well as forcing the mob to attack you for 6 seconds no matter what.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Siorac

[JediNg]

Umm, what? What does that have to do with anything?

 

If you're not in tank stance: one point of damage = one threat. 1000 damage = 1000 threat.

 

If the tank has 1000 threat on the boss, a DPS who stands closer than max melee range need to generate 1100 threat to pull aggro. A DPS who stands further away than that has to generate 1300 threat. Melee DPS doesn't generate more threat than ranged: they just need less threat to pull aggro than ranged, generally speaking.

 

That doesn't follow. What you're suggesting is that the tank has less threat on the boss because there are people at melee range.

 

Edit: are you saying that the threat that dps generate is modified lower because they're at certain ranges? Again, if that is true, it isn't showing up on torparse either and is also not what you just said and what I understood to be true. That is, damage = threat point for point unless in tank stance. so... Unless its as straightforward as it seems and melee dps that are already topped on the threat table need even more threat on the mob to pull it. But that seems unwieldly and counterintuitive

 

Final edit: i stand corrected. That does seem to be how it works. heh.

Edited October 29, 2012 by JediNg

[Ms_Sunlight]

That doesn't follow. What you're suggesting is that the tank has less threat on the boss because there are people at melee range.

 

Edit: are you saying that the threat that dps generate is modified lower because they're at certain ranges? Again, if so that isn't showing up on torparse either and is also not what you just said and what I understood to be true, that is damage = threat point for point unless in tank stance. so...

 

No.

 

If player A has the boss targetting them, and they have 1000 threat, melee player B who is next to the boss has to have 1100 threat in order to make the boss target them. Player C who is several metres away has to have 1300 threat in order to make the boss target them. This is regardless of their roles.

 

A player in tank stance will generate more threat per point of damage, but a DPS who is doing massive burst damage can still outdo that in terms of threat. That is why tanks use taunts to up their threat, and DPS use threat drops to reduce theirs. Healers will almost never pull threat except on mobs that no-one is attacking, with the exception of fights like Bonethrasher where he forgets threat and resets, when a healer who has just done a big single-target heal on someone who got smashed might pull him.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Ms_Sunlight

[Kenlonis]

Good to know. Though I'll have to test the range aspect. I was working with second hand information on the sentinel AC. Haven't had a chance to try one out yet.

 

This bugs me more then Tanks useing Guard on healers...

If you haven't even played a class and don't know what you're talking about don't go around spouting about what they do and don't have

[Xenirath]

That doesn't follow. What you're suggesting is that the tank has less threat on the boss because there are people at melee range.

 

Edit: are you saying that the threat that dps generate is modified lower because they're at certain ranges? Again, if that is true, it isn't showing up on torparse either and is also not what you just said and what I understood to be true. That is, damage = threat point for point unless in tank stance. so... Unless its as straightforward as it seems and melee dps that are already topped on the threat table need even more threat on the mob to pull it. But that seems unwieldly and counterintuitive

 

Final edit: i stand corrected. That does seem to be how it works. heh.

 

Dmg doesnt equal threat, threat is a value seperate of dmg.

 

Dmg increases threat generation, Healing increases threat generation, and high threat abilities increase threat generation. Also threat is accumulated based on proximity to the mob, its the reason you can skip mobs based on distance and the reason why the higher level players can walk through low level mobs without pulling them if they walk quickly enough.

[JediNg]

Dmg doesnt equal threat, threat is a value seperate of dmg.

 

Dmg increases threat generation, Healing increases threat generation, and high threat abilities increase threat generation. Also threat is accumulated based on proximity to the mob, its the reason you can skip mobs based on distance and the reason why the higher level players can walk through low level mobs without pulling them if they walk quickly enough.

 

"Damage = threat" is just the conversion factor. Just as he stated above.

1 point of damage = 1 point of threat

1000 points of damage = 1000 points of threat.

I don't know the conversion for healing.

[Siorac]

That doesn't follow. What you're suggesting is that the tank has less threat on the boss because there are people at melee range.

 

Edit: are you saying that the threat that dps generate is modified lower because they're at certain ranges? Again, if that is true, it isn't showing up on torparse either and is also not what you just said and what I understood to be true. That is, damage = threat point for point unless in tank stance. so... Unless its as straightforward as it seems and melee dps that are already topped on the threat table need even more threat on the mob to pull it. But that seems unwieldly and counterintuitive

 

It's really, really, really simple, I don't know what's causing your confusion.

 

The example: a tank has 1000 threat on a mob. Anyone standing closer than 4 meters to the mob has to generate 1100 threat to pull the mob. Anyone further than 4 meters need to generate 1300 threat. In practice, this means that ranged DPS has to do more damage than melee DPS in order to pull aggro.

 

And no, other people don't modify the tank's threat in any way: range modifies the amount of threat (and therefore the amount of damage) necessary to pull aggro from the tank.

 

EDIT: heals generate 50% threat of their value but that threat is split among all mobs present, unlike the threat generated by damage.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Siorac

[JediNg]

It's really, really, really simple, I don't know what's causing your confusion.

 

The example: a tank has 1000 threat on a mob. Anyone standing closer than 4 meters to the mob has to generate 1100 threat to pull the mob. Anyone further than 4 meters need to generate 1300 threat. In practice, this means that ranged DPS has to do more damage than melee DPS in order to pull aggro.

 

And no, other people don't modify the tank's threat in any way: range modifies the amount of threat (and therefore the amount of damage) necessary to pull aggro from the tank.

 

 

re-reread pls

[Siorac]

re-reread pls

 

At this point I have to assume you don't speak English.

 

EDIT: or I just can't keep up with your constant editing

Edited October 29, 2012 by Siorac

[JediNg]

EDIT: or I just can't keep up with your constant editing

lol, my apologies