OK. Premades, they are a problem, I get that.

[kweassa]

I said that you can get your BM gear without winning a single match now. You only need to get 1 medal (preferably more). You cant get 1 medal? Seriously? It is not so hard.

 

That's how sharp the disparity is when you get a WZ horder premades fighting regular level pugs. I don't know which heaven you are up on, but do try to look down on the ground level from time to time and see how the majority of the population - mediocre level players - suffer.

 

Again, I've seen 600-0 shutouts with 3~4 people getting no medals (no, they weren't deserters), same in Novare Coast and Voidstar, and not just once. I've even seen some poor players being ganked straight away from the spawn point in Huttball.

 

Granted, these cases are less common than the usual cases where people would get some commendations, but against premade groups (and good ones, too), people are simply shut off. People don't play hours and hours just to get brutalized.

 

 

Before 1.2 you had to win to get BM (yea, you could buy BM comms for 1000/1000, but it was like 6-8 times more expensive). You will with time decrease gear discrepancy, because you will get your BM stuff easily (even losing everything). What will not decrease is skill/communication discrepancy. Of course, there is this abnormal idea to call some friends, use voice communication and queue as premade yourself...

 

...or, simply get rid of premades from normal WZs, and shift them to their own, comparable level of "skill/communication" where the discrepancy is less.

 

Like I said, unless people make premades to purposefully screw pugs and seek easy competition, splitting pugs and premades to normal WZs and Rated ones is a win-win scenario for most. Premades will fight other premades in rated, pugs will fight pugs in normal.

[_Scattered_]

Gear disparity?

 

Full BM is ridiculously easy to acquire and it is competitive with WH gear. Blaming losses on gear right now is as bad excuse when it is more likely you are being beat by better players.

[PloGreen]

That's how sharp the disparity is when you get a WZ horder premades fighting regular level pugs. I don't know which heaven you are up on, but do try to look down on the ground level from time to time and see how the majority of the population - mediocre level players - suffer.

 

Again, I've seen 600-0 shutouts with 3~4 people getting no medals (no, they weren't deserters), same in Novare Coast and Voidstar, and not just once. I've even seen some poor players being ganked straight away from the spawn point in Huttball.

 

Granted, these cases are less common than the usual cases where people would get some commendations, but against premade groups (and good ones, too), people are simply shut off. People don't play hours and hours just to get brutalized.

 

 

 

 

...or, simply get rid of premades from normal WZs, and shift them to their own, comparable level of "skill/communication" where the discrepancy is less.

 

Like I said, unless people make premades to purposefully screw pugs and seek easy competition, splitting pugs and premades to normal WZs and Rated ones is a win-win scenario for most. Premades will fight other premades in rated, pugs will fight pugs in normal.

 

"get rid of premades" so i can farm gear faster.

 

People dont make premades to "screw pugs", you are of no consequence to them. Most of the time they are fighting with 4 other people that are in fact random players.

 

Let me ask you this - what if you happen to be one of those players? I take it you quit in disgust that there is a team of 4 friends on your side, winning you a few extra comms.

[kweassa]

You shouldnt be learning anything at 50, you should have worked out the warzones by then, most pvpers I know did. The problem was the same people crying about premades were crying about 10-50 pvp. Understandbly that got changed to the situation now. Then what happens is you have a situation where 10-49 is somewhat of a "pvp bubble", its more casual people have less abilities and people "enjoy it more". Then they hit 50 and the reality hits them - end game pvp is a whole other game. They want it to be like 10-49 where everyone had a shot, it felt more even to them. But there is gear progression involved.

 

So casual players are not supposed to be able to enjoy pvp after lv50?

 

Gear progression is only a part of the problem. People have different speeds of adjusting to the learning curve, and some people may only begin PvP in the latter levels. Some people may never reach beyond certain point in skill.

 

I fully understand that it is impossible to cater for all of these people. I never suggested we need to.

 

There is only one suggestion, and that revolves around separating people from a level of competition they cannot handle, and never had any chance to handle in the first place. Learning from competition - just like gear progression - is to be done gradually. You don't pit little league toddlers with major league millionaires and expect them to learn anything from a crushing defeat.

 

 

The truth is end game top tier pvp is not like 10-49 and it never will be, and Bioware have done alot in regards to making it easier for new 50's to make that transition. If they make cross-server queues this is less of a problem but for now, since this is in fact pre-season, rateds dont exist yet, and the server populations are not that great I think they should just leave it be,

 

After all there is nothing stopping you from doing the same but you really.

 

This is not an assumption, but an established fact. People, refuse to play a game which they have no chance at all. That's why you see so many whiners complaining about balance and skill and all that stuff in these boards, and like many, I also dismiss those whines as being unnecessary and unlearned. Like you said, between the long road of lv10 to 49, people have a chance to learn that stuff amongst more or less evenly distributed player schematics.

 

However, fighting a dominating premade team that does not go away, is something that is impossible to handle in the first place. If you know PvP, then you know the "premade" in question in this thread is not just a random or casual bunch of people on voicechat. The facts may seem elusive in some timezones, but in others, there is a very high possibility of pugs meeting such premades for hours straight.

 

They say that the highest level of competition is monopoly - just a destruction of competition itself so the guys on the top don't need to compete at all, and simply be guaranteed to win. That's what's happening here, and that's the only thing needed to be looked into.

[Zeaza]

So casual players are not supposed to be able to enjoy pvp after lv50?

 

Gear progression is only a part of the problem. People have different speeds of adjusting to the learning curve, and some people may only begin PvP in the latter levels. Some people may never reach beyond certain point in skill.

 

how do you suggest we fix pvp for the "causual player"? , the causual player you are talking about seems to be very eager to win, that is why all the "causual players" are complaining so much" but if he is so eager to win, then why doesnt he do something easy like make his own premade? and then get the upperhand against even worse causual player? lol, even more lol is now you get the same reward that the winning team got before, but you are loosing, (dont even have to be in a team going for objective.) you can just stroll around doing whatever u want, ruin it for the other players who want to be objective and win, u will still get a high reward. so stop the whining or start playing with other people. , or go play skyrim

Edited April 21, 2012 by Zeaza

[Kaarsa]

I wear full bm and have been for awhile- thanks. And for my vanguard the set boni give 15%crit chance on stockstrike and reduce cd of tenacy.

If you really think that 700hp and 100 surge do offset that *shrug* And i never mentioned champ/cent so you might want to read before assuming things that aren't mentioned.

 

You compared bm and recruit, nothing else. No word of champion or centurion there...

 

What gear you can have if you dont have BM/WH? Before - chap,cent. Now - recruit. Is recruit a great set. No. Is it way better than anything but BM/WH? Yes. Was I able to kill people right after dinging 50 with my recruit set and 3 BM pieces bought for saved comms? Yes. Was some of them Battlemasters? Yes they were. I dont see a problem.

 

My set boni is 15sec cd on undying rage and 5m range on execute. It is a worthwile trade, especially considering really low amount of surge on this set. 15% crit chance on 1 ability against something around 8% crit damage on everything? I take surge any day of the week;) (of course it depends on amount of surge you have already).

 

That's how sharp the disparity is when you get a WZ horder premades fighting regular level pugs. I don't know which heaven you are up on, but do try to look down on the ground level from time to time and see how the majority of the population - mediocre level players - suffer.

 

Again, I've seen 600-0 shutouts with 3~4 people getting no medals (no, they weren't deserters), same in Novare Coast and Voidstar, and not just once. I've even seen some poor players being ganked straight away from the spawn point in Huttball.

 

Well, I recently joined a Voidstar in progress. Complete rofl stomp, enemy was farming 2 of us under our spawn. I got my 1 medal (2,5k hit) just fine, got 40 few comms for this 3 or 4 minutes (and I play dps, tank could just guard the other player for 3 quick medals for example). I remind you - 2v8. If you are not getting a single medal, then there was NO contribution on your side. You shoud not be rewarded then.

[shirayuki]

This is how my server goes premades start queing other faction stops queing causing 30 min plus between que times and 5v8 matches where the premade is on the team of 8 and this is durring prime time

[_Scattered_]

However, fighting a dominating premade team that does not go away, is something that is impossible to handle in the first place. If you know PvP, then you know the "premade" in question in this thread is not just a random or casual bunch of people on voicechat. The facts may seem elusive in some timezones, but in others, there is a very high possibility of pugs meeting such premades for hours straight.

 

This comes down to losing to better players. If you formed your own premade the result would be the same.

 

So basically you don't want some of the best players on the server deciding they want to group with each other to get wins.

 

This game should encourage grouping with your friends so by restricting premades to a group queue you are dooming casual players who just want to pvp with their friends to being farmed by this so called "dominant" premade. The end result the group queue becomes dead and no one can pvp with each other, not to mention most servers cant really support 2 separate queues.

 

No matter how much of a problem a dominating premade happens to be being able to pvp with your friends is more important.

 

There is no reason why premades should not be the standard for pvp, learn to play mmo's, get some guildies and pvp. It would make the game a whole lot more competitive.

[Cowflab]

Ohh i just want too add that when i go premade, we also lose to non-premade groups that supports each other.

 

Again, team work.

 

 

First of all, the variation you're looking for is to. Secondly, your premade is bad. Plain and simple. I play with a group of interchangeable guildies of about 12 that always have 2-3 groups going at all times other than early am's, and I can truthfully say we have never lost to a random PuG. Voice comm is key. Not being in a gaggle of gooslings.

[Didy_Kush]

Premades are a problem because mmos are a single player game.

[Raansu]

The problem is the queue system, not premades. I've noticed that whenever I solo queue I'm always going against premades, but whenever my team is online we seem to be always queued against pugs. There is something jacked up with the queue system. Despite this, at the end of the day though premades just need to be separated from pug queues as I'm tired of beating on pugs. Although I'd prefer to wait for cross server pvp before that happens else we'd probably end up waiting for awhile for a match or fighting the same 3 teams over and over again... I'd like a challenge, but fighting the same team over and over = boring.

[Jatne]

You know, pre-1.2, I used to think that premades weren't a problem at all, and the inability to come up with premades to counter premades, was simply the player's fault....

[/QUote]

 

4 people, yes the grand total of FOUR people is a 'premade' in this game. If 4 yes FOUR people cannot get on a teamspeak/ventrlo server then they do not DESERVE a win. Period.

 

...until I realized that when the disparity between general performance between the two factions reaches a certain point, the existence of premade groups - especially the ones with no life so tend to log into the game for hours and hours - simply kills off all attempts for other people to PvP.

[/QUote]

 

Good players, playing regularly ENCOURAGE competion. They don't stifle it. If anything, the biggest killer of trashy, scripted PvP s lack of a challenge.

 

How weak willed must a human being be, to be put off by losing a few games? Really?

 

This leads to a hefty chunk of the general population on the other faction simply not being able to get any real rewards, and thus slowing their improvement of gear/specs, which just fuels the vicious cycle.

[/QUote]

 

One medal, yes one medal gives rewards. If the gear scale was EXPONENTIAL, YES this would be a problem. BUT as WAR HERO is the current highest tier of gear and there isn't likely to be anything new in for three or four months... there is ZERO excuse not to be able to gear up, even through 100% losses. It will just take less time.

 

Let us not forget, they just removed the PvP Level requirement for Battlemaster gear and made it possible to obtain an entire set in a couple of weeks.

 

Things were less evident pre-1.2, but now, the disparity in gear/spec/performance between factions are on a (very) steep rise, and although anecdotal at best, experience seems to suggest that a lot of people are just quitting the match in the presence of premades. 600-0 Alderaan matches, 3 bunkers to 0 Novare Coast, people just giving up on ball handling and going for kills in Huttball ... all of these existed before 1.2, but not to this level and frequency.

[/QUote]

 

Less evident pre-1.2? You missed the EPIC QQ threads "ALL EMPIRE IS BM GEAR FROM SPLOITS ON ILUM"? Gear was always linear, infact you were capped to two bags per day and nine BM bags per week. Regardless of faction.

 

Performance is related most largely to coordination. You cannot blame game mechanics for people being too feeble to team up. I am sorry, but, this is the epitome of pathetic excuse.

 

Spec... lolwat? I wasn't aware talent trees only became available by having gear. Any any spec is viable at any gear level, if you play to your limitations.

 

Having being on the receiving end of a 7-hour continuous loss with 0 wins - which is more than one can simply brush off as "streak of bad luck" - it made me think: "If it is this bad in a server with comparable Rep-Imp population balance, just how bad is it in other servers where Imp population swamp the Reps?"

[/QUote]

 

WOW, (loving more anecdotal evidence) Let's just start by sayng, that IF your losses are ENTIRELY related to the other team being better geared AND the other team ALWAYS - every game for SEVEN hours running a premade... maybe it's a good time to go and get some daylight.

 

OR

 

Maybe in those SEVEN hours, you could have said "HEY BRO, WANT TO GET IN VENT WITH ME?" No? I thought not. Nerf teamwork, much easier fix!

 

Premades can be dealt with premades. But what if one side, one population does not have enough people to come up with a counter-premade? Are they to be just left in darkness, and just hopelessly wait until some Imps just feel pity, and decide to come over to the Rep population to try their hands out? [/QUote]

 

1) They have stated Cross-Server are to be implemented. 2) If one FACTION can't field FOUR players or EIGHT players to fill a WARZONE your problems go a LOT deeper than premades. 3) If you let yourself be farmed for SEVEN hours, why the **** would I want to have anything to do with you?

 

I would definately fault the inability of the constantly losing side to come up with a PvP-oriented guild/group that constantly plays PvP matches - were the conditions not so drastic and lopsided. However, we're living in an not-so-ideal world. Population gaps exist, and noone can blame people who fall under despair, and just give it up, in the face of constant vicious, brutal loss.

 

Absence of corrective action, just leaving the current state under the whim of the "invisible hand" will only lead the game into a reality which the underdogs will simply quit the PvP aspect of the game forver, and thus, ultimately will pull ing down the PvP in a continious cycle of population-loss -- I've seen this happening in other MMOGs, and I'm beginning to smell something familiar brewing up in SWTOR as well.

[/QUote]

 

Not SO drastic? Really? 60+ Commendations for a loss as opposed to 100+ is SO drastic it's IMPOSSIBLE for ANY Republic players to gear up AT ALL? I call bs bro.

 

I read through the rest of your post, but, to me it sounds like you need to take a break bro. You are obviously not enjoying the game.

 

A few facts for you:

The gear gap is lower now than it has ever been.

It is easier and faster to farm gear now than it has ever been.

It is esier to be competitive now than ever before.

Games that start with less than 8 players are nothing to do with premades.

People who refuse to work together do not deserve to win at TEAM sports.

Preventing TEAM play in a COMMUNITY centred game is utterly stupid, not EVERYONE wants to do rated - why should they be punished so casuals and bads who can't field FOUR players can "roll the dice"?

 

I, personally rerolled from Empire to Republic to face the EXACT odds that have you creating TL:DR threads to vent your obviously bleeding heart to the community.

Edited April 21, 2012 by LexiCazam
Inappropriate content

[Tourne]

Yep, prior to 1.2 I really didn't notice the premmies so much in lvl 50 wz's. Now though, even more so during extended hours of the day...all I see is certain premmes fully geared completely mopping up and taking advantage that they are guaranteed to be facing a pug with:

 

A) Lesser numbers at start

B) Gear disparagement

C) AC Balance

D) Random Botters/quitters/AFK'rs

 

 

You still had to deal with it before- but now it's even more prevalent since the guys suffering gear gap frankly seem to bail within less than a minute. It's all a landslide after that- the non baddies are forced to last 5v8...the random droppers pop back in to drop once more. Even the best pug players are having issues surviving outnumbered almost 2 to 1. It's hard enough to do that against another pug- let alone a premmie...

[Bartes]

i think your problem is with gear disparity NOT premades.

 

I am not sure about this. Yesterday I joined pug vs premade WZ (I was on the pug side) and had time to incpect my team. Almost all of them had BM gear and 1 even had 2 pieces of WH. Enough to say that lowest HP on our side was 17,5k so I assumed we had a good team. It was Voidstar and we managed to get to bridges then time ended, on second round they got first door in like 45 secs.

 

So premade with communication is the key here. It was always like this in any MMO I played and will not change anytime soon. SWTOR system is worse because it starts matches with 5 vs 8 and in objective based WZs it is auto loss.

[Faeldawn]

Premades vs Premades, PuG's vs PuG's then everyone is happy, surely?

 

Not a chance because most premades suck balls and have no chance against a well organised, geared and drilled enemy premade. The concept of premades being by default a great team is utter crap, seen many useless premade groups get stomped by pugs. Thing is, premades are often just a group of friends, there is no guarantee they are any good or even think they are (or claim to be) any good.

 

While being farmed by the few decent premades is a whole lot of no fun, beating them badly with a pug is equally joyless as it just leads to a barrage of abuse that no-one can really take much satisfaction in.

 

This game has real problems, this is not one of them.

[kweassa]

how do you suggest we fix pvp for the "causual player"? , the causual player you are talking about seems to be very eager to win, that is why all the "causual players" are complaining so much" but if he is so eager to win, then why doesnt he do something easy like make his own premade? and then get the upperhand against even worse causual player?

 

There could be a variety of things to consider.

 

(1) Many complaints coming from casual players, are unsubstantiated, as seen from the variety of complaints you can see in this very forum. That much is true. Yet, not all of those complaints are without basis, as there are some factors which is presumably "impossible to counter" - and simply being forced to "man up, or quit" is not the answer.

 

(2) Making premades is not easy as it seems. Not everyone is a part of a guild, nor may he/she want to enter a guild at all in the first place. As these choices are made by oneself, admittedly the consequences are also to be met by oneself. But again, if the consequences so much outweigh the actual decision, then one must wonder if a certain choice, or a path must be forced upon a player to more or less enjoy PvP.

 

Remember - no one is asking to give casual players, or the lesser skilled players a free win. It is merely about finding an acceptable level of game matching to help enjoy it in a bit more balanced environment, rather than looking away from a situation where people may decide to just lose all hope in PvPing. I myself, have a lot of PvP experience and can more or less take it in and accept the outcome, but I can't stop people from just quitting from the game.

 

...lol, even more lol is now you get the same reward that the winning team got before, but you are loosing, (dont even have to be in a team going for objective.) you can just stroll around doing whatever u want, ruin it for the other players who want to be objective and win, u will still get a high reward. so stop the whining or start playing with other people. , or go play skyrim

 

People play PvP for a lot of reasons, but none of it can be the one, sole reason of it all. People like to win. Even if the cannot win, they wish to at least attain some satisfaction from the illusion that they "had a chance to win, or the outcome could have been different."

 

The only times where they really find it difficult to bear, is when the competition is so hopelessly outmatched that the entire WZ experience becomes nothing but a 15~30 minute downhill of being steamrolled again and again.

 

I mean, I'd understand the objections on the grounds that it is too harsh for people who enjoy gaming with friends, or etc etc.. but the comments such as above do nothing but to give even more reasons to suspect that some people simply make premades to grief pug players and horde easy kills and easy wins.

 

I mean, if the premades are such elitists and adore competition in PvP , then clearly the very existence of premades in PvP becomes self-contradictory. By making a regular PvP group in zones full of casual players and pugs, the only thing they achieve is non-competition, straight forward steamrolling.

[Nomiematiko]

PVP focused on gear grind = mistake, gear should be for the looks only, but to many people dont understand it, ihave full BM/WH but i would rather everyone had same gear stats, but 1000's diferent looking sets

[Vaipyr]

noone can blame people who fall under despair, and just give it up, in the face of constant vicious, brutal loss.

What a crock of new age hippy crap. You can absolutely blame those people for being weak and pathetic. There's winners and there's losers. If they can't suck it up like goddamned men and take their losses with some dignity then to hell with them.

 

I would encourage PvP centered guilds or groups try to shift around and move sides (or at least make alter ego characters on the opposing faction to make it easier to jump sides),

 

BW needs to give us the ability to just "create a mirror" of our level 50 toon regardless of faction then. The guild has switched from Imp to Pub, then from server to a different server to bolster the pvp pop, then from Pub to Imp (the server we swapped to had far more pubs than Imps for a change). I'll be damned if I'm going to go through levelling again. Sick of it. Levelling is ok the first time, but that's it. Period. If the population has a faction imbalance later on, tough ****. Not going to go through the trouble of levelling again, crafting again, grinding gear again. **** that noise.

[YanksfanJP]

I play Republic on a fairly balanced server. I've already started leveling two Imperial characters to prepare for cross-server queues because once that happens, I can kiss my competitive games good bye as we're now at the mercy of the terribly outgeared and outclassed Republic that's on most of the other servers. Welcome to farmville.

[Jatne]

I am not sure about this. Yesterday I joined pug vs premade WZ (I was on the pug side) and had time to incpect my team. Almost all of them had BM gear and 1 even had 2 pieces of WH. Enough to say that lowest HP on our side was 17,5k so I assumed we had a good team. It was Voidstar and we managed to get to bridges then time ended, on second round they got first door in like 45 secs.

 

So premade with communication is the key here. It was always like this in any MMO I played and will not change anytime soon. SWTOR system is worse because it starts matches with 5 vs 8 and in objective based WZs it is auto loss.

 

The games don't START with less than maximum people, games start with less than eight people ACCEPTING THE QUEUE.

[Jatne]

 

(2) Making premades is not easy as it seems. Not everyone is a part of a guild, nor may he/she want to enter a guild at all in the first place. As these choices are made by oneself, admittedly the consequences are also to be met by oneself. But again, if the consequences so much outweigh the actual decision, then one must wonder if a certain choice, or a path must be forced upon a player to more or less enjoy PvP.

people simply make premades to grief pug players and horde easy kills and easy wins.

 

I didn't bother reading any further than this. Welcome to MMORPGs also known as Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games.

 

If you want to solo, you do not belong in MMOs. I suggest you go play Skyrim. Not being in a guild is not an excuse. Period.

 

Society as a whole has a duty to protect the weak, not pander to them.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Jatne

[Sathid]

Society as a whole has a duty to protect the weak, not pander to them.

 

 

Lol thats part of the problem in this world,the stupids have out bred the smart ones,there is no natural predator anymore to get rid of idiots,but thats not related to this game lol.

[kweassa]

I didn't bother reading any further than this. Welcome to MMORPGs also known as Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games.

 

If you want to solo, you do not belong in MMOs. I suggest you go play Skyrim. Not being in a guild is not an excuse. Period.

 

Society as a whole has a duty to protect the weak, not pander to them.

 

And just who are you to dictate what a MMO shpould be?

 

Welcome to reality, where people other than your own definition actually do exist. Try stepping out of that lil' greenhouse of yours, and see what is like for the other side.

 

Being a part of a guild is an option for better game play experience, not a prerequisite to be able to enjoy a certain part of the game which should be as much accessible and viable to others who do not wish to mingle with guilds.

 

Nobody is asking for some kind of mega-buff to pugs here. Just separate the super duper high level of players so they can play with people their own size.

 

Or is there some specific reason you need a guild-based team behind your back to play against people that are already hard pressed as it is?

[teambff]

indeed, join the anti-premade legion, our cause is just.

premades have no place in pugs, let them fight each other and be together. leave our pugs alone.

they want "group activity" and to play with "their friends" , well.. let them do so... together, away from pugs.

[Roycerson]

Society as a whole has a duty to protect the weak, not pander to them.

 

I don't even understand what one is supposed to conclude about this topic from that sentence but....

 

 

"Society" is not a real thing. You can't touch it or talk to it. How can it have a duty? That's complete nonsense. No one has a duty to anyone or anything else they did not voluntarily agree to. It is an extremely hostile and unfriendly act to go around informing people of their duty that never agreed to as if you or anyone else has any business treating a free individual in that manner.