How may DPS attackers should healer be able to defend against?

[emartell]

No one who is suggesting healers should be soloable seems to know what they want or can describe this imaginary heal class that is both soloable and viable.

 

That's the hitch. Many DPS want their cake and eat it too. Healers just want some cake.

[carlosmartin]

In my opinion is not the healer what worries me that much as the couple healer-tank. So latetly, in some warzones I have faced many of this couples full BM and they are almost imposible to kill, ok if 4 or more focus on this couple you might have a chance but that means that many of the opposite team players will be completly free to act. I am really afraid that this couples will dominate the ranked WZ, so maybe what really needs to be balance is the guard ability and not so much the healer it self, what it is screwing many pve players.

[Xsorus]

A healer who is doing damage as well as healing can kill 1 DPSer in a 1v1...assuming both are equally geared and skilled.

 

Maybe against crappy DPS, If you're not trying to out dps me when i'm on my Powertech, you're going to lose the second you stop to Heal.

 

a Hybrid Healer cannot stand up against good DPS classes....

 

As for the rest of the Thread, 1 Healer should be able to stay up against a Single DPS, it should require at least 2 DPS to kill the healer, and it should take longer then the 5 seconds it currently takes.

 

a Tank/Healer Duo should be difficult to take down, not a bloody joke.

[Darth_Philar]

A healer should NOT be able to survive indefinitely against a DPSer. That's insane.

 

... said the DPSer.

 

 

Again, if Healing and DPS are actually balanced then the formula would be as simple as x - y = 0 where x is DPS and y is HPS. In that situation, no matter how long the fight lasts no side would ever gain the advantage. The DPS would hurt the healer and the healer would heal himself reverting both sides back to square 1.

 

That is balance, and that is what DPS players do not want.

[Shardas]

This is going to be a wall of text so... you have been warned.

 

First of all I'm going to assume the roles (healer, tank, damage dealer) are meant to be balanced.

Read: There is no difference in performance between the roles (attention: Damage per second != performance).

 

Next I'll assume that equipment and levels are equal and that the 'optimal' skill sets have been chosen for each role.

 

Lastly I'll ignore the human player behind the character, meaning: The best possible skill rotation is being used at the exact moment the cooldown wears off - no delays due to player reaction or something like that.

 

Basically this means I'll take a purely mathematical approach on this problem.

 

"How many DPS attackers should a healer be able to defend against?"

 

My answer is: One.

 

Again this is a purely mathematical approach and additionally only my humble oppinion. Since only looking at 'healer VS damage dealer' isn't enough to show you what I mean, I will include all three roles.

 

First example: damage dealer VS damage dealer

 

Remember what I said - same level, same equipment, same skills, no delays in skill usage due to reaction times of the player. So basically both damage dealers will fall at the exact same time. A classical double K.O.

 

I won't give examples for 'tank VS tank' and 'healer VS healer' here as they will simply end in a draw just like the above example.

 

Second example: damage dealer VS healer

 

The damage dealer has to be able to keep the pressure on the healer so that he won't be able to do something other than healing himself. However while doing so he does not have any trouble keeping himself alive. So this match will end in a draw. The damage dealer can keep hacking at the healer as long as he wants while the healer can keep himself alive just as long.

 

Third example: damage dealer VS tank

 

The tank with his defensive capabilities is able to reduce and soak up the attacks of the damage dealer enough to give him the opportunity to attack the damage dealer. However he did sacrifice offensive power for his high defense so even with his lower defense the damage dealer can last a little while pummeling the tank. You may have guessed it - this results in a double K.O.

 

I think I don't need to explain what a 'tank VS healer' match would look like.

 

So here is a short summary:

 

No matter which of the three roles you pit against each other, a one on one fight always has to end in a draw. That is what I would call balance.

 

Now the really interesting part comes when we add humans (the players obviously) into the equation and when more than just two players fight against each other. In a system that is balanced like described above each class (or role for that matter) would be equally valid for PvP and only the players' skill would decide about who wins and who loses. So that is why I say a healer needs to be able to outheal only one damage dealer. More should not be necessary. When he faces two of them he should still be able to delay their progress, of course but not more. When it's two on one the single one should lose (not taking players' skill into account again).

 

That means of course that a skilled healer might be able to outheal more than one damage dealer if they don't know what they're doing. It also means that a single damage dealer can kill a healer on his own if the healer isn't paying attention. However with all players at their best a healer has to be able to outheal one damage dealer. More simply isn't necessary.

 

And one final time: This is just my oppinion. None of you needs to share it, but I'd ask you to respect it.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Shardas

[LancelotOC]

Ok lets go over this again.

 

If I can heal myself enough wherby one DPS can not kill me then if I keep healing I never die.

 

The minute my healing is less than a DPS damage this means if I keep healing at some point I will die. If I syop healing to DPS I die even faster.

 

The issue we are going over is one that has been discussed over the years countless times. In the end what people have decided over and over again is that a healer should survive against a solo DPS indefinatly. His DPS should be so low that a DPS will only die if consistently pursues over a long period of time.

 

Anything less than this results in it being better to just all play DPS. There is unfortunatly no way for true equal balance between a solo healer and a solo DPS. One has to be stronger. Since PVP games are about the fun of killing people the default design is to make healers the stronger class because they can not kill and loose out on that fun.

[Easpeak]

To be honest, currently, the damage is fine - it's the ridiculous amount of CC and how they are apply that's just makes it bananas for the healers. So either get rid of the CC or give healers more tools to fight the CC and I'll survive.

 

Why I think the damage is fine? Ever since patch 1.2 I've had to up my game to not die in WZs, but before that I just turreted heals.

 

SWG might not have had the most competitive PvP, but it was fun (I'm talking about high level 8 vs 8 and 16 vs 16 arena type fights) . There was only one profession that could stun you and even then s/he had to get to 4m of you. But you could not do that because bounty hunters had an AREA dire root ability that they could apply on the ground (visible to everybody, so you'd have to be an idiot to run in there) when the opposition tried to charge in - charge in at the wrong time and you got wiped. It served a purpose because then healers could actually stay behind the team and heal/cleans/clear dots. Right now it's just assist train zerging in focusing down the healer and repeat.

[mangarrage]

Posts like this are completely pointless dps want 1 dps healer want 2 or 3 with guard

 

Healers you had your days where you could just stand there and take on 2 and 3 guys and still heal your group and it didnt work

 

If 2 people of any class are attacking a healer they should die period and fast

and it seems like that is the case right now

 

It is really sad when something is just ridiculous everyone that has it thinks thats the way it should be and when they lose it they cry nerf

 

This patch really didn't nerf any class. Classes got adjusted, granted they missed 3 archtypes, but I find people funny

 

If they cut healing from where it is right now it will be nerfed, right now it is right where it should be

They problem isnt the heal adjustment it is the lack of adjustment to 3 archtypes

[LancelotOC]

I think why healers are up at arms is because DPS classes can now solo them. That the adjustment went too far.

[Dzhokhar]

A healer should NOT be able to survive indefinitely against a DPSer. That's insane.

 

Any match-up should have the potential in a 1v1 to go either way as long as both classes are playing to their full potential and using all their abilities.

 

I think an infinitely long stalemate is just as even as a fight where each side has a 50% change of winning.

 

1v1, a healer should be able to make a fight last infinitely long or, by mixing in some damage, have a 50% chance of victory. This should be the case between two players who know what they're doing (i.e. the healer getting interrupted, traumatized, etc.). Additionally, a healer should also be able to outheal the damage from 2 DPS (including interrupts, trauma, etc.) for as long as their defensive cooldowns last.

 

If a healer is allowed to freecast he should be able to outheal the damage from about 2-2.5 DPS on a tank/guarded player, and should be able to outheal the damage from about 1.5-2 DPS on an unguarded non-tank. If an unmolested healer can't exceed the output of a single DPS while freecasting, then there's no point in bringing healers into Warzones in the first place.

 

One problem that I think SWTOR has currently is that there are a number of talents that buff healers' self-healing (or healing received). If anything, healers should be worse at healing themselves (as compared to healing others), not better. These talents, in a way, make healers better tanks than tanks, and skew healers away from the support role that they should be filling (because their self-healing is superior to their ally healing).

 

Similarly, Tanks need to be adjusted so that they do less damage but have more mitigation or bonuses to healing received (and maybe a slight increase to the damage redirected by guard, or an increase to the effectiveness of taunts). As things are, Tanks are basically DPS with guard/taunt, which makes them both slightly OP (in certain group compositions), and also insufficiently distinct from pure DPS.

 

EDIT: In general for 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, etc. the team with more diversity should always have an advantage (i.e. a team with a mix of DPS/Tanking/Heals, should always beat a team stacked with one of those roles at the expense of the others). In cases like 2 DPS vs 2 Healers (where both teams have equal diversity), the match really should be just as even as the 1v1 case (if both teams employ equally good strategy).

Edited April 18, 2012 by Dzhokhar

[ImariKurumi]

Pre 1.2, a good healer can hold off 1v1, 1v2, we're most likely dead. The only reason we can survive 1v2 or even 1v3 is because there are a lot of stupid dps who blow CC and stack the healer's resolve to max, not interrupting heals or even better, interrupt the wrong heal, genius in the making. Just because 80% of the server suck at interrupting, all the healers have to take the downfall...

 

Im tellin ya guys, we have tons of genius dps in swtor....

Edited April 18, 2012 by ImariKurumi

[hairlessOrphan]

1v1 is an AWFUL standard for balance. It forces all classes to live in the same narrow bands for all roles, making everyone a hybrid, and a terrible hybrid at that.

 

The standard for balance needs to be a little more complex than "all 1v1's are stalemates."

 

I'm going to propose a first-draft definition that is already superior to the OP's implied definition of balance:

 

"Balance" in this PvP environment (three classes, eight man groups) occurs when either:

 

a) The Best Raid Composition includes every class, with no single class making up more than half the group, or

 

b) There are multiple The Best Raid Compositions (that all fight each other to stalemates *as a group*), and all classes are included in at least one The Best Raid Composition*.

 

It's absolutely OK for a solo DPS to consistently murder a solo healer. That's FINE. Balance is a problem when it is consistently the same or better, in all situations, for all existing group compositions, to replace Class A with Class B. Remember you should be getting diminishing returns with each additional Class A added to the group, such that at 4x Class A it is more beneficial to add a second or third Class B or C. To put it in specifics (for the current environment), the question right now is whether or not an 8-man PvP premade will perform the same or better by replacing the healer with a DPS, regardless of which WZ you're in or what your other teammates are. The question right now is whether the drastically reduced TTK minimizes a healer's utility below even the fifth or sixth DPS.

 

Think in terms of groups, guys. I know, I know: it's harder to think about. But the result is going to be much better.

 

*NB: yes, it would be desirable for all classes to be equally well-represented in the aggregate of all The Best Raid Compositions. But let's not get too ambitious, just yet. We're having a hard enough time with the basics.

Edited April 18, 2012 by hairlessOrphan

[Nigyl]

From another thread on this:

 

As a healer: sometimes I last for 30+ seconds against 4+ people, sometimes I die in less than 5 seconds to 2 people. I've seen enough of both extremes to be quite certain that the difference is a combination of skill, gear, and who's got their CDs available. Period.

 

DPS players see only their side: they attack a healer who doesn't die. If I (as a healer) get the wide range of results that I listed above, that's a 'good thing', imo. If the large pack is dumb and/or poorly geared and I'm 'in the groove' (i.e. still sober), I might live a looooong time. To me, that does not mean that healing is OP, because I remember the previous WZ where 2 smart and well-geared DPS dropped me in a very short fight.

[Apocalypse-]

1:1, should be an even fight if the players are equal. If they're not, and it takes 2 DPS to kill 1 healer, 8 healers. Now what? by the 2:1 ratio, you can't kill anything with effective speed, because if you spread your DPS to lockout healers, you don't have enough to kill any of them, and if you focus fire, the healing going to your FF target is double the damage you're doing to it meaning the only way you can kill it is if you hit a bunch of spike damage while all the healers are casting, which if you can time more than 1-2 major hits in between 7-8 unique cast bars on something even close to a "repeatable" basis, you're lying. And even if you do it once, you need to do it again in a couple seconds for the next healer, and the next, ..... and the next, all in time to get the objective

 

A guarded healer/tank combo should require 2 DPS to kill. If it requires 3, now you've got a 5v6 for the others in the WZ, with the only way to have that countered is to have a tank/healer combo on your own team. Now what happens if both teams have 4 healers 4 tanks? The other team needs 12 people to beat them? How in the world does that make sense?

Edited April 18, 2012 by Apocalypse-

[hairlessOrphan]

1:1, should be an even fight if the players are equal. If they're not, and it takes 2 DPS to kill 1 healer, 8 healers. Now what? by the 2:1 ratio, you can't kill anything with effective speed, because if you spread your DPS to lockout healers, you don't have enough to kill any of them, and if you focus fire, the healing going to your FF target is double the damage you're doing to it meaning the only way you can kill it is if you hit a bunch of spike damage while all the healers are casting, which if you can time more than 1-2 major hits in between 7-8 unique cast bars on something even close to a "repeatable" basis, you're lying. And even if you do it once, you need to do it again in a couple seconds for the next healer, and the next, ..... and the next, all in time to get the objective

 

A guarded healer/tank combo should require 2 DPS to kill. If it requires 3, now you've got a 5v6 for the others in the WZ, with the only way to have that countered is to have a tank/healer combo on your own team. Now what happens if both teams have 4 healers 4 tanks? The other team needs 12 people to beat them? How in the world does that make sense?

 

8 healers can not win Voidstar or Civil War. 4 healers and 4 tanks will be beaten by 3 healers, 3 tanks, and 2 DPS - because even in the best case scenario you only have three capture points to defend, so you only need 3 tank-healer pillars.

 

Even if we go with the straight-up 1v1 matchups as a basis for measuring balance (I think it's foolish, but whatever), you STILL GET DIMINISHING RETURNS on healers. Because there is such a thing as Full Health. 8 healers will not hold out against X DPS, where X is the number of DPS required to kill a single healer in one GCD.

[islander]

1.2 healing changes are making healers pretty angry. And while some others (probably other classes) say it was necessary to nerf healers, some say that it was not necessary to do it so drastically.

 

While reading through posts on this subject I realised that I don't understand class balance as others do so I would like clarification on this issue:

How many DPS attackers (sent/mara as pure DPS) should a healer be able to defend against without dying (and of course without doing any significant damage to this DPS player)?

 

Solo healer ...... one or two?

Healer with tank guarding him/her ........ two or three?

 

This is very difficult to test as all of participating players would have be of same skill, level and gear. How many times do we find ourselves in such exact situation?

 

One, and only one as a solo healer. Two similarly skilled DPS or 'tanks' should easily take down a healer.

A healer with guard? Two for sure. Then again the minute you see the shield on them, you should immediately look for whoever providing it, and wax them first. If you try to fight through a healer with all that DR incoming, you're just dumb.

[Dzhokhar]

Even if we go with the straight-up 1v1 matchups as a basis for measuring balance (I think it's foolish, but whatever), you STILL GET DIMINISHING RETURNS on healers. Because there is such a thing as Full Health. 8 healers will not hold out against X DPS, where X is the number of DPS required to kill a single healer in one GCD.

 

This is a good point. I think it's also a fair argument for why, in a group setting (i.e. freecasting), it's ok for a healer to outheal a single DPS. Ultimately, burst damage will always be able to defeat heals, no matter how good the healers are. In order to compensate for that, freecasting healers need to be able to (significantly) outheal the damage from a single DPS. Otherwise, additional DPS is always preferable to healing.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Dzhokhar

[LancelotOC]

I dont think there is much question as to whether current TTK dictates that all DPS is better than a group with a healer. Is there anyone out there that thinks it's currently better to bring a healer to a WZ over an an other DPS?

 

If you do think so can you elaborate why you feel a healer would be a better choice than an additional DPS on an assist train given the current TTK?

[DirtyBirdie]

Solo healer, 1 dps if your good.

Tank With healer, Depends :\ but I have seen it surviving up to 3 dps , if you make sure to heal the tank.

 

Heal the tank??? is THAT what you're supposed to do? wow it all makes sense now....

[LancelotOC]

Bump to the front

[JMCH]

No one to find the flaw in the "1 healer should survive 3 damage dealers" reasoning... you're all shortsighted it seems.

 

The flaw is stealth chars not being viable anymore, so in fact the issue lies right here, as in DAoC back then, and the very same issue which "required" a nerf of the operative "because of an unpleasant stunlocked trespassing".

 

I didn't say a healer had to completely negate 3 DD though, just he had to be able to heal as much as 3 DD deal themselves uninterrupted. 3 DD interrupting a healer kill him really fast even with 1/3rd its DPS, and even 2 in fact with 10" recast time after being interrupted with just 1 freely castable heal.

[LancelotOC]

But people crit with certain abilities for as much as 10k ... you are not suggesting healers should have a heal that heals for 30,000 in one cast are you?

[JMCH]

But people crit with certain abilities for as much as 10k ... you are not suggesting healers should have a heal that heals for 30,000 in one cast are you?

No, I suggest every damage dealing skill/combo should be 1/3rd of what a healer is able to heal on the same period of time (instead of 1~1.5x), but then stealth classes wouldn't be viable anymore.

[hairlessOrphan]

No, I suggest every damage dealing skill/combo should be 1/3rd of what a healer is able to heal on the same period of time (instead of 1~1.5x), but then stealth classes wouldn't be viable anymore.

 

I never really agreed with the implicit and ineffable connection between Stealth and Enormous Damage. I always thought proper design for stealth should play on the whole invisibility aspect, and not the "then I shove my foot up your ***" aspect.

 

To a certain extent, it still works in PUG Voidstar, where stealthers will give the attacking team a slight advantage by making it harder for defenders to know how to split up. IMHO what makes stealthing non-viable in Voidstar is that the two doors are a bit too close to each other and the spawn.

 

However, given that this is the design we have - and BW / EA is not going to take chances with anything remotely experimental - your point does stand.

 

This is why 1v1 still is and will always be an awful foundation for class balance, and the OP's question was misguided to begin with. What should happen is that a stealther SHOULD murder a healer 1v1. A better question is "how long should it take?" TTK matters.

Edited April 18, 2012 by hairlessOrphan

[DarthKhaos]

A Rock Paper Scissors setup is not the best way to balance any game. It has been proven by science. I propose using Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock instead.