why is bioware so darned concerned with war zones?

[LeonBraun]

Same for flashpoints.

 

Let me just cut off your reply at the knees. More people run warzones than flashpoints. So you can't use the losing subscriptions argument to support your position.

 

Your turn.

 

More people are running Warzones now because they've blown through the Operations and there is nothing else left...

 

Of course more people are running WZ's right now.

[maxetius]

Even Bio realizes that PvP is important if they want to keep a large chunk of their playerbase's subscriptions.

 

Because PVP Hardcores are the lifeblood of the MMO community. Just ask Shadowbane.

 

Shadowbane was proof that you can build a game completely around PvP ... with tons of mechanics supporting it, and tons of races and classes, interesting storyline .. and the PvP players will still complain that the game blows and there is nothing to do. Which actually reminded me a lot of the complaints about TOR and every other MMO ever.

 

 

So sorry... gotta disagree with you there. PVP is at best a sideshow and it's best it stays that way.

 

 

*added stuff to post

Edited April 4, 2012 by maxetius

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[Ferrydust]

Most of the people I play with ONLY PVP. Myself included. Some of you only PVE. Everyone deserves new content. Just because I don't PVE I would never say that the PVE'ers don't deserve new content. That would be silly.

[eGraced]

These posts are funny. The studies, server log research, and all non-anecdotal evidence indicates that most MMO players play, to varying degrees, ALL CONTENT offered in the game. PvE focused players PvP on occasion, PvPers run PvE content. For heaven's sake, people spend hours FISHING. In an MMO! Just because it's there.

 

So to say BioWare should focus more or less on your favorite aspect of their game to please a higher percentage of the customer base is absurd, because the highest percentage of the customer base values ALL CONTENT, not just your favorite, to at least some degree.

 

I will however also note: there is no point in arguing demographics with narcissists.

Edited April 4, 2012 by eGraced

[kercchaos]

Can I say something?

 

I want everything! Everything!

[Bobinstein]

not wanting this game to fail does not make me a narcissist

[Stadulator]

If you're in the mode of "not wanting the game to fail" how did you get to this spot? What is making you think it will fail?

 

Honestly, not wanting a game to fail shouldn't even be an issue this early in a title's release.

[Skelige]

if WZ were removed from te game completely tomorrow, absolutely nothing else would change.

Your arrogance blinds you. Now you will experience the full power of the empty servers

[Agilard]

I"m about ready to give up WZ all together.. Why? Because most days I'm just food for the others.. Just yesterday, I and a friend queued up and it was always the same TEAM.. I was a 28 trooper, buddy a 27 trooper, and we were the 2nd and 3rd highest level toons for the Rebs.. We did have a 40 Jedi, but everyone else was in their teens or low 20's... We were NEVER close to winning any WZ.. The Imps were solid with no one under 25th level and most of their team was 40 plus.. We stood NO chance against them.. The gear stats were just too wide spread to compete.. We would end one WZ and enter another with the exact same teams.....

 

So why bother playing

 

is that our fault? its yours. if you really wanted you can learn how to play the game and get better. even though you know the basic rules of the wz there are still strategies that you have to think of and act on. meaning just knowing the rules about the wz doesn't mean you will win. also it all depends on how effective your leadership is. if you think you can lead a wz then go for it. a 4 man pre-made is enough to make a difference in the game. do this and you will win more wz then you can imagine. also the "so why bother playing," attitude isn't going to get you anywhere. i'd suggest changing it, because if you do ever happen to lead a wz, you do affect your teammates also. have more backbone bro, seriously we all had to start somewhere.

[Agilard]

Your arrogance blinds you. Now you will experience the full power of the empty servers

 

it's not his fault, some people is just not into pvp. some take pvp as a sport and some just don't. either way, if they removed pvp, say goodbye to half of the population of swtor. why? because people who post on swtor forums is pvpers. check out the pvp forums, or pts if you want proof. also, what is the point of running full pve all the time besides to get gear? if they had no pvp, i would be getting pve armor to show people that i can solo very good? is that what the change in swtor will become lol. oh hey, i'm in full rakata, i can solo this pve monster better then you can. meh if they made an mmo that had no type of pvp involved at all, i wouldn't even look at it. but that's just me.

[eGraced]

not wanting this game to fail does not make me a narcissist

 

Agreed. That would not.

 

The intent of the statement was to point out that narcissists believe they and their opinions are the only valid opinion on any given topic. It also pointed out that information on demographics tends not to matter to narcissists because they don't see the validity of other people's opinions anyway.

 

Now, on the other hand, believing that statement was specifically aimed at you, and only you, would seem to imply a narcissistic tendency. Just a thought.

[AMKSED]

Because people are more interested in PvP than lolPvE.

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[eGraced]

Not quoting for brevity. You can read it above. Very insiteful

 

You do present a very well reasoned opinion. Although I do agree with you that the "one-stop-shop" mentality can be very harmful, I'm not quite sure it completely applies here. As games like this get called "Themepark MMOs" I will use that analogy, as it is somewhat accurate.

 

If you have ever been to a themepark, they have multiple rides, shows, attractions, etc. Although many people may prefer to ride one ride or enjoy one attraction exclusively, most will spend their time spread out between these attractions. Part of the reason is the line you have to wait in for a given attraction, of course, but most want to have more than one experience in the park. No theme park would stay in business with only one or two attractions, no matter how good they are. MMOs are similar, and when you look at the variety of underachieving games in the genre, often they do one thing very well, like raiding, Questing or PvP, but fall short on other options.

 

In the end, variety keeps people logged in, which keeps subscriptions active, and keeps developers employed.

[Kaskava]

I can’t speak about others, but I’ll tell you why I have bias against PVP.

 

I’m strictly a solo player. If you want why, be aware, there’s math, it’s in the spoiler…

 

Apart from EQ and COH, I have tried other MMOs, mostly because my wife, best friend, and a few other friends love MMOs.

 

Some of them (not saying TOR), but some MMOs start off with NO PVP at all.

 

PVP crowd complains “Why is there no PVP?”

So the dev adds a token PVP.

PVP crowd complains “Why is there no GOOD PVP?”

So the dev adds a Good PVP.

Since the other MMOs I’ve played were low budget, this came at the expense of PVE and Solo new content. So more PVP players come in, more PVE / Solo go away. Soon, the game is all about PVP, and people like me leave… when the game started off… as NON PVP.

 

Now, a real question to the PVPers = How much marketing was made about the PVP part in TOR? Granted, I’m biased because, since I like Story Driven, I personally noticed all the adds that talked only about Story driven. It’s very very possible that I missed the PVP marketing. If so, then the PVPers have every right to complain if there is no focus here in TOR.

 

I would say there is little marketing done towards PvE content. All of the commericals consists of Sith fighting Jedi, and Republic troopers fighting Imperial troopers. Never once did I see anything related to the Rakata. Or about Revan. Or even Rhakghouls.

 

I did see plenty of Troopers, Smugglers, Knights, and Shadows fighting Imperial analogues in semi-closed environments. I didn't see small teams fighting big bosses. Or even big teams fighting big bosses. The closest thing was the Return trailer, and that quickly became a 2 on 1 fight. You could say that that just shows them fighting trash, but I would counter that it demonstrates player duels and PvP challenges.

 

Even the class trailers had a focus on PvP. The trooper and knight vs. the inquisitor. The inquisitor vs the knight. A bit less so in the warrior and bh class video from what I can remember.

 

The in-game launch trailer thing they did also had a heavy PvP feature with Ilum.

 

The only story parts of the ads I saw where the names Star Wars: The Old Republic and BioWare. And this is coming from someone who primarily does PvE content.

 

CoH, for example, had Arenas only as PVP on Year 1, and they weren’t used much. With CoV, PVP had a small upswing, and then, down it went a year after that. The CoX devs throw a bone here and there at the PVP crowd, but overall, it was quite dead because it never ever was the focus of the game.

 

Fortunetly, BioWare didn't stick with the same focus. I agree the PvE is the biggest focus of the game, and see no reason why it shouldn't be, but that shouldn't drastically slow PvP development.

 

In my experience, in my very limited contact with other people IRL that play MMOs, the PVPers I know often want to turn non-PVP games into a PVP game… then turn a PVP mixed game into a PVP focused game… then turn a PVP focused game into a pure PVP game. Some of the “The only good player is a PVP one” posts seem to support that mentality, into shaming / insulting / motivating / educating (depending on your mood) people into going into PVP.

 

So far, I'm loving WZs, and find them far more challenging and rewarding (before even getting the rewards) then the raids. With the exception of the social interaction. Now, I've only done Normals so far, and I find them really easy. Unfortunetly, I do WZs solo, so there's not a lot of joking around going on in them. I can't say I've ever felt one play style was better then the other. But, I do know from personal experience that many PvE players try to destroy PvP.

 

The number of times I've heard someone itching in a raid about a PvP balance nerfed that knocked someone from the top spot, or forced them to adapt their rotation is staggering. So, the mentality does go both ways. When it comes down to it, I would say PvP class balance is far more important then PvE balancing. What BioWare needs to avoid is the FotM balance that seemed to plague WoW.

 

I never once saw a PvP nerf that caused a class to become completely unusable. Saw people have to switch up their specs/rotations every know and then, but never have to reroll. Unless they wanted face roll easy.

 

Conversley, I saw PvE nerfs make classes useless in PvP.

 

Some…SOME… PVPers seem like the Amway salespeople of MMOs. You agree with them when face to face (or board to board so to speak), but 20 min after you’ve purchased their product / agreed to play their way, you scratch your head and go… WHY did I agree to do this again?

 

I’m sure the same can be said about some… SOME…PVE and Solo players.

 

And, speaking personally, that if we talk about ADDITIONAL content since launch, if you count 1.2…

 

PVEers got / will get soon a few FP / OP, and new dailies.

PVPers got / will get soon a WZ. (less that PVE content, I’ll agree)

Solo Story people get… bupkis.

 

Solo players get a bunch of class/species unlocks, new abilities on their toons to mess around with, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting about that involves alts. They're also coming out with an entirely new planet. It just doesn't seem like Solo players are getting much, since Raiders (I'm counting anyone who does group content) and PvPers can take part in all of that stuff. Solo players, due to their play choice, will likely not be partaking of the new raid, FP, and WZ.

 

That's not bias, that's just reaching out to the greatest number of people possible.

 

No Chapter 4. No eta on Ch. 4. Not even a “soon”. So, I’ll admit to sour grapes when I see new group, raid and PVP content. Not very sour. I could live with waiting if they did updates about chapters as much as they did updates about PVE and PVP.

 

I wouldn't expect to see chapter four until the first expansion. As it is right now, the Empire and Republic are just getting embroiled in a war.

 

But, objectively, as a soloer with story, I think TOR is spending in updates (not saying initial release, just updates) much more time and effort on PVE than PVP. So, I can understand the PVP player feeling neglected next to the PVE one.

 

I would agree. It does seem like PvE gets more out of it, but PvE is the main focus of the game.

 

Of course, chapter/story based players feel neglected next to the PVP ones; so imagine how we feel next to the PVE.

 

Again, new chapters will probably come with expansions. The main focus right now seems to be the growing conflict between the Empire and Republic.

 

I’m a pretty good defender of this game, but I do feel a little bait and switched.

 

BW = Come play this game! It’s story focused. Your sub will pay for new content.

 

Me = Great. I’ll sub.

 

BW = Awesome, thanks for the money. For our first update = a Flashpoint.

 

Me = Uh… ok. No mini-arcs? I know it’s too soon for a Chapter, but something? Even CoH releases a monthly 3-4 mission arc, and they are F2P now…

 

BW = And, as promised, another FP, and OP, and a WZ in 1.2.

 

Me = Um… guys… story driven? That ring a bell?

 

BW = Don’t worry. We hear you loud and clear. More PVP. More PVE. More QoL coming soon.

 

Me = Anyone there?

 

(insert complaint about lack of MMO, unstable engine, bad PVP, instead of my own complaint at will).

 

I can’t defend the company for that….

 

The game is story driven. It's just not all in the area you want. Once more, most of the story is focused on the general conflicts, and on new planets and flash points, which will effect the greater majority. Solo players are only going to ever see a small fraction of the game because they're solo players. Versus someone like me, who does all of it.

 

Just because it's not focused on continuing the class story doesn't mean that it isn't still story driven.

 

TL;DR = In other games, some PVPers aggressively try and turn the focus to PVP even though the game started as PVE and attracted the PVE crowd. Was TOR marketed as having a strong PVP part? If so, then PVPers here have every right to need a significant PVP focus. If not, this Story based game is unlikely to make PVPers happy…

 

(Meant as honest questions, fyi)

 

I believe I already answered that part.

[sparkykey]

You are contradicting yourself constantly as you post. That's for starters OP. Your "concept" of wz pvp is absurd, if you run around and cast "till it times out" then you don't know how to play. Pvp whether it's open world or wz, is strategic, thought out, and carefully planned. Titles are easter eggs that ppl just grab for fun, so why even whine about that. You blow up the concept of open world pvp WAY out of proportion for this game, cause it isn't 50 vs. 50, and if it was it'd be the same playstyle as a wz so you're FAIL on that concept. How does open world pvp kills make me feel any better then a wz kill, it's a kill doesn't matter a kill is a kill nothing more then that. If you fall asleep going "Man I really beat up that jedi." instead of "Man I won 5 wz's today and prolly killed like 90 ppl." What sounds more like an accomplishment to you? (Knowing this ignorant guy he'll "say" the one is more important LOL) "Poorly designed shooter" *** IS THAT?! Half the classes don't even use a gun, do you think when you type or do you argue just for the sake of arguing? "If you remove wz from the game" You think removing a major part of the game concept that they spent years on isn't going to affect the population ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?! Oh and pve and pvp servers do matter on the skill of players in and out of warzones, because pvp servers generally have higher quality pvper's cause they dedicate themselves to that (no offense pve server ppl). "Weekend warriors" prolly take up 40% of swtors community, idk bout you but when i work ten hr shifts five days a week busting my ***** on my days off I think I would like to enjoy my time playing a game I like whether it be pvp, OR pve. (Sorry that some of us have a life and/or a job) "Real gamers focus on things that matter" yeah that's why ppl are prestige 30 on C.O.D lose all equipment just to start all over again, cause upping that prestige MATTERS lol.... right. Let's see what else do we have here. Part timers leave... hmmm... part timers stay longer then you no life, or job "real gamers" cause they get to enjoy the game for everything it's worth over years... where sadly, you are out of materials already, hence the QQing. You cannot put words in other ppl mouths "true gamers" this and "real gamers" that, talk for yourself and let others either agree with you, or bash you like the other 80% of the ppl that posted on this thread, cause you are just downright wrong on so many levels. WTH is the "right way to pvp" according to you... Faceroll on your keyboard...? Last I checked you used your abilities to defeat your opponent/ or to complete objectives... or is that not the "right way to pvp" In closing, your signature is actually a threatening statement, and therefore is reportable so you might wanna fix that you hypocrite. Have a great day.

[sparkykey]

Forgot to mention something crucial,you want more pve stuff right, you wanna lvl to 55, 60 maybe even 70 right, well here's a little food for thought. World of Warcraft came out in November of 2004, it took TWO YEARS, wait for it, I'm gonna say it again in caps TWO YEARS for them to bring out Burning Crusade, so how about you back off Bioware and give them time to think up an expansion, let alone bring it out. Think about that!

[snowmon]

because more people are doing WZs than open world pvp or operations?

 

this is true, however thats only cause they put in a group finder for it and not for PvE.

[Kaskava]

Forgot to mention something crucial,you want more pve stuff right, you wanna lvl to 55, 60 maybe even 70 right, well here's a little food for thought. World of Warcraft came out in November of 2004, it took TWO YEARS, wait for it, I'm gonna say it again in caps TWO YEARS for them to bring out Burning Crusade, so how about you back off Bioware and give them time to think up an expansion, let alone bring it out. Think about that!

 

Have you seen some of his replies? Short little quips with 0 supporting evidence.

[deags]

If you want to lose half the player base, then sure no focus on warzones...

 

Edited April 4, 2012 by deags

[Tickdoff-Tank]

Speaking only for me, I can't stand PvP. I only play PvE. And I would love to see even more fun stuff added for end-game and even new planets and quests for leveling up.

 

That said, I know a lot of people enjoy PvP and prefer it to the PvE game that I enjoy. So they do need to improve the PvP experience. We do have more to do on the PvE side than the PvPers do, so I can accept the devs spending more time on PvP.

 

I just hope that they balance it out. I do not want nerfs caused by PvP to change the PvE game, and I also do not want PvE balance to destroy PvP.

 

I think City of Heroes had the right idea.. powers work differently in PvP zones than they do in PvE, but CoH had a host of other issues with PvP (or so the player base constantly reported). I do not know if that would ever be a workable solution unless it was built into the game from day 1.

[NoTomorrow]

Bioware is doing the right thing. Warzones are important and enough resources should be directed towards them. It's more accessible to the masses thanks to the queue system. I don't need to wait every other week for a shot at an operation and hope for a spot in it.

Once you figure out the boss mechanics the PVE is bland and repetitive, it's just a simple gear grind.

[Lxkane]

Personally I only do pvp warzones for the armor. If it were craftable or purchasable with pvp then I wouldn't care if were warzone were removed entirely.

 

On a side note, this is the first MMO I've played where the pvp wasn't fueled by the pve part of the game. Where being the best in the overall game wasn't required to the best pvper.

 

In all the previous MMOs I've played, the reason for getting to all the end game pve stuff was so you could have the best gear when it came time to compete with others. So for me with the pvp and pve gear being separated like this it invalidate both sets of gear to some extent.

[HeavensAgent]

Real PvP gamers realize that the same mechanics and techniques they use in open-world PvP play can utilized in general PvP play. They enjoy all aspects of PvP, including warzones, and apply their skills in all circumstances.

 

Warzones are a far more popular form of PvP than open-world play. That's where the player focus is, and that's where the developer focus should be.