Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[TrixxieTriss]

your list is wrong. let's say the player rating scale is 1-10, where 10 is the best and 1 is the worst. a pug team of 8-10 will not only defeat two premades composed of 5s-8s, they will utterly destroy them, and they will do so regardless of the role/AC composition. comms, class balance, and role composition cannot surmount a clear skill gap.

 

now, if you want to say the premades' average skill is 8 and they're playing pugs with an average of 9, then yes, better communication and team composition will sway the match almost every time. but look at what you're comparing? the difference between 8 and 9! here's an example of why a team of good pugs, even if they're all dps, will wreck a team of lesser players with 2 heals and a tank: the good players will pick someone to use as a focus target, and they'll attack whatever he's attacking. they don't need voice comms to tell themselves to do this. they don't even need to mention it in ops chat, because good players do that all the time. it doesn't take but 2 or 3 of them on the same target while 1 or 2 get on the other healer and the entire enemy will be cleared from the node before the first dead enemy can fly back.

 

lesson: comms matter very little to players when playing against those they are clearly better than. team composition (role and AC) matter only slightly more. for the premade to beat the pug, they need to be at least close to the pug in average team skill.

 

my point is this: everything is secondary to skill. the major matchmaking issue that premades present is that you don't often get a 10 who groups with a 5. more often it's 1s and 2s with maybe a 5. or 5s and 6s with 7s. players tend to seek out other players of similar skill or the best they can find to grp with. what this means is a premade is problematic because it has FOUR ppl ranging from 1-5 on the same team every time. that's a huge anchor for the other 4 teammates, and it's highly unlikely that the other 4 teammates are 8s 9s or 10s. the inverse is also true. you end up with mismatched teams on a skill level. unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot BW can do about that w/o killing queues. that leaves them the option of fixing role and faction balance issues.

 

This is a pretty good summery. I think all your points on Premades are spot on. Most premades are low to medium skilled players. Especially these days as most of the other hardcore papers have left the game and most of us remaining pvpers are playing more solo queue matches.

(Fox, this next part isn't directed at you, it's my own thoughts on why I support your comments and also why I think Premades for newbies are good)

My argument for people to form Premades is to help those lower - medium skilled players get better against better solo pug players. Especially if you find you are constantly up against groups of good pug players that are decimating you. It's hard to learn quickly by getting Globaled every respawn, it just becomes a grind to get good. (Most rep players would understand this as they are often dominated by better imp players)

By playing in a premade, not even on voice, with similarly skilled players, they may have a chance to even the playing field if the pug team only has a few higher skilled players. Of course if the opposition is similarly skilled or even lower, then they'll have a slight advantage. But this is not really any different when good pvpers seem to pop together in pug solo queues, basically a defacto, unplanned premade. They'll always have an advantage over the other team, even if the other team is two medium skilled Premades on voice.

If all things were equal, which they aren't and never will be, then everyone would be at a similar skill level and be able to learn on the fly. This is obviously not the case. Premades can help to learn some basics while you have some support. They won't make you an elite pvper and if you are only able to kill people or do well if you're in a premade, the you'll stay at that lvl forever.

Solo playing does make you a more independent player. You learn more advanced tactics to stay alive and how to stay on target. But even playing solo you are still part of a team, which means playing as a team member and not being selfish by running off and leaving nodes unguarded, chasing people to be a dps hero or if your a stealth, running from node to node to ninja cap (for yourself) and not responding to inc calls for help and letting your team mates die just so you can be a ninja hero.

What Premades can do is teach team work. When you know how to play as a team and are also a good player, you add so much more to your pug team than just being the best solo player in DPS. You also learn a bit more situational awareness, ie, if there are 5 of us vs 1, where are the rest of them.

Both forms of the game have there place and teach different skills in PVP. Neither form is perfect by itself. Playing both types makes you an overall better pvper.

Duelling out side of matches is also a way to get better. It can teach you what other classes can do and how to counter them if you find yourself in a 1v1 or even 1v2 situation. Even practicing rotations and priority abilities on the dummies between matches can help. Everything helps to make you a better pvper.

I do think highly skilled players who form Premades to rofl stomp pugs is a real trollish, douche bag thing to do. But this is an online game, the web is full of these people, especially in games. They will always find ways to get their jollies by harassing people. People shouldnt let these tools upset them or if they do, don't give them any indication that they are. When you do, they win, they get what they want, you being upset. And this is basically what this whole thread is about. People are upset that the troll Premades are ruining their matches, which they are. But everyone QQing about it and raging at each other is only fueling their desires to keep doing it. Instead of QQing about it, look at ways to work around it. Forming your own Premades is one such work around.

[Klaus]

I would suggest going to a RP server to PvP, but even there there are premades.

 

The reason why people choose RP Servers for PvP Guilds/Premades is because they know they'd get owned if they Premaded on a PvP Server, so they go to a RP Server because there aren't as much PvP Guilds there, so it's just easy pickings.

Playing on a PVP server doesnt make u an elite PVP-er. On the RP server u can find diversity: RP guilds. PVP guilds, PVE guilds, social guilds. I know plenty of players from my RP server( Progentor) that are in top 20 ranked. Sometimes is frustrating runing against premads but then again u can also organize a premade and u can always challange to a duel a premade member

[VixenRawR]

Playing on a PVP server doesnt make u an elite PVP-er. On the RP server u can find diversity: RP guilds. PVP guilds, PVE guilds, social guilds. I know plenty of players from my RP server( Progentor) that are in top 20 ranked. Sometimes is frustrating runing against premads but then again u can also organize a premade and u can always challange to a duel a premade member

 

Ranked is a pretty far reach at being a good pvper. I've seen some of the topped ranked players in ranked get trashed in normal warzones. They may not even be good outside of their one class or team composition. Between win trading, que syncing and of course the randon troll in solo ranked who just afk's so their friends win on other team. Yes I am sure there are legitimate high rank players I just don't put much stock into them. See people go "oh no this person we are vs'ing is soooo good" and they really aren't. Premades just know how to focus better and work as a team so a lot of times that is a huge factor in one player seeming "really" good. Duels are okay but it only stretched into class limitations if players are somewhat equally skilled. Always get the cocky op who wants to 1 v 1 but somehow they are silent when on their mara or sniper.

 

Anyways there are good and bad players and I don't put much stock in rating or fleet chat. I will see in a warzone. It's easy to tell someone knows how to play even when their team is wining or losing. Obviously there is a huge balance between team composition, classes, and actual player skill and usually player skill can only carry so much of their team. But still you can tell when facing them. Usually we trash talk each other in the warzone then make up afterwards some good people I meet in a game that starts with an arguement xD

Edited September 5, 2016 by VixenRawR

[Kyuuu]

The day BW ,makes solo q against only solo q's and group again group only is day hell freeze over, which about as likely to happen as them balancing pvp and pve with pve mechanics pve and pvp mechanics for pvp.

 

Trying to balance pvp and pve using same mechanics is like trying to make a square block fit threw a circle block of same size which is futile.

 

Besides there to busy trying find better ways to trick the stupid people that spend 100$ each month on Cartel packs to buy more to get less and less, to care about balancing or fixing things.

[-Bob-]

The day BW ,makes solo q against only solo q's and group again group only is day hell freeze over.

 

So, i can create a 4 man comp and Que us as Solo Ranked and get matched with a 4 man pug??

Thats neat

[Kyuuu]

Which part of SOLO VS SOLO and GROUP VS GROUP only is the part you dont get?

 

If you q for SOLO you only get put against SOLO and if you in GROUP you only get put against a GROUP if you put group together to q solo you are no long a group....

 

Talking mostly about none ranked too, ranked is irreverent to alot people

[Icykill_]

Playing on a PVP server doesnt make u an elite PVP-er. On the RP server u can find diversity: RP guilds. PVP guilds, PVE guilds, social guilds. I know plenty of players from my RP server( Progentor) that are in top 20 ranked. Sometimes is frustrating runing against premads but then again u can also organize a premade and u can always challange to a duel a premade member

 

There is no such thing as a pvp, pve or rp server anymore. All servers are equal in setup.

 

FYI, nice necro

Edited September 6, 2016 by Icykill_

[VixenRawR]

There is no such thing as a pvp, pve or rp server anymore. All servers are equal in setup.

 

FYI, nice necro

 

Yeah but the ghost of RP servers still linger.

 

Like harbingers pub pvpers, they have to RP about wining warzones to feel good between pops. =D I am kidding though.

 

But yah, like she said, all servers do it all now.

[Saikochoro]

I've always wanted to form a double premade of operatives that do nothing but spam sleep dart on people.

[foxmob]

I've always wanted to form a double premade of operatives that do nothing but spam sleep dart on people.

 

I'm sure it's on youtube or twitch somewhere. there are certainly enough of the all op and all stealth vids.

[Janglor]

This thread alone is a great example of the level of pure autism in this community. Its an MMO. The point is to group up and play with other people. If you dont like losing to premades, find some friends and make a better one.

[VixenRawR]

This thread alone is a great example of the level of pure autism in this community. Its an MMO. The point is to group up and play with other people. If you dont like losing to premades, find some friends and make a better one.

 

I haven't been able to purchase friends off the CM yet. =/

[Mutablast]

I find i do worse when i form a premade with my guild

[ThrakhathSpawn]

I'm finding lots of my "teammates" when I solo que are leaving matches when they die, even in winning/winnable WZ's. Its very frustrating. I'm solo que-ing less and less, at least if I invite people standing in the PVP area of fleet, that leaves four that won't bail from the WZ. It also allows a little class balance. Spawning into an arena as a solo healer, with three other healers on your team is not an ideal experience.

[AlCorazon]

This thread alone is a great example of the level of pure autism in this community. Its an MMO. The point is to group up and play with other people. If you dont like losing to premades, find some friends and make a better one.

 

bla bla bla

[TheLunarTick]

I think this is one of those situations where you have to weigh the positives and negatives. Splitting up groups isn't going to help anything and might actually create more problems than it solves. I mean, if four friends on voice chat are cueing at the same time I'd rather they all end up on the same team. I understand that people get frustrated when there's a good team out there but I think that breaking up their ability to group would just encourage them to resort to other means to give themselves an advantage. Instead of working together as a team the odd man out that ends up on your team might still be more interested in helping his buddies kill you than helping you kill his buddies... you know?

[Magira]

In Guild Wars 2, there is an official poll from Arenanet to the PVP. Question: Will the next season be only SOLO / DUO? Result after 4 days: 79% for this. Edited October 14, 2016 by Magira

[CorellianWannabe]

I think this is one of those situations where you have to weigh the positives and negatives. Splitting up groups isn't going to help anything and might actually create more problems than it solves. I mean, if four friends on voice chat are cueing at the same time I'd rather they all end up on the same team. I understand that people get frustrated when there's a good team out there but I think that breaking up their ability to group would just encourage them to resort to other means to give themselves an advantage. Instead of working together as a team the odd man out that ends up on your team might still be more interested in helping his buddies kill you than helping you kill his buddies... you know?

 

Isn't that still pvp, just on another level?

[Icykill_]

Back in 2012 we successfully made it to the misty mountains and back when we had our trusty friends.. And we're off again on the adventure to Mordor without our our trusted group of friends this time.. oh crap.. I'm dead.. stupid Balrock got me..

 

Sorry but this topic and conversation has been whipped to death. Points from both sides of the argument can be found in this thread.

Not point having more arguments again. If you want to know if they ruin it or not, read the thread.

[t-darko]

Dead thread walking

At this stage anyone, and that's ANYONE, that appears in a wz, makes it possible for the rest of us to do what want . . .

only question are they gonna come and do the obligatory event stuff or are the gonna enrich our player pool . . .

and anyone that think our player pool is endless, probably is accompanied by the pink elephant . . .

 

Edited October 16, 2016 by t-darko

[kissingaiur]

You guys think it's bad for people who don't have premades but what about players who consistently run in premades? You every think of the flip side? I constantly run with a premade. This could be between 2-4 people who are my friends and just people randomly whispering me for an invite. I don't care who it is, I just play the game and I'm a healer so I run majority of the time in a group. I am not a tryhard I just love playing the game with my friends, that's it.

 

What do I get for it? I get so much malicious hate and my only crime is i'm a above average player who runs in a group. This isn't even the little stuff like "oh your bad cuz premade", it's legit bannable, offensive, toxic, profanity that is being yelled and/or whispered to me at a daily bases. I have done nothing to these people other then enter the same warzone with them. In my honest opinion, it's threads like these which promote this kind toxic behavior. It tells the community that there is something completely wrong with players who queue consistently with friends or in a group which is absolutely ridiculous.

 

Repeat after me. There is nothing wrong with queuing with a friend or a group in an MMO game. ZERO. ZIP.

 

These people in a group have literally nothing that you can't have yourself.

Complain they must have voice chat? Get voice chat.

Complain they are a group of 4? Make friends and group with 4 people.

Complain they are too good or too organize? Practice, get good and get organized.

 

Honestly, every anti-premade excuse out there is just another player who is unwilling to make friends and run as a group. I'm sorry but that is the absolute honest truth.

Edited October 16, 2016 by kissingaiur

[SVTCarnage]

Here is a tip for dps,

 

1. Go into preferrences (no really do it).

2. Keybinds

3. Targets or Targeting, whatever.

4. Keybind Set Focus Target

5. Keybind Assist Focus Target's Target

 

Now, solo q regs. Find a competent dps, or just pick one. Set focus target on that player. Now if your not guarding a node, and or they aren't you can stack on this person and literally sync your dps together by pressing Acquire Focus Targets Target.

 

= 2 man premade and you Q'd solo.

[snave]

You guys think it's bad for people who don't have premades but what about players who consistently run in premades? You every think of the flip side? I constantly run with a premade. This could be between 2-4 people who are my friends and just people randomly whispering me for an invite. I don't care who it is, I just play the game and I'm a healer so I run majority of the time in a group. I am not a tryhard I just love playing the game with my friends, that's it.

 

What do I get for it? I get so much malicious hate and my only crime is i'm a above average player who runs in a group. This isn't even the little stuff like "oh your bad cuz premade", it's legit bannable, offensive, toxic, profanity that is being yelled and/or whispered to me at a daily bases. I have done nothing to these people other then enter the same warzone with them. In my honest opinion, it's threads like these which promote this kind toxic behavior. It tells the community that there is something completely wrong with players who queue consistently with friends or in a group which is absolutely ridiculous.

 

Repeat after me. There is nothing wrong with queuing with a friend or a group in an MMO game. ZERO. ZIP.

 

These people in a group have literally nothing that you can't have yourself.

Complain they must have voice chat? Get voice chat.

Complain they are a group of 4? Make friends and group with 4 people.

Complain they are too good or too organize? Practice, get good and get organized.

 

Honestly, every anti-premade excuse out there is just another player who is unwilling to make friends and run as a group. I'm sorry but that is the absolute honest truth.

 

What kind of a loser queues in premades all the time!

 

And imagine them streaming it too - jeez hottie you're such a loser!

 

On a related note I've seen a pretty sharp increase in hostility towards guilds that tend to group together over the last few months, even when myself or other members are queued solo now people still come up with the same premade loser comments. Not sure what caused the increase, we don't tend to smack talk to pugs in games unless provoked but there's pretty much constant abuse now.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Not sure what caused the increase,

 

Do you really believe there would be discussions here in THE SWTOR forum and no-one in the whole RL world would be reading it ?

 

What has happened is - in my opinionb - exactly the same as the formation of FOTMs : People talk about things - readers get it. And act according to what they read.

[snave]

Do you really believe there would be discussions here in THE SWTOR forum and no-one in the whole RL world would be reading it ?

 

What has happened is - in my opinionb - exactly the same as the formation of FOTMs : People talk about things - readers get it. And act according to what they read.

 

These forums are hardly popular, barely any posts per day and historically speaking there's always been some post about premade vs pugs.

 

What's strange is now there are less premades in the queue, less players reading the forums and more people angry about premades.