Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Doomsdaycomes]

I think what the OP was reffering to mostly when he started this is those annoying double 4-mans groups that specifically q for it and yes it is really easy to do despite what some other have said, I have done it with my raiding guild for the sake seeing what would happen.

 

The problam is when you have a situation like I had a while ago where I go into a match against the best pvp guild on my server, a guild that is renowned for being unbeatable and actually is auged, min/maxed, full WH etc. a 8 man goup of em they of course three capped in the first 30 seconds and actually went and stood under the spawn and killed us all as we spawned no kidding all 8 of us in our respanw at the same time every 30 seconds. I then find myself stuck against those same 8 people for the next 3 warzones, any fun? heck no.

 

Now I have no problems with premades in non-ranked as long as they are not a double 4 man or 4 & 3 mans. honestly on Jung Ma right now the PUG groups are as nasty and competative as any premade minus the voicechat. Couse i won 3 out of every 4 solo q'd warzones last week so i might not be representational of whats going on on other servers

 

All this about gear based q'ing is not the solution, considering people just dont go poof from full recruit to full BM to full WH and figuring out a way to determine where people should be placed would be impossible particularly when one can change their gear once they enter the warzone.

 

The best solution in my opinion is to make the pvp q like the regualr group finder where people set their role and teams are allotted out for an optimal mix of dps tanks and heals. This wil stop those really unfair warzones of Team A has 5 tanks and three dps while team B has 1 tank 2 healers and 5 dps, guess who is gonna win - Team B of course. team A just doesnt have the dps to do it peroid regardless of gear. where as with a group finder situation team A would have 1 healer 3 tanks and 4 dps while team B has 3 tanks one healer and 4 dps way more fair than before.

 

Finally, someone with some sense.

 

While i don't agree fully on the method you described for matchmaking, I'd say you're spot on in suggesting some form of matchmaking.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Correct, because premades refuse to play ranked against each other when there are enough of them to make a decent que. They choose not to.

 

I said normal is easier to start then ranked. Put on your thinking cap for a second... Normal wz can be started with 1, 2, 3, or 4... ranked requires exactly 8. It's like trying to start an ops run, except you have to hope there is another ops run going at the same time.

 

Normal WZ's are easier to start than ranked, it has nothing to do with 4-man teams refusing to link up and do ranked. NEWS FLASH, no one cares about you, no one cares who their opponents are, they just want to play.

 

No a premade is not an individual, a premade is a group of friends either in game and sometime...real life because there is something out there if you open your door..

 

Read my words again. Premader. Note the R on the end of Premader. As in a person (individual) who participates in premades. Premade is a group of people, a Premader is an individual in that group. That individual has already found 3 other people, hence being a Premader in a Premade.

 

A premade wouldn't be a premade if it was just 1 person... If it was 1 person getting people together for a match... it would be a PUG... that's kind of the deffinition of a PUG.

 

*facepalm* I have nothing to say to such stupidity.

 

I am asking just as much from them as they are asking of me..

 

Forget the whole premader vs premade thingy... your above statement is still false.

 

You are asked to find 1, 2, or 3 friends.

 

You ask back that the premade find 4 more friends.

 

No matter how you look at it, 4 is still greater than 1, 2, or 3. If you can't atleast wrap your brain around that, you should probably be back in school, not PuG'ing in a warzone.

 

It does, but gear is only part of it but people tend to get fixed on what they can fight on forums and try to ignore the rest. Lets say we have 2 equally gear groups... but alas one side is premade and has 2 healers a good tank and the rest they picked up are dps and whatever. The totally random group is healerless. sorry to say but if you don;t have heals and cannot kill theres it doesn't matter if you are in gear that is comparable you have to hope they suck and odds are as a premade... they don't..

 

So advocate for a GF like tool for WZ's, don't Q.Q cause other's have more skill and better team work.

 

Nope ranked is where people who want to make premades should go to better themselves as a player. To be around people that are like minded and have that challenge and fun you all "claim" to want.

 

*Sighs* Ranked is an exhibition place. It is not a practice ground. Again, you do not go to a Tournament to practice Magic, you go to your local game store. If BW wanted to make Ranked the home of the premades, they would have allowed 4-man queuing and put a sign saying "Premades, go here."

 

Your facts some are good, however some are down right horrible. The ones that are horrible that you get called out on you tend to ignore that you where called out about and you move on or change the subject.

 

*Sigh* List these things I "keep" getting called out on and "keep" ignoring, in a nice, neat 1, 2, 3, 4 order, so I may once again directly answer someone and then hopefully get -my- question answered.

[TridusSWTOR]

Also, this is a question of money. More players are casual puggers than are premaders. Infact the game would likely do better if all of us that like to premade (I love to premade if I can fight other premades just not in this game until premade matching is added) quit.

 

Why is money important to us? We want the game to last and we want more money into development.

Seriously, pvp is bad for most people that want more even matches. Whether it is puggers that want more even matches or geared premaders that want more even matches.

 

A decent premade matching (not mandatory) will not increase q times by much at all (since it is not mandatory).

 

I would like some responses to me. I don't see how anyone that says they like competitive pvp can argue from that standpoint against what I am saying. Prove me wrong pls.

 

That's the thing though, these premade supports openly want the game to die if they don't get their way.

 

They rather see this game fail rather than grow. They even admitted such a claim. So you see what logical people have to deal with? It's the ultimate troll.

[TridusSWTOR]

I have, but there are 2 major problems with RWZ:

 

- Organizing 16 people to do RWZ, thats more effort than you think , its easier to organize 4 people, but to organize 8 and then finding 8 other like minded people is hard.

 

- Most people that do RWZ isnt doing it for the fight, they're doing it for the Comms, most RWZ I enter ends up being empty space because they all left. So most are farming each other to get RWZ.

 

So yea my bad for people abusing the system.

 

You think Solo PuG WZ going to fix ****, it wont.

 

You think that having multiple tiers for WZ is going to fix it, it wont.

 

You even think that matchmaking would work, that could but its going to be hard.

 

Players will abuse the system, trying to find ways to stop premades happening will just end up people abusing the system more.

 

Which means people at the end will have less fun, is that what you want?

 

Because the current system is working out so well. Even though you admitted yourself it's hard to get any form of ranked pvp going...oh lord the irony.

[TridusSWTOR]

how is this thread even this long? this is an mmo, to even suggest that grouping should be discouraged is asinine.

 

if you dont like 4 man premades in wzs, dont queue up. if you feel so strongly about it that you feel the need to come to the forums and post about it, perhaps pvp just isnt your thing. you can always pve or level and alt, plenty to do in game besides pvp

 

So if people don't like the current pvp state, they shouldn't express their view on the forums. So why have a forum at all? By your logic then take away all complaint threads. Hey new resolve system? It's fine L2P.

 

So in order to help the pvp community, you want more people to just leave rather than try to fix it. Also if you did have solo queue bracket, when they go in the match...well....they get put on a team or a group if you will. So....

[Muramxx]

The PVP system is broken in many ways. Both sides, are going to have to figure out your going to have to give some to get some. I think there should be a higher teir of PVP and the reward for doing it better gear. I firmly believe if you do ranked games you shouldn't be limited to the same 4 gear choices for your class as the regular or yes... I am saying it... Casual Player. It would be an incentive for moving forward and I think that people that are in the upper teir would welcome this. The ranking system should act more as a "raid" style, larger group of people, more of a challenge but better gear at the end. this in turn would also give the solo players and , here it is again casual player, thier chance to enjoy the game at thier pace. To not get steamrolled everytime they enter a match. The thing they would be giving up for the fun they want... the top end gear would be out of reach unless they formed up groups as well. This is just a very rough concept that would have to be throughly worked and played with, but I believe it would enable 2 decent ques's people would move to the higher teir "group" que and more people would probably start doing more PVP on the "solo" side of the house knowing it might actually be a fun experience makeing it better for everyone.

[LenrocNewDawn]

Don't want to be "Captain Obvious" but there is a "group only" section of PvP. It's called ranked warzone, dooooh. Maybe removing pre-mades all together from regular WZs will make all u "L33t awesome sauce PvPers" go where you belong, ranked. You know what killed ranked? "Idiot" pre-maders met "l33t "premaders got creamed and refused to queue again. Same thing is happening in regular WZs now "idiot" PuGers meet "now l33t" premaders and refuse to queue again. And down the drain all our fun goes.

Used "idiot and l33t" just to assure I'm in the tone with the rest of the thread and because it looks like nobody is reading a post that doesn't contain the word "idiot" .

[TridusSWTOR]

The PVP system is broken in many ways. Both sides, are going to have to figure out your going to have to give some to get some. I think there should be a higher teir of PVP and the reward for doing it better gear. I firmly believe if you do ranked games you shouldn't be limited to the same 4 gear choices for your class as the regular or yes... I am saying it... Casual Player. It would be an incentive for moving forward and I think that people that are in the upper teir would welcome this. The ranking system should act more as a "raid" style, larger group of people, more of a challenge but better gear at the end. this in turn would also give the solo players and , here it is again casual player, thier chance to enjoy the game at thier pace. To not get steamrolled everytime they enter a match. The thing they would be giving up for the fun they want... the top end gear would be out of reach unless they formed up groups as well. This is just a very rough concept that would have to be throughly worked and played with, but I believe it would enable 2 decent ques's people would move to the higher teir "group" que and more people would probably start doing more PVP on the "solo" side of the house knowing it might actually be a fun experience makeing it better for everyone.

 

The thing is, they don't want to give up easy wins. Competition is just a tag line to make you think they actually have decent intentions to help the pvp community. Considering one of them hopes the game fails before they change anything in pvp, shows you how much they enjoy the easy wins.

 

It's a scrub mentality basically.

[Atramar]

The thing is, they don't want to give up easy wins. Competition is just a tag line to make you think they actually have decent intentions to help the pvp community. Considering one of them hopes the game fails before they change anything in pvp, shows you how much they enjoy the easy wins.

 

It's a scrub mentality basically.

 

question is: why don't you go for easy wins grouping with 3 over geared people to stomp over pugs instead of complaining?

[Veniras]

question is: why don't you go for easy wins grouping with 3 over geared people to stomp over pugs instead of complaining?

 

I can answer this:

- I play odd hours.

- Sometimes I log in for 30 mins and want a quick WZ or two without having to wait for ppl to come online

- Sometimes I just don't feel a need to talk to people (besides calling incs et cetera) and just want to do a WZ without any obligations.

- Sometimes I want a random team for the challeng of it.

 

and do you know what? MY REASONS ARE AS VALID AS YOURS!

Edited November 9, 2012 by Veniras

[Atramar]

I can answer this:

- I play odd hours.

- Sometimes I log in for 30 mins and want a quick WZ or two without having to wait for ppl to come online

- Sometimes I just don't feel a need to talk to people (besides calling incs et cetera) and just want to do a WZ without any obligations.

- Sometimes I want a random team for the challeng of it.

 

and do you know what? MY REASONS ARE AS VALID AS YOURS!

 

Actually I have no reasons to be valid/unvalid, I do both.

Your reason is valid, ofcourse, but, just becose you don't want obligations,talking with people, team play and waiting for other people, doesnt mean others should not be able to put a bit of efford before WZ to have it easier inside.

this is exacly why you can solo and team que.

[KismetTKM]

People take this game seriously... Lol.

[tatatan]

I can answer this:

- I play odd hours.

- Sometimes I log in for 30 mins and want a quick WZ or two without having to wait for ppl to come online

- Sometimes I just don't feel a need to talk to people (besides calling incs et cetera) and just want to do a WZ without any obligations.

- Sometimes I want a random team for the challeng of it.

 

and do you know what? MY REASONS ARE AS VALID AS YOURS!

 

valid post, +1

[tatatan]

Actually I have no reasons to be valid/unvalid, I do both.

Your reason is valid, ofcourse, but, just becose you don't want obligations,talking with people, team play and waiting for other people, doesnt mean others should not be able to put a bit of efford before WZ to have it easier inside.

this is exacly why you can solo and team que.

valid post, +1

[tatatan]

I think,

FRIEND LIST is the answer. (at least it was for me).

I play Jugg tank a lot lately (unguilded), so i already made 2 healer friends, resulting, i almost always queue in 2 man team.

Yesterday, 8 wins out of 9, just one WZ lost. I pull 200-300k (358 personal record) protection (except Huttball ofc) in Battlemaster gear (3 WH parts already, almost 4th.) I have full WH geared healer though and outstanding player, must add.

The game completely changed for me. Often i've been doing daily in 4 WZs (4 loses). Nowadays? Weekly in 2 days easily.

So dont be afraid, if you see good player around, ask him/her for party, if things work out, put him on friend list. After couple of days, you'll always have someone to go with. You'll get used to the others, you'll get better as team = win.

 

cheers

[SajPl]

I think,

FRIEND LIST is the answer. (at least it was for me).

I play Jugg tank a lot lately (unguilded), so i already made 2 healer friends, resulting, i almost always queue in 2 man team.

Yesterday, 8 wins out of 9, just one WZ lost. I pull 200-300k (358 personal record) protection (except Huttball ofc) in Battlemaster gear (3 WH parts already, almost 4th.) I have full WH geared healer though and outstanding player, must add.

The game completely changed for me. Often i've been doing daily in 4 WZs (4 loses). Nowadays? Weekly in 2 days easily.

So dont be afraid, if you see good player around, ask him/her for party, if things work out, put him on friend list. After couple of days, you'll always have someone to go with. You'll get used to the others, you'll get better as team = win.

 

cheers

 

This. Do not be afraid of other people you are supposed to play with other people.

[foxmob]

-.- ya know a 50 comm lose (should be 80 if you and your team are any good) in ranked is still more than a 140 comm win in normal? The only difference, is normal is easier to start than ranked.

 

Correct, because premades refuse to play ranked against each other when there are enough of them to make a decent que. They choose not to.

this is true enough, but there are more factors involved from my perspective:

 

• I grp with guildies randomly; I pvp on 5 different toons. I don't sit around trying to balance each grp with a healer, a tank, a ranged, and a melee. these are essential considerations for a ranked team.
  
• contrary to popular belief (on this forum, apparently) stacking heals is not going to win anything. go up against a team with great dps and just 2 heals, I guarantee that they'll shred your 4 healers, 1 tank, 3 dps in a reg wz. good dps are always going to shred an unguarded healer.
  
• I have a hard time getting 7 other ppl in guild that are geared, willing, available, and fulfill the requisite roles/classes necessary for competitive ranked play. trust me. my member note is "anybody wanna do ranked?" it's not like I'm not trying (poor inmortal!).
  
• the best ranked experience I've had to date was actually on an alt (vg). another guild was putting together two teams, any gear level. the teams were divided based on role and gear level. after every two matches, if there was a team that lost two in a row, they got to trade a player of their choice from one team to another (so long as the roles were the same). if all 16 players didn't get a pop at the same time, we just refused the pop and immediately queued at the same time. the ethics are debatable, but I'd rather play relatively balanced matches than roll or be rolled most of the time. iunno. it's an idea. only works in ranked cuz the Qs are so dead though. lol
  

[Doomsdaycomes]

Hey that's a great way to win people over.

 

My way or the highway, a stance my 7 year old nephew takes before he gets grounded. News flash, pvp is dieing with it's current system, it's your choice if you want to wear the blinders or not(which you are). You even admitted yourself it's too hard to get 7 people, yet premades aren't the problem in your version of the game.

 

If you can't find 7 people how come you don't join a guild or get more friends? I'm just wondering, it's rather easy, according to you and it is a group only MMO, according to you. So what's holding you back?

 

Oh that's right yourself and your excuses, since that is all you provided. I guess it's too "hard" to get a ranked match, even though you say group pvp is the status quo in this game.

 

Oh my god, the contradictions are just too much with you. I guess I can hope for some insults, from the previous post you provided.

 

Losing fast, you are.

 

News flash, I've already been advocating for better matchmaking, I simply also advocate self reliance. So glad you actually took the time to know whom you were arguing with.

[Doomsdaycomes]

@Muramxx:

 

I gave you a direct invite. Post the points/facts you claim I continue to gloss over/deflect, ignore, etc... in a very nice and neat list. (1, 2, 3, 4, ...22...)

 

I will answer them in order, directly.

 

Then, you will answer my questions. You will not skip them, you will not deflect them, as I will not.

 

Seem reasonable?

[Pvtcarnage]

I can't believe this thread is still going...

 

People complain about team work being OP and want their own bracket.

 

Yes... nerf teamwork.

 

An MMO surely isn't about playing in groups or being coordinated within that group.

 

I'm sure when we invaded Iraq, Saddam Hussein called and said "Hey... can you send in the troops one at a time... these groups of soldiers are OP."

 

Rofl, Thanks for the morning laugh I needed it. GO PACKERS!!!

[Muramxx]

Good morning all. The sex this morning with the wife was great (sorry no pics to prove it:D) and now I am taking my oldest kid to school. will be back eventually for more rants and raves in a little bit. Edited November 9, 2012 by Muramxx

[Muramxx]

I can answer this:

- I play odd hours.

- Sometimes I log in for 30 mins and want a quick WZ or two without having to wait for ppl to come online

- Sometimes I just don't feel a need to talk to people (besides calling incs et cetera) and just want to do a WZ without any obligations.

- Sometimes I want a random team for the challeng of it.

 

and do you know what? MY REASONS ARE AS VALID AS YOURS!

 

I do +1 this.

[DarthOvertone]

This. Do not be afraid of other people you are supposed to play with other people.

 

This is absurd! I'm a PvP god with a RL and responsibilities. I pay a sub, and since I pay money to a game, I should be able to play it my way, others be d*mned!

 

I would win every WZ single-handedly if it wasn't for those dastardly premades always mucking things up. D*mn them and their socialized, organized, communicative, coordinated ways. Don't they know they should respect my PvP authoritee and playstyle!

 

Nevermind that every PUG I'm in probably has a premade or two of its own. Nevermind that the "I lose because I play premades all the time" is as poor and aberrational an argument as "I lose because my opponent is always in Full WH."

 

If there were no premades, if there was no gear gap, I would win every game. This is a solo game. I want to win! I deserve to win! I am entitled to solo play and guaranteed victory! I'm a PUGging PvP god for eff's sake!! Awww! Awwwwww! Aaaawwwwwwwww!!

Edited November 9, 2012 by DarthOvertone

[Pvtcarnage]

FACT: a very low portion of premades actually play to grief and there's nothing wrong with it either...life is not fair. But most do premade regular WZ because A) no one is queing ranked B) Don't have the right class make up C) I spent 4 hours last night with our guild organizing 2 ranked teams and only got 5 games in due to people coming and going. D) Because Ranked was not made to be only were the groups are allowed it's for people who likes a rank to look at.

 

FACT: Half or less on average of regular games played are pug vs premade .If there are so many more casual PUG playing (keep seeing 90% thrown around) then how could the 10% playing premades teams be ruining it for ALL pugs?

 

Name one MMO that has a single only Que and no groups allowed. FPS and other type games not allowed as a answer.

 

Any stating that Premades only roll regulars for the easy wins are short sighted and self serving. You have all the options available to you that I have. I play this game to be social and have fun with friends. I work 60hrs a week and when I get Home I don't always want to spend a lot more time to set up ranked to make less comms, I need gear too.

 

The only answer is going to come from the addition of cross server ques (likely to never happen and BW really screwed the pooch on that one) But most fixes will only be partial fixes, there is always the crowd that will find a way for you to cry and only you can give them that power, I choose to rise up and fight back instead of waiting for someone to make it easier at the expense of other "working" teams (Welfare comes to mind)

 

Bottom line: BW has made a lot of changes to appease the casuals and none of it has been good enough. But anyone thinking BW will make a solo que only and no groups allowed are in dream land. So either do what it takes to improve or go play the PvE which is very easy and no challenge.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Pvtcarnage

[Feskitt]

Recently returned, left after launch.

 

Funny to see some things never change... and many PreMades are still scared to face other PreMades.

 

LOL. I remember during that first month, when you'd face a PreMade that worked together and seemed good... until you got one of them alone, 1 on 1. Then you realized why they had to make a PreMade in the first place.

 

Also LOL at all the excuses and whining and desperate wailing and gnashing of teeth from PreMades in threads like these, in utter terror that it might instigate changes that will make them face up to how not-good they really are.

 

My favorite -- the "explanation" that cross-queues won't work, because everyone, everywhere, will all click 'queue' at the exact same time, and it will mataphysically cancel each other out, and PreMades will therefore have too wait too long.