Marauder/Sentinel Cooldowns need to be longer

[croza]

It's still a 100% absorb isn't it? It might not absorb as much as you'd like, but it still offers a better chance to escape death than any amount of armor gives. I'd wear 0 armor if I could be given a bubble on my trooper.

 

what do you mean by absorb????

[kweassa]

Fine? FINE?

 

Saber ward, Cloak of Pain, Obfuscate, Undying Rage, In combat Vanish, predation. All that on a mobile top damage class.

 

[Rebuke/Cloak of Pain]

- Stun or KB, wait a few seconds

- hit with movement speed debuff,

- gain and maintain distance lower than minimum of Force Leap/Charge but further than melee

 

[Pacify/Obfuscate]

- do the same if you're a Sentinel

- 8 second mez

 

[PBF/Undying Rage]

- Stun or KB, wait a few seconds

 

[Force Camo]

- Wait 4 seconds, get ready to retarget

 

The only self buff they have which is cannot be directly countered would be Zen/Predation and Saber Ward, but then every class has one or two of such. All the others you have mentioned, I notice all of its activation animations and get ready to counter it as described, which is the reason why I check if I have the necessary powers at my disposal when facing a Mara/Sent.

 

The only beef I have with them is even if well-countered, the damage disparity between my own class and Maras/Sents are so high that I can still be in seriously trouble just by being hit with some half-hearted power they throw at my way.

 

The capacity to burst up such high damage in a single combo cycle is at the heart of this 'MaraSent' problem, not their defense. They're inherently melee, and DPS or tank, melees need some amount of self defense method to be able to function properly. The melees that are devoid of such functions are what we call the "Rogue types" - melees relying on stealth to deliver mega damage and escape, with zero chance of survival in a dead-heat, face-to-face confrontation.

 

I don't think MaraSents are "Rogue" types, do you?

[aeterno]

No.

 

You have it the wrong way around.

 

If you think your class/other classes are weaker...then BUFF them to a different state or back to where they were.

 

Why would you want regression rather than progression?

 

Because number inflation is what kills (these) games. What was a running joke in WoW a few months back when devs said something allong the lines of decluttering screens of all the massive numbers floating texts? That the screen would just flash "MEGA DAMAGE" like in some arcade fighter game lol?

 

 

Problem with mara is quite situational but it gets highlighted a lot by the cheese mechanics employed in certain warzones and 1v1 scenarios. While it's atleast true that WZs are objective based the current clas setup is somewhat detrimental to long term pvp development of tor and is imo sure to change, if not sooner when arenas launch (lol).

 

Our server for instance held dueling tournaments but it's kinda pointless when you can all but bet that one class will dominate the later brackets. Yea some classes are better 1v1 than others but there's and edge and there's the ridicolous. I not so humbly consider myself a good pvper and routinely beat maras in wzs (thank od for fotm baddies) but the "oh sith" button just kills competition among players of equal skill. Whoever thinks 5sec on the back end of a duel when dots are ticking your bar away aren't a "big deal" never had a proper fight with a mara lol.

[kweassa]

Of course it's that legendary 31/31/31 build that only maras/sents can achieve!

 

Actually it's a combination any MaraSent can easily arrive at. One example would be a combination of repeated use of Overload/Deadly Sabre with the effects of Ataru and Precision Slash/Gore. Another would be increased synergy to Master Strike/Ravage coming from a mix of Precision Slash/Gore and Master Focus/Ravager from Focus/Rage.

[Darth_Sookie]

And again, care to learn some basics first? What combat vanish are you talking about?

 

BTW, talking about mobility. Sents/Maras suffers most from beeing rooted/slowed, roots/slows effectively kills any mobility of this class. You know, that rooted mara/sent cant use charge, right?

 

You wont believe but best defence is AOE taunt. 30% damage mitigation for 7 people in wz, beat this!

 

Don't play stupid. You know as well as i do that i'm talking about Force Camouflage. (i have a marauder so don't try to play that card with me son). It is exactly what i said, a away to completely Vanish in the middle of combat while simultaneously mitigating 50% of all damage).

 

Also pretty much every other class suffer the same problems with roots so donät play the victim here.

 

You do have a point about AOE taunt though.

[Darth_Sookie]

[Rebuke/Cloak of Pain]

- Stun or KB, wait a few seconds

- hit with movement speed debuff,

- gain and maintain distance lower than minimum of Force Leap/Charge but further than melee

 

[Pacify/Obfuscate]

- do the same if you're a Sentinel

- 8 second mez

 

[PBF/Undying Rage]

- Stun or KB, wait a few seconds

 

[Force Camo]

- Wait 4 seconds, get ready to retarget

 

 

In an ideal world where a juggernaut has all cooldowns up and the marauder doesnt have break free up and nobody hits the marauder with anything this might work.

 

Hillarious though that the counter is avoiding the marauder for 21 seconds.

[AzKnc]

Camo should be every 2 mins, and guarded should either be removed alltogether cause it really makes no sense whatsoever as a skill, OR be made so that all damage done is also reduced by 99% for the duration.

[kweassa]

Don't play stupid. You know as well as i do that i'm talking about Force Camouflage. (i have a marauder so don't try to play that card with me son). It is exactly what i said, a away to completely Vanish in the middle of combat while simultaneously mitigating 50% of all damage).

 

Also pretty much every other class suffer the same problems with roots so donät play the victim here.

 

You do have a point about AOE taunt though.

 

...which I find to be nothing special. I'd be slightly miffed if it was total disengagement like how Asses and Shads, or Ops and Scoundies can do, but it's for 4 seconds.

 

In those 4 seconds, you can prepare yourself with what comes next. With repeated PvP experience and some brain activity, we can more or less anticipate what is going to happen with reasonable reliability. It is these sort of 'thinking' about stuff what makes PvP so fun.

 

For instance, when a Marasent uses it while being low in HP, you know he is using it for escape. Look around quickly and the first place you should turn your eyes to would be a nearby obstacle which may hide him. The second place is a path leading to other enemy players. In either case he is going to make a run for it, and 4 seconds later you will be able to confirm it.

 

When Marasents use it with not much HP loss, he's looking for a tactical advantage, most probably going to attempt to distance himself and open up with another Force Leap/Charge. Those with bigger balls attempt to come close and try to land an immob power, a stun, or a big opener. In either case you check to see if you have your CC breaker readt, and if not, get ready to use a defensive CD, or, another simple method would be to run to your own friendlies, in which case with almost 100% probability he is going to pop out with a Force Leap or some other slowing power.

 

 

It's not really that much of a problem. Yes, the Marasent can escape. Then you simply look for round 2 and go elsewhere. Simple as that. You can't catch fish all the time.

[AzKnc]

 

Hillarious though that the counter is avoiding the marauder for 21 seconds.

 

Yeah lol... good luck with that, i don't think it's even possible to avoid them for 3-4 let alone 21. Oh and right after those 3-4 seconds you're dead btw. Fun.

[kweassa]

In an ideal world where a juggernaut has all cooldowns up and the marauder doesnt have break free up and nobody hits the marauder with anything this might work.

 

Hillarious though that the counter is avoiding the marauder for 21 seconds.

 

The difference between experienced players and scrubs, is how much one tries and practices, to make one's combat flow match that image of the "ideal world" you mention.... and do it again, and again, and again, and again, through all the failures, humiliation, grueling losses... until finally you can match that "ideal" state to a reliable degree and chance.

 

(Ofcourse, your double standard that so casually assumes the enemy Marasent will have all of the above mentioned skills at hand, is also something that needs to be refuted)

 

 

Luke: "I don't believe it!"

Yoda: "That is why you fail"

 

- Scene Dagoba, The Empire Strikes Back -

 

 

Practice some more, padawan.

[charoi]

Don't play stupid. You know as well as i do that i'm talking about Force Camouflage. (i have a marauder so don't try to play that card with me son). It is exactly what i said, a away to completely Vanish in the middle of combat while simultaneously mitigating 50% of all damage).

 

Compleletely vanish, sure. For evelasting four seconds! It's just insane! And God forbid to target sent/mara again!

 

Well, it even doesnt drop combat, son! Just watch the red dot.

 

Also pretty much every other class suffer the same problems with roots so donät play the victim here.

Sure , if by "the same problems" you mean "cant move" than you're right. But effectively rooted/slowed sent/mara cant' deliver her insane dps.. Should i explain more in detail?

[Eommer]

I never cry about one class because usually the most overpower class is the first one to get nerf. Usually.

But something is really wrong with how the classes are design here. A mara, a pure dps class, can survive way better then a Jugg/DPS spec. since the both classes are melee and both spec for dps should be really close right?

 

If they make more dps Im cool with that, but better survival? The defensive cooldowns are really low imho. I fight with some mara/sentinal and they use that shield. No hit at all (way better then Jugg that just reduce the damage). I die, revive come back and start fight with the guy again. OMG he is using the shield again. Insane.

 

Plus that new skill for Jugg is COMPLETE useless, special for a rage spec guy. I use that with full Rage Bar and I get only one small real. Pathetic. For Vengeance at least reduces the dmg taken...

[kickinhead]

10-20 Seconds to each Stealth and 99% Immunity would go a long way balancing the Class.

 

You could easily double the CD on those two and they'd still be very viable and probably the best CD's in the game. ^^'

[ComeAndSee]

Cloak of Pain

Instant

Cooldown: 60s

Reduces all damage taken by 20% and deals 134 energy damage to attackers. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds. Lasts 6 seconds. Cloak of Pain refreshes to its full duration when attacked, but this effect cannot last more than 30 seconds in total.

 

This really is the only ability IMHO that needs a look at. It shouldn't refresh on DOT ticks. In mass PvP it makes Marauders basically tanks. It gives them an advantage 1v1 because you have to stop attacking them in order to get it to fall off.

 

Undying Rage

Instant

Cooldown: 90s

Spends 50% of current health to grant 99% damage reduction for 5 seconds.

 

Never knew about the 50% health reduction. Seems like a small penalty when you're low HP. IMHO, remove the 50% health reduction and add a 50% damage dealt reduction instead.

 

//

 

Really, the two things above are the only things I find ridiculous with Sentinels. Their damage is fine, even though I got crit for 5k (as a Tank) by the last tick of Ravage yesterday.

Edited April 24, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[dunkelhaar]

You all got it wrong! Marauders need no nerf, they are fine!!!

 

 

 

it's just all other classes need a buff

[broganthomas]

Last reply in this thread because I can't handle the level of fail/complaints/ignorance for much longer...

 

I bet 9 out of 10 of the people complaining have never played a Sentinel/Marauder, or even taken the time to actually look into our abilities.

 

Are we a strong class? Yes.

 

God-mode/Overpowered? No.

 

Smart use of CCs and watching what a Sent/Mara does will go a long way, I promise.

 

If you want to nerf our defensive cooldowns, then give me some of what your classes got.

 

I could use that Shadow Resilience.

Or those Sorc Stuns and Speed.

Maybe that Guardian push and un-channeled stun.

Full Stealth from Operatives and on the fly-heals would be nice too.

 

But that won't happen now, will it? Because a melee-DPS class that is very squishy needs these defensive CDs.

 

And you all need to learn how to deal with them, like I deal with your classes, what did you call it, overpowered-ness/god-mode/insane awesome leet skills?

 

Every class (that isn't mine) is overpowered and its BW's fault. Not mine. Did I do it right?

 

LOL every class that isn't yours... Hello, I'm earth, have we met?

Edited April 24, 2012 by broganthomas

[broganthomas]

Yeah lol... good luck with that, i don't think it's even possible to avoid them for 3-4 let alone 21. Oh and right after those 3-4 seconds you're dead btw. Fun.

 

Yeah, and if they slap a snare on you good luck.

[SeloDaoC]

Longer CD on charge, 1 min

Lower damage by 99% on cloak of pain

Make roots build resolve

Lower damage overall 15%

[kweassa]

This really is the only ability IMHO that needs a look at. It shouldn't refresh on DOT ticks. In mass PvP it makes Marauders basically tanks. It gives them an advantage 1v1 because you have to stop attacking them in order to get it to fall off.

 

20% is certainly not a figure to be trifled with, but it isn't like it gives them a second life. If I crit a Marasent with a more or less nice damage count of 2,500, 20% mitigation will result in 500 mitigated and still 2k damage. Over a long run that 500 mitigation can certainly make a big difference, but certainly not like a tank. At best, it delays your death long enough against a single enemy to kill him before you can get killed, but against a group.. it's almost meaningless.

 

Even 40% mitigation with Warding Call on a Guardian with heavy armor, means almost next to nothing when you're getting ganked by more than two people.

 

 

Never knew about the 50% health reduction. Seems like a small penalty when you're low HP. IMHO, remove the 50% health reduction and add a 50% damage dealt reduction instead.

 

Honestly, GBF and UDR is never a factor at all. It could mean something in a chaotic fray with everyone fighting up at close quarters, where a Marasent you thought would be killed manages to survive just 5 seconds longer, already running at full resolve, and manages to take a couple of enemies with it as it topples over after that 5 seconds.

 

However, in any kind of controlled combat, GBF and UDR just doesn't make any real difference. It is so very easily countered, especially when you meet an enemy who knows how to control Resolve and refuses to just blow every CD he has and give Marasents a full resolve when it is running low in HP.

 

The only people who have problems with a Marasent and their GBF/UDR, are those who just stand right up in front of it and think he/she can just have a punch-for-punch straight up confrontation against it... what happens is the fight goes on, both parties are low in HP, the person thinks he will win since he has a bit higher HP, and then the Marasent turns on GBF/UDR and turns the tables around.

 

This is a L2P issue. Foolish tactics.

 

 

Really, the two things above are the only things I find ridiculous with Sentinels. Their damage is fine, even though I got crit for 5k (as a Tank) by the last tick of Ravage yesterday.

 

The damage is the wrong part.

 

6 seconds of Gore/Precision Slash at 100% penetration of armor, if you think about it, is like a Jugg/Guardian would lose that 50~60% damage mitigation and at 0% damage resistance (excluding the ones coming from expertise). A Master Strike/Ravage combo straight after Gore/PS is basically on average 6k~9k damage incoming, provided all three hits land as crits with the mods switched to high surge. What's worse, you can come up with a hybrid Combat-Focus build that utilizes both Precision Slash-Master Strike combo AND Singularity/Felling Blow-Force Sweep combo.

 

It's why I said we're darned lucky people still mostly stick to the Watchman-Combat fad and don't think for themselves to try out other builds.