1.2 New armor models!

[Sosyn]

Here's an open question in regards to that.

 

We always have to balance two things with armor. On the one hand, there's the gameplay requirement of "Make high level, very exclusive armor look like it's unique and powerful so other players can see that at a glance".

 

On the other, there's the aesthetics requirement - to make clothing echo the simple, almost plain looking clothing that's seen on some characters in the Star Wars saga. That led, in part, to orange gear in the game, which allows you to have an iconic appearance that doesn't suggest your gear's statistics.

 

The question is, how do you balance that? Arguably Obi-Wan's robes in Episode IV are very 'low level' in appearance. Would you want to see that as an armor set for a high level character? Would you not be concerned that players would see you as low-level? Or do aesthetics trump gameplay for you?

 

the fact that we will have the choice to strip the mods from the higher end armor and put it in our custom gear will be nice enough , the ones that do value their armor showing off their achievments can still wear their extravagant outfits and be all "look at me , i'm special"

 

so for someone who prefers aesthetics i still get the best mods so gameplay is not hurt

 

and to derail my own post ....

 

if you could just please add some orange pieces ingame for the guardian that look exactly the same as the armor worn when creating said guardian i might actually play my guardian and be happy with that look untill the end of days , but now he just sits in character selection screen with his hood up gathering dust because i got tired of the cutscenes where he looks bald with his hood up as if he is some sinister thief hiding in the shadows while infact he is a guardian of the light defending the republic

 

all the jedi knight screenshots that are posted by swtor devs all show the robes with their hoods down , so you have the stuff ... can we please just get it now ?

[veevito]

Honestly it's going to be nearly impossible to make armor that represents what truly powerful Star Wars characters wore.

 

Think about it this way. Game update 1.3 comes along, the devs buckle down and make the "Plain and Simple" style everyone wants. Then 1.4 comes along (or a new expansion, w-e) they have to build on that idea some more? How? How do you make simple robes keep their classic look and make it to where it's something other players can look at and be look "He/She is an experienced player"? This is an mmo, armor aesthetics are part of the genre. Higher leveled characters with lots of experience with HM/NM ops need to be recognized somehow by just seeing them roaming around.

 

I know it sounds stupid but this is how it works. For those that want the simpler, more Star Wars look, they can look to Orange gear (which will inevitably be better than tier 2+ gear because of mod swaps+augments) from now on. There will be more orange gear, HOPEFULLY that looks like what everyone wants, and the devs can keep making the flashy gear for the rest of the people that like to look flashy.

 

That's not really an argument. Using that argument, you could also say "how can they build upon the giant spikes and blades?". Make even larger ones?

 

Saying that you shouldn't use restraint because it would be hard to improve upon cuts both ways. Using your own argument, in a year and a half there will be armor with spikes and space helmets the likes of which we've never seen. Because, after all, how can you improve upon 1.2's spikes? make bigger ones?

 

It's actualyl an argument for restraint at the beginning.

 

 

Edit: What 1.2 looks like is more akin to what I would expect 10 years into the game and all ideas have exhausted and they get a little punchy.

 

Not 3 months in.

 

Edit 2: You're quote: "This is an mmo, armor aesthetics are part of the genre. Higher leveled characters with lots of experience with HM/NM ops need to be recognized somehow by just seeing them roaming around."

 

You're opinion is what I consider wrong with the mindset of the genre. It's what has kept mmo's in the stale merry go round they've been in for 10 years.

Edited April 1, 2012 by veevito

[spcdog]

I also believe that as a result, you will see a significant increase in the number of level 50 players wearing "simple brown robes". They are, after all, THE iconic jedi outfit.

 

I would expect that if BioWare is smart, they'll just use all their nifty data mining tools and look at which orange pieces the majority of players gravitate toward, post-1.2, and use that as an indication of what the majority wants.

 

Personally, almost none of the armor looks good to me, because it's all wallpaper. There are some lower-end pieces (e.g. Hydraulic Press set) that are awesome because they have extra geometry that gives real 3-D depth to them. The vast majority of mid-range armor is just a flat texture, and no amount of higher resolution can make that look as good. It's like BioWare started out trying to make all armor have real dimension, but then punted at the end because they ran out of time before releasing and just skinned textures on a couple generic models. Robes need real geometry layers; you can't just fake it with a texture.

 

IMO this limits the current "real" choices for armor pretty severely, as it's hard to feel epic when my character looks more like a paper doll than a sculpted hero.

 

Also, as a secondary gripe, the current "make the character bald when the hood is up" solution is abhorrent. I'd like to have my hood up, especially on my Sith characters, but I should still have a hairline when that happens. I realize it's an easy solution to the myriad geometry clipping issues that come up, but it would be nice to see a more aesthetic solution at some point.

 

You guys put what was obviously an insane amount of work into the mocap and facial animations, not to mention the overall facial quality (the eyes are the most expressive I've seen in any game, ever, by orders of magnitude). It's really a shame that the way the gear overlays are implemented detracts so much from that.

[spcdog]

Arguably Obi-Wan's robes in Episode IV are very 'low level' in appearance.

 

Obi-wan's robes weren't a single layer of geometry with a texture mapped on top trying to simulate depth. They had real layers to them. Also, much like my avatar to the left there, Obi-wan still had a hairline when his hood was up...

Edited April 1, 2012 by spcdog

[Balmuck]

The 1.2 Sage gear is probably the worst looking endgame gear set I've ever seen in any MMO I have played so far.

 

 

Both sets look over the top ridiculous and I have no idea how anyone from Bioware's art team actually taught they would belong in Star Wars universe.

 

 

The PVE sets, continues the complete disregard for your male players by providing another over the top, extremely feminine, Brazilian carnival dress style, type of armor, which there is plenty off already. Most of our current PVE gear makes us look like female banana trees for some odd reason and Bioware has managed to continue the trend.

 

 

The PVP set, is just as mentioned above but with a tarp as a body piece and then, I don't even know what to call it, head piece. Seriously, what is that? Some sorta samurai/beetle/daemon horns style of armor?

[Rojahar]

Even if this wasn't Star Wars, I can't imagine ANYONE thinking some of those look good.

[Kyuuu]

1.2 new armor is ugly they dont even look like something beloging to sw universe. but then I though alot of the armor in 1.0 where ugly. but atlest those looked like they belonged to sw universe

[PeRgE]

It seems to me that BW employee's are not Star Wars fan! Also they DO NOT play there own game. like I said in another post. BE you have till my sub runs out to fix this mess. Or ill go and never return.

[Slurmez]

With all due respect, that's not entirely constructive criticism, but I see your point.

 

Obviously, anything visual is going to be highly subjective, but we're not trying to be avant garde for the sake of it. Like I said, the team is listening and we want to hear which specific elements you may have an issue with, too.

 

"subjective" is fine but when the very vast majority of people in a thread AGREE in a FORUM thread of all things (where by its very nature agreement will happen once in a blue moon) then it enters into fact and is no longer subjective at all

 

1.2 armours are a disgrace and your "there there, we listen" words are meaningless because all you have actually said is "in the future we will try not to make asstastic armour designs" and are enacting nothing. No re-evaluation, no dipping into the big bag of armour designs you have on standby to see if there is anything less terrible there to replace the 1.2 mess. You use words like "some of you" to describe the people who hate this dreck which is outright insulting because it isnt "some" at all, its nearly "all". Talking things down may make you feel good but does nothing to assure the players that you are taking them seriously.

 

You guys even call the recolouring of the rated armour "prestigious" in the fluff PvP yadda yadda

Edited April 2, 2012 by Meluna
rude

[Taimedown]

that is kinda scary.

[ELECTRICJUDGMENT]

Here are a few examples of armors worn by high ranking Old Republic Jedi. Star Wars EU fans love these. Not because they are gaudy, or have massive plates of armor, but because of the details and the attitude they convey. They also represent a distinct visual style of that time period in the EU. The Old Republic was naturally a very gritty and war-torn era in the timeline.

 

http://images.darkhorse.com/covers/400/s/swdl5.jpg

http://images.darkhorse.com/covers/400/s/swtjtpb.jpg

http://images.darkhorse.com/covers/400/s/swsw5.jpg

http://images.darkhorse.com/covers/400/s/swdl2.jpg

http://images.darkhorse.com/covers/400/s/swdl6.jpg

 

Jedi Masters have never really needed heavy armor plating to engage in massive epic battles. This alone suggests a very high level of skill. Free movement in combat is more important to a Jedi. No amount of armor is going to stop a lightsaber (at least outside of the game) for long. It might survive a few grazes from a lightsaber, but a parried jab is going straight through that heavy armor. They rely more on acrobatic feats, dueling and use of the Force.

 

I'm not saying no Jedi wears heavy plates of armor, but it was never at the expense of their ability to evade first, rather than absorb, enemy attacks (lightsabers and heavy blaster fire). Any armor plating worn by Jedi had a specific tactical purpose, usually for dueling. For blaster fire, they rely on the Force and their lightsaber to evade or deflect these attacks.

 

Also, the small details are very much appreciated by Star Wars fans. They show that the armor/clothing is unique and was crafted with great care. I know this means more time and better art but in the end it is so worth it.

 

Regarding plating on Jedi armor, and sticking with the concept that the most skilled Jedi require the least amount of armor, it would make the most sense for visible armor plating on Jedi armors to decrease and become more refined as the player approaches level 50+.

 

Think of the armor as training wheels, or sparring equipment, to assist the Jedi through various phases of their journey to the rank of Master. High level armors having least amount of visible armor plating.

 

Of course, a Master's wardrobe isn't limited to only the more popular robes in the style of the films, but also armors made of leather and other more exotic flexible materials. Revan's robes, for example, were a combination of different leathers and cloths, save for his chest piece which was also bound by a leather-like material, and of course his mask. A great example of highly mobile Jedi armor without sacrificing too much defense.

 

To comment on the current armors in the game, some are very good designs. However, what really confuses me is the armor plating attached to the outside of robes (shoulders, neck, back). These pieces need to be grounded/strapped somewhere, so they don't weigh the robe down or start flying everywhere when the Jedi is in combat. How terrible would it be if a Jedi's heavy shoulder guards swung up and smacked him in the face while performing Jung Ma? I know it doesn't happen in the game world, but visually it just does not make sense to have these pieces hanging freely on the outside of a robe.

 

A great way for an artist to go about this is to make a choice, "Do I make a robe?" or "Do I make armor?" and then if they want add elements of a robe, like a hood and cloak, or drape a robe over the armor. Not the other way around. Going back to Revan's robe, this was not technically a robe. It was armor, with leg wraps and hooded cowl w/ cloak. If an artist/designers is able to say "Am I making armor or a robe?" that would really help I think.

Edited April 1, 2012 by ELECTRICJUDGMENT

[Neopopulas]

Honestly, in a lot of ways, i think SO many armour sets would look better (and DO look better) with two simple changes.

 

1) Remove the head piece (which most people do)

2) Remove the shoulerpads. which unfortunately we can't do. So many armour pieces are cool but have HUGE useless silly looking shoulder pads sticking out. Darth Serevin, on Voss, for example, has a really cool outfit. Its all black underneath with a purple 'robe' over the top, with two lines of purple and belted across the front.

 

Its a really cool outfit and WANT it, but it still has these big stupid useless shoulder pads that help NOTHING and would just get in the way of my awesome, flippy agile marauder.

 

With that in mind, these build what i could consider an epic outfit i would love my marauder to wear. Watch out for the raw editing skills, they are kinda sharp.

 

Serevin

 

But you get where i'm going. Remove the shoulder pads (WHY.. shoulder pads.. why.. they don't look good at all, they would get int he way, they would be distracting and really think about it, they would be uncomfortable and awkward to wear..) and please, for the love of god let me wear pants.

 

I know its harder, but let me wear pants, cut out he middle grey bit between the purple on his legs and show the pants underneath so i can see the purple robe parts, the 'sides' of the robe that fall past the belt move over the pants, like the numerous 'butt capes' you see on some armour.

 

Don't get me wrong, i'm not totally unhappy with my character's outfit. Aside from the aforementioned PANTS issue. The shoulder pads i have are small and only stick out a little (even less and they would be touching my armour, making it a part of the armour, just a bulky armoured section and i would be completely happy). The bit on the chest, the big square is a little weird but not too bad and it has a cape (Cloak > Cape but its better than nothing)

 

My gloves are cool, it all sort of goes together, though being forced to wear a skirt is sort of annoying, flipping around, leaping and kicking and running in a long skirt isn't as easy as i make it look.

[Dyvid]

Some examples of noticeable Sith:

Darth Talon This is a good example of less is more. Not about a scattely clad Twi'lek but the Sith Tatoos. An armor that reveals Sith Tribal Markings all over the body.

Darth Krayt Here is an example using some of the nastiest beast in the Star Wars Universe a concept for armor sets.

Naga Sadow Basically show casing what ancient Sith wore. It stand to reason this design would still be apart of Sith culture

Darth Maul Cyborg The Sith have a history of destorying their bodies and replacing them with robotic parts. Why not have some armor sets changes a player arm or leg into cybernautics?

 

Some examples of Jedi:

Obi-wan Kenobi Jedi Tunic This is the classic jedi.

Clone Wars Kenobi Though this similar to the armor in the game it doesn't have exaggerated shoulder pieces.

Samurai Lucas said the Samurai was an inspiration for Jedi so why not have some of the look involved with the armor.

Templar Templar are the perfect design of adding armor with monk appearance. I can see Jedi wearing armor under their tunic garb.

[StrykerOne]

The question is, how do you balance that? Arguably Obi-Wan's robes in Episode IV are very 'low level' in appearance. Would you want to see that as an armor set for a high level character? Would you not be concerned that players would see you as low-level? Or do aesthetics trump gameplay for you?

 

I personally don't worry about other people thinking my outfit is plain or low level, I just go with what fits my character. Jedi in particular are generally not that concerned with material goods (and neither are some Sith for that matter)... they tend to dress like martial arts masters, in comfortable robes that allow for maximum flexibility. Some might choose ornate robes but other will stick with simple designs even as Masters, so I would expect to see options for high level players to retain the nice simple robe designs. Likewise, there are many occasions where the last thing a Smuggler or Imperial Agent wants to do is stand out, so simple clothing is very appropriate there too. And of course the heavy armors in Star Wars are traditionally fairly plain and functional... it's fine to have some really fancy ones but also give us the option to look like a walking slab of plasteel.

[Tremont]

Knight PVP... *laughs* Sorry.. did the Armour Designer design for WoW?

 

 

God really where is the STAR WARS in those armours?

 

 

Can you imagine someone running around in the Movies with T H I S ?

 

Its all pretty lame.

 

Sorc looks like a fishman.

 

BH looks like school bus.

 

Agent looks like....well I cant think of anything but a Road Cone.

 

None of it is Star Wars at all, more like some generic low budget Sci-Fi MMO. I think BW outsourced the art creation, and then approved this horrible stuff.

[drosalion]

Obi-wan's robes weren't a single layer of geometry with a texture mapped on top trying to simulate depth. They had real layers to them. Also, much like my avatar to the left there, Obi-wan still had a hairline when his hood was up...

 

hahaha i love the looks of hoods but i hate the pieces with hoods in this game purely because my char's hair disappears and she looks bald

[Lord_Karsk]

Really simpel BioWare. Because there is no real Jedi outfits in this game

my Jedi look like this IMAGE

 

Forced to use trooper armor with strength mods.Because i cant use a real

Jedi outfit like Mace or Kenobi were i have the option of taking the hood down.

[Neopopulas]

Just a little update with another example about what i mean.

 

I'm on Voss right now and i've been wearing my old armour for awhile, its pretty cool looking and if you've been reading the thread i linked it above. Well i just found some new amour and its some of the best i've seen in a long time. I'll show you why below, but i'll also explain.

 

The old stuff i have been wearing for so long is the Prototype Dantooinian Military suit, its not bad, it has a cape and no huge shoulder pads

 

I recently found the ZRS Equipment Flak Jacket MKII, which has nothing to do with the other one and its certainly not 'force user' sounding, but it looks VERy similar, almost identical, but it LOOKS GOOD.

 

Of course its BLUE, so i'm going to lose it eventually and i can't keep it, and thats lame, but let me explain a little more.

 

HERE is what i have been wearing for ages. It looks okay, its pretty good, even if i would LOVE a hood, it does have a cape, so its half way there. The main problem with this is i have to wear a skirt (Agile Judgement Leggings, so Orange, and thus, kinda needed until i find better orange pants, which i haven't seen. So its not too bad at all.

 

HERE is what i have now. Notice the gold/red thing down the front? I saw that and i was amazed, because thats what i WANT, and have wanted for a long time. Because if i could just have pants, it would look like i had a sort of tunic/robe thing over pants instead, its not just a chest pierce, its obviously an undershirt with an armoured piece on the shoulders and down the front, all the way towards my knees.

 

THIS is what it looks like without my hideous skirt on (sexy right?) so.. what i need are some good armoured(ish) Red/gold pants to go with it right? Well, i haven't seen a pair of pants in a long, long time.

 

Maybe i'm just REALLY boring (its possible) but i would happily wear something like THIS even on high level characters

 

SO close..

 

Edit: Sadly Jaesa just got her Assault Robes.. Now she looks like a helicopter.. Sigh..

 

Edit2: Also is it just me or is Voss by far the best planet? The Gormak monster things have GREAT texturing, by far better than most other things, even up close with the lizard-scale things, even the Voss-natives are like that, with the eyes? Amazing. Also the trees are some of the best

Edited April 1, 2012 by Neopopulas

[Harukaze]

Thank God I can rip out the set bonuses and mods, because not a one of these appeals to me. Not one, for any of my characters. Ah well, at least we're not railroaded into wearing this stuff like we'd been in WoW for years.

[RockysRevenge]

Frankly, I think the most powerful, iconic looking armor and robes in the game right now are the level 47 variants.

 

The Jedi Battlelord armor? It looks fantastic! As do the Consular equivalents, like the Robe of Avenging Wrath.

 

There are already fantastic armor models in the game, and the only thing needed to make them appropriate for end game is interesting color variation. Imagine an all black Battlelord set for dark Jedi, and a white and brown one for light Jedi.

 

I don't know if many people addressed head gear or not, but this is also an issue. Agents and smugglers have class appropriate head gear; Jedi and some Sith do not. Jedi don't wear samurai helmets, showgirl head dresses, or Geordi Laforge visors. Sith don't wear feathers in their masks. They could be imagined wearing face masks though, as demonstrated by Revan and Vader. The circlets that are currently available also look good.

 

In general, armor shouldn't be over the top.

[FrostyDroid]

Here is a sensible idea:

 

Post the concept drawings for new gear sets on the forums and collect feedback BEFORE sending them to the modellers to create in-game versions.

[Neopopulas]

Here is a sensible idea:

 

Post the concept drawings for new gear sets on the forums and collect feedback BEFORE sending them to the modellers to create in-game versions.

 

I would actually be very VERY curious to see how things change from concept to models.

[FrostyDroid]

I would actually be very VERY curious to see how things change from concept to models.

 

Im not sure what the policy is on posting links to other game forums, but this is an example of how I think it should be done.

 

 

Concept art: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=283410

 

In game model (not finished): http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=284929

[TheTerminatorXX]

well since everybody have their own vision of the gear to me i love the look on nearly all of the character but since everybody personality is different could bioware made the gear design change system like the one they have on wow? to me it might just fit everybody's prefer gear choice.

[Evil_Santa]

What th....

 

acid is my guess