How may DPS attackers should healer be able to defend against?

[symke]

1.2 healing changes are making healers pretty angry. And while some others (probably other classes) say it was necessary to nerf healers, some say that it was not necessary to do it so drastically.

 

While reading through posts on this subject I realised that I don't understand class balance as others do so I would like clarification on this issue:

How many DPS attackers (sent/mara as pure DPS) should a healer be able to defend against without dying (and of course without doing any significant damage to this DPS player)?

 

Solo healer ...... one or two?

Healer with tank guarding him/her ........ two or three?

 

This is very difficult to test as all of participating players would have be of same skill, level and gear. How many times do we find ourselves in such exact situation?

[Assaultrooper]

Solo healer, 1 dps if your good.

Tank With healer, Depends :\ but I have seen it surviving up to 3 dps , if you make sure to heal the tank.

[JMCH]

I'd say a healer should compensate 3 attackers, because 4 is too much (healer = N°1 target and if there are 2 they become unkillable -> not good) and less is hopeless.

 

Now, why so much as 3 damage dealers for just 1 healer? Reason is simple, if you attack him, he'll need to heal himself and won't be able to heal his mates very efficiently (targeting far from the easiest ever, even with the operation panel).

 

I'm aware that it would bring us longer fights, which would imply longer warzone durations, which then wouldn't be "casual-friendly", but then skill would clearly be more prevalent than ping and voice chat, which isn't the case actually.

[Mizhas]

3 ¿?

Seriuosly if a healer can hold himself against 3 atackers solo imagine if 2 or more healers would join a wz.

 

1-1 holding its reasonably ok cause in this game there are just 2 AC with pure dps specs. The rest can also guard or heal in a moment of need.

 

Many people may think that a dps just has to dps and this is not true. In my case as a powertech (same goes for juggernauts and assasins) i can taunt the enemies to reduce their damage, pull them away from my healer or even stun and burn them to the ground.

 

Healers have enough kitting tools to hold for about +10 seconds by their own before help arrives.

OFC if you're a pug healer then you have a trouble cause in pugs very few players will leave whatever they're doing to help you.

[Assaultrooper]

I'd say a healer should compensate 3 attackers, because 4 is too much (healer = N°1 target and if there are 2 they become unkillable -> not good) and less is hopeless.

 

Now, why so much as 3 damage dealers for just 1 healer? Reason is simple, if you attack him, he'll need to heal himself and won't be able to heal his mates very efficiently (targeting far from the easiest ever, even with the operation panel).

 

I'm aware that it would bring us longer fights, which would imply longer warzone durations, which then wouldn't be "casual-friendly", but then skill would clearly be more prevalent than ping and voice chat, which isn't the case actually.

 

Well you aren't actually saying what the OP wants You are basically saying a Healer is worth 3 dpsers. (Which I actually believe is true right now)

 

Thats unless you are trying to imply that a healer should survive while having three guys (almost 50% of the team) whacking at him. In which case I am very happy you are not a dev sire

[Altruismo]

One.

 

One defender should be able to defend against any one attacker, unaided.

One attacker should be able to succeed against any one defender, unaided.

 

AC or spec should not determine the outcome, the better player should win most of the time.

 

A design where more than one attacker of any spec is required to defeat one defender of any spec is not balanced, and makes the "double power" spec inhenrently more valuable on the field regardless of the number of combatants, since we're dealing with a cap of 8.

If you put a healer who can not be defeated by 1 person on defence, this means the enemy has no choice but to leave the healer alone and give up the objective, or deliberately leave themselves outnumbered at another objective by sending 2 against the 1 - or to bring more of the inhenrently more valuable healers to avoid this.

 

Before people jump in with the "WZ's aren't 1v1" garbage.

1V1s and 2V2s occur as often in WZ's as any other matchup, and regularly decide ownership of an objective.

6, 7, and 8V8s are extremely rare outside of pug V pug mid-madness in Civil.

Just try putting all 8 of your team in one spot in any WZ and see how that works out for ya.

[Mizhas]

Well you aren't actually saying what the OP wants You are basically saying a Healer is worth 3 dpsers. (Which I actually believe is true right now)

 

Thats unless you are trying to imply that a healer should survive while having three guys (almost 50% of the team) whacking at him. In which case I am very happy you are not a dev sire

 

Pretty sure that was exactly what he was willing to say

[KNOwen]

To prevent a healer from healing his team: 1

To kill a healer: 2 (1 should be able to but is should take quite a while)

To kill a guarded healer: 3 (2 should be able to but is should take quite a while)

[Jatne]

Anything other than a 1:1 ratio devalues certain classes. Noone should be able to survive against two people for longer than defensive CDs last.

 

Rock, Paper, Scissors is not balance. Knuckles is balance.

[Moryu]

I would say that a healer facing an equally skilled and equally geared pure dpser they should be able to keep themselves up without doing anything but healing themselves. So my answer to your question is 1.

[Brytag]

my general feelings on this issue is as follows:

this is assuming equal gear / skill level between the players

 

1 healer should be able to statemate against 1 dps for a bit. when i say a bit, im thinking maybe 8-10 global CDs? in that time, the dps should be able to whittle down the heals health but not kill him. the heals should still have enough time to even throw a friendly heal out but mainly the healer should be concerned about his own well being. between the healer's defensive CDs/ccs and heals, they should be able to maintain themselves a good while. however, as the fight gets longer and goes on, the dps should start to pull ahead and eventually be able to kill the healer.

 

my reasoning is that pvp should be about teamwork. what team is allowing a dps to beat on their healer for more than 10-15 seconds? they should be ccing/peeling, guarding, taunting etc. if they choose not to do this, then yes i feel 1 dps should eventually be able to kill the healer. but again, the healer should be able to maintain himself to get to help or until help arrives. if neither happens, then the team deserve to lose the healer.

 

in the case of focus fire, say 2-3 dps, then ya the healer should die much quicker. nothing being focused by 3 dps should survive more than 3-4 global CDs with the exception of a tank that blows his defensive/emergency CDs. thats still enough time to blow a defensive CD, or some sort of CC and hopefully kite to a friendly.

 

my personal feelings on guard is that it should be a CD ability not something u just place on the person and forgot about. I would like to see it function similar to taunt that it helps reduced damage for 10 seconds or so. not that it isnt counterable currently, its just something i would like to see happen. this way teams would actually have to manage it and not just "set it and forget it'.

[Ancard]

Solo healer, 1 dps if your good.

Tank With healer, Depends :\ but I have seen it surviving up to 3 dps , if you make sure to heal the tank.

 

This will only ever happen to people not using stuns and interrupts. With the rate at which healers drop against player that know how to use these abilities stuns and interrupts would need to be completely taken out of the game to make healing even remotely viable in it's current state.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Ancard

[JMCH]

This will only ever happen to people not using stuns and interrupts. With the rate at which healers drop against player that know how to use these abilities stuns and interrupts would need to be completely taken out of the game to make healing even remotely viable in it's current state.

So... back to my 3 DD for 1 healer.

 

When you CC/interrupt the healer, he won't even be able to heal himself, so that would be balanced as long as you don't play 8x1 but truly as an 8 team.

 

Interestingly enough, that would imply dividing DPS by 4~5 or so, not boost healing by that much...

Edited April 18, 2012 by JMCH

[Mizhas]

So... back to my 3 DD for 1 healer.

 

When you CC/interrupt the healer, he won't even be able to heal himself, so that would be balanced as long as you don't play 8x1 but truly as an 8 team.

 

Interestingly enough, that would imply dividing DPS by 4~5 or so, not boost healing by that much...

 

But healers also have CC. They can aoe knockback and vanish or run from LoS, Don't expect to survive even to 1 single dps standing still casting heals. Think about CC as another kind of heal.

[KekoSplit]

At the moment, it's about 0.5 dps needed to kill a healer.

[Nmaharg]

1.

 

Healers should pretty much die asap without team support if they are being focused. Just like everyone else.

[Anishor]

my personal feelings on guard is that it should be a CD ability not something u just place on the person and forgot about. I would like to see it function similar to taunt that it helps reduced damage for 10 seconds or so. not that it isnt counterable currently, its just something i would like to see happen. this way teams would actually have to manage it and not just "set it and forget it'.

 

You do have to manage it, you have to stay pretty darn close to your guarded target. With all the CCs, Roots, and Snares in the game that can be quiet a challenge.

[Magnesium]

I think the issue of Healer Vs DPS is something quite critical at the moment, before you had some healers going up against 3 DPS and not being killed, that NEEDED to be fixed, but now only a really good healer and even then probably class restricted will they last long enough against 1 Burst DPS class.

 

BW has really negated healing in a big way that a FULL DPS team will always beat an equal level Mixed team.

[Vladnar]

As Sorcerer healer popping into PvP used to be fun and you'd do some healing and you could take a few hits before you'd be taken out. Since 1.2 with 571 expertise im being one shot by scoundrels and when im shielded then its stunned and 1 shot from what i can make out.

 

Getting a slower heal off, not much chance really already a goner.

 

In World of Warcraft healers were cannon fodder then indestructible machines...always an extreme...looks like being here too.

 

Vladnar

[Nmaharg]

As Sorcerer healer popping into PvP used to be fun and you'd do some healing and you could take a few hits before you'd be taken out. Since 1.2 with 571 expertise im being one shot by scoundrels and when im shielded then its stunned and 1 shot from what i can make out.

 

Getting a slower heal off, not much chance really already a goner.

 

In World of Warcraft healers were cannon fodder then indestructible machines...always an extreme...looks like being here too.

 

Vladnar

 

571 expertise is your problem. You need to buy that recruit gear.

[namelless]

Healers should be able to survive a single dps. By survive i mean a single dps should be incapable of killing a good healer, but by the same token they should also be able to completely lock down a healer and prevent them from healing their team-mates.

 

2+ the healer should die relatively fast, unless he's with a tank friend.

[skotish]

1.

 

Healers should pretty much die asap without team support if they are being focused. Just like everyone else.

 

This^^ I am a merc healer i only die when focused which is fine by me the only thing is the healing output for me is weak in a( few months when i hit war hero )/sarcasm make that 6 months the way the wz are for pugs

 

My answer is 1

[JMCH]

Healers should pretty much die asap without team support if they are being focused. Just like everyone else.

So, they have to be useless since :

 

1- No one in a team should play 1vs1.

2- If he can't even heal himself against 1 attacker (while not being that much weaker than a tank with no defensive ability up, even for a sorc/sage), what's the purpose of a healer?

Edited April 18, 2012 by JMCH

[Nmaharg]

So, they have to be useless since :

 

1- No one in a team should play 1vs1.

2- If he can't even heal himself against 1 attacker, what's the purpose of a healer?

 

Purpose of healing is to healing...

 

Not sure I understand the question. Not being able to kill the DPS doesn't mean you still can't kite/cc them around. Doesn't mean you still can't heal your teammates. What it does mean however is you can't just stand in one spot and expect to live anymore. Which is want most bad healers got use to doing and are QQing about not being able to anymore.

[JMCH]

Purpose of healing is to healing...

 

Not sure I understand the question. Not being able to kill the DPS doesn't mean you still can't kite/cc them around. Doesn't mean you still can't heal your teammates. What it does mean however is you can't just stand in one spot and expect to live anymore. Which is want most bad healers got use to doing and are QQing about not being able to anymore.

Anyone can kite, you don't have to be a healer for that, so we could play Tom & Jerry or Benny Hill all the WZ duration, good suggestion!

 

Oh, but no, there's CC for the damage dealers too, that doesn't work that well in fact...

 

And no, you won't be able to have the least impact if you're just a self-thinking lvl 20 medipac everyone wants to have for him, at most you'll be able to heal your mates AFTER the fight, but then the game is 7vs8.

Edited April 18, 2012 by JMCH