A Tale of Two Games: ToR and WoW - Review!

[Sheike]

To be frank, you ought to give it time before passing any type of final judgement...World of Warcraft has been out forever and TOR is barely past its launch date at this point. It wouldn't be fair at all to act like WoW is innately better, seeing as it has years of development time over TOR. Wait until at least a month or two after the first expansion to pass final and definite judgement, then we'll see for certain which is the better game.

[GhostNine]

So, in a nutshell you say: Companion crafting and story good, everything else bad.

We get it.

Its like the people who dont like the game spend the most time starting threads about it. for what? Just to say "I told you so" a year from now (or whatever you said)

Alot of what you say may be correct but, it's still an opinion and TOR is still just a game. EA/BW have the $ and skills necessary to make changes and move forward.

If they never do, TOR will fail. They know this and they know that most gamers nowadays are savvy.

Since it's BW and Star Wars we will give them some time. Just not forever.

 

In the mean time there are people having lots of fun. Non WoW players like myself may like it a bit more because we arent laying comparisons on it.

[kennn]

It was the blurst of times. Happy Holidays.

 

hahaaha

[Rion_Starkiller]

It's tOR.

 

Attention to detail you lack.

[MaDLock]

OP is asking for too much. The 1st content patch will have targets target as it´s main feature i hope. It´s only 2012. The Internet just launched.

[Ragingtortoise]

The argument that TOR should be compared to WoW when it launched instead of to WoW now needs to stop. Sure, it just released, but it's still 2011. They have WoW as an example of what works and what doesn't.

 

So far, I've enjoyed TOR. Sure, the combat mechanics are really buggy, although there's nothing wrong with the animations in my eyes, but the abilities don't feel crisp to use, they feel sluggish, and it isn't latency on my end. I didn't really notice until I started using abilities with cast times. The sharding is also horrendous.

 

I don't want to "go back to WoW" as many people who point out flaws in TOR are told to, I want to like the game more, but the lack of core features like a combat log sucks, and the combat is sluggish.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Ragingtortoise

[penizona]

Exactly the same for me and many others I know; WoW has never featured on my gaming horizon, so comparisons are lost and are totally irrelevant.

 

People who call themselves gamers, MMO gamers, RPG gamers, who have not played WoW have missed out on the most EPIC gaming experience ever, and are speaking from ignorance and not experience.

 

I love WoW, I still enjoy Wow, yet as a true gamer, something new is something to experience. I'm hoping for the best from SWTOR, I am hoping to enjoy a long term gaming relationship.

 

And all you folks who really haven't played a TRUE MMORPG.....there's a book or two on your shelf...go back to D & D's....they know you there.

[BrambLed]

The argument that TOR should be compared to WoW when it launched instead of to WoW now needs to stop. Sure, it just released, but it's still 2011. They have WoW as an example of what works and what doesn't.

 

So far, I've enjoyed TOR. Sure, the combat mechanics are really buggy, although there's nothing wrong with the animations in my eyes, but the abilities don't feel crisp to use, they feel sluggish, and it isn't latency on my end. I didn't really notice until I started using abilities with cast times. The sharding is also horrendous.

 

I don't want to "go back to WoW" as many people who point out flaws in TOR are told to, I want to like the game more, but the lack of core features like a combat log sucks, and the combat is sluggish.

 

This is 100% correct. The people that argue that WoW had 7 years to develop so TOR needs to be given time are crazy.

 

Bioware can't just say "hey pay us 15 a month and we promise in 7 years we will be where WoW is now". That's not how it works. They have World of Warcraft they have to deal with. Whether people play World of Warcraft or not, the game needs to be at LEAST as good as WoW when it COMES OUT if it wants to be competitive in this genre.

 

People aren't going to pay for things they don't feel are worth their time. Release a product that's worth $15 a month if you want to charge $15 a month.

[MEMEyou]

Wow? what's that?

[Danik_Kreldin]

The argument that TOR should be compared to WoW when it launched instead of to WoW now needs to stop. Sure, it just released, but it's still 2011. They have WoW as an example of what works and what doesn't.

 

So far, I've enjoyed TOR. Sure, the combat mechanics are really buggy, although there's nothing wrong with the animations in my eyes, but the abilities don't feel crisp to use, they feel sluggish, and it isn't latency on my end. I didn't really notice until I started using abilities with cast times. The sharding is also horrendous.

 

I don't want to "go back to WoW" as many people who point out flaws in TOR are told to, I want to like the game more, but the lack of core features like a combat log sucks, and the combat is sluggish.

 

No, it's absolutely fair to say WoW has had 7 years of release time to perfect things. A video game has a time table in which to create the game and put in all the features that can be done within that time. They have to create the main crux of the game first, obviously, and all the rest comes after. They have to get the game out soon, so they can start generating revenue to keep the game alive.

 

When it comes to, they have to leave certain things out. Sure, a guild achievement system is nice, but is it 100% necessary for day 1? Will delaying the game to get that feature in on day 1 a must? WoW didn't have guild achievements until end of WotLK. Yes, it's a nice feature, but it's not imperative to the functioning of the game. And when you have a time table, some things have to be left on the cutting room floor until you have the time and money to go back to it.

 

If Bioware tried to cram every single thing into the game on day 1, then the game would never be released. It's just not possible. It's a completely unfair expectoration and completely defies the reality of business and game development.

[Vaegaknight]

This is 100% correct. The people that argue that WoW had 7 years to develop so TOR needs to be given time are crazy.

 

Bioware can't just say "hey pay us 15 a month and we promise in 7 years we will be where WoW is now". That's not how it works. They have World of Warcraft they have to deal with. Whether people play World of Warcraft or not, the game needs to be at LEAST as good as WoW when it COMES OUT if it wants to be competitive in this genre.

 

People aren't going to pay for things they don't feel are worth their time. Release a product that's worth $15 a month if you want to charge $15 a month.

 

I like how on the internet everyone is a statistics, economics and sociology major. You know, predicting trends and what people want to buy. You realize the people complaining are the minority, right?

 

This is not WoW. But if it must be compared? TOR is further along than WoW was at WoW's launch. Yes. Seven years does help. Helps a lot more than developing a new game from scratch. That's longer to become familiar with the engine and work out the kinks, as well as gather enough data to decide what your customer base wants. YES. Seven years is a MASSIVE advantage and YES TOR should be given some time.

 

Good lord, people. Games are damned if they do, damned if they don't nowadays. It's stupid. Too much like WoW? SHUNNN. Not enough like WoW? SHUNNNN.

 

Don't enjoy the game? Don't play it. That's much more sensible than complaining about it. Because nothing you can say will change it. This game is not your vision. It's Biowares and as soon as you accept that, the happier you'll be.

 

And nothing negative anyone can say will ever ruin my enjoyment of the game. I form my own opinions, thanks -- and I don't need some reviewer who is clearly up his own *** telling me what a good game is or isn't because he played Counter Strike and was "good" at WoW.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Vaegaknight

[Tinantier]

Anyone who uses WoW as their comparison point is automatically rendered irrelevant to me.

 

^-- This.

 

WoW pretty much dumbed down the entire MMO idea into a want it now easy mode game.

 

Odd thing is though, you go to the WoW boards and you will find exactly the same set of whines and complaints there.

[Kraniumbrud]

^-- This.

 

WoW pretty much dumbed down the entire MMO idea into a want it now easy mode game.

 

Odd thing is though, you go to the WoW boards and you will find exactly the same set of whines and complaints there.

 

yea ive noticed that aswell...curius how there are allways people complaining...could it be that statistically when you get into the million subscribers, there will be people not satisfied...time will tell if we all leave in the next 6 days..cause after all six days is a long time in a mmo..after all most mmo's have almost solved thier constant crashes in the first six days.

 

*hands out cookies*

[Vaegaknight]

The problem here is that this is hardly a different game. It's WoW in Star Wars skins with a few innovations.

 

And WoW is Everquest reskinned with a few innovations. Your point?

 

WoW is not the holy grail of gaming. It's not the holy grail of MMO's either. It's just the most accessible, smoothly running MMO. That's it.

[Kraniumbrud]

And WoW is Everquest reskinned with a few innovations. Your point?

 

WoW is not the holy grail of gaming. It's not the holy grail of MMO's either. It's just the most accessible, smoothly running MMO. That's it.

 

infact you can expand that vastly...why the hell do people like Call of duty..its just quake with better grafics and very few innovations.

 

Why the hell do people like starcraft its just DUNE 2 with better grafics.

 

Games are genre based...memorpeges are based on Everquest which is losely based on ultima online...i do agree Vaegaknight..find something new to complain about, and i still say that this game has done just about everything better than wow.

 

If i had to kill 100 boars here to get 2 boar tusks..I know bioware would make me feel epic while doing it!

[songofprecept]

I skipped 74 pages just to say 'can I have your stuff'

 

#justsayin

[DarthDhucky]

I agree with OP.

 

Anyone left playing this game after 6 months will most likely be the subscribers/survivors of SW:G.

[Jarlhen]

I give him 9/10. Really good attempt, clearly got a lot of people.

[Ginerc]

 

Who am I? I'm some dude that led a top-US CS:S team for many years, was a part of two top-10 WoW guilds, and played in several WoW Arena Tournies (including the CGS invitational) and many many CS tournaments, including the CPL. I also had a stint working for an indie game developer several years ago. I like to think that I know what I'm talking about, and usually, I do.

 

 

Is this a feeble attempt at an argument from authority? I mean it is really cute that you were on a CS team, /pat you on the back. And arena teams?! Good for you sparky.

 

I can see that you clearly think very highly of yourself, but clearly you don't think your words carry that much weight because you start your little "review" by name dropping and telling us all how important you are.

 

See what kids like you never learn is that it doesn't matter who says something, it is the CONTENT of what is being said that matters; To be honest I am not wowed by content of your very long winded "review".

 

Keep feeling self important slugger.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Ginerc

[Oneiros_IV]

My guess would be Bioware does same mistakes Blizz did during vanilla design.

 

First of all there's 2 different perceptions of things a) How devs view the stuff b) What players do with this stuff.

 

I'll elaborate: in early wow there were useless classes. Not completely useless of course they levelled, teamed, socialized but in terms of game performance were always 2nd or 3rd to some other class in every aspect. So are unfocused skill trees. Warrior exclusive items having spirit (Wich would look bizzare by today's standards) etc etc this list can go on.

 

So let's get back to devs vs players. Blizzard said "Ok we know that paladin cant be half as good healer as priest, can't be as good tank as warrior, and it's dps output is sufficient to level and we're fine with that" The reasoning behind this was a faulty assumption that players having fun doing bit of this and bit of that, albeit poorly in grand scheme of things.

 

But players as a whole are most pragmatical bunch and will always use given tools in their own way according to accumulated collective experience and their own effectiveness evaluation.

 

And MMO communities are driven by competitive (wannabe comepetitive in some cases) players. Not by aged pubbies who log during weekend to chat and do some quests.

 

So here we go, a clash between devs vision vs players. Bioware says it's ~fun~ to throw chunks of debris at enemies with an epic animation. Player questions "How often can I throw these chunks? will they crit? Wouldn't it better to stop throwing these and go melee because of following factors?"

 

In short so called "freedom" is illusionary in MMO, players strive for most effective ways to do stuff, players are bound to do so, and will take ugly chestpiece in favour of better stats any day, and it's perfectly normal.

 

Problem so far is clunky combat, animation times, and all these fancy visuals are causing statistical chaos and absense of balance. When there's no hard numbers and everyone's lacking true control over their character's actions there is no competition.

 

Mark my words at the end of the day players go for effective stuff over cool-looking.

 

Different way of thinking belongs to single-player games and social networks.

[Kuwano]

Another WoW fanboy trying to achieve don't know what by writing a 0 value "review" from the narrow point of view of a WoW fanboy. Please, go back to your top 10 guilds in other games and don't waste your time (not to mention the time of others). I could go to WoW forum and write a few pages of why I couldn't stand that brainless, ugly game more than 20 minutes. Could compare it to countless older MMO's and say that WoW didn't invent any single new feature and other games already had all these things and even better (yet it shouldn't matter, because MMO is MMO, just like FPS is FPS, can't expect much inventions from a genre that is already shaped many years ago). That the only "greatness" of the game is hidden behind 2 words - "Blizzard" and "Warcraft" (combination of "Bioware" with "Star Wars" means something to lots of people as well by the way). I wouldn't even mention the graphical style that can appeal only to 5 years old ******* or older people with no taste. It would be a waste of time for me and for people on that forum, because when people want to read a review of the game, they'll go to one of the respected websites whose job is to write unbiased, reasonable and mature reviews.

If you had some of your very own expectations about the game and the game didn't meet them, no one need to know about this, except for your close friends or your mother who is supposedly giving you money to buy games. Just go and tell her - "Mom, seems like I wasted your money on the game I don't like". Don't go here and type so much nonsense that is not interesting to anyone but yourself or someone from the top 10 guilds in WoW. Cheers.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Kuwano

[Zeenno]

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. For ToR, unfortunately, mostly the worst. This isn't my first review - I reviewed the game during the beta several times, but I was shunned by incredulous and overzealous fans. After all, it was "just" a beta. Well here we are, at the dawn of release - no longer in the beta. So where does this game stand in the grand scheme of things? How does it compare to WoW, SWG, Rift, GW2? Lets find out.

 

Who am I? I'm some dude that led a top-US CS:S team for many years, was a part of two top-10 WoW guilds, and played in several WoW Arena Tournies (including the CGS invitational) and many many CS tournaments, including the CPL. I also had a stint working for an indie game developer several years ago. I like to think that I know what I'm talking about, and usually, I do.

 

Story

Story. Story. Story. We've heard it over and over again. Bioware has really hammered this home - much how Vincent Chase is Queens Boulevard, The Old Republic is story. And story is one of the few battles ToR wins. The voice over quality is top notch and primary class quests are mostly interesting and engaging. Some may be deterred by the incessant use of family drama as a plot device since it gets old pretty fast. With that said, don't expect Chaucer, but the writing is sufficient.

 

Unfortunately, the side quests are problematic and suffer from trivial subject matters ("blah blah click some turrets") or endless fetch questing (go to X, come back to Y, go to X again, now back to Y). This wouldn't have been a problem 10 years ago, but 2012 is almost here. WoW has moved us past the trivialities of fetch questing and now we do cool stuff like lassoing dragons, bombing runs or mind-controlling giants. ToR pretends like there hasn't been an entire generation of MMORPGs since KOTOR and suffers for it greatly. Bonus quests are an interesting touch, but more often than not, they insult the player. Here you are doing the most trivial of tasks (ex: clicking control panels - a Bioware favorite) and a bonus quest pops up that asks you to kill 30 of the same type of mob. And just like that, we're all sent back to the late 90s. Bioware has a lot to learn from Jeff Kaplan.

 

On many levels, however, the VO is a technical achievement. Ordinarily, I'd have no problem with pouring so much money into something like voice over, but the gameplay significantly suffered from it. To me, that's unforgivable.

 

Combat

The crux of a good MMORPG is solid combat. I expect combat to be fluid, responsive, and logical. ToR has a pretty good grasp of what it wants to do, but doesn't quite reach the bar set by better MMOs. First of all, the "heroic" combat Bioware preached for years and years isn't as heroic as they made it out to be. Animations are often choppy and blocking animations seem to happen at random times (as opposed to having weapons make contact). But lets face it, it's not a big deal. What is a big deal, however, is the lack of an auto-attack.

 

This quizzical gameplay choice hurts more than it helps. It means that the gamer needs to manually press 1-1-1-1-1 (or right-click like a madman) to use the regular "white attack" ability and to generate resources that one may use (in the case of the Warrior-archetypes). Not only is this boring, but it literally provides zero gameplay improvement - what is the reasoning behind no auto-attack? Who knows.

 

Stealth and cover are very underwhelming. Cover, in particular, is nigh worthless in PvP. The conical radius, the spent GCD, the fact that 4 classes can easily close range, and the fact that almost every class has a knock-back should be very clear indicators that a mechanic like cover is a terrible, terrible idea.

 

Stealth, as mentioned, is very odd. On one hand, it tries to mimic what stealth is in WoW (a fundamental mechanic of classes like rogues and feral druids), while more often than not it becomes merely a trivial escape mechanism. It needs to be fundamentally reworked - stealth should be a game mechanic, not a novelty.

 

PvE and Leveling

Admittedly, a high point of the game are the instances (known as flashpoints). Black Talon, Athiss, Hammer Station, etc. are all fairly well-designed. Mechanics are tried and true: get out of the fire, interrupt heals, kite bad stuff. This is where ToR really does feel like "WoW in space" and it's also arguably the best part of the game. As a matter of fact, the only reason I'm still playing is because I'm curious to see if the large-scale Operations will be as good as Flashpoints.

 

Leveling is fairly smooth, but the fact that the world is sharded can be distracting and does discourage grouping. Heroic 2+ man quests can be fun, but I found myself skipping them more often than not - the time invested doesn't seem worth it. During hardcore leveling periods, I also found myself skipping all VO. I don't care about your life story, I just want to get this quest out of the way. I feel somewhat guilty about it, but these are the scenarios that make me feel like side-quest VO is a swing and a miss - a very expensive miss.

 

PvP

PvP is a joke, there's not much more to say. It's an insult to any form of competitive activity. Huttball is one of the worst ideas I've ever seen implemented in an MMO: Warsong Gulch with a passable flag? Really? What irks me most is that someone actually made money coming up with such a terrible idea. Inconsistent traps, obnoxious commentators, bad layout, Huttball has it all. There are 15-year-olds that designed better Unreal Tournament maps. Sure, there may be some occasional mindless fun to be had with Huttball, but there's no real value here.

 

Alderaan is significantly better, but doesn't even compare to the wide variety of BGs present in MMOs like WoW or Rift. Ignoring WoW's trailblazing here, Rift's "Black Garden" was a particularly awesome innovation. World PvP is more or less nonexistent.

 

If ToR was Communist Russia, PvP would be human rights.

 

Companions

Companions were lauded by Bioware as being an evolutionary step as far as the genre is concerned. Unfortunately, they turned out to be glorified pets. They even have an ability pet bar just like in WoW! Some companions are interesting, some are boring. They do seem to break up the monotony of the often morose landscapes, but they are basically just pets.

 

Companion crafting is a great idea, however. Not having to worry about crafting stuff yourself is pretty neat. ToR sometimes surprises you with interesting and progressive innovations. Unfortunately, these moments are far and few in between.

 

DOA

Does The Old Republic have a chance? Not with what we see on day 1. No chance. Fanboys and fangirls may try to make a case for ToR, but the reality is that there is no case for ToR. There are many changes that need to make their way into ToR for it to be a competitor to 2nd tier MMOs, let alone giants like WoW.

 

UI mods have been requested since beta. A combat log has been requested since beta. There are absolutely no features that even begin to address the social element of the game: guild achievements, guild skill trees, etc. There's a need for competitive PvP, LFG finders, etc, etc. These shouldn't be post-release patches, this is 2012! These are basic elements of modern MMORPGs. I don' think ToR is finished.

 

The only reason ToR won't die in 6 months is "Bioware" and "Star Wars." Will these two names carry the burden for a year? Two? I doubt it. But then again, I could be wrong. http://warhammeronline.com/ is still going. Don't fool yourself though. It's dead.

 

You may berate me now, but don't forget this review 1 year down the line. ToR is dead. Long live Titan?

 

You, my friend, are an idiot.

[Rizick]

Please, I don't even want to attempt to defend against this absurd post. I'll come back in a year after WoW's sales have plummeted and SWToR rules the MMO world with an iron fist.

 

SWToR's number one competitor just released an expansion with kung-fo panda's, WoW is dead it just doesn't know it.

[DSPD]

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. For ToR, unfortunately, mostly the worst. This isn't my first review - I reviewed the game during the beta several times, but I was shunned by incredulous and overzealous fans. After all, it was "just" a beta. Well here we are, at the dawn of release - no longer in the beta. So where does this game stand in the grand scheme of things? How does it compare to WoW, SWG, Rift, GW2? Lets find out.

 

Who am I? I'm some dude that led a top-US CS:S team for many years, was a part of two top-10 WoW guilds, and played in several WoW Arena Tournies (including the CGS invitational) and many many CS tournaments, including the CPL. I also had a stint working for an indie game developer several years ago. I like to think that I know what I'm talking about, and usually, I do.

 

This is unnecessary and screams "LOOK AT ME!!!!! I'M A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE!"

 

Grats for you bud, I'm sure someone out there loves you.

[Septro]

Another WoW fanboy trying to achieve don't know what by writing a 0 value "review" from the narrow point of view of a WoW fanboy. Please, go back to your top 10 guilds in other games and don't waste your time (not to mention the time of others). I could go to WoW forum and write a few pages of why I couldn't stand that brainless, ugly game more than 20 minutes. Could compare it to countless older MMO's and say that WoW didn't invent any single new feature and other games already had all these things and even better (yet it shouldn't matter, because MMO is MMO, just like FPS is FPS, can't expect much inventions from a genre that is already shaped many years ago). That the only "greatness" of the game is hidden behind 2 words - "Blizzard" and "Warcraft" (combination of "Bioware" with "Star Wars" means something to lots of people as well by the way). I wouldn't even mention the graphical style that can appeal only to 5 years old ******* or older people with no taste. It would be a waste of time for me and for people on that forum, because when people want to read a review of the game, they'll go to one of the respected websites whose job is to write unbiased, reasonable and mature reviews.

If you had some of your very own expectations about the game and the game didn't meet them, no one need to know about this, except for your close friends or your mother who is supposedly giving you money to buy games. Just go and tell her - "Mom, seems like I wasted your money on the game I don't like". Don't go here and type so much nonsense that is not interesting to anyone but yourself or someone from the top 10 guilds in WoW. Cheers.

 

'nuff said

 

OP - you just got pawned!