What's missing in SWtOR? It's called a Grind.

[ACLucius]

I think you are making a lot of assumptions as to what people like. I can agree as much that this game allows you to level very quickly and probably too quickly. However, I do not agree that so many people love grinds. Most people I have played MMOs with agree that grinds are perhaps the worst part.

 

However, there is only one time I will agree that grinds are a good thing, and that is when it is a group based grind. I'll give an example from a past game.

 

I used to play a game called Perfect World. When I first started, it was a very typical MMORPG. The first 35 levels or so you could do simply from questing. After that, each level you had to grind more and more to get your levels. It was to the point where it took over a year to even get close to max level. In fact, the first person to reach max level on the NA version of the game was two years, almost three years after it first came out.

 

That was an unrealistic grind simply because after you got so far, you just didn't care anymore. So, they added in a new way to grind. After level 40, you would get a daily quest, or more of a daily series because it was 3 different quests you got consecutively. Now, here is a little explanation of how it worked.

 

Every 10 levels, starting from 19, you would get a special quest to do a certain dungeon, and the mobs in the dungeon would reflect that. For a group of people at that level, it would take about 3 hours to complete it if you did it flawlessly. This daily though would give you a quest to kill the bosses in the dungeon that was below you. Level 40-49 would do the dungeon at 29, 50-59 did the dungeon at 39, and so on up to the 90-99 range. Even a great group would still take close to 2 hours to do these. However, the experience you got for doing these dailies made it well worth it and replaced an entire day of grinding.

 

Now, had they stopped there and kept that as the most efficient way to grind for experience, it would still have taken 3-4 months just to get close to end game. Unfortunately, they didn't stop there and it eventually got out of hand to where you didn't have to do anything but take your alts on a high level dungeon run and they would reach mid 90's in a week, max level being 105.

 

I went a little off my point there, but what I mean is that the original grind was a bore, and the final solution was too easy. They do need that middle ground where it is just enough.

 

That said, 50 in this game is a temporary max level. I doubt they would actually keep the max level there. Eventually, they will add more levels, and it is after this that they should implement a grind of sorts. It definitely shouldn't be a mob grind because of the limits they put on our AoE's for how many we can hit. It shouldn't just be a set of dailies like we have at 50 because doing the same kill x mobs gets dull. Having people do dailies where they have to run one or two flash points or ops each day to level, that would at least make it more interesting simply because group content is usually more fun.

 

We don't need huge grinds in this game. It does need to cater to a larger demographic. A little bit of a grind beyond just doing your quests and dailies and you will level in no time just so people still have things to look forwards to would be nice.

[System_TOR]

What SWtOR is missing is the grind, plain and simple! I have been playing these addictive games since UO beta way back in the day and played most notable titles along the way. The biggest thing that I have seen change over these years is that games are moving away from any sort of grind.

 

Let us consider what exactly most consider a "grind". It is the process of leveling up, right? That is part of it, another part is instances, crafting, PvP and then there is just general exploration. All of these areas are a grind in some form or another. A grind usually indicates some sort of challenge that requires a good amount of time sink and all of those are exactly that.

 

So let us start with leveling, SWtOR has no type of grind in this area. I did the power gaming thing through many titles through out the years and decided I would just take it easy with this mmo. Even doing this I hit 50 in less than 1 month, and that was with doing most of the "Heroic" missions, the bonus series on most planets and making sure I had at least hit all areas of the map. There is simply no challenge in leveling, I maybe died a total of 10x on both my toons and that was usually because I was trying to solo a orange "elite". I could only wish that I could do this even when I was powergaming in some past titles. Sooo, no grind/challenge here.

 

Another part of a the "Grind" is usually instances. Why I will admit that I have not done a whole lot of them in SWtOR, I have listened to guildies discuss them, read the forum remarks on them, watched "General" chat while waiting for the PvP que and I have run some of them. There is no grind in this area either. I am sorry but if people are running successful pug's through "Hard Modes" and Ops with in the first 3 months of release then there simply can not be a grind here. The grind in instances should be having to figure them out by dieing 10-20x and coming back for more just to say you have downed such and such boss. People had cleared the hard mod stuff within a couple weeks of release. You have to give people a challenge, especially in this area. In most mmo's you don't have multiple raiding nights so that you can hit multiple Op's, you have them so you can try and finish up the one you started earlier in the week. This is what most mmo's are sustained on, that instance challenge at max level that you just can't seem to get past. I will digress from this area though because even though I have personally chosen not to run these, there definitely seems to be a lack of a challenge in this area.

 

So let's move on to crafting. Simply put, there is absolutely no grind here. I love the crafting aspect of mmo's, always have. But let's be honest, there is no challenge in the crafting. I had all of my crafting skills to 400 well before 50, had all of my companions to max affection prior to 50 and had many T1 and a couple of T2 recipes for level 50 gear by the time I hit 50. There is no gathering materials, there is no taking time out of your playing to actually craft something and there is no killing hundreds of mobs to get that specific recipe. Those are all grinds and crafters love them, in SWtOR we have all these lil slaves to complete anything in this area.

 

Now on to PvP. PvP did/does have a grind for gear. In this area they actually did leave a little bit of a grind because of the Valor reqs on some of the gear and the way you had to purchase the gear prior to hitting 60 valor. While I will admit the presence of a grind here, it is a very small grind. It took me all of 2 weeks get full Champion Gear, hit Valor level 60 and start in on the BM gear. That was playing about 2 hours a night and not pvping at all until I hit 50. Well, even this little grind is gone as of 1.2.

 

Finally, all of the Easter Eggs. Well these are a grind to a point. But in most mmos these are rare items that you are lucky to get even if you put in the time to get to where they are supposed to be. Simply because they were on a lengthy respawn timer. In SWtOR, get past the bugs and get there and you are guaranteed to find said item, grab it and move on to the next one. Not to mention this is usually something most folks do while completely bored on an off night and most don't even consider doing simply because they were usually novelty items. In SWtOR a lot of these easter eggs are datacrons and there for a competitive player will either get them as they are leveling up or grab them all in a good night of playing once they hit 50. I won't even go into codex items, simply put these are pointless items that most folks just stumbled upon while leveling. Most won't even consider going back and getting all of these, there's no point. Google them and you can read them all any way.

 

Personally I will continue to sub simply because I have gotten older and have taken a REALLY casual approach to SWtOR. It is exactly what I was looking for when I purchased it. That being said, I really can feel for those that are looking for a challenge/grind. They flew through leveling not because they were rushing to 50 but because there was no challenge along the way. Hell people don't even have to worry about getting level appropriate gear simply because they know that on the next planet they will basically replace or upgrade it all. Then they hit 50 in anticipation of running some raids and getting on to the harder content. When they start in on the HMs/Ops they come to realize they can fly through these as well.

 

What it all boils down to is that there has to be a "epeen" value to any mmo. The people who put in the time to accomplish things in any game want to be able to show off said items and not have every player be able to accomplish the same thing 2 weeks after they hit 50. This is a VERY casual game and will be great for casual players as long as they continue to add content as fast as they are. As for the true power gamers out there, I feel for you. I really do. But considering that it is 3 months in and ALL content has been beaten does not bode well for this MMO holding your interest .

 

So for all of you casual players out there, take some time and consider what these people are saying and stop with the "well quit" statements. Simply put you should not be able to conquer all of the content in 3 months on any MMO. And for all of you powergamers, accept the fact that this game is perfect for casual players and will probably never change. BW has chosen their audience and it is not the hard core MMO players. Unfortunately they made a massive error in this area because casual players will always stayed sub'd because they always have something to do, you all on the other hand have already started looking for the next challenge. What is truly sad about this is that it is such an easy fix.

 

/End wall of text

 

I agree due to the fact that I've always enjoyed grinding for something that is difficult/time consuming to attain, hence having completed 8 class storys, 8 level 50 chars and legacy level 50. I would like more grind, remove the legacy xp cap, add more character slots, add reputations to gain, something, anything.

Edited March 29, 2012 by System_TOR

[cbowsin]

Every game has a reasonable amount of grind. Whether it be in Dragon Age: Origins, killing waves of darkspawn to get from point A to point B, in DoTA where you kill the same creeps over and over again, or in Diablo the game with the biggest grind.

 

Grind keeps people playing for longer. It is needed to give hardcore players a reason to keep playing, and thus ensure the success of this game.

 

Never played DoTA or Diablo, but I put in at least 170 hours in DA:O and in my perspective that game has no 'grind'. If you go back to my post to look at the definition of the word, it is actually a matter of perspective, because what one person finds dull another person could find fun. I enjoyed killing wave after wave of darkspawns and was entertained by it and I'm sure others would see it as a chore.

 

So the first problem with this thread is that the 'hardcore' intentionally want boring content because they know they will do it for the sole reason that the majority will not. If that were not the case then they wouldn't be asking for 'grind' they would have said, 'very long repetitive timesink content is what I find fun, please add some' but that is not asked because they know what they want is not fun.

 

Secondly, since when did the so called 'hardcore' hold any factor on the financial impact of a mmorpg more than those who are not? Link sources and 'facts' please.

[DorkTrooper]

What it all boils down to is that there has to be a "epeen" value to any mmo.

 

This is not true for all players.

 

I don't care if Random Guy standing next to me in fleet is a newb with nothing but his skivvies and fights with fisticuffs, or is a maxed out 50 with top gear and a discontinued 1.5 mil speeder sedan. As long as I'm having fun in game, other peoples' stuff (or "accomplishments") matter not.

 

What you mean is any mmo has to have an epeen value to satisfy you.

 

I would be surprised if BW does not add more ways of showing off your gaming prowess, with battle stats/pvp rank listings or something along those lines--probably within this first year. It's one of those things that isn't essential to basic gameplay for launch, but not that difficult to implement in an update.

[V-Serp]

Seems pretty grindy to me. If you are used to single player rpgs, action games, RTS, FPS or fighting games you're going to consider this a grind. If you are comparing this to MMOs then I understand why this isn't considered a grind.

[PiffyEQ]

I agree that the leveling is WAY too fast. I don't mind grinding to a point, but what I miss the most from games like EQ is the sense of accomplishment you would have by taking down a hard boss and figuring out the strategy to succeed in a raid which would allow you to be able to progress further due to your/your guild's accomplishments.

I miss the exploration and danger aspect of exploring some dungeon, in SWTOR there really doesn't seem to be any aspect of this. I'm not saying I loved finding a group and sitting at some named spot in a dungeon with a group and grinding it out, but it did encourage you to actually group and socialize with people, whereas in SWTOR it feels so disconnected. I'm not very good at explaining myself ! I guess I just always tend to compare MMO's to my experience with EQ1, so far none have really given me that same sense of satisfaction/excitement.

I do however love the storylines in SWTOR & the voice overs!

 

P.S.

Please forgive horrible grammar, I have bad insomnia and feel like a zombie atm

[Kaphik]

What a grind? Do your dailies.

[Gerandar]

SWTOR has a grind, you have to grind to battlemaster you have to grind FP and ops for gear you have to grind dailies for money and so forth. this game has the grind its just not a as fun as other MMO's grind it seems.

[trevah]

I'm reading none of this and stating only one thing: I love that this game has no grind, and it is the one reason I've felt compelled to continue playing.

 

I love pvp and hit 50 and realized that I have to grind ~6-8hours for ONE piece of equipment. I immediately rolled an alt because the idea of me spending an entire work day to receive a *********** chestpiece disgusts me. The equivalent of $250 for a piece of equip? Ugh. I am playing for the experience, and if I have to grind 50 hours in order to enjoy lvl50pvp then you can say goodbye to my sub. Just because it is what YOU (op) are used to in all previous mmos, I can tell you that for the first time in mmo history I am actually enjoying myself. Up until 50 anyways. Luckily there's 7 other class stories I can go through.

 

So shutup and dont ruin this game for me. Thanks.

[mcburly]

i dont even....

 

what?.....

 

you...want ....grind???

 

I...

 

what???

[chrisftw]

So...No grind is a bad thing now:rolleyes:

 

then of course if there is a grind. then it becomes a bad thing and this OP will scream for less grind.

 

the rule of thumb is

 

Grind = Bad

No Grind = Bad

 

where does that leave us?

[_Jokerz_]

Lol, I'm sorry but wait... you WANT more grind?

 

I can't stand it, not after plying Aion to 55... you want to a grinding game thats all about killing repetitive mobs over and over and over and over and over.. oh wait, Ding!, and over and over... haha, nty.

 

TOR has it's issues, the game is still young and was rushed by the ******es at EA to a pre-mature launch, Grinding is not one of them lol

[CrunkShizzle]

Lol, I'm sorry but wait... you WANT more grind?

 

this game has a grind?

 

and yes,i do want more grind.i dont play mmorpgs to acomplish everything i needed to do in a hour then log off cuz theres nothing to do

Edited March 29, 2012 by CrunkShizzle

[Ansultares]

SWTOR has grinds and time sinks like any MMO; it's just that instead of being interesting ones, they're totally disinteresting (like social points or the orbital stations).

 

Funny, how that worked out.

 

you want to a grinding game thats all about killing repetitive mobs over and over and over and over and over..

No. Edited March 29, 2012 by Ansultares

[Marlaine]

So...No grind is a bad thing now:rolleyes:

 

It never was a bad thing. The people against the grind don't understand that the grind IS the mmo.

 

I'm in agreement with most of the OP's points. The leveling process is entirely too fast in this game, and slowing it down would increase longevity of the game not to mention give a crucial shot of adrenaline to crafting.

 

What I don't agree with are his views on raiding, but that's because I just don't find raiding enjoyable. I'd rather focus on dungeons (5, 10, 15-man), meaningful pvp, and crafting for end-game. Catering to raiding is catering to a pretty extreme minority.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Marlaine

[Ansultares]

It never was a bad thing. The people against the grind don't understand that the grind IS the mmo.

To be fair there's Western grind, and than there's Korean grind; obviously a highly exaggerated Korean grind is what uber-casuals will claim you demand when you say you want "(some) more grind."

[shaggscoob]

Wow... there are no words... You WANT a grind? When I saw the title, I thought you were praising the game, but you weren't...

 

If you want a grind, go download the SWG Emulator. There was enough grinding in that game to last me a lifetime.

 

Anyone that wants to spend so much time playing this game needs to reevaluate their lifestyle.

[CrunkShizzle]

Anyone that wants to spend so much time playing this game needs to reevaluate their lifestyle.

 

some people arent casuals so they play longer then a couple hours a day

 

 

this game doesnt really seem to have anything there in terms of timesinks for non casuals.but meh,i might of already put this but im giving the game til max level,and seeing what is there before i make any decisons but thats just kinda what ive expieranced so far

 

the timesinks ive expierenced just didnt really seem very time sinkish.which is why i think this game probably shouldnt of been focused for just casuals

Edited March 29, 2012 by CrunkShizzle

[Marlaine]

Wow... there are no words... You WANT a grind? When I saw the title, I thought you were praising the game, but you weren't...

 

If you want a grind, go download the SWG Emulator. There was enough grinding in that game to last me a lifetime.

 

Anyone that wants to spend so much time playing this game needs to reevaluate their lifestyle.

 

MMOs are big games that are supposed to last years, not a few months. There's no possible way to create continuous content, so repeatable and "grindy" content is vital to the long-term health of the game.

 

In addition, when you have spent a few months working on something and you've finally achieved it; not only do you feel a much greater sense of satisfaction, you have a very real advantage that will take other players a long time to catch up to.

 

When everyone is max level everything after a few months, your mmo has failed.

[shaggscoob]

some people arent casuals,so they play longer then a couple hours a day

 

and maybe i already put this,but whatever.this game doesnt really seem to appeal to anyone other then casuals

 

A couple hours a day is quite a lot, in my opinion. People need to do more with their time than just play a game.

[Andryah]

If you really want a grind OP, all you have to do is grind mobs to 50. You only actually need to do the story line quests on each planet, which will give you about 15-20% of your total xp. The rest you can go out and do old school..... like in the old days of setting up a camp and pulling mobs to you for days on end.

 

So, you have the option available to you. It's just that most of the player base has put old school leveling behind them, so we are not going to agree with you.

 

I will however wish you a fond journey, having pointed out to you that the game does give you the option if you wish to avail yourself of it.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Andryah

[Andryah]

MMOs are big games that are supposed to last years, not a few months. There's no possible way to create continuous content, so repeatable and "grindy" content is vital to the long-term health of the game.

 

In addition, when you have spent a few months working on something and you've finally achieved it; not only do you feel a much greater sense of satisfaction, you have a very real advantage that will take other players a long time to catch up to.

 

When everyone is max level everything after a few months, your mmo has failed.

 

There are a lot of things to do in this game as you level up and at end game. If you only define it as old schools grind (which you could do if you want to) or end game raiding, then that's on you for being narrowly selective in what parts of the game you wish to play.

 

MMOs are designed for the center of the bell curve of players. So are content updates. The top and bottom extremes are never happy.

[shaggscoob]

 

When everyone is max level everything after a few months, your mmo has failed.

 

I would argue that this isn't true.

 

From a business standpoint, casuals who play 5-10 hours per week pay the bills. The few unhealthy people who play 20+ hours per week are the ones who get jaded and come complain on the forums. Occasionally you'll get a great fan who comes and writes guides, helps lowbies, etc., but it's not worth the 20 other people who whine.

 

Hardcore players are not good for a game, really. At least not the majority of them.

 

If they can keep the casuals happy by releasing content on a reasonable schedule that is accessible, but not too easy (as I think most casuals would agree this game has done, it's easy but not TOO easy), then Bioware wins.

 

Hardcores don't pay the bills. They might make the game drag out, but if you're not making money in that drag out period, what's the point?

[Akash]

I would argue that this isn't true.

 

From a business standpoint, casuals who play 5-10 hours per week pay the bills. The few unhealthy people who play 20+ hours per week are the ones who get jaded and come complain on the forums. Occasionally you'll get a great fan who comes and writes guides, helps lowbies, etc., but it's not worth the 20 other people who whine.

 

Hardcore players are not good for a game, really. At least not the majority of them.

 

If they can keep the casuals happy by releasing content on a reasonable schedule that is accessible, but not too easy (as I think most casuals would agree this game has done, it's easy but not TOO easy), then Bioware wins.

 

Hardcores don't pay the bills. They might make the game drag out, but if you're not making money in that drag out period, what's the point?

 

And just what factual data do you base that garbage post on?

[shaggscoob]

And just what factual data do you base that garbage post on?

 

Thank you for calling my post garbage, care to make any arguments?