vimm Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I hate stealth scan, lol. It pulls me every time if someone knows how to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BambulaGTS Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) Stealth scan is handy for the stealth killers in EC, but in PVP it's hit or miss, but 99% of the time is a miss because you can barely ever hit anything. The only time it's really useful is if a sage next to me wants to screw around and use noble sacrifice to pad his stats. It may work as a deterrent, but I'm not too confident about that. Stealth scan should at least stun the stealther if you manage to hit one. Stealth scan is great. The only thing that suck - is players who never ever touch this instant button while it has only 20 sec CD. Try using it on CD, it is fun. Moreover, even without stealth scan I manage to pull people out of stealth with AoE's because I know all places where they usually hide or predict where they go. Edited September 7, 2012 by BambulaGTS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banderal Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 You know (well, obviously not) the odd thing for me is that I've just started noticing people dropping scan to knock me out of stealth when I try to escape a combat that is going badly. I've had a Sent for months, and a Mara before that since launch, and I hardly remember anyone doing this until maybe a couple weeks ago when I noticed it suddenly happinging quite regularly. The first time I realized that it happened I thought to myself, "wow, that guy is really good!". I also have a scoundrel healer and a shadow tank, and people do it to me more on the shadow than any other. Maybe becuase their brain more readly connects "shadow" to "stealth" and they are ready for it. Or maybe because I tend to try to escape more on the shadow - on the scoundrel I stay visible to give that last bit of healing (probably not so smart). Even with stealthy toons myself, I kinda like the idea someone had above of making the scan invisible to the other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 It's not hard as a stealther to predict where the stealth scan will go. Moving unpredictable is quite easy. If you simply follow the principle of not going in the same direction you used to when you were visible, it's already a more than 75% chance that you will not be busted. I think 75% is being a little optimistic that so many people can't figure out dropping a stealth scan in the opposite direction they saw a stealther heading when they vanished. <.< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keypek Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) Stealth scan is awesome! Q-bind it so you can drop it at an instant when needed. I pop so many people out of stealth it's crazy. And like others have said it is pretty much an anti-escape tool for stealthers. Have it bound to my naga and if I'm fighting a stealth or marrauder that tries to escape by stealth that stealth scan goes down instantly and they never get out of range fast enough and then they die. And go tank spec and it will stun stealth when you pop them. Edited September 7, 2012 by Keypek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macroecon Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I have stated repeatedly that the problem with stealth is that there is no risk. Without any risk, there can't be any good return to stealth toons or they become overpowered. Which is exactly what will happen in 1.4. What SHOULD happen is that there should be risk in using stealth. The Stealth Scan radius should be visible only to players on the friendly team. AND if the Stealth Scan uncovers an enemy stealther it should incur some penalties to them (snare, increase damage vulnerability, etc.). Now there is risk to being stealthed. Now you can give stealthed toons increased attacks because they are incurring risk. But currently BW doesn't understand the concept of risk vs. return. So they simply vacillate between buffs and nerfs to stealth classes, none of which strike the right balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asphen Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 It works great. You just can't me a mouse-clicking frog licker in order to use it well. You need to be faster than that. Working as intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metalmac Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I have stated repeatedly that the problem with stealth is that there is no risk. Without any risk, there can't be any good return to stealth toons or they become overpowered. Which is exactly what will happen in 1.4. What SHOULD happen is that there should be risk in using stealth. The Stealth Scan radius should be visible only to players on the friendly team. AND if the Stealth Scan uncovers an enemy stealther it should incur some penalties to them (snare, increase damage vulnerability, etc.). Now there is risk to being stealthed. Now you can give stealthed toons increased attacks because they are incurring risk. But currently BW doesn't understand the concept of risk vs. return. So they simply vacillate between buffs and nerfs to stealth classes, none of which strike the right balance. Really you have got to be kidding! I only have one stealth class a Healer and this would result in making impossible to do my job as once they see me I have 4 guys on me now. So your solution is to ensure that even if I try to get away it is impossible? Really what is the risk for using Stealth Scan if you get free kills what risk is yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macroecon Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Really you have got to be kidding! I only have one stealth class a Healer and this would result in making impossible to do my job as once they see me I have 4 guys on me now. So your solution is to ensure that even if I try to get away it is impossible? Really what is the risk for using Stealth Scan if you get free kills what risk is yours? Talk about whining. So you expect to be able to do your healing job while remaining invisible? The cost of using a Stealth Scan is the opportunity cost of around 1 GCD. A GCD which instead of planting a Stealth Scan on an already unstealthed and weakened enemy (as some foolishly suggested) could be used to finish him off with a real attack. What is riskless right now is the approach by a stealth dps towards his target. You can not make a stealth dps have riskless stealth attributes AND parity in damage output while unstealthed. That is a Pareto superior platform which by definition is not balanced. And yet from the dev notes, that is explicitly what they set out to accomplish. This demonstrates an acute lack of understanding about play balance. Finally, I'd just turn the multiple claims that Stealth Scan is working properly on its head. If it is such a great tool, why aren't there more Merc dps? Oh, that's right. It's widely acknowledged as the worst subclass in the game, and Stealth Scan does nothing to improve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChickenWangs Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Have a bind for stealth scan, immediately hit and click when target disappears, profit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulzii Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 it would have much more use if the aoe footprint was not visible to the other team. then you can use it strategically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metalmac Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 (edited) Talk about whining. So you expect to be able to do your healing job while remaining invisible? The cost of using a Stealth Scan is the opportunity cost of around 1 GCD. A GCD which instead of planting a Stealth Scan on an already unstealthed and weakened enemy (as some foolishly suggested) could be used to finish him off with a real attack. What is riskless right now is the approach by a stealth dps towards his target. You can not make a stealth dps have riskless stealth attributes AND parity in damage output while unstealthed. That is a Pareto superior platform which by definition is not balanced. And yet from the dev notes, that is explicitly what they set out to accomplish. This demonstrates an acute lack of understanding about play balance. Finally, I'd just turn the multiple claims that Stealth Scan is working properly on its head. If it is such a great tool, why aren't there more Merc dps? Oh, that's right. It's widely acknowledged as the worst subclass in the game, and Stealth Scan does nothing to improve it. I never implied that in any way. I said to get away, can you read? And I do not need a attack as I am a healer, the guy is fixated on one aspect of Stealth only. Edited September 8, 2012 by Metalmac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 I actually think it works quite well as is... actually has a larger radius than what is shown in game. Quick reaction time on the move pretty much screws any stealth class from escaping a fight or attacking from stealth. I'm going to be the first one to say it... Working as intended. stealth scan is fine for dealing with maras/sins/ops that you are already in combat with. it's not 100% effective, but it shouldn't be. you have to make an educated guess about where they're going and when they'll be there. that's fine. however, the ability is terrible as a pre-combat utility. for example, you could stand right in the center of the scan and still be mezz'd by any stealther. the cd on stealth scan, even with spec'd into a reduced cd, does not allow for continuous reapplication. so all a stealthy has to do is wait for the scan to disappear and then nail you with his stealth opener. to be honest, snipers/gunslingers have a more effective "stealth deterrent"; it's that aoe dot they drop on the ground (dunno what it's called), but they can drop it on a node and effectively prevent anyone from capping while he, himself, is off fighting somewhere else. and that is obviously applicable to more than just deterring stealth classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lastrights Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 what would make stealth scan effective is if they made it like stealth. You cant see the opposing team stealthers so the opposing teams stealthers shouldnt be able to see your stealth scan. That would balance the ability and make these ganking stealthers think about how they play the class rather than I can just run in do a hit and run. Not to mention the shadows/assassins that like to come up and stun you then run away. This would actually make stealth detection worth spending the points in if there werent a big dance floor display going on saying hey dont step here. If the opposing stealthers couldnt see the scanners then it would actually work as intended and you might actually catch someone in stealth once in a while. I mean really it is not like the scan area is that big to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vimm Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 If anything, stealth scan needs a nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaccalo Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Talk about whining. So you expect to be able to do your healing job while remaining invisible? The cost of using a Stealth Scan is the opportunity cost of around 1 GCD. A GCD which instead of planting a Stealth Scan on an already unstealthed and weakened enemy (as some foolishly suggested) could be used to finish him off with a real attack. What is riskless right now is the approach by a stealth dps towards his target. You can not make a stealth dps have riskless stealth attributes AND parity in damage output while unstealthed. That is a Pareto superior platform which by definition is not balanced. And yet from the dev notes, that is explicitly what they set out to accomplish. This demonstrates an acute lack of understanding about play balance. Finally, I'd just turn the multiple claims that Stealth Scan is working properly on its head. If it is such a great tool, why aren't there more Merc dps? Oh, that's right. It's widely acknowledged as the worst subclass in the game, and Stealth Scan does nothing to improve it. Obviously, you've never played a cloaking class, so your opinion on how unfair they are is irrelevant. I play cloaking classes AND a class with Stealth Scan, and have a decent knowledge on how to play them (meaning: I suck, but I'm not terrible). As my Scoundrel, I must use every trick I have in order to pull off an escape (but is, honestly, the most fun because of that fact). As a Vanguard, it's pretty simple to pull cloakers out of stealth with DoTs or Stealth Scan (too easy, in fact). Now with a tanking cloaker (Shadow/Assassin), I agree it's pretty ridiculously easy to do a ton of damage, tank, then get out of combat. But only because they're a tiny bit overpowered at the moment. My Assassin is really dang fun but I know that it's because I'm OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Captain- Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I play a concealment operative and they are a ton of fun but if you think staying in stealth is easy then try it before making judgements, have you been in a WZ recently?! Ever noticed the tons of AOEs going off all over? And maybe you didn't see the patch notes making stealthers easy to spot from the front. In stealth movement is really slow so getting the absolute correct positioning only ever happens if some idiot is standing dead still on his own. Not to mention that once out of stealth operatives DPS is not great and survivanility is worse. So stealth is no way overpowered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGLYMRJ Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 stealth scan is fine for dealing with maras/sins/ops that you are already in combat with. it's not 100% effective, but it shouldn't be. you have to make an educated guess about where they're going and when they'll be there. that's fine. however, the ability is terrible as a pre-combat utility. for example, you could stand right in the center of the scan and still be mezz'd by any stealther. the cd on stealth scan, even with spec'd into a reduced cd, does not allow for continuous reapplication. so all a stealthy has to do is wait for the scan to disappear and then nail you with his stealth opener. to be honest, snipers/gunslingers have a more effective "stealth deterrent"; it's that aoe dot they drop on the ground (dunno what it's called), but they can drop it on a node and effectively prevent anyone from capping while he, himself, is off fighting somewhere else. and that is obviously applicable to more than just deterring stealth classes. I completely agree with what was said... but I still say working as intended. Def not much of a stealth deterrent by any means. But it shouldn't be... The closest thing I have to a stealth class is that few seconds on my marauder. But I still think this ability works as it should. The CD is fairly short and stealth classes SHOULD be able to start a fight from stealth and get that first blow. IMO anyways. Sometimes I catch on who is really bad or just catch one with luck but... I think it works fine as is. Not intended for pre-combat I would think. More of a... gonna force that stealth guy to go this way or keep him from getting away kinda thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTomorrow Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) UGLYMRJ since you are such an adamant defender of stealth is balanced opinion, dont you think we have too much stealth in this game? It feels like devs had a lack of imagiation creating 6 different spcs that can use stealth. Its too much. The sole fact that they have vanish, +10 stealth and out of combat mezz for both asassins and operatives makes me think that even the class design was rushed. And it is way too good for WZ objectives. Edited September 10, 2012 by NoTomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oredith Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 UTGLYMRJ since you are such an adamant defender of stealth is balanced opinion, dont you think we have too much stealth in this game? It feels like devs had a lack of imagiation creating 6 different spcs that can use stealth. Its too much. The sole fact that they have vanish, +10 stealth and out of combat mezz for both asassins and operatives makes me think that even the class design was rushed. And it is way too good for WZ objectives. stealth adds the element of surprise, but at the cost of survival. i think it's actually well balanced. they're good for sneaking up on objective, yes, but once they come out of stealth, they're very exposed. 2 defender vs. 2 stealth attackers - the 2 stealthers can only coordinate enough to nuke down 1 person in stunlock. more than enough time for the defenders to call in, and for the 2nd player to CC/kite the stealthers until backup arrives. 2 defenders vs. 3+ stealthers - the opposing team will be very weak somewhere else if they are giving up 3+ people to stealth to an objective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTomorrow Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) Perhaps i was wrong about never asking one simple question. Assuming perfect play on both sides, am I as a sniper supposed to win a duel ith a stealthers that opens on me? I am having a feeling that devs wanted it o be at best a stalemate with no ways for me kill these freaks if they play it right. I do have good reaction and knowledge and certainly dueled more asassins than any other class but i just cannot cease my endless hatred for these sealth mechanics givig them an edge and not allowing me to punish them when they screw up simply becauase of vanish. Edited September 10, 2012 by NoTomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oredith Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 am I as a sniper supposed to win a duel ith a stealthers that opens on me? pretty sure that's exactly how it's suppose to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTomorrow Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 pretty sure that's exactly how it's suppose to work. For some reasons, i believe that most of those stealthers that i killed was simply because those were terrible players while playing perfectly would always mean them winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGLYMRJ Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 UGLYMRJ since you are such an adamant defender of stealth is balanced opinion, dont you think we have too much stealth in this game? It feels like devs had a lack of imagiation creating 6 different spcs that can use stealth. Its too much. The sole fact that they have vanish, +10 stealth and out of combat mezz for both asassins and operatives makes me think that even the class design was rushed. And it is way too good for WZ objectives. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who DOES NOT play a stealth character other than the few seconds I get on my marauder as I said earlier. No... I don't feel as if there is too much stealth in the game nor is it anything that bothers me. I like the element it adds to game play. Out of 16 AC's there are really only 2 stealth classes. I hardly see that as a problem. I find it funny actually that you're complaining about too much stealth when there are only 2 of 16 that are true stealth classes and one of them is rarely used... From your other comment about being a sniper tho... I can understand why YOU are annoyed with stealth. I'm sure many snipers are. Just as with my marauder I'm annoyed with snipers... and on my sorc I'm annoyed with vengeance jugs. Hardly see it as a problem though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oredith Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 For some reasons, i believe that most of those stealthers that i killed was simply because those were terrible players while playing perfectly would always mean them winning. there's no shortage of terrible players in this game. i'm actually considering starting a fraps project featuring my lvl 26 scrapper - not to show any skill on my end, but to showcase the really terrible keyboard turners and 1st person players that are all over the 10-49 bracket. i don't notice them as much at lvl 50 because they're usually dead really fast.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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