Marauders? What about Pyrotechs? (honest question regarding damage numbers)

[cashogy]

as a mercenary pyrotech, i would argue that heat management and damage output has not diminished at all since 1.2 was released. after playing the arsenal spec briefly, i felt that pyrotech actually had BETTER heat management over long periods of burst damage.

[Xsorus]

Basically what it comes down to, If I see a Pyrotech and open up on him with my Sniper, good chance i'll kill him if he's equally geared to me.

 

Same can't be said of Marauder who'll pop 10 different cooldowns to **** me.

 

No one is saying Pyrotech DPS is low though, I can put out very good damage on a Pyrotech, it's just a Squishy melee class with 1 defensive cooldown (which isn't all that great)

[LordbishopX]

Man so many lack the ability to kite or stun for 5 secs..... Edited April 19, 2012 by LordbishopX

[Bnol]

here is the kicker, no one wants marauder, tankasin or even powertech dps lowered... all they want is tankasin and marauder survivability lowered in the form of nerfing their cooldowns... im sorry but 99% dmg reduction for 5 seconds is flat out stupid. and tankasins have 2 amazing cooldowns on a 45s and 1min cooldown which is just way too fast for pvp and trivializes content in pve... powertechs were nerfed, they were way worse before 1.2, dont beat the dead horse... for the most part ppls dmg is fine, it's the other stuff which give them unfair advantages in pvp that ppl want nerfed.

 

Well the reason their CDs are so powerful is because TTK has become so short in this game. If TTK was longer (nerfing damage), then the CDs mean less. 5 seconds (duration of 99% damage reduction and tanksin Force shroud) is a long time if it only takes 15 seconds to kill someone.

Edited April 20, 2012 by LexiCazam
IC - quote

[Varicite]

as a mercenary pyrotech, i would argue that heat management and damage output has not diminished at all since 1.2 was released. after playing the arsenal spec briefly, i felt that pyrotech actually had BETTER heat management over long periods of burst damage.

 

No offense Cash, but that's apples and oranges. : )

 

Merc and PT heat management is intrinsically different, even in the shared tree, because of the mechanics behind the ACs. Merc Pyro still relies on hard casts to proc Rail Shots, which allow them to dissipate heat DURING the cast time, as well as relying more on the heat-efficient Unload. They also receive talents to reduce the cost of their most used abilities.

 

PT Pyro ramps up quickly by frontloading all of their burst, and then switching to Rapid Shots/Unload during the ICD phase of PPA to let heat dissipate.

 

If heat management were shown in a line graph, Merc would be a slightly more steady line, while the PT version would be very spiky.

[Bnol]

Man so many lack the ability to kite or stun for 5 secs.....

 

Except that you can't CC Force shroud (well unless you get really lucky and have accuracy) and the Sin can just pull or use Force speed to break physical roots.

 

For Maras you have to use CC/knockbacks to stop Ravage (since it is now uninterruptable, which is fine, but the 15% increase in damage was too much, especially considering it does not cost rage to use) or they won't even need to use Undying Rage to kill you.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Bnol

[VoidJustice]

Is it the PT that put up that shield and become impossible to even dent or are they

the really squishy ones... lol

Edited April 19, 2012 by VoidJustice

[Nesso]

Can you tell us? Could you tell us? Would you?

 

Seriously? Why would you even post something that has no basis in reality? It's remarkable. Bravo! Perhaps if you understood anything about the different specs, you might have an idea of what was going on. But that's fine, allow yourself to delve into the depths of blissful ignorance. And don't worry, when you lose, it isn't a lack of skill or gear, it's that the game hates you. You don't lose because you're not good, you lose because the class you fought is OP, even when it's your mirror class. Those damn Powertechs with their exact same skills as yours.

 

Maybe if you tried the shared tree between Vanguard and Commando, and you might understand why you're exploding.

 

But you know what? That's what the smart folks would do.

 

Maybe if you took a look at the shared tree for both advanced classes, you'd notice there are some very important differences in the same tree and overall build for each class...

 

1. Pyro PT rail shot procs are based on their main, no cd, instant cast ability, and rocket punch another instant cast within their rotation. Merc Pyro rail shot procs are based on power shot and unload, although both attack are ranged, they are also prone to interrupts, which slows down their dps.

 

2. Pyro PT often in their build have 90% armor penetration, 6% more dmg on rail shot, 4-6% more dmg on their fire dmg and 6% more crit on their elemental attacks. Merc pyros have 9% more aim, 30% armor penetration on rail shot, and 9% more dmg on their missile attacks (inciendiary missile for pyro mercs) and power shot (which got nerfed by 10%).

 

3. Merc Pyros have to rely on pure luck from spamming their basic attack in order to proc their high dmg dot/snare from CGC, Pyro PT have a 100% chance to apply CGC from their main no cd instant cast ability.

 

Obviously there's also some differences in baseline abilities that grant versatility, such as grapple, jet charge, AE stun from Powertech vs knockback, and inefficient heals (pyro build for mercs is VERY inflexible, so there's almost no way to pick up some healing talents w/o gimping yourself)... Sure they share a lot of the same abilities, but the playstyle for both classes are VERY different, one is a melee the other is ranged, both are devastating in the hands of a capable player, but on the hands of the same player a Pyro Powertech will outperform a Pyro Mercenary.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Nesso

[Varicite]

Maybe if you took a look at the shared tree for both advanced classes, you'd notice there are some very important differences in the same tree and overall build for each class...

 

1. Pyro PT rail shot procs are based on their main, no cd, instant cast ability, and rocket punch another instant cast within their rotation. Merc Pyro rail shot procs are based on power shot and unload, although both attack are ranged, they are also prone to interrupts, which slows down their dps.

 

2. Pyro PT often in their build have 90% armor penetration, 6% more dmg on rail shot, 4-6% more dmg on their fire dmg and 6% more crit on their elemental attacks. Merc pyros have 9% more aim, 30% armor penetration on rail shot, and 9% more dmg on their missile attacks (inciendiary missile for pyro mercs) and power shot (which got nerfed by 10%).

 

3. Merc Pyros have to rely on pure luck from spamming their basic attack in order to proc their high dmg dot/snare from CGC, Pyro PT have a 100% chance to apply CGC from their main no cd instant cast ability.

 

Obviously there's also some differences in baseline abilities that grant versatility, such as grapple, jet charge, AE stun from Powertech vs knockback, and inefficient heals (pyro build for mercs is VERY inflexible, so there's almost no way to pick up some healing talents w/o gimping yourself)... Sure they share a lot of the same abilities, but the playstyle for both classes are VERY different, one is a melee the other is ranged, both are devastating in the hands of a capable player, but on the hands of the same player a Pyro Powertech will outperform a Pyro Mercenary.

 

All correct, except that Pyro PT doesn't have Jet Charge.

 

Should also note that Pyro PT procs CGC every few seconds from either Flame Burst OR Rail Shots, adding quite a bit of extra damage to both of those attacks, and keeping the hefty dot ticking constantly (600-1k damage a tick).

 

Sorry Mercs, your version of Pyro is cool, but it can't touch the PT version right now. : )

Edited April 19, 2012 by Varicite

[lijahrobinson]

 

I too run a pyro merc after 1.2. can you link your build? Any advice on build and rotation is greatly appreciated!

 

I use an Incend Missile > Thermal > Rail > unload > rail or an Incend > thermal >Power shot x2 >rail > Unload as my two main rotations. Mostly the first one but the 2nd one has its uses as the thermal, 2nd powershot, and rail hit within 1 sec of each other. I always try to save a free/instacast fusion missile for later in the fight when people will be under 30%.

[oceansofmars]

I think it's probably a combination of a few things:

 

- That damage in voidstar is due to stellar AOE that pyrotechs have, while maurader damage is all single target

- Mauraders have higher survivability

- There are far fewer PTs

 

I think mostly it's the last one. If there were more powertechs I think we'd see more threads complaining about them. Especially because railshot does hit like a friggin truck if specced full Pyro.

 

Rofl... AOE damage? Are you crazy? Pyrotechs are direct damage.

[Nesso]

All correct, except that Pyro PT doesn't have Jet Charge.

 

Should also note that Pyro PT procs CGC every few seconds from either Flame Burst OR Rail Shots, adding quite a bit of extra damage to both of those attacks, and keeping the hefty dot ticking constantly (600-1k damage a tick).

 

Sorry Mercs, your version of Pyro is cool, but it can't touch the PT version right now. : )

 

I stand corrected, totally slipped my mind that Jet Charge is a shield tech talent.

 

And yes, I would kill for a reliable way to keep up CGC on my targets like Powertechs do :/

Edited April 19, 2012 by Nesso

[cyberaptor]

Difference is, If I get lucky on my marauder I can kill a dude in 3 globals. That will never ever happen on my vanguard.

 

Also, my marauder lives usually a good 30 seconds when getting focused and can slip away if needed.

 

My vanguard has to sit there and take it like a man.

 

I concur, I play a pyro PT (from launch) and against a marauder, if played well, is the one class I couldn't take down. So I rolled a marauder to learn their weaknesses, boy was I surprised to learn they have very, very few. I can't get the same overall dmg numbers that I can w/ my pyro, but I rarely die as a marauder, where w/ the pyro, once you commit to a fight, it's 'til death do us part.

 

And just out of curiosity, I out fitted my pyro in med armor to see how much of a difference heavy armor makes, and from my experience, not much (but I was ignored more often). At least not in PvP, PvE is a different story.

[Theology]

What about Pyrotechs?

 

We do damage.

 

We die easily.

 

GG?

[LordbishopX]

I kill maras all the time key is know when to cc and kite and then burn them down. Most maras are silly open with leap which makes it easy to counter KB and slow. The only CD that's a pain is when they red shield that's the CC time just need 5 seconds pretty much not the big deal peeps making it out to be at all.....

[Monterone]

I concur, I play a pyro PT (from launch) and against a marauder, if played well, is the one class I couldn't take down. So I rolled a marauder to learn their weaknesses, boy was I surprised to learn they have very, very few. I can't get the same overall dmg numbers that I can w/ my pyro, but I rarely die as a marauder, where w/ the pyro, once you commit to a fight, it's 'til death do us part.

 

And just out of curiosity, I out fitted my pyro in med armor to see how much of a difference heavy armor makes, and from my experience, not much (but I was ignored more often). At least not in PvP, PvE is a different story.

 

Very true, going to medium armor won't make much of a difference. Sure you'll notice a few percent more incoming damage over a long period of time, but defensive cool downs is where it's at in this game. The class that has most of these is the class that will win in PvP, plain and simple.

[anticept]

Yeah, because your armor and a flat 25% damage reduction obviously suck ***. It's funny how everybody seems to think their class is the squishiest.

 

Range, a stun, a flat 25% damage reduction and more armor than most dps classes is nowhere close to 1/5. More like 4/5.

Yeh 30meters range on 2 main burst abilities with lengthy cds but 10meters if they want procs , every class has stun , worst defensive CD´s (after sorcs) so go on roll one they are bound to be the FOTM at some point.

[Scoloplastic]

1. On my Scoundrel healer, the only class that I find dangerous on a short 1v1 fight are Powertechs. It's not unusual for the fight with them to go something like this: 4.5k rail shot, 2k flame burst + 700 dot which starts rolling, followed by 4.5k grenade + 700 dot +5k railshot simultaneously - 17k damage on the course of 4.5seconds. When that happens (which is often) I will go down shortly if i haven't already (as i do have some hots rolling). No other damage dealer can come close to doing so much damage to me in such a short time. The only ones that can come close are Concealment Operatives and that's only if they open on me from stealth (which is still less bursty than powertechs) - PTs can do this rotation every 15 seconds... Which brings me to my 2nd point.

 

2. On PVP - Powertechs\Vanguards are the highest single target damage AC in the game in PVP - at any time we have a bunch of BM\WH geared DPS guys, if there's a powertech among them, almost always he will have the highest damage at the end of the match - an annihiliation marauder (which takes time to build up damage on a target and is, in my opinion, a much less dangerous damage dealer) will have around 300k while a PT will have 450-500k.

 

I am pretty sure, even though it's still quite a new subject, that PTs are next up on the nerf list (it's funny to think they felt their last nerf was unjustified).

 

And by the way, they are definitely not as squishy as they try to make themselves out to be. It's true that they have one good defensive CD, but with the talent to reduce the cooldown it's usually around a 1min CD - and in general, from the other side of things, they are very easy to keep alive as a healer (maybe it has to do with the fact that whomever they are fighting goes down pretty fast).

Edited April 19, 2012 by Scoloplastic

[Varicite]

I kill maras all the time key is know when to cc and kite and then burn them down. Most maras are silly open with leap which makes it easy to counter KB and slow. The only CD that's a pain is when they red shield that's the CC time just need 5 seconds pretty much not the big deal peeps making it out to be at all.....

 

I'm pretty sure he was talking about a non-braindead Mara. : )

 

You don't even make mention of things like Obfuscate, Saber Ward, or their Vanish. PT and Mara deal similar damage over time, but Maras don't die as easily and their defensive cds directly counter a PT's offense.

 

The fight is a no-brainer at equal skill levels. Mara and Tankasins are direct counters to a PT.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Varicite

[exphryl]

1. On my Scoundrel healer, the only class that I find dangerous on a short 1v1 fight are Powertechs. It's not unusual for the fight with them to go something like this: 4.5k rail shot, 2k flame burst + 700 dot which starts rolling, followed by 4.5k grenade + 700 dot +5k railshot simultaneously - 17k damage on the course of 4.5seconds. When that happens (which is often)

 

Every 2 Minutes != Often for those numbers. Even then with cooldowns it still is subjected to Crit RNG

 

I am pretty sure, even though it's still quite a new subject, that PTs are next up on the nerf list (it's funny to think they felt their last nerf was unjustified).

 

Competent Pyros would have said their burst was quite high pre 1.2, and even with the change the competent ones still never really directing their arguments towards damage. But how the "nerf" had an effect on our resource system as it made it worse then the other two trees in the class, and worst probably among any AC out there.

 

And by the way, they are definitely not as squishy as they try to make themselves out to be. It's true that they have one good defensive CD, but with the talent to reduce the cooldown it's usually around a 1min CD - and in general, from the other side of things, they are very easy to keep alive as a healer (maybe it has to do with the fact that whomever they are fighting goes down pretty fast)

 

No, we are squishy, especially with how TTK changed with Patch. The cool-down we do have is best used at the start of a fight, it's nothing that will save us if we use it to late compared to some of the abilities of other classes.

Edited April 19, 2012 by exphryl

[DarthPunitor]

Scoreboard damage done is not an accurate measure of the usefulness of a class.

 

Pyro rotation does AoE damage, Marauder rotation (unless Rage specced), does not. That's why you see Pyros doing more damage at the end of a match.

 

this a hundred times.

[Varicite]

this a hundred times.

 

The bulk of his post isn't even true.... <.<

[Ethurian]

You're right but you're a jerk. You could have easily said "check the assault spec they are similar".

 

Just like how you could have thought before you made a post filled to the brim with misinformation.

A heavy hand normally leaves a bigger mark than a gentle tug.

[roggles]

 

I play a fair amount of Warzones on a daily basis, and in every match that has a Pyrotech/Assaultguard present they are almost always topping damage meters by a fair margin (the difference is magnified in Voidstar). I have made a point to note who else were also present in the warzones, and my observations were that even with some of the best geared Marauders/Sents on my server present, Pyrotechs still dominate the damage done. If you play on Dark Reaper, you know what I am talking about if you've seen Vanni, Vaux or Illfoxyl and some other Pyros tearing people up doing up to 600-800k+ damage in Voidstars for example.

 

...Annihilation Marauders are annoying as **** with their cooldowns...

 

I must be doing it wrong, i have never broke 600k damage, but i play on shadowtown and near 80% of the time i do top damage with the most killing blows and what not. i do some AoE damage so the numbers might be a little padded but the bulk of my damage is single target and I DO chase healers around(again padded numbers). also dont fear any class 1 v1, if they get the jump or not. PT burst is retardedly good however as far as PT vs Mara i think Mara get way too many def CDs it is freakin redic and the fact that every class in the game gets nerfed but mara's get buffed tells me bioware is sucking mara and sent **** all day long. so a good Mara can out DPS me 1 v1 so fast it isnt funny, and if i have a full bar of heat to burn up and none of my attacks are on CD i can burst a mara down so fast it isnt funny difference is mara can stop my dps at anytime, and just leave the fight whenever. can someone direct me to where i QQ and cry nerf for mara/sent

 

oh and somewhere else i saw some justification that mara are frontline fighters and need the def CDs 10m is very close, it is front line, yea i can set up a combo from 30m but if i want to kill someone those 30m are getting eaten up very quick, so PT are FRONTLINE, they are very squishy, heavy armor is a *********** joke QQQQQQQQQ *uck marauders, i would be pew pewing but my server seems empty right now, if they dont release rated soon everyone will be gone fishing by the time they make this game fun

[cashogy]

this a hundred times.

 

incorrect

 

flame burst = single target

rocket punch = single target

thermal det = single target

rail shot = single target

unload = single target

rapid shots = single target

death from above = AOE

flamethrower = AOE

explosive dart =AOE

 

the majority of pyrotech damage comes from thermal det, rail shot, and the abilities that proc PPA. all of which are single target damage.