Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Pathlight-]

I almost always queue with guildies (ranked and unranked). The rare few times I queue alone, I'm in complete disbelief at how some of those people managed to find the queue wz button in the first place.

 

I'd rather premade all day and have fun with people who know what they're doing rather than play with those idiots. Sorry.

 

The real problem isn't premades, it's the army of bads invading warzones.

[MidichIorian]

IDid a few warzones solo, 3 matches later I was in a group, at the end of the day I was guilded. Its not hard to find people to play with.

That's just you having low standards.

[Raansu]

That's just you having low standards.

 

Well those low standards won me every single match....soooo ya.

[Glower]

They need to change something in the rules to 4+pug vs 4+pug, but not 4+4 vs pug or 4+4 vs 4+pug. Balanced games is a rare thing in SWTOR.

 

But...

They’d love to do that at some point, but technically very challenging and unlikely to happen in the near future.

[Raansu]

They need to change something in the rules to 4+pug vs 4+pug, but not 4+4 vs pug or 4+4 vs 4+pug. Balanced games is a rare thing in SWTOR.

 

But...

 

This has been addressed before, mentioned by both players who experienced it and by BW stating in years ago. The system does calculate group vs group already. The majority of the time when I premade I am facing other premades and rarely do I come across a premade when I queue solo. That has been my experience for years.

[Glower]

This has been addressed before, mentioned by both players who experienced it and by BW stating in years ago. The system does calculate group vs group already. The majority of the time when I premade I am facing other premades and rarely do I come across a premade when I queue solo. That has been my experience for years.

 

Yeah kinda, but i'm talking about 4+4 vs pug or 4+4 vs 4+pug... Also maybe im SOOOO unlucky on both sides of rng.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Glower

[SajPl]

You are bad and you are making your team loose. It is not the premades fault that you are bad. It is your own fault.

[Anyakaschala]

I'm done with this random group versus premade group crap in pvp. If you wanna group, have a battle plan, vent/mumble that's great but you need to play against another premade group not against a random group. I don't care if your wait time is long it's not a fair paring. BIO needs to queue groups against groups, individual against individuals. PvP is the only thing left in the game I find interesting and it's ruined when you get a score of 6 to 0 in huttball because the other group is a premade.

 

you do realize that the queue does try and do this....right? Just happens when not enough people are queueing in groups or uneven numbers, etc....

 

besides, as has been said, I've won 6-0 with a what seems like a full pug group against a group with 7ppl on the same guild.

 

I've lost 6-0 against what seems to be a full pug when I've been in a premade

I've won 6-0 when I was in a premade

I've lost 6-0 when I was in a premade

I've won 6-0 when it was seemingly pug v pug

I've lost 6-0 when it was full premades vs full premades

 

Get the point? Premade isn't the issue. If you want good matches, it is not accomplished through premade vs pug, it's accomplished by 8 skilled players vs 8 skilled players.

[MidichIorian]

you do realize that the queue does try and do this....right?

Link to source.

 

I can list occassions where I know for a fact that the system had a chance to match premade vs premade and pugs vs pugs but created two games with premades vs pugs instead. This has happened when the people I otherwise play with already had a full group and I had to pug. So we are standing around on fleet and are getting games at almost the exact same time. I get a premade against me and they get a gang of pugs they can roll over in 2 minutes. There is, based on my experience, no filter in this game and like you said, most hours of the day it wouldnt work anyway because the population doesnt support it.

Edited August 25, 2014 by MidichIorian

[Anyakaschala]

Link to source.

 

I can list occassions where I know for a fact that the system had a chance to match premade vs premade and pugs vs pugs but created two games with premades vs pugs instead. This has happened when the people I otherwise play with already had a full group and I had to pug. So we are standing around on fleet and are getting games at almost the exact same time. I get a premade against me and they get a gang of pugs they can roll over in 2 minutes. There is, based on my experience, no filter in this game and like you said, most hours of the day it wouldnt work anyway because the population doesnt support it.

 

well, in terms of recently, every time ive been in a pre-made, I've been matched against another pre-made. Granted, anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but this seems to be the norm for at least the last month or 2. And I still prefer premades even if it is against another full premade due to the fact that your are still going to get 8 skilled vs 8 skilled. And i'd much rather play that way, than get the box of chocolates of random pugs.

[Raansu]

Link to source.

 

I can list occassions where I know for a fact that the system had a chance to match premade vs premade and pugs vs pugs but created two games with premades vs pugs instead. This has happened when the people I otherwise play with already had a full group and I had to pug. So we are standing around on fleet and are getting games at almost the exact same time. I get a premade against me and they get a gang of pugs they can roll over in 2 minutes. There is, based on my experience, no filter in this game and like you said, most hours of the day it wouldnt work anyway because the population doesnt support it.

 

It was mentioned a long time ago. Sometime around 1.2 during the guild summit.

[foxmob]

you do realize that the queue does try and do this....right? Just happens when not enough people are queueing in groups or uneven numbers, etc....

 

besides, as has been said, I've won 6-0 with a what seems like a full pug group against a group with 7ppl on the same guild.

 

I've lost 6-0 against what seems to be a full pug when I've been in a premade

I've won 6-0 when I was in a premade

I've lost 6-0 when I was in a premade

I've won 6-0 when it was seemingly pug v pug

I've lost 6-0 when it was full premades vs full premades

 

Get the point? Premade isn't the issue. If you want good matches, it is not accomplished through premade vs pug, it's accomplished by 8 skilled players vs 8 skilled players.

a lot of examples here, but you're (both) talking about huttball...the one map in the game where dps/healing output is irrelevant, and an inferrior rated team can realistically upset a team that would wreck them on any other map in the game. i just though it was funny that hb turned out to be the thing that became the example. lol

[Anyakaschala]

a lot of examples here, but you're (both) talking about huttball...the one map in the game where dps/healing output is irrelevant, and an inferrior rated team can realistically upset a team that would wreck them on any other map in the game. i just though it was funny that hb turned out to be the thing that became the example. lol

 

considering I was responding to someone that was USING HUTTBALL AS THEIR EXAMPLE, it seemed to fit. If you want me to mention the other warzones, and I can do the same thing in every single warzone, but it would be pointless. The example stands, you just actually have to read the quote someone was responding to to really get the actual point of the reply....

Edited August 25, 2014 by Anyakaschala

[Stringray]

2 or 3 good ballers will beat any group without said ballers with or without premade groups.

 

Huttball is a different skill set than the other wzs.

[TezMoney]

Link to source.

 

I can list occassions where I know for a fact that the system had a chance to match premade vs premade and pugs vs pugs but created two games with premades vs pugs instead. This has happened when the people I otherwise play with already had a full group and I had to pug. So we are standing around on fleet and are getting games at almost the exact same time. I get a premade against me and they get a gang of pugs they can roll over in 2 minutes. There is, based on my experience, no filter in this game and like you said, most hours of the day it wouldnt work anyway because the population doesnt support it.

 

Now how did you the your friends know the other team didn't have a premade of 2- 2's, a 3 grp + a 2 grp, or a 4 with people from different guilds? It kind of blows my mid people assume their entire team is pug, but I'm certain they aren't surveying who is and isn't in a group every match. General skill and guild tags aren't an indicator. Sometimes 4 pugs know how to play the game, so they are coordinated due to that. Sometimes you solo-q the same time a guildie does and you both play well together based, again, on experience.

Edited August 25, 2014 by TezMoney

[foxmob]

considering I was responding to someone that was USING HUTTBALL AS THEIR EXAMPLE, it seemed to fit. If you want me to mention the other warzones, and I can do the same thing in every single warzone, but it would be pointless. The example stands, you just actually have to read the quote someone was responding to to really get the actual point of the reply....

 

I know you were. I wasn't taking a shot at you. I just thought it was funny that hb turned into the example wz.

[kamikrazy]

I almost never solo Q anymore... why? because i'm tired of getting people who don't know the basics in a warzone (conquests aren't helping). So instead of having up to 7 random derps on my team, i may only have 4 random derps, and 3 others i know i can count on.

 

this times one millyons

[Jadescythe]

Complaints about premades:

 

-Better comps

-Better gear

-Better players

-Better coordination

 

 

The problem with all of these assertions is that not all groups are the same. Just like not all PUGs are the same. So, you can match 4+PUG against 4+PUG, but if one team has an awesome 4 and the other doesn't, it's not different than 8 PUGs.

 

Are there times where you have 6 people at 100K or less damage while the other team has 4 full Brutalizer PvP players with a healer, tank, 2dps combo? Sure. It's a random queue, you're going to get random players on both sides. If the games were supposed to be fair, there would be elo/group/role matchmaking. But there isn't, it's a total crapshoot so stop expecting the game to be fair with an inherently unfair system.

 

You could have a "solo queue" that doesn't allow groups, but you have the same disadvantages. Teams with better gear, better comps, more skill, etc. Now, there just isn't a way to enjoy the lopsided wins/losses with your friends. And all those premades you complain about that do it "just to pugstomp noobs lel". Do you think they're gonna go to a group only queue or are they solo queue syncing with a good chance of getting 2-3 if not 4 or more players in the same warzone?

[foxmob]

I think if you Qsync, then you Qsync. it really won't matter solo or grp. however, the whole idea of split Qs is moot. population reasons alone preclude. no matter what your stance on the issue is, I think you need to realize that much. if not...you're delusional.

[Masturomenos]

Could fix it by just allowing cross server queing. Matchmaking is working unfortunately its only as good as the pool of players it can use.

[chillshock]

In swtor the experience and practice and teamplay trumps just about anything. basic gear helps, but in reality it is the experience of that player.

 

The underlying problem: This emphasized the matchmaking lottery, as there is absolutely no ranking/matchmaking taking place that even tries to factor in the experience of the players.

 

My suggestion:

- No more premades in solo queue

- No more solo in ranked PvP

- Achievements, Valor, Expertise and Number of games played as well as number of max level characters with valor > 40 should be factored into a hidden matchmaking score for a player.

- Subtract a score derived from "took a break playing" and a minor one for "took a break playing this class".

- Fill the queues at least two at a time: One from the bottom to the top, One from the top to the bottom.

- Never match a top filler against a bottom filler.

- NEVER start ANY warzone/arena with un-equal amounts of heals and tanks.

 

My shot at matchmaking algorithm

(considering 'fair teams' to be more important than 'fast pops' - the grinders might disagree).

Example for same faction team creation:

You got 4 characters at level 55 and play them in pvp. One of them in ranked. You have been playing since beta (like all selfproclaimed pro's ) and never took a break from gaming.

You are a *pulls out of the hat* 1000+ score player.

There are a bunch of casuals who have like 22 characters at 55 and maybe ONE of those has just made valor 60 to wear some BM gear. Totals in a 200-400 score.

There are a couple of passionate PvP casuals who have their one main and play that one since early days and a couple of alts who basically leveled through pvp. They end up with about 600-800.

There are the newbies. No PvP achievements to speak of yet (not even a win in every type of WZ), no gear and no valor ... so... 0-50 score.

 

Fill top: One long list - every second place goes to the oposite team.

A 1000

B 800

A 800

B 780

A 760

B 750

A 550

B 480

 

A 1000, 800, 760, 550

B 800, 780, 750, 480

 

Now swap every second entry: (evens out the total scores)

A 1000, 780, 760, 480

B 800, 800, 750, 550

 

Heals and Tanks (Any class that has more than 20 points in a tree counts as "could do this").

Check existing:

A 1000, 780(H), 760(T), 480(H)

B 800(T), 800, 750, 550

 

Since B is not having a heal and A is having two: Trade lowest score heal from A against lowest score DD from B

A 1000, 780(H), 760(T), 550

B 800(T), 800, 750, 480(H)

Sometimes heals or tanks must be drawn from the lower tier. So if there were healers in bottom up fill but none at top down: take the highest bottom up healer.

 

Apply same for tank - update on every queue (it's just swaps in potentially unordered sets... so that should be quick). If one team is without any heal - wich can only happen if only ONE has queued - don't start a match.

 

Do the same thing at the same time inverted from a bottom fill perspective. Never start a match before at least two times the required players are queued. That means for an arena match of solo q 4on4 16 players. This allows for two matches to start at the same time with no players being double-teamed. Yes, it takes a while for the queue to fill. But I'd expect more people to enjoy their game if they tend to get matched with 'the most similar experienced players' that are currently queued.

 

So - in conclusion:

• You need 2 queues per two matches:
  
• Match 1: Topfill 1 vs Topfill 2
  
• Match 2: Bottomfill 1 vs Bottomfill 2
  
• You end up with a healer-difference of no more than 1 per team.
  
• You end up with a tank-difference of no more than 1 per team.
  
• You never end up without heal vs with heal.
  
• You never end up without tank vs with tank.
  
• You always get matched with the closest players available to match your experience (so either you all need to l2p or none of you. ).
  
• Matching is rather easy (except for that heal-question - but then again, this is a single flag that can be set whenever respeccing - probably will come if handy on TFP matchmaking, too).
  It's: Assign to team, swap 2s, even heals, even tanks -> match if enough players are around.
  

 

Best case: Wide Spread of players queue - so many that with only 60 seconds (this number can be adjusted depending on load of the server and queue speed) of wait the game balance can be improved immensely.

Worst case: Only 2 newbies queue and the all others are superprofessionals. That would pull the two learning players into a match full of pros. This might get frustrating if it happens for hours on end.

Super-desaster: Not even 8 players per faction queue all day. Nothing can be done here. That match would be no fn for anyone and the servers pvp can be officially called "DEAD".

 

I suggest adding a cool indicator-effect (clowing faction icon) over the warzone mission boxes indicating the state of the queue:

GRAY: Nothing is going,

RED: few players queue,

YELLOW: Matches start about one ever 30 minutes,

GREEN: matches start one ever 5 Minutes,

PURPLE: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

 

Yes, I still believe that a more equal, fair and hope-filled pvp would reduce quitters, afkers and fill queues with players that don't expect to get steamrolled.

[Chimerako]

I like playing premades in pugs...its a challege but if i have 1 or 2 other decent players its fun. Also normally if i play late at night the pugs are just as good as the premades. The match making doesnt factor in valor or skill in anyway so i often see lopsided matches even amoung two pug teams. Ive stomped a pug team so bad with another pug team i know they thought we were a premade. 90% of the problem is skill...with no vent me and a few regular pvpers can hold our own aginst most premades i come across and i pvp on 5 servers.

[cs_zoltan]

In swtor the experience and practice and teamplay trumps just about anything. basic gear helps, but in reality it is the experience of that player.

 

The underlying problem: This emphasized the matchmaking lottery, as there is absolutely no ranking/matchmaking taking place that even tries to factor in the experience of the players.

 

My suggestion:

- No more premades in solo queue

- No more solo in ranked PvP

- Achievements, Valor, Expertise and Number of games played as well as number of max level characters with valor > 40 should be factored into a hidden matchmaking score for a player.

- Subtract a score derived from "took a break playing" and a minor one for "took a break playing this class".

- Fill the queues at least two at a time: One from the bottom to the top, One from the top to the bottom.

- Never match a top filler against a bottom filler.

- NEVER start ANY warzone/arena with un-equal amounts of heals and tanks.

 

My shot at matchmaking algorithm

(considering 'fair teams' to be more important than 'fast pops' - the grinders might disagree).

Example for same faction team creation:

You got 4 characters at level 55 and play them in pvp. One of them in ranked. You have been playing since beta (like all selfproclaimed pro's ) and never took a break from gaming.

You are a *pulls out of the hat* 1000+ score player.

There are a bunch of casuals who have like 22 characters at 55 and maybe ONE of those has just made valor 60 to wear some BM gear. Totals in a 200-400 score.

There are a couple of passionate PvP casuals who have their one main and play that one since early days and a couple of alts who basically leveled through pvp. They end up with about 600-800.

There are the newbies. No PvP achievements to speak of yet (not even a win in every type of WZ), no gear and no valor ... so... 0-50 score.

 

Fill top: One long list - every second place goes to the oposite team.

A 1000

B 800

A 800

B 780

A 760

B 750

A 550

B 480

 

A 1000, 800, 760, 550

B 800, 780, 750, 480

 

Now swap every second entry: (evens out the total scores)

A 1000, 780, 760, 480

B 800, 800, 750, 550

 

Heals and Tanks (Any class that has more than 20 points in a tree counts as "could do this").

Check existing:

A 1000, 780(H), 760(T), 480(H)

B 800(T), 800, 750, 550

 

Since B is not having a heal and A is having two: Trade lowest score heal from A against lowest score DD from B

A 1000, 780(H), 760(T), 550

B 800(T), 800, 750, 480(H)

Sometimes heals or tanks must be drawn from the lower tier. So if there were healers in bottom up fill but none at top down: take the highest bottom up healer.

 

Apply same for tank - update on every queue (it's just swaps in potentially unordered sets... so that should be quick). If one team is without any heal - wich can only happen if only ONE has queued - don't start a match.

 

Do the same thing at the same time inverted from a bottom fill perspective. Never start a match before at least two times the required players are queued. That means for an arena match of solo q 4on4 16 players. This allows for two matches to start at the same time with no players being double-teamed. Yes, it takes a while for the queue to fill. But I'd expect more people to enjoy their game if they tend to get matched with 'the most similar experienced players' that are currently queued.

 

So - in conclusion:

• You need 2 queues per two matches:
  
• Match 1: Topfill 1 vs Topfill 2
  
• Match 2: Bottomfill 1 vs Bottomfill 2
  
• You end up with a healer-difference of no more than 1 per team.
  
• You end up with a tank-difference of no more than 1 per team.
  
• You never end up without heal vs with heal.
  
• You never end up without tank vs with tank.
  
• You always get matched with the closest players available to match your experience (so either you all need to l2p or none of you. ).
  
• Matching is rather easy (except for that heal-question - but then again, this is a single flag that can be set whenever respeccing - probably will come if handy on TFP matchmaking, too).
  It's: Assign to team, swap 2s, even heals, even tanks -> match if enough players are around.
  

 

Best case: Wide Spread of players queue - so many that with only 60 seconds (this number can be adjusted depending on load of the server and queue speed) of wait the game balance can be improved immensely.

Worst case: Only 2 newbies queue and the all others are superprofessionals. That would pull the two learning players into a match full of pros. This might get frustrating if it happens for hours on end.

Super-desaster: Not even 8 players per faction queue all day. Nothing can be done here. That match would be no fn for anyone and the servers pvp can be officially called "DEAD".

 

I suggest adding a cool indicator-effect (clowing faction icon) over the warzone mission boxes indicating the state of the queue:

GRAY: Nothing is going,

RED: few players queue,

YELLOW: Matches start about one ever 30 minutes,

GREEN: matches start one ever 5 Minutes,

PURPLE: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

 

Yes, I still believe that a more equal, fair and hope-filled pvp would reduce quitters, afkers and fill queues with players that don't expect to get steamrolled.

 

Thanks but I don't want 5 hour queues...

[Jake_Chambers]

Buff "Making friends"

[Glower]

Buff "Making friends"

 

Buff my friends!