Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Arlanon]

Not to get too meta, since I just stumbled across this thread, but it seems at this point you can classify the posts on this board into three categories:

 

(1) Posts arguing that it's ridiculous that a 1.5 year old, 600+ page thread still has life.

(2) Posts arguing that the thread is still relevant for some reason or the other.

(3) Posts mocking either (1) or (2).

 

For convenience sake, I'd suggest that anyone that gets the urge to post on this thread in the future simply enter the number above corresponding to the type of message you're jonesing to fire off. For instance, instead of writing a 500-word essay on the evils of premades, I could just type "(2)". Anyone wanting to mock, can quote the appropriate "(2)" and type "(3)".

 

Anyone who takes the time to read thru 600+ pages of point and counterpoint and finds that they still have a unique idea, CAN START ANOTHER THREAD.

 

What about mocking the people in it?

 

4.

[DainjaMouz]

What about mocking the people in it?

 

4.

 

Well played, sir!

[Exly]

Not to get too meta, since I just stumbled across this thread, but it seems at this point you can classify the posts on this board into three categories:

 

(1) Posts arguing that it's ridiculous that a 1.5 year old, 600+ page thread still has life.

(2) Posts arguing that the thread is still relevant for some reason or the other.

(3) Posts mocking either (1) or (2).

 

For convenience sake, I'd suggest that anyone that gets the urge to post on this thread in the future simply enter the number above corresponding to the type of message you're jonesing to fire off. For instance, instead of writing a 500-word essay on the evils of premades, I could just type "(2)". Anyone wanting to mock, can quote the appropriate "(2)" and type "(3)".

 

Anyone who takes the time to read thru 600+ pages of point and counterpoint and finds that they still have a unique idea, CAN START ANOTHER THREAD.

 

I am sorry, but until BioWare responds to this thread with a meaningful solution. I will keep posting in it, and because I prefer to use my own words, I don't think that I will use your multiple choice approach to posting.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Exly

[Sharee]

CAN START ANOTHER THREAD.

 

Per bioware forum policy, when you want to discuss an issue that already has an ongoing thread, you are supposed to use that thread, and not start a new one. 4th bullet point from the top: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=33

Edited October 23, 2013 by Sharee

[Zoom_VI]

Per bioware forum policy, when you want to discuss an issue that already has an ongoing thread, you are supposed to use that thread, and not start a new one. 4th bullet point from the top: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=33

 

Except somewhere in the last 600 pages the points you think you have, have already been said, in fact most points relevant where said in the first 25 pages the other 575 pages are just a unending repeat of the first 25,

 

3,

[vennian]

Except somewhere in the last 600 pages the points you think you have, have already been said, in fact most points relevant where said in the first 25 pages the other 575 pages are just a unending repeat of the first 25,

 

If you repeat stuff enough, it tends to get a reaction. In this case it's a constant reminder to BioWare that "Austin, we have a problem".

Edited October 23, 2013 by vennian

[Zoom_VI]

If you repeat stuff enough, it tends to get a reaction. In this case it's a constant reminder to BioWare that "Austin, we have a problem".

 

Solo queue says hi

[vennian]

Solo queue says hi

 

Arenas are boring. Objective Warzones are not.

[Helig]

Wish BW have already conquered the engine and made x-server Warzones possible. Would untie their hands to give us more freedom to customize our warzone/Arena queues further without compromising queue times.

[Zoom_VI]

Arenas are boring. Objective Warzones are not.

 

Now your just nit-picking details

[vennian]

Now your just nit-picking details

 

And you are suggesting a gimped "solution". Namely that PUGS should not be able to enjoy ordinary warzones as they have "their special solo ranked".

 

Argue better!

Edited October 23, 2013 by vennian

[Zoom_VI]

And you are suggesting a gimped "solution". Namely that PUGS should not be able to enjoy ordinary warzones as they have "their special solo ranked".

 

Argue better!

 

There team ranked which is only premades

 

There is solo ranked which is purely pugs

 

There is regs which is mixed

 

Seem fair to me

Edited October 23, 2013 by Zoom_VI

[vennian]

There is regs which is mixed

 

Seem fair to me

 

This is the whole the reason for the thread. The "mixed" in regs pits premades vs pugs. This is anything but fair. And so we have come full circle again.

 

Pleas don't try. You cannot defend the premades vs pugs with any other argument that it is a bad design only in place because of population issues

Edited October 23, 2013 by vennian

[Zoom_VI]

This is the whole the reason for the thread. The "mixed" in regs pits premades vs pugs. This is anything but fair. And so we have come full circle again.

 

Pleas don't try. You cannot defend the premades vs pugs with any other argument that it is a bad design only in place because of population issues

 

So your argument is all my arguments are wrong?

 

Argue better

 

Regs are mixed, period

Why?

Because the game cannot and will never be able to tell the difference between a few friends queuing in no particular comp versus a group specifically setup for optimum. Stop using hyperbole to pretend that all grouped players are min/maxed Obroan and in voicechat, because the vast majority of them are not, in fact the vast majority of groups are random friends queuing because they can, and you never realize that they where even grouped

And honestly the number of premades I see that actually run a tank dps dps healer setup are slim to none at all, people here take exaggeration to the extreme.

[Sharee]

There is regs which is mixed

 

Seem fair to me

 

One side has full control over team composition. The other side is subject to luck of the draw.

One side can cherry-pick the best players. The other has to play with whatever it gets.

 

Yea. That sure seems fair

[knownastherat]

So your argument is all my arguments are wrong?

 

Argue better

 

Regs are mixed, period

Why?

Because the game cannot and will never be able to tell the difference between a few friends queuing in no particular comp versus a group specifically setup for optimum. Stop using hyperbole to pretend that all grouped players are min/maxed Obroan and in voicechat, because the vast majority of them are not, in fact the vast majority of groups are random friends queuing because they can, and you never realize that they where even grouped

And honestly the number of premades I see that actually run a tank dps dps healer setup are slim to none at all, people here take exaggeration to the extreme.

 

The game can, however, differentiate between a group and an individual and without using hyperboles I would guess that there is reasonable probability of a group preforming better than a bunch of individuals. I am not sure where you get your numbers from - the vast majority of them are not - but I will assume its anecdotal. Fair enough. No point to argue without evidence - statistics. Those numbers only BW has and it would be nice if we could see them.

 

We can debate what is fair and whatnot. I am confident to take a vote against the claim that Regs are mixed and its fair. You see, there is no truth to be found, there are just opinions, majority and minority. Most people do have sense of what fair is, even 6 year old kids do display such abilities, and most people will also decide.

 

But there will be no poll ...

Edited October 23, 2013 by knownastherat

[vennian]

. Stop using hyperbole to pretend that all grouped players are min/maxed Obroan and in voicechat, because the vast majority of them are not, in fact the vast majority of groups are random friends queuing because they can, and you never realize that they where even grouped

 

http://social.bioware.com/forum/Gameplay/Realm-vs-Realm/Scientists-confirm-on-average-premades-are-better-than-PUGs-9987763-1.html

[t-darko]

Less and less people are pvp'ing now, sometimes it takes 45-60 mins for a pop to happen.... I've noticed a trend on certain servers you get a few PvP guilds that do nothing but make up 4 man premades and ruin all the fun for people who just want jump into a quick warzone... What happens is you can go against a fully geared out premade who's on vent/mumble/team speak and they pretty much just own everyone...

 

Bioware you need to add a PUG only warzone option, this will level the playing field more and allow people to just have fun.... If not, less and less people are going to pvp due to frustration with the situation..

 

This is sadly a continuous story, the consequences was the removal of Ranked 8 vs 8 and an growing attitude build of silly mindless ranting therefore we're discussing this http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=690301

[Zoom_VI]

This thread in a nutshell

1. Serious QQ post against premades
   
2. Serious counter argument against the QQ
   
3. slightly troll/dismissive response against the QQ
   
4. Finally: Troll response mocking the thread in general
   

 

repeat x150

Edited October 23, 2013 by Zoom_VI

[Zoom_VI]

One side has full control over team composition. The other side is subject to luck of the draw.

One side can cherry-pick the best players. The other has to play with whatever it gets.

 

Yea. That sure seems fair

 

Because sooooo many premade are actually regulating their composition in regs

wait.....

No they are not, for starter I almost never see a tank, dps, dps, heal premade

90% of "premades" are guildies just grouping to pvp together, regardless of class or role, and you can grit your teeth through the other 10% of premades

[Sharee]

Because sooooo many premade are actually regulating their composition in regs

wait.....

No they are not, for starter I almost never see a tank, dps, dps, heal premade

90% of "premades" are guildies just grouping to pvp together, regardless of class or role, and you can grit your teeth through the other 10% of premades

 

If a premade does not take advantage of the option to regulate their composition its their own fault. The fact remains that they CAN do it, and the pug CAN NOT. That fact by itself means the matchup is not fair.

[cycao]

If a premade does not take advantage of the option to regulate their composition its their own fault. The fact remains that they CAN do it, and the pug CAN NOT. That fact by itself means the matchup is not fair.

 

So people who chose to group are at fault for not optimizing their make up and those that chose not to group up are not at fault since, well, they chose not to?

 

 

They're probably some other gems in here somewhere but this was the one I first saw.

[gblXsw]

If a premade does not take advantage of the option to regulate their composition its their own fault. The fact remains that they CAN do it, and the pug CAN NOT. That fact by itself means the matchup is not fair.

 

If a player is too lazy, too asocial or otherwise unwilling to make a group before queueing - guess what - IT'S HIS OWN FAULT! Everybody CAN play in a balanced group. That fact by itself means that it's fair.

[Wainamoinen]

If a premade does not take advantage of the option to regulate their composition its their own fault. The fact remains that they CAN do it, and the pug CAN NOT. That fact by itself means the matchup is not fair.

 

But no-one is stopping the pugger joining a group. Claiming that when a group isn't using voice-chat and ideal compostions then any resulting lack of effectiveness is their fault, but when a solo-player ignores the opportunity to join a group that's different, contradicts itself

 

The same options are available to all: it is fair. The regular warzones are open to all, solo or in groups of up to four. You agree to those terms when you join, and if your performance is under par then it is down to you to improve it. If you choose not to take an option to improve performance - and I usually solo pug myself - I'm not going to complain that others are trying to be as good as they can be. That is pretty much the point of PvP.

 

This clear position is only modified by the fact SWTOR is a game people play to have fun, and that losing isn't fun. It's fair, but it might not be fun. I'd find the arguments in this thread a lot less self-serving if people protesting about prremades admitted that was what was at issue, and always has been.

 

And if people don't want to face groups, they don't have to. Unfortuanately, those lazy devs at Bioware haven't yet worked out a way to ensure everyone has a satisfying 80-90% win rate in PvP. Which is what I suspect it would take to make arguments about what is "fair" disappear.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Wainamoinen

[Zorion]

its always been an issue in this game :/

 

Even back when there was no "end-brackets" (as in lvl 10-50 where all in 1 pool)

 

Then the lvl 50's started to group more and more + they got tiered gear meaning that the gear wars started aswell.

 

Before gear started to play such a heavy role and the premades was rampant -> there was times when a bunch of lower lvl's would rofl-stomp the higher lvl's due to skill or randomly getting meshed together.

 

People defending premade style in non-ranked, you got to ask yourself why you do run premade.

And too be clear we're not talking about the 4 random ppl in a guild grouping up for 1-2 hrs too have fun.

-->

I'm talking about the people who que for 8-12hrs pr day same 4man on Ebon Hawk stomping pugs.

 

There is a quick fix to this 4man domination issue though, just reduce the 4man option in non-ranked to 3 ideally.

That should spice things up abit, like on EH at some non-peak hrs there is not only the issue of 4man premade you have to deal with, but due to the low intrest of pvp in general maybe the pool overall of daily pvp'ers in in the 100's.

Powerqueing so you face 2*4mans.

Or at its worst times you and 3 other people is standing around queing and ************ in pvp about the insane long que times, while you see there is 1 game being played at lvl 55 with the same 8 republic players for the 3rd game in row.

 

Since the pugs dont take precedence it will rather fill the 2*4 mans to get 8 (that I can agree on) but it then means that the solo quers get shafted that way 2.

 

The core issue though regardless of what you say defnders of 4man premades is that your playstyle is enforced on other people who que-solo for a reason, we like the challenge and randomness of wz's.

Dont get much random if you stack the deck in your favor do it now?

 

Ideally they would just merge all servers into 1, and shard it out more like ESO is doing.

so shard 1-10 is rp. 11-20 is pve etc etc etc.

 

I play from EU on US servers my fault, but the situation when I rolled was that it suited me better I got about 100ms, and tbh I got better than some of the US players on the server, so I cant see any valid point on merging.

 

if they merged the servers -> it would mean a huge pool of players to pick from.

Thus matchmakeing would be a solution.

 

Naturally if they could fork out the cash to develop xserver that would also fix the issue too some degree or mostly.

(currently heroengine dont support xserver d'oh good choice bioware, "Dallas Dickinson" -> "we choose to have it like this too build community"

I bet you would still have a decent enough community on all kinds of servers as is, but it would improve the choice of those who prefer to soloque and fight others like'em if you had gone the path of xserver too start out.

 

Hello -> WoW didnt have xserver pvp at laucnh but 2nd year? they saw that it was needed, and well ehem WoW is still the benchmark in the industry in regards to success (in active paying subs 10 years+ )