Marauders? What about Pyrotechs? (honest question regarding damage numbers)

[alanisUDL]

As an Operative healer in 2p WH, rest BM and full augments, I think its absurd the amount of damage Pyros put out. Even though dispel *some* of their abilities (why I can't some of their other 'tech' abilities is any man's guess), I find them significantly harder to heal and live through than Maruaders. The reapplication of the snare is utterly silly. I can cleanse it off three times in 5 seconds (via two toxic scans and evasion) and its still on me right after that again.

[vibenode]

Powerful classes tend to cancel each other out. Tankasin and Marauder are probably the top 2 DPS classes in the game right now, and they spend most of their time fighting each other. If you let a PT get the jump on you because you were fighting someone else, you might lose to the PT. But if you let a Tankasin or Marauder get the jump on you, you will DEFINITELY lose even if you're one of those two classes. It's pretty clear there's no shortage of either classes in WZ, and sure a lot of those guys are just FOTM players who are no threat, but it's not like you can tell this unless you memorzied the performance of every opponent you go against. So usually a class with good DPS but low survivality like Sniper/PT puts up impressive numbers because you really have no idea which of the 4 Marauders you faced is actually good and you can't take the chance that you ignored the 1 Marauder who was actually good.

 

When PTs do get singled out they get shut down rather easily, but due to the abundance of Tankasins/Marauders, it's rare for a PT to get singled out.

 

/agree with everything but your last statement. a good team will be looking for van / PT DPS because they are easier to kill than the tank sin /shadows and sent / maras...MUCH easier...I've been playing pyro since release and also have a mara. When my server died in march (The Kumumgah) I re-rolled from a PT to a Van as i'm very capable with that class and enjoy playing it throughly. But my biggest gripe atm is not even with a specific class...Its all the TTK spoiling the game atm...period!

[JediDuckling]

Hi there. Let me preface this by saying I play on average 15 Warzones per day during peak hours, more during weekends, so my observations in this post are based on my personal experience from my server's warzones (Dark Reaper). I also have a lv50 Assault Vanguard, Watchman Sentinel, Seer Sage all of whom (pre-1.2) are geared in mix-mash ranging from full Champ, to partial Cent-Champ, or Champ-BM. So I do speak from a pretty neutral point of view as I've experienced all the class archetypes.

 

Now I am seeing posts everywhere all over various forums talking about how OP Sentinels and Darkness (tank) Assassins are, so much that Sentinels are 3-shotting people (yeah right... lol). While I am not refuting that Sentinels and Assassins are performing very well atm, I am extremely surprised at the conspicuous lack of 'whine' posts regarding Pyro Powertechs (and its mirror class).

 

I play a fair amount of Warzones on a daily basis, and in every match that has a Pyrotech/Assaultguard present they are almost always topping damage meters by a fair margin (the difference is magnified in Voidstar). I have made a point to note who else were also present in the warzones, and my observations were that even with some of the best geared Marauders/Sents on my server present, Pyrotechs still dominate the damage done. If you play on Dark Reaper, you know what I am talking about if you've seen Vanni, Vaux or Illfoxyl and some other Pyros tearing people up doing up to 600-800k+ damage in Voidstars for example.

 

So I am curious, is it because Pyros/Vanguards are much less played than Marauders/Assassins that people just get owned less by them so they turn their attention to the classes that has more players? Because I can safely say that Pyros are in no way inferior to Marauders in terms of damage, I know this for a fact too since that is what I am playing as well.

 

If Marauders were 4/5 for damage, then Pyros would be 5/5 for me, while Tank Assassins would be 3.5/5 if they wear dps gear. This is balanced by defense, where Marauders have 4/5 again due to excellent defensive cooldowns, while Pyros have just heavy armor and a -25% to all damage putting them at 3/5 (the option to safely damage from range to avoid getting focused in a skirmish is a huge plus too), while Tank Assassins at 4.5/5 even while wearing dps gear.

 

Does anyone else share my observations or is my server an anomaly where Pyros are dominating damage done killing people in 1v1 in under 10 secs? (2 railshots for ~5-9k damage, 1 thermal detonator, 2-3 fire bursts, 1 IM = ~10secs). Annihilation Marauders are annoying as **** with their cooldowns, but at least they take time to do their damage and you have that possibility of outplaying them if you time your stuns/cooldowns right. But with Pyro Railshot burst it's just, 'oh hey I'm at 50% already from the initial salvo, 6secs later I am dead once Railshot goes off cooldown'.

 

Thoughts?

 

the pyro tech is on the same number length as maurauders and the funny thing is pyrotechs got a slight nerf in 1.2 and they are still doing silly dps.

 

bioware may as well just go back to making bumper stickers because this game is done.

[Hethroin]

Honest question: why are tank-spec sins even mentioned in this thread?

Tanksins' damage is about 70% that of a marauder, and their burst is non-existent. Compare the pyro to other DPS spec and classes, tanksins have nothing to do with this discussion. DPS classes in this game produce good burst damage, and good sustained damage, the tanksin is not one of these. Their burst only occurs when the target dips under 30% total health.

 

I will agree that the Pyro PT can do equal total damage as an Annihilation Mara.

 

The passive damage mitigation of a Pyro PT is 30.5% due to armor, 0% against internal and elemental damage.

The passive damage mitigation of a Mara is 25% due to armor, 0% against internal and elemental, some spec for additional 15% reduction vs AE.

 

The active mitigation list of a Pyro PT begins and ends with the 25% damage reduction shield on a less than two minute CD*. The marauder has a list that is longer than any other class's in the game including fully tank speced tanks.

 

The reason why you do not complain about Pyro PTs is because you can focus fire and kill them, rarely will their health rise while being fired upon. Once forced to pop the bubble they have no options. In a group setting the marauder has to be focus-fired from 100% down to 20% two or more times before he dies, the number increases if you're taking too long as force camo has a 45 second CD.

 

Pyro has better burst capacity due to TD, and their ability to time several hit to land together. In turn the marauder does better the longer the fight goes. This is due to several talents that stack to reduce DPS skill CDs and increase damage. Also unlike the PT the marauders' resource generation mechanics do not suffer from prolonged fighting.

 

*less than two minute CD: Pyros can spec to reduce the activated cooldown of the shield when they are hit.

[Pekish]

you have ranged abilities that are usefull WHEN SOMEONE APPROACH you but at least HALF of ur DPS come from ranged

 

how many ranged abilities does the maraduer has?

 

I think i know what I am talking about more then you do hiding behind a finger still show your lame excuse.

 

I totally see the front line full of Pyro they dont run arround trying to stay out of range... yeah rigth you make perfect sense they need uber defence ability to do that... obviously when someone close range with them they will use their close range ability and they may even run IN use the range ability and run out...

 

sorry if it's different then RUN IN AND STAY IN till you die

 

LTP your class if u play your pyro like a marauder obviously it wont be as effective if you like to stay front line roll the class made for it.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Pekish

[Hethroin]

you have ranged abilities that are usefull WHEN SOMEONE APPROACH you but at least HALF of ur DPS come from ranged

 

how many ranged abilities does the maraduer has?

 

I think i know what I am talking about mode then you do hiding behind a finger still show your lame excuse.

 

I totally see the front line full of Pyro they dont run arround trying to stay out of range... yeah rigth you make perfect sense obviously when someone close range with them they will use their close range ability and they may even run IN use the range ability and run out...

 

sorry if it's different then RUN IN AND STAY IN till you die

 

LTP your class if u play your pyro like a marauder obviously it wont be as effective if you like to stay front line roll the class made for it.

 

The specific spec this thread is about relies on being with 10m range of its target to do its top damage. The fact that a class can interrupt a door cap from 30m doesn't matter when we're talking about DPS and burst. Yes, they have several 30m abilities but they all have 15 second CDs, which makes sustaining ranged DPS impossible. Rail Shot resets do not occur from outside of 10m.

 

Not self respecting marauder player RUNS IN AND STAYS IN till they die. They camo and leave, or they pop 99% reduction and get healed up. Once in the melee range the Pyro has no mechanic to exit. There is no stealth out button, there is no 99% damage reduction, there is no AE mez.

[Astarica]

/agree with everything but your last statement. a good team will be looking for van / PT DPS because they are easier to kill than the tank sin /shadows and sent / maras...MUCH easier...I've been playing pyro since release and also have a mara. When my server died in march (The Kumumgah) I re-rolled from a PT to a Van as i'm very capable with that class and enjoy playing it throughly. But my biggest gripe atm is not even with a specific class...Its all the TTK spoiling the game atm...period!

 

You're easier to kill but you're also less dangerous compared to a Marauder/Tankasin, and also Marauder/Tankasin have incredible abilities to punish the other team when they're being ignored. You pretty much have to put a lot of damage on either class just to stop them from making a beeline toward your healers/low armor DPS and start tearing things up, so they've a tendency to counter each other because it's hard to escape from another Mara/Sin that's on you. Put it this way, if a Sin is on a PT (favorable match), he's not on me and I'll be on his healer. That's obviously a worse scenario for the enemy team so what usually happens is that the Sins/Mara fight each other and the other classes actually have some breathing room.

 

Unrelated to this, if Tanksin DPS isn't on par with Marauder, a Tanksin would never beat a Marauder 1on1 if Marauder has Cloak of Pain up because Cloak of Pain puts Marauder mitigation higher than the Tankasin, and it's likely to last the duration of most 1on1s. The class abilities between these two classes are fairly well-mirrored (they all have self heals, good defensive CDs, etc) but if one class takes less damage and does more damage, it should never lose a 1on1 against that class. Except this is clearly not true. Tankasin are perfectly capable of beating a Marauder with Cloak of Pain up.

[Razuache]

true i am always out dpsd by bounty hunters in warzones and before 1.2 and sentinels can 3 shot people i have done it alot on completely ungeard people however versus an equal or fully geard player more like 9 or 10

i think everyone thinks sentinels have been buffed so much because pre patch we were very gear depndent so very few people doing this kinda dps

 

however i didnt even rly notice a diference from pre patch to post patch thanks to already being geard but i experience that grind and i couldnt kill anythign 1v1 unless it was as ungeard as me except for the fully geard players now would die the same rate as lvl 10 - 49 warzones eg before they got expertise

[Stovokor]

Scoreboard damage done is not an accurate measure of the usefulness of a class.

 

Pyro rotation does AoE damage, Marauder rotation (unless Rage specced), does not. That's why you see Pyros doing more damage at the end of a match.

 

You are forgetting is the Pyro burst sequence does extremely high single target DPS as well to pressure healers. The fact that they have AOE pressure / numbers is a side issue ...

Most PT Pyro ( even average geared ) ones take a significant chunk out of a healers HP purely due to the Burst cycle alone. Rinse and repeat. Sentinel / Marauders ( more commonly played ) do not perform at that level if they are baddies. It just the fact that there are so many sentinels x 2 or sentinels x 3 or mara's + jugg in warzones that it amplifies spike damage due to poorly implemented expertise changes.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Stovokor

[keltoigael]

Pyro is probably one of the most damaging specs in the game. What they lack compared to Mara/Sent is the survivability. They have next to none compared to the many powerful defensive CD's that the warriors have. 1v1 as a high level Pyro player I have no chance against a good mara with their CD's up. This is why you see more Mara as they are better at smaller fights, of which there are many in WZ's. Van / PT Pyro is now VERY team dependant, they NEED the guard and heals to be viable now with the huge drop in TTK.

 

Thank you, we have one def CD and it is next to nothing compared to any tank class. Marauders are not tanks at all and can out survive us far greater. The most damage I have ever done is 500k+, I am a single target spec. People just whine about being killed to much. No class should be aplha, pyrotech is not alpha by a long shot.

[raesti]

Well, I agree with you, but there's less or no whine because, mostly, assault vanguards pyro powertechs are relatively easy to kill. Spot them and focus them right away, they won't top damage. If you try that against sent / mara, they can use a lot more defensive cooldowns and are way harder to finish off if they're being healed, they can pop their 99% damage mitigation CD and get healed to 100%. That's why this CD is so good.

 

I think assault VG and pyro PT are more or less balanced as glass canons, high DPS but weak surivability.

 

Carefull what you say apperently bursting someone down leads to nerfs. Just ask the op/scoundrels

[yukirshiro]

They nerfed pyros last patch. They buffed marauders. This is probably why you see less whines about the former and more about the latter.

 

Happy to help.

[Visue]

My damage is alright until a melee class notices me and decides to come after me. Then, the incoming damage by far outstrips what I deal myself.

 

As a sage, 1v1 against most melee is imbalanced at the moment.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Visue

[Terrorshard]

Damage numbers in warzones are a lot of fluff due to plasma cell's DoT that ticks on everyone they touch. On top of that PTs/Vanguards have to deal with a clunky resource system that limits your burst potential as the fight continues, where marauders/sents never run out of steam.

 

Also PT/Vanguards defensive cool downs are some of the worse/shortest in the game with some of the longest cool downs. Pyro/Assault usually spend 2 more points to make reactive shield better...12 seconds of 25% reduction 2 min cool down. 2 points lets you take 1.5 seconds off every time you get hit with an ICD. Even with 2 points spent is is bad.

 

Then there is Rebuke...which has a base 1 minute cool down...seems fair right

[cashogy]

pyrotech got a nerfed in 1.2, if youre getting killed by them its one of 2 things:

 

- its a really good player

- youre really bad

 

you can fix the you being bad thing by learning to counter them, but a good player is going to kick your butt 9/10 times. personally, i have not felt the pyrotech nerf all that much as i changed my playstyle to accommodate it long before 1.2 was released.

[kenzeil]

As an Operative healer in 2p WH, rest BM and full augments, I think its absurd the amount of damage Pyros put out. Even though dispel *some* of their abilities (why I can't some of their other 'tech' abilities is any man's guess), I find them significantly harder to heal and live through than Maruaders. The reapplication of the snare is utterly silly. I can cleanse it off three times in 5 seconds (via two toxic scans and evasion) and its still on me right after that again.

 

pretty much this.

[keltoigael]

pyrotech got a nerfed in 1.2, if youre getting killed by them its one of 2 things:

 

- its a really good player

- youre really bad

 

you can fix the you being bad thing by learning to counter them, but a good player is going to kick your butt 9/10 times. personally, i have not felt the pyrotech nerf all that much as i changed my playstyle to accommodate it long before 1.2 was released.

People seem to forget that expertise upped everyones damage across the board. This plays a lot into it. Pyrotech feels to me more of a niche class compared to all the other mains out there. When we kill people, they basically get out of the control on nerf this and nerf that. People dont like losing to classes they think they should automatically faceroll.

[Akiva_IC]

Can't figure out why people think powertech pyro is so dominant. I've been running a pyro merc lately and he's a death machine in WZs. Long range, high mobility - the only classes that really give me trouble are the Mara/sent since it demands a cc/snare of some kind. (still can't figure out why maras get the freakin force camo. That's so unbalanced it's not even funny ...)

 

Great for kiting, ESP if a warrior is dumb enough to start combat with force charge. If he does, l jet boost him back and start the fire. I'd say I can kill him before the next jump prob 7/10 times.

 

If they get into me at melee range, I'm toast though. Interestingly enough, mercs are more single-target than AOE, as opposed to powertech pyro, but since I respected the alt I think I haven't been top damage in maybe 5 of the last 30 WZs.

 

Took awhile to get used to (coming off a sorc healer main), but merc pyro is highly underrated. I'm moving the whole fight and some serious DoT is going the entire time. It's truly entertaining to watch people engage me and then turn and run 8 seconds later when they realize what that fire is doing to them.

[Boreus]

I'm mainly pvping on my sniper now and I find vanguards to be the far more annoying of the two, probably because I like to play marksman. Sentinels can be a pain, but with cooldowns I can outlast them even if they catch me in the open. If for whatever reason we're in cramped quarters (void star tunnels) then I'm likely to be toast. Vanguards though...they just far more durable, and evasion doesn't work on their tech attacks. They melt me before I can bring them low. (this is all assuming they are able to make it into close range before I notice them)

[Agooz]

Hi there. Let me preface this by saying I play on average 15 Warzones per day during peak hours, more during weekends, so my observations in this post are based on my personal experience from my server's warzones (Dark Reaper). I also have a lv50 Assault Vanguard, Watchman Sentinel, Seer Sage all of whom (pre-1.2) are geared in mix-mash ranging from full Champ, to partial Cent-Champ, or Champ-BM. So I do speak from a pretty neutral point of view as I've experienced all the class archetypes.

 

Now I am seeing posts everywhere all over various forums talking about how OP Sentinels and Darkness (tank) Assassins are, so much that Sentinels are 3-shotting people (yeah right... lol). While I am not refuting that Sentinels and Assassins are performing very well atm, I am extremely surprised at the conspicuous lack of 'whine' posts regarding Pyro Powertechs (and its mirror class).

 

I play a fair amount of Warzones on a daily basis, and in every match that has a Pyrotech/Assaultguard present they are almost always topping damage meters by a fair margin (the difference is magnified in Voidstar). I have made a point to note who else were also present in the warzones, and my observations were that even with some of the best geared Marauders/Sents on my server present, Pyrotechs still dominate the damage done. If you play on Dark Reaper, you know what I am talking about if you've seen Vanni, Vaux or Illfoxyl and some other Pyros tearing people up doing up to 600-800k+ damage in Voidstars for example.

 

So I am curious, is it because Pyros/Vanguards are much less played than Marauders/Assassins that people just get owned less by them so they turn their attention to the classes that has more players? Because I can safely say that Pyros are in no way inferior to Marauders in terms of damage, I know this for a fact too since that is what I am playing as well.

 

If Marauders were 4/5 for damage, then Pyros would be 5/5 for me, while Tank Assassins would be 3.5/5 if they wear dps gear. This is balanced by defense, where Marauders have 4/5 again due to excellent defensive cooldowns, while Pyros have just heavy armor and a -25% to all damage putting them at 3/5 (the option to safely damage from range to avoid getting focused in a skirmish is a huge plus too), while Tank Assassins at 4.5/5 even while wearing dps gear.

 

Does anyone else share my observations or is my server an anomaly where Pyros are dominating damage done killing people in 1v1 in under 10 secs? (2 railshots for ~5-9k damage, 1 thermal detonator, 2-3 fire bursts, 1 IM = ~10secs). Annihilation Marauders are annoying as **** with their cooldowns, but at least they take time to do their damage and you have that possibility of outplaying them if you time your stuns/cooldowns right. But with Pyro Railshot burst it's just, 'oh hey I'm at 50% already from the initial salvo, 6secs later I am dead once Railshot goes off cooldown'.

 

Thoughts?

 

Maybe because the mobilities and defenses(cooldowns or not) of both Marauders/Sins more than make up the extra burst of Pyros? But that's just me. Funny this is a complaint about an AC that just got a decent nerf too.

[alanisUDL]

pyrotech got a nerfed in 1.2, if youre getting killed by them its one of 2 things:

 

- its a really good player

- youre really bad

 

you can fix the you being bad thing by learning to counter them, but a good player is going to kick your butt 9/10 times. personally, i have not felt the pyrotech nerf all that much as i changed my playstyle to accommodate it long before 1.2 was released.

 

Are you having trouble killing healers as a Pyro? Perhaps you might consider that you are, actually, the bad player.

[TheGreatFrosty]

I couldn't agree more.

 

The problem is the Devs are far more concerned (as 1.2 has blatantly shown) in what produces the most QQ on the forums. Powertechs are hugely imbalanced still, they have burst higher than that of an operative and are able to spam for big gains.

 

One of the most hilarious things I find is people's way of excusing their class by saying "Oh no wait, we don't survive very well". Welcome to being a DPS, now play the DPSers with light armour and come back to make the same point.

 

Being a DPS is about low survivability. And even if we agree that powertechs had lower survivability (not that I in anyway ever would), this in no way excuses their ridiculously high burst. Burst was meant to be lowered in this game, whereas Powertechs are sticking a finger up at the nerfed operatives and Loling about doing the exact same thing, without the need to enter stealth to hinder them.

[Scoobings]

Are you having trouble killing healers as a Pyro? Perhaps you might consider that you are, actually, the bad player.

 

As a PT sorcs are cannon fodder, and Mercs are pretty even, but an OP shouldn't be getting killed by a lone pyrotech. Straight up. They have so much going for them in that match up there is absolutely no reason an op should ever be concerned about a single pyrotech.

[Ethurian]

Well I can tell you that no Vanguard can come close in damage to a PT. Mirror class ha ha that's a laugh. If I see a PT I basically run away and hope I don't burn to death before I find a healing pack.

 

Can you tell us? Could you tell us? Would you?

 

Seriously? Why would you even post something that has no basis in reality? It's remarkable. Bravo! Perhaps if you understood anything about the different specs, you might have an idea of what was going on. But that's fine, allow yourself to delve into the depths of blissful ignorance. And don't worry, when you lose, it isn't a lack of skill or gear, it's that the game hates you. You don't lose because you're not good, you lose because the class you fought is OP, even when it's your mirror class. Those damn Powertechs with their exact same skills as yours.

 

Maybe if you tried the shared tree between Vanguard and Commando, and you might understand why you're exploding.

 

But you know what? That's what the smart folks would do.

[Cobb]

As an Operative healer in 2p WH, rest BM and full augments, I think its absurd the amount of damage Pyros put out. Even though dispel *some* of their abilities (why I can't some of their other 'tech' abilities is any man's guess), I find them significantly harder to heal and live through than Maruaders. The reapplication of the snare is utterly silly. I can cleanse it off three times in 5 seconds (via two toxic scans and evasion) and its still on me right after that again.

 

If you're spending a GCD to cleanse a 50% movement snare that only lasts 2 seconds, you're doing something wrong.