2 ammo out of 12 ammo is not 16% of the bar. 2/12 = 16.6667% which is closer to 17% So you are admitting that BH's have a minor advantage some of the time? Minor imbalances are still imbalances. I'm sure if the situation was reversed and it was the BH who was "only a little worse" you'd definitely care about a minor imbalance. Why do you support one class being slightly superior than its "mirror"? And by the way, as a BH/Trooper you definitely need to look at the bar. "Attack A followed by B followed by C followed by D" will NOT always equal X amount of ammo/heat, because we get certain heat-reducing procs some of the time. It's absurd to suggest that Troopers don't need to look at their ammo bar.

Well, I feel like we've done all we can. It's up to Bioware now I want to thank you too for the time you've put into this thread and for helping to keep it alive over the past week or so!

I just felt like Voidstars where multiple people on your team are getting numbers close to 1 million damage aren't the best way to gauge class balance. I guess I can't argue with you though because you're a "top player" and I'm just a complete noob who's "flat out wrong". And I don't think balancing the game around Void star damage is the right thing to do because so much damage is AoE. Do you think developers say "Oh look, this class does more damage than another class in this 15 minute long AoE fight with hundreds of variables such as deaths/OOC regen-time/stuns/cc/running away when you're at low health/number of healers/travel-time/time spent disarming or arming bombs/constant target switches, let's nerf their single-target DPS!"? No, because buffing/nerfing single-target DPS based on things like overall damage in a warzone is ridiculous based on the mere fact that classes with better AoE will do better damage in Void Star. Not to mention all the other variables listed above. But you know what? Let's stop arguing because it's pointless and whatever Bioware decides to do, they're going to do. We may have strongly disagreed so far, but overall I still appreciate your input and I want to thank you for taking the time to respond to me so far.

Excellent point, I don’t know why I forgot about that. I think I get what you’re saying now: that our overall sustainable DPS isn’t being affected because in theory we should be currently auto-attacking every rotation anyway. Makes sense. I wanted to make sure everything we are theorizing is “right” so I threw it all into a spreadsheet, and I found something that I think you’ll find interesting. Here’s the spreadsheet: http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/716/swtor12.png Let me know if it doesn’t work Like you said, when we are going through a sustainable rotation our DPS doesn’t change with this 1.2 patch. However, look at what happens when we decide to eliminate auto-attacks (let’s say we our in a 30 second “burn” phase in a PVE encounter). You’ll notice that currently if we don’t auto attack, we use 50 heat per 30 second rotation, and instead of the standard 24840 damage per 30 seconds, it increases to 29050 damage. That’s a 17% DPS increase for 50 heat, or 0.34% DPS increase per 1 heat. Now look at what happens when we try to do a 30 second “burn” rotation in 1.2. We only see a 12% DPS increase and it costs us 74 heat, which is a 0.16% DPS increase per 1 heat. Thus, come 1.2 we will get less of a DPS increase should we choose to not auto-attack. You might be thinking, “yea that’s the whole point of this patch, to reduce your burst.” But what I’m talking about here isn’t the “OMG 4 RAIL SHOTS IN A ROW” kind of burst that Bioware wants to get rid of this patch. I’m talking about the option to sacrifice some sustainability in order to increase damage. Now, why am I bothering to bring this up? Well, in PvP anytime you are CC’d or otherwise unable to attack a target you are regaining heat. Many times when we are being attacked, due to Gyroscopic Alignment Jets, we get extra heat. Anytime we use Vent Heat or Thermal Sensor Override, we get extra heat. You can choose to use this “extra heat” you’ve gained in order to increase your DPS, by switching auto-attacks out with Flame Bursts. In 1.2 we won’t be able to use this “extra heat” as effectively, thus our overall DPS is still being nerfed. I want to emphasize however that everything I just said is simply theorycrafting and I said it because I thought you’d be interested by it. For the most part, I agree with what you’ve proved. You’ve actually made me feel better about this patch, because you’ve shown how our sustained DPS isn’t really being nerfed all that hard. My original post wasn’t just about Bioware nerfing our DPS however, it was also about how they eliminated our “feast” RNG but left the “famine” RNG. I still think this should be addressed. But I’ll be honest though, I’m tired of theorycrafting and I really didn’t expect 30 pages of replies. I think at this stage it’s really up to Bioware on how they want to change Pyrotechs. Whatever changes they put through, I guess we’ll just have to adapt. I appreciate the feedback you’ve given so far though.

I think you have the current rotation wrong then. By your calculations, FBx3 and 1 rail shot is unsustainable, correct? Currently, the solution is to replace a Flame Burst with an auto-attack in order to be sustainable, which is what I thought you meant. The current solution is not to add an auto-attack, which is what I now know you meant. In other words, a sustainable pre-1.2 rotation would be: RS FB FB AA RS FB FB AA RS FB FB AA Not: RS FB FB FB AA RS FB FB FB AA RS FB FB FB AA As you suggested. The rotation you suggest is equivalent to what our rotation will be after 1.2, which is why you think we aren't losing anything with this change. Unfortunately this is not the case, because our current rotation is RS FB FB AA RS, not RS FB FB FB AA RS. Now that you know this, try re-read my post at the top of this page and I think it will make more sense. It will show you why a rotation of RS FB FB AA is superior both DPS-wise and heat-wise to a rotation of RS FB FB FB AA (which we will be forced to use post-1.2). Currently there is a 9% chance to go 9 seconds without a PPA, post-1.2 there is a 7% chance to go 9 seconds without a PPA. I don't know if I would say that a 2% reduction is being "relieved considerably". Put it this way, currently there is a 13.5% chance you can open up a fight with 3 back to back Rail Shots. Post-1.2 there is a 0% chance you can do this. That is being relieved considerably I still stand by the notion that if you completely remove the chance of good RNG from a RNG-dependent class, you should completely remove the chance of bad RNG too (especially if you are also nerfing the burst, sustained DPS, and resource management of said class). We shall.

DFA is being nerfed for both of us, which hurts us equally. Except you gain more "calories" out of Unload than Powertechs do. And you say we gain equal calories out of Jet Boost? That's strange, considering Powertechs don't get that ability. While we might get the same mileage out of some of the abilities we share, you must realize that we also get very different mileages out of some of the abilities we share, too. But how can you say that PT pyros deal ~15% more damage than a merc pyro? What are you basing this statistic on? Your own experiences? Are you certain that your own, personal experience with "a select group of players" accurately portrays SWTOR class balance as a whole? You also must realize that there are a lot of variables that go in to end-of-WZ damage, such as how many times you die, how many healers are on each team, and whether you get a lot of great DFAs off. Remember, a lot of an end-of-WZ damage is also just AoE. Thus, does a sorc doing 850k damage mean sorcs are better damage dealers than merc pyros, because you only did 600k? Perhaps, but one of their main attacks is also an AoE instant cast, which inflates their dmg. I also think that merc pyros have better on-demand burst. And I'm curious, do you think that citing warzones where multiple players in your "select group" are achieving close to 1 million damage each are the best warzones to decide class balance? Are you sure these aren't just Void Stars where you completely dominate under-geared pugs with a group of the best PvP-ers on your server? In conclusion, I don't think we will be able to provide such hard statistics (such as when you stated PT pyro deals 15% more dmg than a merc pyro) until we get some kind of DPS-meter in-game.

I see what you’re saying. In a nutshell, you’re saying that currently we auto-attack once per rotation, and come 1.2 we will still need to only auto-attack once per rotation. You say the main difference will be an additional 1.5 seconds between Rail Shots, and that we will fill the gap with a Flame Burst, right? You noted however, that currently if we auto-attack once per rotation it “will leave you at +2,5 heat”. You say it is offset by the 45% chance on Rocket Punch, but you must also factor in what you said earlier, about Flame Burst being 30% not 33.3%. Either way, basically right now if we do the rotation with 1 auto-attack per Rail Shot we will barely break even heat-wise, right? Think about it though, adding an additional 1.5 seconds between Rail Shots will lower our heat-regen. Less Rail Shots = less heat ventillation (Less Rail Shots also = less DPS because Rail shot is our hardest hitting ability). Also, adding more Flame Bursts to fill the gap will cost more heat too. In other words, our DPS rotation which already didn’t quite break even heat-wise will now definitely not break even. This will result in a DPS loss. DPS loss isn’t the only reason I made this thread however. Maybe Bioware completely intends to nerf our overall DPS, in addition to our burst? Personally, I wouldn’t advise doing too many nerfs in one patch, because the results are unforeseeable. But, I guess it's up to Bioware. Unfortunately, these aren’t the only things Bioware's patch addresses however, as I will show you when I address the second part of your quote: So currently we can use 6 attacks, driving us to a very bad heat level, and not even get a single Rail Shot proc. I think we’d both agree this is a bad thing, and that it should be fixed? However, as you showed, in 1.2 this is clearly not being fixed. There will still be a 0.067 chance to not get any PPA procs in 9 seconds. Thus, in total, this change is single-handedly nerfing our burst, overall DPS, heat management, and not even addressing our issues with getting large “famine” streaks. If Bioware wants to remove our “feasts” (multiple PPA procs), that’s fine by me. But please, if Bioware removes the good RNG out of a completely RNG-dependent class, can they remove the bad RNG too?

Alright I can put it into food terms First of all, one child (the Mercenary child) is not really getting their cupcakes reduced because 3 is already the lowest it can go, so they are going from 3 cupcakes --> 3 cupcakes. Over the course of a full day (a full warzone), the Mercenary child is apparently still getting 600k calories (damage done) even though he gets less cupcakes, because cupcakes aren't his main food source. Most of what the Mercenary child eats is actually cake, ice cream, and brownies so even if his share of cupcakes was reduced (which it isn't) it wouldn't affect him very much. For Powertech child on the other hand, cupcakes is his main food source. Yes, he gets cake, ice cream, and brownies too, but most of his calories come from cupcakes, not these other food sources (compared to the Mercenary child). So you see, when both children get their number of cupcakes reduced (except as shown above the Mercenary child isn't really losing any cupcakes), it affects the Powertech child more because cupcakes made up a lot of his total calorie intake. In summation, different classes are different. Yes, we Powertechs currently get more Rail Shots than Mercenaries. That's just how it's balanced. You seem to do quite fine without as many Rail Shots however (you even say you deal 600k damage a warzone). Let me try flip the situation, maybe it will make more sense: Let's say they nerfed Unload/Full Auto, and doubled the cooldown. Obviously you use Unload more than I do (the only time I would ever use it is if I'm rooted and have nothing else to use while someone is 30m away. Therefore, you are more affected by the nerf. But what if I came to you said "why are you complaining about the nerf? Your Unload already procs PPA, ours doesn't even do that. Stop complaining about Unload getting nerfed, because our Unload is even worse than your Unload." It doesn't make sense, because obviously you are being hit harder by the Unload nerf than I am. Now do you see how you sound to us?

Mercenaries and Powertechs are very different classes. Yes, we share some abilities, but we are still very different. Currently, like you said, Rail Shot is not a very big part of your rotation. However, Rail Shot is a very big part of a Powertech's rotation. Thus, we are not being equally affected by the Rail Shot change in this patch. You specifically said: Therefore, you aren't being negatively impacted by PPA being changed. If you are currently getting one Rail Shot per 15 seconds, in 1.2, at worst, you will still get one Rail Shot per 15 seconds. However, even if you were being negatively impacted by this change, it would still affect Powertechs more because Rail Shot is more important to a Powertech than it is to a Mercenary. You said it yourself: Thus, if something negatively affects Rail Shot it will negatively affect Powertechs more than it negatively affects Mercenaries. Trust me this has nothing to do with being "tacky".

0.5 seconds is a lot when the thing we are talking about is only 1.5 seconds. You were 33% off, I think that's a lot. My entire original post requires you to have the general knowledge of things such as the global cooldown in order to be comprehended, so I guess it makes sense why I have to explain the same things five times to you. I specifically stated it in the original post however. It undermines your argument when you get simple things like percentages wrong. Um, that's a big difference. You stated that it was a KB on players, when it is clearly not. So let me get this straight, you honestly believe that "Pyrotechs, on average, deal 100k more dmg than any other DPS specced class"? You are citing this as evidence? Because there is no way you can back a claim like this up. Scroll up to the top of your post. See where you wrote ? You clearly just wrote that I "said" something. I guess you're a real bright boy too? Except Rail Shot can't be used "every other move" like you said it could. And could you please stop saying "derp derp"? It doesn't help your argument. That's not why I quoted you. I quoted you because you said "Maybe nerfing the high end DPS will make winning less dependent on who has the best bounty hunters." You clearly said the team that wins is the team with the best bounty hunters, not best dps, which is a laughably untrue claim. 30 seconds is not "0.5 seconds" off 1 minute. Actually, I've explained how big of a change it will be many, many times. I am not talking about End-of-WZ damage, because End-of-WZ damage is highly dependent on AoE and how many healers you/the opposing team had. I am talking about single target DPS, which is what matters. What I'm saying must be wrong because I have to make my opponents look bad? I'm sorry but you make yourself look bad all by yourself, I am just here to show you how truly wrong you really are.

What are you trying to say? I am literally saying that 3 3.7k crits in a row is OP, and that that should be nerfed. Are you disagreeing with this? Are you trying to say that our burst is currently underpowered? I just thought it was amusing that you state you have a level 32 Pyro as if it has any relevance. You not being a level 50 Pyrotech is not why I think you don't know what you're talking about. I think you don't know what you're talking about because of things like: -You thought the global cooldown was 1 second. -You thought Rocket Punch is going to get a 65% chance to proc PPA. -You thought Thermal Grenade (I assume you mean Thermal Detonator) was a knock-back. -You stated that "Pyrotechs, on average, deal 100k more dmg than any other DPS specced class". You are basing this on what exactly? -You say Pyrotechs have infinite heat. -You say Pyrotechs get "a free -8 heat move every other move" -You say "Maybe nerfing the high end DPS will make winning less dependent on who has the best bounty hunters." -You say "It takes around a minute to wind down a pure burning Pyro, longer if hes lucky" I've pulled all these quotes right out of this thread. Are you seriously telling me to derp derp? The entire reason I posted the damage values of our attacks is to give people like you, who don't play Pyrotechs at level 50, an idea of how the class works and what we hit for. I seem to recall typing at least four alternatives in the original post. Again, is there something wrong with me saying that our burst is currently OP? Yes, I think that the current changes are too much. I've provided a lot of math and examples (my original post was 10 pages long in Word) to back me up. You back up your arguments with completely untrue statements (see above), and anecdotes from your level 32 Pyrotech.

Are you trying to say that you, a lvl 32 Pyro, has a better grasp of how a level 50 Pyrotech works than... a lvl 50 Pyro? Do you even know what lvl 50 Pyros hit for? Do you know the kind of health pools at 50? Do you have any idea what it is like to play a lvl 50 Pyrotech? The 'stars align' moment is the problem. Maybe not for you, at lvl 32, because getting back-to-back 1000 crits isn't special. At level 50 getting 3 back to back 3.7k crits is a problem. You don't think that's a problem? And how many times do I have to say this: we are not just losing our "imbalanced trait" (burst), we are taking a massive hit to our heat regen and overall DPS capabilities too.

Infinite energy? How can you say that with a straight face? If you have played a level 50 Pyrotech (which you haven't) you would know that our energy is highly RNG dependent. All you know is that one time a Pyrotech got lucky and bursted you down. You will never remember the time the Pyrotech got unlucky and hit you like a wet noodle. Bioware is eliminating the "good" (stars align-- whatever you want to call it) RNG chance with this patch. Which means Bioware is eliminating our massive burst / massive heat regen capabilities. This is fine, great even. As long as they make it so we never get the horrible no-proc streaks where we hit like a wet noodle. They are not doing this in 1.2, they are just getting rid of our "good" RNG. Now do you understand why we are against the changes? (BTW this was all clearly stated in the OP)

Except I do think it has a point (and I wrote 10 pages to try get it across as clearly as I could) How do you expect me to do this when there is no way to currently calculate DPS? There is no way to have a DPS meter in game because currently there is no combat log. However, it is still easy to see how our DPS is going to suffer in this patch. As I said in the original post, attacks made while the internal cooldown is active are going to be horribly inefficient, to the point where we will be forced to auto-attack. I hope you can see that going from a rotation that comprised of 1000 damage (minimum) Flame Bursts and Rocket Punches that proc 2000 damage Rail Shots, to one that is filled with auto-attacks (400 dmg) is a DPS decrease. I've said this before but I guess I'll say it again: No one is mad about nerfing Pyrotech burst damage. Nerfing Pyrotech burst damage in addition to causing rampant heat problems which will then nerf our overall DPS is too much though. By the way, I didn't bother to address your first two points because it's not worth the time. Go reread the original post please.

I'm not a math major either, but I know that you don't need Calculus for simple probabilities such as the ones I've posted in this thread. Thanks for saying my math is pretty though