Why the proposed 1.2 Pyrotech changes are poorly thought out

[busterbone]

The "tacky" becomes apparent after noting that while two children are complaining about having some of their cupcakes removed from their possession, one had it reduced from 3 to 2, while the other had it reduced from 9 to 6.

 

Alright I can put it into food terms

 

First of all, one child (the Mercenary child) is not really getting their cupcakes reduced because 3 is already the lowest it can go, so they are going from 3 cupcakes --> 3 cupcakes.

 

Over the course of a full day (a full warzone), the Mercenary child is apparently still getting 600k calories (damage done) even though he gets less cupcakes, because cupcakes aren't his main food source. Most of what the Mercenary child eats is actually cake, ice cream, and brownies so even if his share of cupcakes was reduced (which it isn't) it wouldn't affect him very much.

 

For Powertech child on the other hand, cupcakes is his main food source. Yes, he gets cake, ice cream, and brownies too, but most of his calories come from cupcakes, not these other food sources (compared to the Mercenary child). So you see, when both children get their number of cupcakes reduced (except as shown above the Mercenary child isn't really losing any cupcakes), it affects the Powertech child more because cupcakes made up a lot of his total calorie intake.

 

In summation, different classes are different. Yes, we Powertechs currently get more Rail Shots than Mercenaries. That's just how it's balanced. You seem to do quite fine without as many Rail Shots however (you even say you deal 600k damage a warzone).

 

Let me try flip the situation, maybe it will make more sense:

Let's say they nerfed Unload/Full Auto, and doubled the cooldown. Obviously you use Unload more than I do (the only time I would ever use it is if I'm rooted and have nothing else to use while someone is 30m away. Therefore, you are more affected by the nerf. But what if I came to you said "why are you complaining about the nerf? Your Unload already procs PPA, ours doesn't even do that. Stop complaining about Unload getting nerfed, because our Unload is even worse than your Unload." It doesn't make sense, because obviously you are being hit harder by the Unload nerf than I am.

 

Now do you see how you sound to us?

[Jarfunkz]

So innacurate. So PT pyro burst, only burst in game that deals SAME burst no matter of armor of target (elemental dmg + 90% ARP on rail shot), is B+? Then for the love of God, who has grade A burst in this game? As is well known Pt pyro (and assault vanguard) have highest burst in game.

 

If you troll me with infil shadow or deception sin, I will not even bother replying.

 

You assume that the 60 and the 30% are combined... I would really need to see a combat log to verify that. I only say that because I have two common damage on railshot, a 3800 damage and a 4500 damage... I personally think (because of no combat log) that there isa 30% roll and a 60% roll that are completely separate.

 

Make sure you read this next part, because it too supports my theory. If there is a 90% decrease in damage, why on earth do heavy/medium armored players do significantly less damage than a clothy? I would say on average, about 30% less damage. if there was a 90% damage decrease, on 20% armor vs 10% would yield a 2.2% damage reduction on the 20% vs a 1.1% on the 10%. A whole 1.1% difference in damage, but it isn't even close to that.

 

Also, you seem to not mention that it is a ranged attack, not a tech attack... so it is subject to missing.

 

No doubt, when the stars and the moon aligns, they would definitely be an A in burst damage. Unfortunately, that isn't anywhere near what actually happens. Looks like it is a well known fact you don't know much about this game.

[hoyasaxa]

Alright I can put it into food terms

 

First of all, one child (the Mercenary child) is not really getting their cupcakes reduced because 3 is already the lowest it can go, so they are going from 3 cupcakes --> 3 cupcakes.

 

Over the course of a full day (a full warzone), the Mercenary child is apparently still getting 600k calories (damage done) even though he gets less cupcakes, because cupcakes aren't his main food source. Most of what the Mercenary child eats is actually cake, ice cream, and brownies so even if his share of cupcakes was reduced (which it isn't) it wouldn't affect him very much.

 

For Powertech child on the other hand, cupcakes is his main food source. Yes, he gets cake, ice cream, and brownies too, but most of his calories come from cupcakes, not these other food sources (compared to the Mercenary child). So you see, when both children get their number of cupcakes reduced (except as shown above the Mercenary child isn't really losing any cupcakes), it affects the Powertech child more because cupcakes made up a lot of his total calorie intake.

 

In summation, different classes are different. Yes, we Powertechs currently get more Rail Shots than Mercenaries. That's just how it's balanced. You seem to do quite fine without as many Rail Shots however (you even say you deal 600k damage a warzone).

 

Let me try flip the situation, maybe it will make more sense:

Let's say they nerfed Unload/Full Auto, and doubled the cooldown. Obviously you use Unload more than I do (the only time I would ever use it is if I'm rooted and have nothing else to use while someone is 30m away. Therefore, you are more affected by the nerf. But what if I came to you said "why are you complaining about the nerf? Your Unload already procs PPA, ours doesn't even do that. Stop complaining about Unload getting nerfed, because our Unload is even worse than your Unload." It doesn't make sense, because obviously you are being hit harder by the Unload nerf than I am.

 

Now do you see how you sound to us?

You, sir, owe me a new keyboard. This one has orange juice in it.

[Kaarsa]

I will let myself repost my thoughts from PT forum about the change:

 

I have been thinking about all this problem quite a lot, reading most of topics about that on forums and 1 thing is bothering me. Let me use diagram from http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=370674:

 

 

--- --- --- --- --- ---

FB RS FB FB FB RS

 

So, at the moment, on average, you will be rail shotting every 6 seconds. (from the start of the first RS to the start of the second)

 

1.2: Average proccing (2 FB required on average)

 

!--- --- --- --- --- !--- ---

FB_RS_X_X_FB_FB_RS

 

 

As you can see, now we get to rail on average every 6 seconds, but 1.2 we will be averaging 7.5 seconds.

 

 

 

So, according to the above, current theoretical rotation is 3xFB, RS.

 

This is 4 GCD, 6 seconds. Heat regen is 5/sec. Overall cost of above skills is 16x3 = 48 (RS is free). You regen 30 heat in this time +8 heat vented by RS. At the and of those 6 seconds you are at 10 heat.

 

Another rotation and you are at 20 heat at the end.During next rotation you will overheat.

 

Conclusion:

 

3xFB + RS is not sustainable. Throwing in RP is helping, but we have to remember that current proc rate on FB is 30%, not 33,33%, so average proc will be not exactly after 3 FB.

 

Anyway, to achieve completly sustainable roation, you have to throw rapid shots into every cycle. This way every rotation will leave you at +2,5 heat, this will be negated by higher chance of RP to proc PPA and you can (on average) do this without end.

 

Drawback? Using rapid shots you are now "wasting" chance for PPA to proc.

 

In 1.2 you will proc PPA on average every 7,5 sec. So you can do FB, rapid shots, FB, FB, RS and so on.

 

Difference? You are not "wasting" your chance for PPA.

 

 

 

Another thing. What is your chance to go for 9 seconds without proc now? (9 sec because this is CD of RP, and trying to get a proc by spamming RP+5 FB will leave you overheated, so you really dont want to do that).

 

0,55*0,7*0,7*0,7*0,7*0,7=0,09

 

What are you chances for not getting PPA proc for 9 sec in 1.2? (1RP+3FB, becasue during 2 GCD you cant proc PPA)

 

0,4*0,55*0,55*0,55=0,067

 

 

Overall conclusions:

 

Pyro burst was nerfed. No doubt here. That was a goal of the nerf anyway.

 

Overall DPS is the same, since rotation has not changed (for prolonged fights, where amount of abilities used gives results close to statistical averages).

 

Risk of severe overheating by not getting PPA procs is now lower, and you can time fillers (rapid shots) better, because they will now not waste your chance to proc PPA.

 

PS. In 1.2 TD+IM+RS+RP+RS has 60% chance to happen if you start with RS off cd and is still a nice burst IMO (but ofc not exactly heat efficient. Well, it is burst after all;))

 

PS2. I knew I forgot something - free interrupt is something that will help with heat management too, especially in pvp. It is always 8heat:)

 

 

Please read my post without emotions and if I made any mistakes correct me, I will try to fix my calculations then.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Kaarsa

[Terrorshard]

Cupcakes? Cupcakes!? Where!?!?...don't touch them those are mine I made them!

[Shredbull]

I completely support the OP in this. I don't know on what bases bioware nerfs, but they're stupid and game breaking.

 

They either make FB and RP a 100% chance to proc railshot or lower that 6 sec cooldown to 4.5 sec or less. This way GCD won't affect it that much.

 

Not that I care ALOT. With the 1.2 patch everyone will be running around in full war hero in a matter of weeks, everyone will be bored, and they'll not resubscribe.

 

Bioware will continue to randomly nerf/boost classes to create imbalances to get people to reroll classes just to get resubscribers to resub. It's all a game of money for them.

[Turn-XGundam]

I agree I will definitely miss the Jet Charge / Pyrotech hybrid spec. However this post is aimed specifically at how the 1.2 patch is affecting deep Pyrotech builds.

 

funny thing is we won't be to be semi-tank while dpsing now, while shadow/assassin will still be able to tank and dps.

pretty obvious they want melee to rule over range.

[Jarfunkz]

funny thing is we won't be to be semi-tank while dpsing now, while shadow/assassin will still be able to tank and dps.

pretty obvious they want melee to rule over range.

 

If only powertech was a ranged class...

[Theology]

I will let myself repost my thoughts from PT forum about the change:

 

 

 

 

Please read my post without emotions and if I made any mistakes correct me, I will try to fix my calculations then.

 

I just proved you wrong in the other thread and you attacked me and put words into my mouth, so you come to this thread to do the same thing. GG.

[MartyrLXXVII]

If only powertech was a ranged class...

 

*taunts you all with his unaffected Iron Fist hybrid*

 

Seriously though, I think most people are.blowing this way out of proportion.

[Assaultrooper]

If only powertech was a ranged class...

 

If you notice our post-1.2 rotation it would seem bioware wants us to be a ranged class.... >.>

 

/sigh once again...

[Kaarsa]

I just proved you wrong in the other thread and you attacked me and put words into my mouth, so you come to this thread to do the same thing. GG.

 

Only thing you proved in that thread is that you are a liar and troll. I am finished with you and would like to get a feedback from broader audience.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Kaarsa

[Macroecon]

First of all, one child (the Mercenary child) is not really getting their cupcakes reduced because 3 is already the lowest it can go, so they are going from 3 cupcakes --> 3 cupcakes.

 

Wrong, since DFA is being nerfed.

 

For Powertech child on the other hand, cupcakes is his main food source. Yes, he gets cake, ice cream, and brownies too, but most of his calories come from cupcakes, not these other food sources (compared to the Mercenary child). So you see, when both children get their number of cupcakes reduced (except as shown above the Mercenary child isn't really losing any cupcakes), it affects the Powertech child more because cupcakes made up a lot of his total calorie intake.

 

Each child has the same ability to source calories from DFA, Unload, Rapid Shots, TD and Jet Boost. One child has the ability to source calories from RS much easier than the other. That ability is being reduced while still remaining superior to the ability of the other child.

 

In summation, different classes are different. Yes, we Powertechs currently get more Rail Shots than Mercenaries. That's just how it's balanced. You seem to do quite fine without as many Rail Shots however (you even say you deal 600k damage a warzone).

 

The problem is that it is not balanced. Not to sound egotistical, but my ability to score 600k in a wz is an aberration. There are a select group of players on my server that I consider my peers. Against these players there is no chance that a merc pyro can output as much damage as a sorc, marauder or PT pyro. I've seen a top sorc or marauder do >850k while on my team in the same match that I do 650k. By way of contrast a top PT pyro isn't as distant but it will still output ~15% more than a merc pyro. That is the state of game (im)balance amongst the top players. That is why we all re-rolled as Maras. You (and BW) can contemplate that or ignore it. Doesn't matter since we'll see you all in ranked wz as Maras.

[exphryl]

Wrong, since DFA is being nerfed.

 

 

.

 

I honestly figured it was just going to work properly with 1.2. Never understood why it hit targets far away from the graphic it placed on the ground anyways.

[cashogy]

the change to PPA is being blown WAY out of proportion. everyone has had dry spells where they go the entire 15s cd of rail shot with no proc. this update will help to regulate PPA procs so that they occur more predictably.

 

in my mind, the larger problem is the restricting of the stance. forcing CGC removes hybrid classes, which is disappointing. the hybrid builds (carolina parakeet for example) was not overpowered, but it allowed a powertech a ton of versatility and utility for assisting the group. removing hybrids is pigeon holing players into specific roles. youre either straight tank, or straight dps; there is no middle ground.

 

that is not a good direction to take the game.

 

i do hope that bioware adds something to prevent PPA from proc'ing while rail shot is off cooldown. this can already occur, and while the venting of 8 heat is nice, i would rather save my proc's for when they actually reset rail shot so i can keep putting out good dps.

[exphryl]

 

youre either straight tank, or straight dps; there is no middle ground.

s.

 

Unless you are a Tankasin.

 

No, I'm not saying nerf Tankasins, but wish BW would take a look at that class and how they designed their Tank tree compared to Juggs / PTs.

[Crankyhobo]

Bioware fully realize this already but you are not playing a popular spec/class therefor they balance it accordingly to not frustrate the majority of people playing jedi/sith. The nerf is working as intend and i feel sorry you spent time to explain what BW already know.

 

Its funny, when i played wow at least early on it was apparent that they did the opposite, no matter what feedback was given they would buff the classes which were the least popular in an attempt to balance population. Bio-ware is doing the opposite, just as you describe. Trying not to upset the majority of players at the expense of the minorities.

[BCBull]

just kills what little synergy there is.

[Darth_Eminok]

Very well thought out post. At first I thought for sure us Pyrotechs were getting off light as far as being nerfed is concerned... Now I realize that's not quite the case... Thank you for bringing this to my attention, I hope Bio makes some changes to stop this from being such a negative change.

 

Well in truth, it seems that Bioware is in love with Sorcerers. They're previous fantasy games may have gotten to them.

[masshake]

This post aims to clear up a lot of the misinformation surrounding the proposed 1.2 changes to the Bounty Hunter Pyrotech specialization (and Trooper Assault Specialist). I believe the proposed changes are poorly designed, and in the following paragraphs I will do my best to explain why I have come to this conclusion. I’ve posted this in the PvP forums because the Pyrotech changes are largely due to PvP concerns.

 

Firstly, for non-Pyrotechs, I will describe the abilities these patch notes affect so that you can understand what is going on:

 

Rail Shot:

 

Rail Shot is a Pyrotech’s hardest hitting ability. Through talents Rail Shot ignores 90% of the target’s armor, and through the PvP 4 piece set bonus Rail Shot gains an additional 15% chance to crit. In full PvP gear Rail Shot usually hits for 1.5-2k and crits for 3.5-4k damage. Rail Shot has a 15 second cooldown and costs 16 heat (Bounty Hunters have 100 heat total), but through talents Rail Shot refunds 8 heat, bringing the total cost to 8 heat. Targets must be suffering from periodic damage to be hit by Rail Shot.

 

Prototype Particle Accelerator:

 

PPA is one of the most important talents to a Pyrotech because it can reset the cooldown on Rail Shot as well as make Rail Shot free. Currently Flame Burst (a damage ability that costs 16 heat) has a 30% chance to proc PPA, and Rocket Punch (a melee damage ability that costs 16 heat and has a 9 second cooldown) has a 45% chance to proc PPA. PPA is the main way Pyrotechs vent heat (besides normal regen), because the PPA proc essentially makes Rail shot vent 8 heat instead of costing 8 heat.

 

Pyrotech Rotation:

 

A Pyrotech’s damage rotation consists of using Rail Shot as much as possible, and using Rocket Punch and Flame Burst to fish for more Rail Shot procs through PPA. The other main abilities used are Thermal Detonator (a single target ability on a 15 second cooldown, hits for a little less than Rail Shot) and the auto-attack Rapid Shots (~400 damage).

 

PPA makes for an interesting relationship between a Pyrotech’s damage output and heat management; a relationship that is the inverse of what most other classes have. What I mean is that PPA procs both substantially increases a Pyrotech’s damage output as well as substantially helping heat ventilation. Meaning a Pyrotech either deals high damage and has great heat management, or deals low damage and has major heat problems (depending on the amount of PPA procs during the fight). This is the opposite of other classes, where a player can either be efficient and deal less damage, or burn through their resources to deal high damage. Frankly, this is not a good design. It leads to large disparities in damage from one fight to the next.

 

Bioware is attempting to fix this problem in 1.2 through the following change: The chance to trigger Prototype Particle Accelerator has been increased significantly but cannot trigger more than once every 6 seconds. When Bioware says “the chance to trigger this effect has been increased significantly”, it has been found that they mean PPA now has a 45% chance to proc from Flame Burst (+15%) and a 60% chance to proc from Rocket Punch (+15%).

 

This change is aimed to reduce the amount of burst damage a Pyrotech can output (which makes sense). For example, currently “if the stars align” a Pyrotech can get three PPA procs in a row, which can do around 10k damage from Rail Shot damage alone. Coupled with other damage sources, such as Thermal Detonator (4k if crit) plus the damage abilities that proc PPA, Pyrotechs can deal massive amounts of damage in a short amount of time.

 

Currently, the actual chance of three PPA procs in a row is, assuming 1 Rocket Punch and 2 Flame Bursts, 0.45 * 0.30 * 0.30 = 0.04 or a 4% chance. Although this is a rare case, it still occurs and so it makes sense for Bioware to want to change PPA to make this burst not possible.

 

Bioware’s change to PPA is a step in the right direction, because it attempts to normalize the damage and heat ventilation by adding an internal cooldown to PPA. I say it is only a step in the right direction because Bioware for some reason left the RNG proc chance on PPA after adding on the internal cooldown. Bioware is basically making it so there is NO CHANCE to get the “good”/”stars align” RNG, and yet merely REDUCING the chance to get the “bad” RNG. Bioware, if you make it so there is NO CHANCE to get the good RNG, you have to make it so there is NO CHANCE to get the bad RNG.

 

The proposed 1.2 change to PPA will also have a large negative impact Pyrotech heat management (as will be shown further down). From what I gather from the patch notes, I believe Bioware intends to nerf Pyrotech burst (which is justifiable), but also keep Pyrotech overall DPS the same (or perhaps a slight nerf). I honestly believe Bioware does not realize just how much this 1.2 change will nerf Pyrotech heat management, and thus they do not realize how much 1.2 will nerf Pyrotech overall DPS.

 

In order to prove my point the following damage numbers will be used:

 

Rail Shot average damage: 2450

 

35% chance to crit RS, 1750 average normal hit, 3750 average crit = 0.65*1750+0.35*3750 = 2450

 

Flame Burst average damage: 1120

 

20% chance to crit, 1000 average normal hit, 1600 average crit = 0.8*1000+0.2*1600 = 1120

 

Rocket Punch average damage: 1120

 

20% chance to crit, 1000 average normal hit, 1600 average crit = 0.8*1000+0.2*1600 = 1120

 

Note:

 

The exact values of these numbers doesn’t really matter because the damage of these attacks isn’t being changed in the patch, and I will be only comparing the relative damage and efficiencies of these attacks.

 

By dividing the damage of Flame Burst and Rocket Punch by their respective heat costs (16 heat each) we can calculate the damage per heat (DPH) of each move:

Flame Burst DPH = 1120 / 16 = 70

Rocket Punch DPH = 1120 / 16 = 70

 

However, PPA changes these values because a PPA proc adds Rail Shot damage to the ability for free (in fact, even better than free because it refunds heat). Therefore PPA procs both increase the damage and reduce the heat cost of each move when PPA procs. Because a Flame Burst has a 30% chance to proc a free Rail Shot, by adding 0.3*Rail-Shot-damage to our Flame Burst we can calculate the “effective damage” of Flame Burst:

Flame Burst effective damage = 1120 + 0.3 * 2450 = 1855

Rocket Punch effective damage = 1120 + 0.45 * 2450 = 2223

 

This can also be applied to calculate the “effective heat cost” of both attacks:

Flame Burst effective heat cost = 16 – 0.3 * 8 = 13.6 effective heat

Rocket Punch effective heat cost = 16 – 0.45 * 8 = 12.4 effective heat

 

Therefore, the PPA talent changes the damage per heat of each ability to:

Flame Burst effective DPH = 1855/13.6 = 136

Rocket Punch effective DPH = 2223/12.4 = 179

 

In summation, without the PPA talent the damage per heat of Flame Burst and Rocket Punch are both 70. With PPA the damage per heat of Flame Burst rises to 136 and the damage per heat of Rocket Punch rises to 179.

 

As you can see, PPA doubles the efficiency of Flame Burst and multiplies the efficiency of Rocket Punch by 2.5. The important thing to take from this is that, after the 1.2 changes, any Flame Burst or Rocket Punch while the 6 second internal cooldown is occurring will be using the efficiency of the ability as if the PPA talent was not taken. In other words the efficiency of each ability while the internal cooldown is active is greatly decreased.

 

Bioware is “offsetting” this nerf by increasing the PPA chance by 15%. This increases the effective DPH of a Flame Burst/Rocket Punch (while PPA is off cooldown) to:

Flame Burst effective DPH = 2223/12.4 = 179

Rocket Punch effective DPH = 2590/11.2 = 231

 

What this means is that, in 1.2, a Rocket Punch that can proc PPA is 231/70 = 3.3 TIMES more efficient than a Rocket Punch that cannot proc it. A Flame Burst is 179/70 = 2.55 TIMES more efficient than a Flame Burst that cannot proc PPA. Thus any Rocket Punch or Flame Burst used while the 6 second PPA internal cooldown is active will be horribly inefficient. This will force Pyrotechs to do a LOT more auto-attacking (Rapid Shots) during the internal cooldown. Rapid Shots deals about 400 damage. I think it is pretty clear that going from a rotation that comprised of 1855 effective damage Flame Blasts and 2223 effective damage Rocket Punches, to a rotation that will contain multiple 6-second lapses of mostly auto-attacks is a severe DPS decrease. Nerfing the burst Pyrotechs could deal is perfectly all right with me, but in addition to that severely nerfing the overall DPS of the Pyrotechs is simply overboard.

 

 

This proposed 1.2 change also brings about many “smaller” issues, such as the problem of: How are we the players going to track the internal cooldown? As shown previously, Flame Bursts and Rocket Punches made while the internal cooldown is occuring are incredibly inefficient, and so knowing exactly when the cooldown is up is going to be very important if one wishes to maximize damage output. I hope Bioware doesn’t expect us to count in our heads to exactly 6 seconds every time we get the proc.

 

Another issue is that any Flame Burst / Rocket Punch made while Rail Shot is off cooldown (for example opening the fight with Flame Burst, or using Flame Burst for the slow) has a good chance of triggering PPA, thus wasting the Rail Shot reset and incurring the 6 second cooldown. As said earlier, Rail Shot requires a damage-over-time on the target in order to be used, and so currently many Pyrotechs favored opening the fight with Flame Burst (for the 100% chance to proc a 6 second DoT) rather than using the costly 25 heat Incendiary Missile DoT. Post-1.2 this will no longer be an option because it is too risky to open a fight with Flame Burst and start the internal cooldown.

 

 

Here are some proposed changes to the 1.2 patch notes that will hopefully help to fix the problems the current patch notes will bring to the Pyrotech spec.

 

1) Make Rocket Punch / Flame Burst have a 100% chance to proc PPA outside of the global cooldown. This solves the issue brought up earlier, where with the 1.2 change you are essentially making it so we have no chance for “good RNG”, and yet leaving the chance for “bad RNG”. RNG procs with internal cooldowns are bad.

 

-and/or-

 

2) Greatly increase auto-attack (Rapid Shots) damage. If you want to force us to use auto attacks a lot more, in order to offset this large DPS decrease you will need to greatly increase the damage of the auto-attack. This also helps to offset the problem Pyrotechs currently have, where if you get high on heat you literally have to use auto-attack for 20 seconds to get back to low heat levels (because the higher heat you are the worse heat ventilation you get).

 

-or-

 

3) Completely change PPA to reduce the cooldown of Rail Shot to 6 seconds and make Rail Shot free all the time. This solves the issue of tracking the internal cooldown (there will be no internal cooldown). This also makes it so that our damage output as well as heat management is very stable.

 

-or-

 

4) Change the PPA internal cooldown to 4.5 seconds. See this post (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=370674) for more details.

 

-and-

 

5)

If you decide to keep the internal cooldown, as said before it will be important when the cooldown ends. Perhaps a 6-second buff whenever PPA procs could help with this issue.

Edit: You an ignore this suggestion. After further discussion in this thread with other people, they've brought up the point that because Bioware hasn't done this for any other classes' internal cooldowns they probably won't start here.

 

Feel free to propose alternative changes, discuss the changes I have here, and discuss the 1.2 Pyrotech changes in general.

 

eah pretty much a sad joke proposition on bio wares part. i think everything is fine the way it is, except for the fact my BH is not even recieveing his set bonuses for rakata gear and have yet to get the issue addressed same with DEGAUSS talent in pyro spec, works about 25% of the time it should other wise your cc break is ignored. can you atleast make the BH 100% before younerf thshi outa them? also i work my *** off to get top spot or top 3 in warzones, this is done by defendig protection and killing, but i rarely go over 250k. but can take anone 1v1 with alll cd's but have no where near the damage, melee classes and some sorcs can cause, so its fine for them to pull 300-400k damage but my 150k average with 8 medals from hard work is unfair? gimme a break guys, youre still fine tunning force users cause of glitches that give extra healing or damage, anyone remember 9k crits? all these glitches were accident huh? guess it doesnt really matter, just leave the classes alone for 1.2 the new content and gear looks great but if you **** all over my class lke your proposeing my subscription is gone, long with most of my guild. good luck bio-ware

[busterbone]

I have been thinking about all this problem quite a lot, reading most of topics about that on forums and 1 thing is bothering me. Let me use diagram from http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=370674:

 

 

--- --- --- --- --- ---

FB RS FB FB FB RS

 

So, at the moment, on average, you will be rail shotting every 6 seconds. (from the start of the first RS to the start of the second)

 

1.2: Average proccing (2 FB required on average)

 

!--- --- --- --- --- !--- ---

FB_RS_X_X_FB_FB_RS

 

 

As you can see, now we get to rail on average every 6 seconds, but 1.2 we will be averaging 7.5 seconds.

 

 

 

So, according to the above, current theoretical rotation is 3xFB, RS.

 

This is 4 GCD, 6 seconds. Heat regen is 5/sec. Overall cost of above skills is 16x3 = 48 (RS is free). You regen 30 heat in this time +8 heat vented by RS. At the and of those 6 seconds you are at 10 heat.

 

Another rotation and you are at 20 heat at the end.During next rotation you will overheat.

 

Conclusion:

 

3xFB + RS is not sustainable. Throwing in RP is helping, but we have to remember that current proc rate on FB is 30%, not 33,33%, so average proc will be not exactly after 3 FB.

 

Anyway, to achieve completly sustainable roation, you have to throw rapid shots into every cycle. This way every rotation will leave you at +2,5 heat, this will be negated by higher chance of RP to proc PPA and you can (on average) do this without end.

 

Drawback? Using rapid shots you are now "wasting" chance for PPA to proc.

 

In 1.2 you will proc PPA on average every 7,5 sec. So you can do FB, rapid shots, FB, FB, RS and so on.

 

Difference? You are not "wasting" your chance for PPA.

 

I see what you’re saying. In a nutshell, you’re saying that currently we auto-attack once per rotation, and come 1.2 we will still need to only auto-attack once per rotation. You say the main difference will be an additional 1.5 seconds between Rail Shots, and that we will fill the gap with a Flame Burst, right?

 

You noted however, that currently if we auto-attack once per rotation it “will leave you at +2,5 heat”. You say it is offset by the 45% chance on Rocket Punch, but you must also factor in what you said earlier, about Flame Burst being 30% not 33.3%. Either way, basically right now if we do the rotation with 1 auto-attack per Rail Shot we will barely break even heat-wise, right?

 

Think about it though, adding an additional 1.5 seconds between Rail Shots will lower our heat-regen. Less Rail Shots = less heat ventillation (Less Rail Shots also = less DPS because Rail shot is our hardest hitting ability). Also, adding more Flame Bursts to fill the gap will cost more heat too. In other words, our DPS rotation which already didn’t quite break even heat-wise will now definitely not break even. This will result in a DPS loss.

 

DPS loss isn’t the only reason I made this thread however. Maybe Bioware completely intends to nerf our overall DPS, in addition to our burst? Personally, I wouldn’t advise doing too many nerfs in one patch, because the results are unforeseeable. But, I guess it's up to Bioware.

 

Unfortunately, these aren’t the only things Bioware's patch addresses however, as I will show you when I address the second part of your quote:

 

Another thing. What is your chance to go for 9 seconds without proc now? (9 sec because this is CD of RP, and trying to get a proc by spamming RP+5 FB will leave you overheated, so you really dont want to do that).

 

0,55*0,7*0,7*0,7*0,7*0,7=0,09

 

What are you chances for not getting PPA proc for 9 sec in 1.2? (1RP+3FB, becasue during 2 GCD you cant proc PPA)

 

0,4*0,55*0,55*0,55=0,067

 

So currently we can use 6 attacks, driving us to a very bad heat level, and not even get a single Rail Shot proc. I think we’d both agree this is a bad thing, and that it should be fixed?

 

However, as you showed, in 1.2 this is clearly not being fixed. There will still be a 0.067 chance to not get any PPA procs in 9 seconds. Thus, in total, this change is single-handedly nerfing our burst, overall DPS, heat management, and not even addressing our issues with getting large “famine” streaks. If Bioware wants to remove our “feasts” (multiple PPA procs), that’s fine by me. But please, if Bioware removes the good RNG out of a completely RNG-dependent class, can they remove the bad RNG too?

Edited March 23, 2012 by busterbone
Typo

[busterbone]

Wrong, since DFA is being nerfed.

DFA is being nerfed for both of us, which hurts us equally.

 

 

Each child has the same ability to source calories from DFA, Unload, Rapid Shots, TD and Jet Boost. One child has the ability to source calories from RS much easier than the other. That ability is being reduced while still remaining superior to the ability of the other child.

Except you gain more "calories" out of Unload than Powertechs do. And you say we gain equal calories out of Jet Boost? That's strange, considering Powertechs don't get that ability. While we might get the same mileage out of some of the abilities we share, you must realize that we also get very different mileages out of some of the abilities we share, too.

 

The problem is that it is not balanced. Not to sound egotistical, but my ability to score 600k in a wz is an aberration. There are a select group of players on my server that I consider my peers. Against these players there is no chance that a merc pyro can output as much damage as a sorc, marauder or PT pyro. I've seen a top sorc or marauder do >850k while on my team in the same match that I do 650k. By way of contrast a top PT pyro isn't as distant but it will still output ~15% more than a merc pyro. That is the state of game (im)balance amongst the top players. That is why we all re-rolled as Maras. You (and BW) can contemplate that or ignore it. Doesn't matter since we'll see you all in ranked wz as Maras.

But how can you say that PT pyros deal ~15% more damage than a merc pyro? What are you basing this statistic on? Your own experiences? Are you certain that your own, personal experience with "a select group of players" accurately portrays SWTOR class balance as a whole?

 

You also must realize that there are a lot of variables that go in to end-of-WZ damage, such as how many times you die, how many healers are on each team, and whether you get a lot of great DFAs off. Remember, a lot of an end-of-WZ damage is also just AoE.

 

Thus, does a sorc doing 850k damage mean sorcs are better damage dealers than merc pyros, because you only did 600k? Perhaps, but one of their main attacks is also an AoE instant cast, which inflates their dmg. I also think that merc pyros have better on-demand burst.

 

And I'm curious, do you think that citing warzones where multiple players in your "select group" are achieving close to 1 million damage each are the best warzones to decide class balance? Are you sure these aren't just Void Stars where you completely dominate under-geared pugs with a group of the best PvP-ers on your server?

 

In conclusion, I don't think we will be able to provide such hard statistics (such as when you stated PT pyro deals 15% more dmg than a merc pyro) until we get some kind of DPS-meter in-game.

[Kaarsa]

Yea, removing RNG would be great, but I would not count on it.

 

About adding 1,5 sec between RS - point is, you are not adding anything. In my example, currently you need to use 1 rapid shot into rotation to maintain heat, which ends with 3xFB, rapid shots and RS in Q rotation, 5 skills, 7,5 sec to execute full rotation. So, on average nothing will change in this department in 1.2, still 7,5 sec between RS.

 

You are right, they took away good side of RNG, but bad side is relieved now considerably (at least on paper).

 

My conclusion is that while it is a nerf, it is not class-breaking. PT pyro will still be viable and fun class with good dps and nice burst potential. Different than before, but still strong. We will see:)

[arkzehhh]

The nerf is way too big...It's ridiculous. gonna leave this game if it goes live. That's it.

 

lolol

[anarchythreeotwo]

/signed.

 

I agree, its bad to put an cooldown on RNG abilities. It should either be 100% of the time with a GCD, or RNG with no GCD.