When can we expect to see a nerf of the Hybrid Sin/Shadow?

[KhealThar]

Yeah, right.

 

As republic, I see an average of 5 Inquisitors every warzone. Usually 3-4 of those are Tanksins. The only thing rare is actually seeing an Assassin spec'd DPS (i mean why would you when you're averaging 300-400k dmg a warzone in tank stance, pulling people into fires while running around with god mode cooldowns).

 

Shadows are all over the place in RvR huttball. There isn't a single class I see more of, though plenty of fresh 50 Sents are pouring in every day.

 

Haha, I'd like to see a screenshot, I've yet to have a game with more than 2 tanksins and this is including empire vs empire huttball matches.

 

 

This isn't football.

 

But Shadow/SIn tanks putting up 400-600k every competitive voidstar/alderaan is certainly the farthest thing from an aberration. More like a certainty, at least the with people that I play with, against.

 

Of course this doesn't factor in the baddies.

 

 

 

Suuuuuuure, you did. That's what all the FOTM re-rolls say.

 

Uh, Do you not know the difference between AoE damage and single target? Most DPS classes are centered around single target damage, which is going to be significantly lower on the scoreboards than a tank spec with lots of aoe.

 

The AOE damage doesn't do much when the single target dpser is putting out 6k burst compared to the Shadow doing 6k damage across 3 targets.

 

It looks like a lot but it really doesn't do much.

Edited April 3, 2012 by KhealThar

[Kaisernick]

Try playing sniper someday, then you will learn to run from everything.

 

i find as a sniper i can kill anything except consulars and sorc there healing and shields are a pain in the ***.

 

thougth nerfing them would be bad i just think snipers (and gunslingers i guess, havent played one in pvp yet) need a ability to deal with them.

[broganthomas]

Why would BW nerf shadow? With the nerf of commando, they need a class that everyone can play. If you make that class have a lightsaber... PROFIT. Five million subs easy.

 

I can only assume that is what BW sales and marketing said.

 

Bounty hunters are still the easiest to play... what are you talking about?

[Neamhan]

The only time a long duration mitigation CD even comes into consideration is if you're say running the Huttball from midfield to endzone, except neither Jugg nor PT would do this because they have Charge. The few rare times I caught them actually running the ball, they get focused fired by 6 guys and die immediately too like anyone else.

 

This is a PvP forum not a PvE forum. You don't pop your long duration CD at 100% because you have absolutely no way of knowing the enemy's going to really focus fire on you except for the Huttball situation. Short of developing sixth sense you usually will use your defensive CDs at around ~50% range since that's the only time you can be certain people will focus on you. At this point 100% chance to stop all the dangerous attacks for 5 seconds is far better than a bit more mitigation and 30-40% mitigation for 10 seconds, because you usually won't even live past the next 5 seconds if you're really focus fired. This is why Marauders CDs are strong, as both of them can at least guaranteed they'll still be alive after it ran out no matter how much of a mess they get into. You see people complain about Force Shroud, Force Camo, or Undying Rage, but you sure don't see people complain about Invinicible or Energy Shield. Why? Because you can kill someone through the latter but it's practically impossible to kill someone from the first set of 3 abilities.

 

Who are you arguing against? I would help if you included a quote since I don't recall anyone saying Invincible or Energy Shield was better than Force Shroud or Undying Rage. At the same time, that doesn't mean one should just dismiss an Invincible or Energy Shield because every bit of DR helps. Especially when you're making that last push to the end zone in Huttball, it can mean the difference between scoring or not.

 

By the way, what kind of awesome teammates do people play with that the moment they die, they instantly run halfway across the battlefield to buff you again, because I'd like to have some of those guys on my side. After I die once (and believe it or not, even Darkness Assassins die), the only buffs I get is from whoever happened to be behind the respawn shield at that time.

 

Surely you aren't suggesting that balance decisions be made without taking all four group buffs into account? You should get into the habit of throwing out your buff anytime there's downtime. I do.

[matekwong]

Thx to these exaggerated posts pre 50 Shadows on my server are increasing and thanks to that we are losing 7/10 of the WZs.

 

Nice strategy.

[Neamhan]

Because having high shield stat works wonders in PvP amirite?

 

Shield and Defense work on the same attacks and are bypassed by the same attacks. You can't bring one up and then ignore the other.

[Neamhan]

This isn't football.

 

But Shadow/SIn tanks putting up 400-600k every competitive voidstar/alderaan is certainly the farthest thing from an aberration. More like a certainty, at least the with people that I play with, against.

 

Of course this doesn't factor in the baddies.

 

How can you possibly expect anyone to take you seriously when you make outlandish statements like that. Again, prove that Assassins are putting up 400k+ in every competitive voidstar/alderaan. I mean, I could post one screenshot of a Guardian putting up over 900k damage and make the same asinine statement, but that wouldn't make it true.

 

Suuuuuuure, you did. That's what all the FOTM re-rolls say.

 

Sure did, Mr. Won't-Say-What-Class-He-Plays.

 

Edit: I see. From your posting history you're just a butt-hurt hybrid Guardian. Sorry pal, Assassin hybrids were nerfed into non-existence 2 months ago, now it's everybody else's turn. Play full spec Defense, there's some nice buffs there and you have a ton of utility. Then man up and stop crying.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Neamhan

[Neamhan]

Sorry, nope. Legacy is legacy, not class balance. Fact is with buffs are not, Shadow/Sins have the inherent advantage. Along with all their other advantages over every class/spec. So another overpowered aspect out.

 

So yes, talking about legacy rewards when everyone is talking about imbalances between actual classes has no place in the discussion.

 

Assassins only have an inherent advantage in that one scenario where all damage is internal/elemental. The reality is there's more damage that's kinetic/energy, so Assassins fall behind both Juggernauts and Powertechs due to their greater overall DR.

 

And the fact that you think all buffs shouldn't be included in balance discussions, whether from legacy or teammates, just goes to show how much you don't understand how to balance classes. I assure you that Bioware balances classes with the assumption that all classes have all four buffs.

[HiTMaNSZ]

If you guys want to see a monster assassin check these screen shots out. http://szapas.imgur.com/all/

[Neamhan]

Seen them already. Unless those are the only WZs he's ever done, it's safe to assume those are the best scores he's ever made and his average is much less. Can't wait to see what the combat logs say about the various classes.

[sheerhatred]

As someone who's PvPed with enough 50s to know better: both operatives and marauders have the tools to kill assassins in 1vs1s.

 

No your just a damn fool. Seriously is this your first mmo because it sure as hell sounds like it.

Edited April 3, 2012 by sheerhatred

[Astarica]

Honestly the screenshots are the least powerful part of an Assassin. There's at least 2 classes that can solidly put higher numbers in DPS for the sake of doing DPS. Even in a serious game you're likely to see something like Mara/Merc do 350K while you do 300/60/100. People are a bit too obsessed with big numbers. Usually if you play an Assassin right you should be doing objective stuff since you excel at every kind of objectives, which gives you relatively little chance to put up good numbers. A lone defender or turret assaulter, not to mention the Huttball carrier, isn't going to rack up impressive numbers compared to the guy who is always fighting a big pack of enemies. The fact that Assassins put up even good numbers is a symptom of how powerful they are overall, but the numbers themselves is not what is overpowered about this class.

 

Survival means very little except for the Huttball carrier, who relies on mobility to survive in the first place. Someone with 50% mitigation is easily recognizable by the fact that he has 20Kish HP (it'd make no sense to do tank stance wearing DPS gear for other classes since the DPS you do would be negligible, you might as well go tanking all the way). Nobody focus fires on a person with 20K if they know how this game works because the fact you have 20K HP implies you're wearing tank gear so you're not a threat, even for Assassins. So while there might be some scenarios the other two tanks are harder to kill, for the most part their survival is actually infinitely higher than an Assassin because they're not enough of a threat for people to attack them.

 

Now I guess someone can try to do something tricky like wearing DPS gear in tank spec, but as far as I know the DPS output you do is pretty much nonexistent if you're a PT/Jugg trying to pull this off, so the only way this strat can work is if you fool someone into attacking you first, and even then, it doesn't seem like having a person who is basically nothing (can't really tank or DPS) as a decoy to lure someone into attacking them is at all a workable strategy. You might as well get another Deception Assassin. At least they can do DPS if they somehow survived, and they certainly work well as decoy.

[Andar]

So I read these threads all the time and it seems the majority of people whining and crying are either uneducated, unskilled, or inexperienced with game mechanics and resolve bar management. Granted there are a few with valid points/concerns over certain issues so I'm not knocking everybody here don't worry. But I would like to weigh in on the conversation and while some of this has certainly been said before some of it may be new to you. I myself rarely consider much OP and instead think of ways to counter classes current strengths (subject to change depending on current patch).

With that being said I would like you to consider when reading my statements that it's never about how many buttons you have to press or what does crazy damage and what doesn't, it's about WHEN you press those buttons and WHERE you choose to position yourself according to whats happening around you. ( situational awareness I KNOW crazy) Proper play, knowing ALL classes, and teamwork overcome a lot of what people consider overpowered. In a PUG setting this is obviously not always something you can rely on.

 

*Tanksin's are considered op because of the amount of utility they have when running the ball in Huttball ( shroud , speed , knock back, stun) and because they put up decent damage on the scoreboard ( mostly due to aoe damage and the fact they are hard to kill ie. more time alive=more dps ). If anything damage reduction from shielding should be tweaked. Other than that, its a niche spec that can be countered by proper play/teamwork. I personally ignore tanks until last and just control them or isolate them from their healers significantly reducing their effectiveness ( guard 15m range). Again proper play/teamwork.

 

*Hybrid Sin's : Internal damage burst ( 15s cd 50 force , 25 force talented ) Self-healing, increased defenses. Its a pretty solid build TBH you gain sustainability/control/burst. But, you still aren't going to 2 shot anybody and it certainly requires a little more brain power than pure tank. My real problem with both hybrid and pure tanksin's is that between shielding and self-healing it promotes bad play in that you aren't punished sorely for making a mistake. But let's be honest here, no hybrid sin , given equivalent gear/skill is topping damage versus other dps (overall). Again I feel like a lot of the problem here is maybe some people just don't know how to counter them or are playing a class that sins counter. It's an MMO its never gonna be perfect at any single point, if you're a gamer you know when you have a class system there will always be issues with balance.

 

*Deception : This is and always will be my preferred spec, it is geared towards controlling and DPSing a SINGLE target. Overall I think in its current state its a pretty balanced spec. You won't be topping damage charts necessarily with the amount of AOE that goes around from other classes. But you should realize your job is to kill/control healers and ball carriers. Good burst/stealth utility ( the ability to get in and out of combat quickly ) are your tools. My only concern is mobility at times, while speed and shroud offer A LOT , with certain map layouts ( Huttball ) a newer player unfamiliar with positioning can be compromised and without a REAL GAP CLOSER, other classes can potentially outshine you here. But for the most part well balanced given equivalent skill/gear, I don't have problems with any class 1v1 really ( yes I know not a 1v1 game ).

 

P.S Hybrid and Darkness Specs gain little to nothing from Stealth, being as they aren't talented into improved stealth you can pull them easily enough. Also healing reduction from "Cloak" pretty much makes it useless being that you can use spike out of stealth anyways.

 

Nothing crazy or game changing in here, just my two cents.

 

And just for general knowledge purposes since I'm sure it will be asked:

 

Tragik - 50 Sin Deception 2/31/8

The Crucible Pits - West Coast PvP

Server 4th Empire 50

Server 5th Battlemaster ( pre-Ilum/valor bug)

I also have and play a 50 sorc ( hybrid ) 43 Jugg ( vengeance )

Guild: Back-Peddlers

 

Yes I've tried almost every spec you can think of, yes I have optimal gear and stats for every spec, yes i remod out of accuracy because its awful.

 

Most level headed post out of 100+ pages.

 

/shake OPs hand

 

You, sir, are a genius and a scholar

[fungihoujo]

They'll nerf sins soon- once they realize they're comparable to marauders, which I'm sure they will when the devs realize the marauders they're all playing aren't getting EZ wins against that one class.

 

And when they look at the scoreboards and see that class is a sith inquisitor with 300k damage and 50k protection, they'll nerf sorcs for being so damn OP.

[Astarica]

I noticed people bring up the fact that Darkness is very hard to kill as if there is a counter to 'not dying'. Maybe every other spec should activate their similar 'not dying' mode to counter it? Or is there some kind of 'kill the hardest guy to kill' mode that neutralizes Darkness?

 

I guess people have this illusion that in a 'high level game' or whatever that actually means, your random instant gib guys like Deception Assassins are guarded by someone and no one ever dies. It's usually the opposite. Any good team is likely heavy on DPS (you only need at most 2 healers) and great DPS trumps great healing in this game because there is no counter to interrupts. If a DPS can interrupt all of a healer's heals (and good ones can) that's it for the healer. In such a fight even the normally hard to kill guys die quickly so if someone's going to get healed/guarded, it's going to be the Marauder/Darkness themselves.

 

A good team isn't going to be able to cover for your weakness if the enemy team is also good. In fact weak defense characters get exploited against tough teams because that's where the weak link is, so expect to die even more often than the usual PUG against a good team, even if your own team is good.

[Haeso]

It's a fact. Plenty of data has been posted on the matter. Just because you're too lazy to find it doesn't make it an opinion.

 

Tanksins put out DPS numbers that pure dps classes can even rarely reach. Tanksins out dmg tank Guardians by a factor 4-5 in any given warzone depending on how geared they are.. all while having the most utility of any class, better defensive cooldowns/surivability than any other tank class and a ridiculous self heal.

 

They put out DAMAGE not DPS numbers. They have a significantly higher uptime due to being a tank leading to inflated aoe damage. Their burst is exceedingly weak compared to a proper DPS class.

[voigt]

This isn't football.

 

But Shadow/SIn tanks putting up 400-600k every competitive voidstar/alderaan is certainly the farthest thing from an aberration. More like a certainty, at least the with people that I play with, against.

 

Of course this doesn't factor in the baddies.

 

 

 

Suuuuuuure, you did. That's what all the FOTM re-rolls say.

 

I call some BS here, I have full Battlemaster Tankassin, with ****** enhancements replaced with crit/surge. I don't pull anywhere close to those numbers. In fact I am sorta jealous of operatives getting 5300 highest hits while my best is about 2700. I tend to have about 50-60% of the total damage of a real dps class.

 

If they buffed assassin survivability in the other two stances (cloth sucks) id likely play deception.

[Astarica]

I call some BS here, I have full Battlemaster Tankassin, with ****** enhancements replaced with crit/surge. I don't pull anywhere close to those numbers. In fact I am sorta jealous of operatives getting 5300 highest hits while my best is about 2700. I tend to have about 50-60% of the total damage of a real dps class.

 

If they buffed assassin survivability in the other two stances (cloth sucks) id likely play deception.

 

Assassinate can hit close to 5K without even trying to set up anything special, but hits that killed the enemy do not count as 'highest damage' so it'll rarely show up in the highest hit.

[voigt]

Assassinate can hit close to 5K without even trying to set up anything special, but hits that killed the enemy do not count as 'highest damage' so it'll rarely show up in the highest hit.

 

I am not sure 5k is near 'avg' more like if you pop a relic/adrenal/recklessness before doing it. I usually see 3300-3600 Assassinate (for those that don't know its only usable if the target is under 30% life) but like you said, it doesn't count over-damage so if they only had 2500 left the 3600 only counts as 2500.

 

Its also a weapon attack so it can be mitigated/deflected/shielded so if you do get a 5k crit its likely on an unbubbled sorc and they dont have 18k total hp anyway so under 30% is less than 5k always.

Edited April 3, 2012 by voigt

[Astarica]

I am not sure 5k is near 'avg' more like if you pop a relic/adrenal/recklessness before doing it. I usually see 3300-3600 Assassinate (for those that don't know its only usable if the target is under 30% life) but like you said, it doesn't count over-damage so if they only had 2500 left the 3600 only counts as 2500.

 

Its also a weapon attack so it can be mitigated/deflected/shielded so if you do get a 5k crit its likely on an unbubbled sorc and they dont have 18k total hp anyway so under 30% is less than 5k always.

 

WZ adrenal/buff will take you to near 5K rather easily against a light armor class. Not that there's much point to do that because they won't survive a hit from Assassinate anyway.

[DarthMaulUK]

Those claiming that Sins can deal 600k damage per voidstar/any pvp match is clearly talking out of their backside. Video/Screens or it didnt happen

[Redmarx]

Those claiming that Sins can deal 600k damage per voidstar/any pvp match is clearly talking out of their backside. Video/Screens or it didnt happen

 

There are screenshots of it only a few posts back.

 

Stop trying to discount the avalanche of actual data proving assassins are FOTM easymode.

 

Force shroud removed because it is far too strong (prevents CC, prevents more damage, lasts nearly twice as long) compared to the operative defensive cooldown, deflection is about the same.

 

Force pull removed because why should assassins have or need 2 gap closers when other melee have none. Force speed is enough, the talent to make force speed remove roots needs to go as well.

 

Urgent nerfs needed:

 

- Dark charge reduces all damage done by 50%, increases threat by 100%

- Force shroud removed, dot removal moved to Deflection

- Force pull removed

- Disjunction talent removed

 

Then assassins will be balanced with operatives and juggs in their respective specs.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Redmarx

[Magnesium]

Urgent nerfs needed:

- Dark charge reduces all damage done by 50%, increases threat by 100%

- Force shroud removed, dot removal moved to Deflection

- Force pull removed

 

I had to double check that this wasn't posted on 1st April, because it certainly should have been.

 

The only thing "urgent" is the requirement to help the Infiltration Tree.

[HyperThomas]

There are screenshots of it only a few posts back.

 

Stop trying to discount the avalanche of actual data proving assassins are FOTM easymode.

 

Urgent nerfs needed:

 

- Dark charge reduces all damage done by 50%, increases threat by 100%

- Force shroud removed, dot removal moved to Deflection

- Force pull removed

 

Then assassins will be balanced with operatives and juggs in their respective specs.

 

Force shroud removed... LOL!

Why should a tank spec be balanced with a operative anyway? Do you have no idea

about MMOs? Do you even know what tanks means? Do you know what a burst class is? I would be surprised if you did.

 

Other than that the damage reduction while in tank stance is a good idea, although 50% is waaaaaay too much. Force pull removed? Not gonna happen. Force shroud removed? Great make the Infiltration Shadow even more weak, that will fix things wont it? Or is this just to make you feel better about your rightfully nerfed to the ground class?

Who ever said that buffing operatives in utility isn't a good idea? I think it is a damned good idea, to bring them up to group pvp standards, as well as infiltration shadows getting a defense boost to improve their group role viability.

 

No main ability has ever been removed in a nerf. Stop kidding yourself, your nerf calls are way too much.

 

That is all, and BTW everyone is tired of you copy/pasting your worthless nerf ideas with no justification posted with them at all. So just stop. OR be constructive and give us some reasons.

[Redmarx]

The reasons are simple.

 

Operatives, sorcs, and mercs are going to be heavily nerfed in 1.2 - and unless you're on PTS protesting those changes, you're not really pushing to change that.

 

Given those nerfs, assassins are already stronger and thus need to be heavily rebalanced, with exactly the nerfs I propose.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Redmarx