Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[DarkBudShankers]

Fair enough. I wasn't aware that op groups couldn't queue.

 

Also u have to be an OP player , if u r not good is hard making group with others. Try to be geared and augmented, get all datacrons buff, reach 65 and play all classes u can learn all the defensive abilities to defeat them.

[Ruhun]

Also u have to be an OP player , if u r not good is hard making group with others. Try to be geared and augmented, get all datacrons buff, reach 65 and play all classes u can learn all the defensive abilities to defeat them.

 

I already have that fam.

[Greezt]

Rez all the threads!

[Gray]

Quit moaning already and face the fact that you got outplayed by a group of superior players. Sure it's annoying with these try hard setups but it dosn't guarantee them a win.

 

This rage against premades has become an epidemic, I think the less experienced players just want to find something to blame on rather then themself.

 

I'm facing these try hard premades on a daily basis, it's no problem at least in my reallity but I play every day more or less and my friends too. (#No-Life)

 

Premades dosn't win warzones, good players do.

[Razortron]

Welcome to online gaming where friends play online games with each other.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Welcome to online gaming where friends play online games with each other.

 

I do know why I'm going back to the offline world one day ...

[Razortron]

Meh i blame those Greased Hutts for this outrage they have completely ruined my gaming experience.

[josephxp]

Quit moaning already and face the fact that you got outplayed by a group of superior players. Sure it's annoying with these try hard setups but it dosn't guarantee them a win.

 

This rage against premades has become an epidemic, I think the less experienced players just want to find something to blame on rather then themself.

 

I'm facing these try hard premades on a daily basis, it's no problem at least in my reallity but I play every day more or less and my friends too. (#No-Life)

 

Premades dosn't win warzones, good players do.

 

Well good players do win warzones but many premades are made of 4 or 8 good players. Now have a premade team of 8 good players vs a team with 3-4 good players and people with no idea what they are doing.

 

I'm always in that 3-4 player bracket where i have been in warzones were i am the only one in full pvp gear, augmented at least half 208 pvp gear or all. The reason for defeat come down to 3 things, 1 lack of communication on your end because your team is pugs with 0 team speak, 2 inadequate skills and gear (not full 2018 expertise), 3 your team of pugs is full 8 dps and you are facing a team with 2 heals 2 tanks and 4 dps.

 

So ya being a premade doesn't auto win the game, but it sure as hell does 95% of the time if the premade is made of all good experienced players. especially when your full 8 dps team of pugs vs a balanced premade.

[foxmob]

I'm always in that 3-4 player bracket where i have been in warzones were i am the only one in full pvp gear, augmented at least half 208 pvp gear or all. The reason for defeat come down to 3 things, 1 lack of communication on your end because your team is pugs with 0 team speak, 2 inadequate skills and gear (not full 2018 expertise), 3 your team of pugs is full 8 dps and you are facing a team with 2 heals 2 tanks and 4 dps.

 

your list is wrong. let's say the player rating scale is 1-10, where 10 is the best and 1 is the worst. a pug team of 8-10 will not only defeat two premades composed of 5s-8s, they will utterly destroy them, and they will do so regardless of the role/AC composition. comms, class balance, and role composition cannot surmount a clear skill gap.

 

now, if you want to say the premades' average skill is 8 and they're playing pugs with an average of 9, then yes, better communication and team composition will sway the match almost every time. but look at what you're comparing? the difference between 8 and 9! here's an example of why a team of good pugs, even if they're all dps, will wreck a team of lesser players with 2 heals and a tank: the good players will pick someone to use as a focus target, and they'll attack whatever he's attacking. they don't need voice comms to tell themselves to do this. they don't even need to mention it in ops chat, because good players do that all the time. it doesn't take but 2 or 3 of them on the same target while 1 or 2 get on the other healer and the entire enemy will be cleared from the node before the first dead enemy can fly back.

 

lesson: comms matter very little to players when playing against those they are clearly better than. team composition (role and AC) matter only slightly more. for the premade to beat the pug, they need to be at least close to the pug in average team skill.

 

my point is this: everything is secondary to skill. the major matchmaking issue that premades present is that you don't often get a 10 who groups with a 5. more often it's 1s and 2s with maybe a 5. or 5s and 6s with 7s. players tend to seek out other players of similar skill or the best they can find to grp with. what this means is a premade is problematic because it has FOUR ppl ranging from 1-5 on the same team every time. that's a huge anchor for the other 4 teammates, and it's highly unlikely that the other 4 teammates are 8s 9s or 10s. the inverse is also true. you end up with mismatched teams on a skill level. unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot BW can do about that w/o killing queues. that leaves them the option of fixing role and faction balance issues.

[Floplag]

your list is wrong. let's say the player rating scale is 1-10, where 10 is the best and 1 is the worst. a pug team of 8-10 will not only defeat two premades composed of 5s-8s, they will utterly destroy them, and they will do so regardless of the role/AC composition. comms, class balance, and role composition cannot surmount a clear skill gap.

 

now, if you want to say the premades' average skill is 8 and they're playing pugs with an average of 9, then yes, better communication and team composition will sway the match almost every time. but look at what you're comparing? the difference between 8 and 9! here's an example of why a team of good pugs, even if they're all dps, will wreck a team of lesser players with 2 heals and a tank: the good players will pick someone to use as a focus target, and they'll attack whatever he's attacking. they don't need voice comms to tell themselves to do this. they don't even need to mention it in ops chat, because good players do that all the time. it doesn't take but 2 or 3 of them on the same target while 1 or 2 get on the other healer and the entire enemy will be cleared from the node before the first dead enemy can fly back.

 

lesson: comms matter very little to players when playing against those they are clearly better than. team composition (role and AC) matter only slightly more. for the premade to beat the pug, they need to be at least close to the pug in average team skill.

 

my point is this: everything is secondary to skill. the major matchmaking issue that premades present is that you don't often get a 10 who groups with a 5. more often it's 1s and 2s with maybe a 5. or 5s and 6s with 7s. players tend to seek out other players of similar skill or the best they can find to grp with. what this means is a premade is problematic because it has FOUR ppl ranging from 1-5 on the same team every time. that's a huge anchor for the other 4 teammates, and it's highly unlikely that the other 4 teammates are 8s 9s or 10s. the inverse is also true. you end up with mismatched teams on a skill level. unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot BW can do about that w/o killing queues. that leaves them the option of fixing role and faction balance issues.

 

Everything is secondary to skill, that is 100% true, however, a premade with comms, especially a trinity, can elevate the play of a group of players of relatively even skill above their peers. It can even make a group of slightly inferior players stronger than those who they would otherwise lose to do the enhanced composition, coordination and communication.

 

To use your scale its not going to make a bunch of 2s beat a group of 8s... but it would certainly give a group of 6s or 7s a shot against those 8s if they 8s were not grouped in kind.

 

We can rationalize or argue this all day long, it doesnt matter. Its part of the game and it is the defacto standard. Even a staunch solo player like myself finds himself wondering what the point of solo queue even is anymore. Im rarely if ever playing a match that doesnt have groups on it anymore, queueing solo is literally gimping myself at this point.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Floplag

[TrixxieTriss]

Id actually encourage any new pvpers to group. Most are learning and it helps if they learn together, especially if they're in a guild of friends. If they have Comms, then even better. They can discuss what works, offer advice and tactics. It's pretty hard to do this typing and learning how to play classes and maps for the first time.

Of course these guys will have an advantage over non grouped newbies, but the more that group, the better it is for PVP in the long run because the player quality should rise. It's only when they get much better and feel the need to run Premades to rofl stomp newbies that this becomes a problem. If they haven't learned to play without a group or Comms then they'll never be good players and solo good players will always dominate them.

Premades are part of the game structure, they have been since launch. This is an old debate and arguement, it's nothing new and will continue. "If" anything was ever going to be done by the Devs, it would have been done years ago. So there is no point getting agro about it.

Sure we can discuss the issue philosophically and dream up what the Devs could do, as long as we all realise that it is wishful thinking and it will never, ever happen.

Or we can discuss how we as players can deal with it. My suggestions and lots of others is to form your own Premades. You don't need Comms or even be in the same guild. I played a few matches yesterday with a 4 man premade, with Comms on my team. Let me tell you it was no help what so ever. If anything it was detrimental because it removed the chance that one of those spots could have been filled with a couple of good players.

Edited July 5, 2016 by TrixxieTriss

[Greezt]

I wouldn't recommend new players group. Once you know how to play objectives and sutvive alone, then (if you fele like it) group up, but grouping as a new players is a mistake in my opinion.

 

Nothing teaches you to play better than facing different classes solo. You learn their DCDs, buffs and debuffs. You learn which of your DCDs work best against each of their abilities, and you learn when you need to avoid them.

 

Grouping as a new player guarantees that you'll be paying less attention to these things. Why should you, when you've got 2-3 friends covering you? Even if you're not in a trinity group, having a couple of dps with you all the time guarantees that you need to work less to achieve a kill.

 

Of course, if you only intend to play grouped, all of this is irrelevant. If you wish to understand PvP better, though, I'd say solo is the way to go. Once you can trust yourself to make the right calls, your premade will benefit more from you too.

[TrixxieTriss]

I wouldn't recommend new players group. Once you know how to play objectives and sutvive alone, then (if you fele like it) group up, but grouping as a new players is a mistake in my opinion.

 

Nothing teaches you to play better than facing different classes solo. You learn their DCDs, buffs and debuffs. You learn which of your DCDs work best against each of their abilities, and you learn when you need to avoid them.

 

Grouping as a new player guarantees that you'll be paying less attention to these things. Why should you, when you've got 2-3 friends covering you? Even if you're not in a trinity group, having a couple of dps with you all the time guarantees that you need to work less to achieve a kill.

 

Of course, if you only intend to play grouped, all of this is irrelevant. If you wish to understand PvP better, though, I'd say solo is the way to go. Once you can trust yourself to make the right calls, your premade will benefit more from you too.

 

Except if they are getting Globaled constantly, which can be demoralising for some people. At least grouped they can talk.

Or, if they have a pvper in the group who can help them learn. I don't use Comms any more for personal reasons, but in the past is used to group with newbies to help them learn.

You also don't need a trinity group. Unless you are a healer trying to learn for the first time. Having a tank grouped with you can really help while you learn to heal and possibly a DPS to help keep them at bay.

I rarely see any trinity groups, unless they are a troll group of good players just out to torture noobs. Most Premades are just groups of friends who want to play together. Or when you get to 65, pvpers who want pvpers on their team for once and not a bunch of noobs.

There are only two types of Premades I am concerned about or annoy me. The premade with all the same class or a 3-4 man healer premade. Although those healer Premades seem to have diminished since they nerfed Sorc heals a fraction. Seems people can only play a class if they are OP.

 

Edit : if you can make the right calls solo, you don't even need voice chat if you go premade. Most people don't realise this and just assume ever premade they see is on voice. Plus if you can make the right calls solo and are better than those premade players, you only ever need to run a premade if you are against other good Premades, you want to play with friends or you just want to guarentee you'll actually get some pvpers on your team for once

Edited July 5, 2016 by TrixxieTriss

[Greezt]

Except if they are getting Globaled constantly, which can be demoralising for some people. At least grouped they can talk.

Or, if they have a pvper in the group who can help them learn. I don't use Comms any more for personal reasons, but in the past is used to group with newbies to help them learn.

You also don't need a trinity group. Unless you are a healer trying to learn for the first time. Having a tank grouped with you can really help while you learn to heal and possibly a DPS to help keep them at bay.

I rarely see any trinity groups, unless they are a troll group of good players just out to torture noobs. Most Premades are just groups of friends who want to play together. Or when you get to 65, pvpers who want pvpers on their team for once and not a bunch of noobs.

There are only two types of Premades I am concerned about or annoy me. The premade with all the same class or a 3-4 man healer premade. Although those healer Premades seem to have diminished since they nerfed Sorc heals a fraction. Seems people can only play a class if they are OP.

 

Edit : if you can make the right calls solo, you don't even need voice chat if you go premade. Most people don't realise this and just assume ever premade they see is on voice. Plus if you can make the right calls solo and are better than those premade players, you only ever need to run a premade if you are against other good Premades, you want to play with friends or you just want to guarentee you'll actually get some pvpers on your team for once

 

You don't constantly get globaled in lowbies. Sometimes premades are seen there, but they're not too common. There's no doubt that while you improve your teamwork skills playing with a premade, you lose a chance to improve your solo skills. Relying on other people from the beginning is equivalent to using a crutch to learn to walk - you'll walk well with the crutch, but be reliant on it. If you will ever want to walk without it, you will need to start learning again, from near the beginning.

 

I wasn't talking trinity. Like I said, having four coordinated DPS will do wonders to your survivability. It reduces your need to look out for yourself - for precisely the reasons you mentioned. If all your friend are focusing fire, or swapping to whoever is targeting you, you'll have less time and need to learn how and when to cycle your cooldowns, stun and LoS. What you get is dps who think they're tanks.

 

If you only run premades, that's fine - you don't need to know how to fight solo. If you run solo sometines, you'd better know what to do alone, too.

[TrixxieTriss]

You don't constantly get globaled in lowbies. Sometimes premades are seen there, but they're not too common. There's no doubt that while you improve your teamwork skills playing with a premade, you lose a chance to improve your solo skills. Relying on other people from the beginning is equivalent to using a crutch to learn to walk - you'll walk well with the crutch, but be reliant on it. If you will ever want to walk without it, you will need to start learning again, from near the beginning.

 

I wasn't talking trinity. Like I said, having four coordinated DPS will do wonders to your survivability. It reduces your need to look out for yourself - for precisely the reasons you mentioned. If all your friend are focusing fire, or swapping to whoever is targeting you, you'll have less time and need to learn how and when to cycle your cooldowns, stun and LoS. What you get is dps who think they're tanks.

 

If you only run premades, that's fine - you don't need to know how to fight solo. If you run solo sometines, you'd better know what to do alone, too.

 

I'm saying only play in a Premades, playing solo is fine too. You can't always form Premades anyway. I'm just suggesting that they should try playing in Premades too.

[foxmob]

You don't constantly get globaled in lowbies.

 

lowbies is absolutely irrelevant. way too many abilities and utilities are missing. it won't help you in the least for 65s.

 

mids is another story. the new skills level off in the 40s. and between 56-65, you're only talking about what? 1 ability and 1 utility? crazy different in lows.

 

ex. in lowbie on a merc, you can kite. you have to hard cast tracer, don't have priming shot, cannot unload on the move, no enet. all you have is cryo (stun), punt and HO. ops will eat you alive. veng juggs in their 30s are leaping to you with CC immunity. it takes 5 tracers to get 5 stacks of tracer lock -- that's 5 hard casts! I'm not trying to say woah is the merc. I'm just sayin...the things you have to do and what you can do in lowbie look nothing like what you will need to do at 65. and your opponents will have similar issues.

 

I would skip lowbie completely until ~30. it's a pure sh^tshow. it only feels "easier" b/c it's less balanced, and good players don't camp the bracket like so many -- ahem -- weak players do.

[Greezt]

lowbies is absolutely irrelevant. way too many abilities and utilities are missing. it won't help you in the least for 65s.

 

mids is another story. the new skills level off in the 40s. and between 56-65, you're only talking about what? 1 ability and 1 utility? crazy different in lows.

 

ex. in lowbie on a merc, you can kite. you have to hard cast tracer, don't have priming shot, cannot unload on the move, no enet. all you have is cryo (stun), punt and HO. ops will eat you alive. veng juggs in their 30s are leaping to you with CC immunity. it takes 5 tracers to get 5 stacks of tracer lock -- that's 5 hard casts! I'm not trying to say woah is the merc. I'm just sayin...the things you have to do and what you can do in lowbie look nothing like what you will need to do at 65. and your opponents will have similar issues.

 

I would skip lowbie completely until ~30. it's a pure sh^tshow. it only feels "easier" b/c it's less balanced, and good players don't camp the bracket like so many -- ahem -- weak players do.

 

Fair enough. I meant sub-65 PvP, not only lowbies. I guess I should've been more clear. However, I feel like my point still stands. If you start out by grouping, you're missing out on learning a lot about differend defensive and offensive mechanics.

[Floplag]

Fair enough. I meant sub-65 PvP, not only lowbies. I guess I should've been more clear. However, I feel like my point still stands. If you start out by grouping, you're missing out on learning a lot about differend defensive and offensive mechanics.

 

This is a point ive been trying to make for a long time that noone has yet commented on logically.

 

Those who only group, do not know their class as well as those who also play solo, period.

 

Grouping allows you to play in a far more careless and lackadaisical manner when matched with pugs or lesser competition. It does not force you to learn your class better and improve, in fact quite the opposite is true.

 

This is true regardless of level.

 

Regardless grouping isnt the problem, confusing it with skill is.

[Clone_Enforcer]

Tell me something I don't know.

[foxmob]

Fair enough. I meant sub-65 PvP, not only lowbies. I guess I should've been more clear. However, I feel like my point still stands. If you start out by grouping, you're missing out on learning a lot about differend defensive and offensive mechanics.

 

you're better off dueling than solo queuing. mind you, I almost always solo queue. but that's a different game. learning how to run around regs as a solo player only makes you a better solo player. playing with a team is a different game. for example, when I would solo heal in regs, I had to kite. in fact, it was a little game I'd play where I'd try to get one dps to chase me too far or too long and I'd kill him in heal spec (obv only works on ACs w/o off heals). and that did teach me how to kite 1v1 (or duel). however, when I played ranked 8s, the playstyle was completely different. I would move to a spot my tank wanted me, then he would push my harasser off a cliff or awe him. I would take, in the modern era, different utilities entirely because in a grp, I have a guard and dps that can reliably peel for me, so I'm going to play a more stationary game. but tbh, I learned more about this game talking to better players in gchat and voice.

 

one thing's for sure: "go make a group yourself" is a horrible idea for overall balance. but I don't think go solo queue to "learn your class" or to "learn someone else's class" is much better. if you want to know what other ACs/specs do, then roll that class yourself and/or talk to ppl who do (also read the guides for those other classes). once you have some semblance of an idea what they have in their arsenal, duel them. trying to do that as a solo in a randomly composed 8v8 is nonsense.

Edited July 5, 2016 by foxmob

[Greezt]

you're better off dueling than solo queuing. mind you, I almost always solo queue. but that's a different game. learning how to run around regs as a solo player only makes you a better solo player. playing with a team is a different game. for example, when I would solo heal in regs, I had to kite. in fact, it was a little game I'd play where I'd try to get one dps to chase me too far or too long and I'd kill him in heal spec (obv only works on ACs w/o off heals). and that did teach me how to kite 1v1 (or duel). however, when I played ranked 8s, the playstyle was completely different. I would move to a spot my tank wanted me, then he would push my harasser off a cliff or awe him. I would take, in the modern era, different utilities entirely because in a grp, I have a guard and dps that can reliably peel for me, so I'm going to play a more stationary game. but tbh, I learned more about this game talking to better players in gchat and voice.

 

one thing's for sure: "go make a group yourself" is a horrible idea for overall balance. but I don't think go solo queue to "learn your class" or to "learn someone else's class" is much better. if you want to know what other ACs/specs do, then roll that class yourself and/or talk to ppl who do (also read the guides for those other classes). once you have some semblance of an idea what they have in their arsenal, duel them. trying to do that as a solo in a randomly composed 8v8 is nonsense.

 

Dueling is nothing like warzones. Rolling different classes is a good way to go if you have time, but not everyone has the tine and inclination to roll through all the ACs. Not even through all the relevant ones (which are still quite a lot). People who come to PvP through PvE (most people) already know their class, the problem is other classes.

 

In warzones, going solo you learn how to kite, LoS etc., in addition to learning which attacks work vs. which DCDs, and vice versa. You also develop awareness you don't need with a premade - when you have people you trust guarding, for example, you don't worry about offnodes. Someone will call for sure. The fact that warzones are randomly composed matters how? You'll learn how to deal with the popular classes much quicker that way, since they are what you'll see.

 

When grouping, you learn teamwork, focusing fire and peeling. These are good thing to learn and important, but you'd learn them solo as well. It might take a bit longer, that's all. What you're giving up is more important, in my opinion.

 

As for dueling - that's in no way similar to warzones. Fighting a single target who's fighting only you is nothing like surviving focus fire, or holding a node. You could learn about DCDs and OCDs that way, but you're missing out on all the rest. You're also not seeing how the class plays in a warzone (with a select few classes being pretty similar).

 

Of course talking to players will also help... That's neither here nor there, though, and ancedotal evidence is irrelevant.

[foxmob]

sorry. I stopped after your first line. I didn't say dueling was like WZ I said you might as well duel. I said dueling will teach you what the other spec wants to do to you and how he exploits your weaknesses. it also makes it easier to isolate his weaknesses. I mean...look at what you're talking about: go solo and it'll teach you how to play a team game. right?

 

edit: it's random b/c you don't know what the other guy has on cd or vice versa. what do you learn about the other class when you come across someone whose big dcd is on cd? it's random because knowing what it takes or how to hit someone when there are 2 other x-healers and a guard swap tells you nothing about how said target would or should handle himself in a balanced situation. literally everything about the situation is random. what do you learn? don't run into a bunch of red plates? playing ranged behind a line of your own melee is better? ok. good thing you queued solo for that tidbit. I mean...buh. really. going solo doesn't make you a better player. that's just nonsense. being in a grp doesn't make you better either, nor does it magically mean you'll be a better player or learn more. but please stop suggesting ppl queue solo to "learn their class." it's just nonsense. buh. got a booboo. rub some dirt on it. buh. queue solo. be tough. learn to take a punch. buh.

Edited July 5, 2016 by foxmob

[Greezt]

sorry. I stopped after your first line. I didn't say dueling was like WZ I said you might as well duel. I said dueling will teach you what the other spec wants to do to you and how he exploits your weaknesses. it also makes it easier to isolate his weaknesses. I mean...look at what you're talking about: go solo and it'll teach you how to play a team game. right?

 

Too bad you stopped. If you hadn't you might've seen my say that dueling is good for learning different DCDs/OCDs, but not for learning the game.

 

In no way is playing solo playing alone... That's your mistake. You still play with a group. You didn't choose it, that's all.

 

Edit: in response to your edit - if you read my OP, you'll see I said that queueing solo is better for learning to survive in PvP. That's a fact, unless you somehow think queueing with three different people looking out for you is the same as queueing solo. If you do, I seriously doubt you've queued solo any time lately.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Greezt

[josephxp]

your list is wrong. let's say the player rating scale is 1-10, where 10 is the best and 1 is the worst. a pug team of 8-10 will not only defeat two premades composed of 5s-8s, they will utterly destroy them, and they will do so regardless of the role/AC composition. comms, class balance, and role composition cannot surmount a clear skill gap.

 

now, if you want to say the premades' average skill is 8 and they're playing pugs with an average of 9, then yes, better communication and team composition will sway the match almost every time. but look at what you're comparing? the difference between 8 and 9! here's an example of why a team of good pugs, even if they're all dps, will wreck a team of lesser players with 2 heals and a tank: the good players will pick someone to use as a focus target, and they'll attack whatever he's attacking. they don't need voice comms to tell themselves to do this. they don't even need to mention it in ops chat, because good players do that all the time. it doesn't take but 2 or 3 of them on the same target while 1 or 2 get on the other healer and the entire enemy will be cleared from the node before the first dead enemy can fly back.

 

lesson: comms matter very little to players when playing against those they are clearly better than. team composition (role and AC) matter only slightly more. for the premade to beat the pug, they need to be at least close to the pug in average team skill.

 

my point is this: everything is secondary to skill. the major matchmaking issue that premades present is that you don't often get a 10 who groups with a 5. more often it's 1s and 2s with maybe a 5. or 5s and 6s with 7s. players tend to seek out other players of similar skill or the best they can find to grp with. what this means is a premade is problematic because it has FOUR ppl ranging from 1-5 on the same team every time. that's a huge anchor for the other 4 teammates, and it's highly unlikely that the other 4 teammates are 8s 9s or 10s. the inverse is also true. you end up with mismatched teams on a skill level. unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot BW can do about that w/o killing queues. that leaves them the option of fixing role and faction balance issues.

 

I was not making a scale of how good a player is on 1 - 10, not even close. I was saying the character slots of a war zone. 3-4 being 3-4 out of the 8 total players in a warzone, not rating so i don't know how you could get that wrong unless you skimmed through. So not ratings or 1-10, just slots available in a 8 vs 8 WZ.

[foxmob]

I was not making a scale of how good a player is on 1 - 10, not even close. I was saying the character slots of a war zone. 3-4 being 3-4 out of the 8 total players in a warzone, not rating so i don't know how you could get that wrong unless you skimmed through. So not ratings or 1-10, just slots available in a 8 vs 8 WZ.

 

I know what you meant. I created the skill levels to illustrate a point. I don't have the patience to go over it again using different words. either you get it or you don't or someone else can explain it to you.