Sorcerers, seriously what the hell?

[Waagabond]

the other day i saw a sage do over 500k damage in a republic v republic huttball. I've never seen another class do that.

 

I also regularly see sages do over 450k healing.

 

Then there are the hybrids that do 300k damage and 150k healing.

 

I'm a decently geared sawbones and I'm very happy when I break 300k heals.

 

and if raw numbers aren't enough, you're right that the amount of utility they have is absurd. The fact that a sage can force speed through a fire trap and then rescue the ball carrier through that same trap... well all i can say is it looks like a lot of fun.

 

It really is as if they designed consulars first, were determined to make them really awsome, and then got over to scoundrels and were like "wait a second... well if we give them the same stuff it'll just seem silly.. soo.. uuh.. they get..stealth? flashbang? screw it i tired myself out making sage awsome scoundrels will have to be content with funnier dialogue"

 

Completely agree mate.

 

Sorcs and Sages destroys hutball tactics completely.

A team that is coordinated with 2 sages or sorcs, just won, if they play premade.

Often we see atleast 4+ sorcs sages, although there are probably 5 sorcs for every sage.

When its rep vs rep there is seldom more then 3 sages per team, contrary to when you face imp, where it often is 5k sorcs per team. I have not seen a team with less then 3, ever since I hit 50, which was a while ago.

 

They need to remove some of the utility it has and its good though. Again, change the bubble mechanic, maybe remove it all together, and definately remove the force speed or one of the CCs.

 

The problem is not A Sorc or Sage. The problem is that they come in twos or threes.

And no other class can cause such havoc of the same class together, as this class can.

 

Possible an operative or scoundrel in the right hands.

[Kanthric]

I've said it before, If you think Sorc/Sage is the most unbalanced thing you've played against, you clearly didn't play DAOC/Warhammer/Rift at any point.

 

Bright Wizard makes Sorc/Sages look like a joke..

 

Oh look, You're a flag carrier, let me throw playing with fire on you, and kill everyone of your healers at once..

 

Oh look, its a Pyromancer in Rift, let me just one shot you and your healer then fireball down the rest of your team.

 

QFT

 

Bright Wizards, not too distantly followed by Pyros, are the worst examples of class balancing during the 1st year that I've seen in any MMO.

 

The Bright Wizard had the best AoE, 2nd best ST, best overall sustained damage and longest unbreakable-and-can't-be-defended-against stun should all sit on one class is a bit of a mystery.

 

The Pyro was much the same, except they traded the stun for a self-defence buff, so provided you stood in one place your defensibility was far higher than any other DPS class, and your DPS output was...erm...also far higher than any other DPS class.

 

Perhaps unsurprising that both classes were created by the same twisted mind. Note to others; if you play an MMO where Adam Gerschowitz is in charge of class balancing, pick the one that uses fire. You can't go far wrong. :/

 

 

TOR Sorcs are more OP from their utility and from having a more varied box of tricks than other classes, not because their healing or damage is off the charts. Its off the charts when you compare the hybrid DPS/Heal spec to other DPS/Heal or DPS/Tank variants, but that should be relatively easy to fix.

[Shonuff]

Why so many people in online games prefer to faceroll their face off than achieve something with a little bit of skill? Almost every WZ i enter there are like 6-8 inquisitors in one team. I cant even see map cuz everything is purple, so many stupid lightnings. I never get that, why ppl roll classes that are easy and for newbs, just like ret palas in wotlk, just like frost mages now. Please BW nerf sorcerers. Sick damage, like 3 imbollizes, stun, bubble, bubble-blind, healz, sprint, constant channeled slow, knockbacks. I mean it, what the...? I just was in WZ where total number of players were 16, and there were 13 inquisitors... PvP in SWTOR isn't cool anyway, but sorcerers make it even worse. Please do something about it because this is riddicolous. See ya peeps and may the force be with You.

 

So what? Mine had like 8 Marauders/Sentinels.

 

Cry me a river.

 

Oh wait, I forgot, Marauders are too squishy right?

 

Sigh.

[Waagabond]

its funny how these "sorc flaming" threads always get filled with sorcs and sages protecting their class.

 

Eitherway, I think the class overall is fine.

 

It needs a remade of bubble mechanic, the force speed needs to be looked at, also the pull, and also the cc.

 

Most of above is for hutball.

 

They could also simply, make ball carriers immune to any cc, but also immune to any helpful uses like pull, and you are not able to use speed enchanting buffs or heal yourself in anyway.

 

I think a big problem with sorcs and sages is hutball.

 

As a class in themself if we take away hutball: I think healing and damage is fine, its higher then everyone else but, someone needs to have the topspot.

What needs to be fixed is the CC and overall utility of such a strong overall hybrid class.

 

Make bubble a healing tree top tier talent for sages and sorcs, and remove the stun from lightning cage, and reduce the snare effect on sage and sorc channel damage ability by 25% so from 50% to 25%, a slight snare but a snare nonethe less.

[Jamuro]

I agree with you ... tough some of the cc nerfs you suggest are a bit harsh.

Most of the problems with sorcs comes from hutball.

 

Don't allow force speed (or any speed increase), self healing (other than stims), friendly pulls and leaping for the ball carrier.

This would also force a more intense teamplay ... since passing will be needed even more.

 

 

For the part with the topmost damage ... well that depends on the view ... (aoe vs single target damage) but ok that's something else.

 

For the healing ... well most of it comes from force bending missuse and after the fix i expect the healing output to drop by a good chunk.

[MrSteebin]

sorcs really aren't that op. It's one of the strangest nerf calls I've heard in an mmo. In a 1v1, unless they are specced in their balance tree, they will lose to shadows, sentinels, guardians, scoundrels, and vanguards. In a group fight, yeah they have a lot of cc, but a bunch of bounty hunters are more dangerous than sorcs. Their healing is good, but bounty hunter healers are better healers in pvp due to their much higher survivability. They really only shine in huttball.

 

Imo take away the stun after breaking their bubble and don't let the lightning channel instant proc work with aoes. problem solved. Then people will go 31 deep in a tree which, in my opinion, is perfectly balanced.

[MauleVrrshaken]

I'm going to probably post something that some other sorc/sage player has posted on how to deal with sorc/sages.

 

first and foremost keep a player on the sorc/sage don't let them hang back and do their thing that's how sorcs/sages hit 500k+ dmg or healing in wz's is because they're left alone to do so. If no one else is on them then do it yourself with interrupts stuns knockbacks whatever.

 

dealing with their shields, same as above it's nothing to chew threw a sorc/sage shield so do it before they're running through fire in huttball and they'll take more damage in the process.

 

don't let them get in position to pull people they aren't stealthers folks so unless your monitors are turned off you should see them getting into a position do whatever you can to stop em considering the amount of knockbacks and grapples in the game this shouldn't be an issue.

 

speed this is overly simple but considering how long this topic has been going on people still don't understand slows/stuns work wonders to stop force speed since most slows DONT STACK RESOLVE use those.

 

but to reiterate my first point.

 

DONT LEAVE THEM ALONE that is why people get stomped constantly is because you and your team failed to deal with them properly it wasn't their shear numbers you just got straight up outplayed by a class that has quite a bit of utility.

[mamosh]

the other day i saw a sage do over 500k damage in a republic v republic huttball. I've never seen another class do that.

 

I also regularly see sages do over 450k healing.

 

Then there are the hybrids that do 300k damage and 150k healing.

 

I'm a decently geared sawbones and I'm very happy when I break 300k heals.

"

 

the thing is there bubble also counts as heals

[Alphashado]

Threads like this are just going to keep coming. BW jumped the gun and nerfed Operatives way too early in the game and now they are regretting it. They will be more cautious with nerfs in the future. That being said, Sorcs/Sages are gonna be the next to get the nerf bat. Might as well just accept it. At the very least they are going to remove the speed reduction from force lightning.

 

I cannot even play mine anymore. I have too much pride. My grandmother could pwn with a Sorc/Sage. Not only in pvp, but ridiculous dps in pve just makes this class way too easy to play and that in conjunction with all the utlilities they have in pvp just makes them godlike. People are getting sick of consistantly seeing Sorcs at the top of the dmg/kill table in warzones. They are tired of going up against teams with 50%+ Sorcs/Sages.

 

There is a reason there are so many of them. What I find totaly amazing is that so many people are still in denial.

 

The most popular response to threads like this of course is L2P nub.

 

Sorc was my first 50. I spent a couple weeks running HMs and warzones and putzed around in Illum. Even with crap pvp gear It was too easy. Dot Dot Dot Force lightning, instant lightning bolt, stun, Force run, rinse-repeat.

 

I decided to play an Operative. She is lvl 34 on nothing but warzones and class-storyline quests. She had 1k Merc coms, 1k warzone coms, and a champ bag banked by lvl 28. She doesn't have hidden strike or acid blade yet and let me tell you that I have to fight claw tooth and nail without them.

 

But its a challenge and therfore way more fun. And my experiance with this Operative Boldly solidified my earlier inclination that the Sorc was ridiculous easy and OP.

 

Nerf bat is coming Sorcs. Just accept it and move on.

[btmarine]

It seems like it will always fail when they try to balance pve and pvp. I'm kinda hoping they nerf sages into oblivion...then we'll be outnumbered by 30-1 intstead of 15-1. Tough to get a que as it is, idk what they are doing, last Saturday 21 people on Carrick station.

[Amien]

Tbh, if you ask me (Sorc here!) The Healing tree is the most balanced out of the speccs. Tweak Lightening and Darkness and leave Corruption alone!!!!

[Groncho]

Threads like this are just going to keep coming. BW jumped the gun and nerfed Operatives way too early in the game and now they are regretting it. They will be more cautious with nerfs in the future. That being said, Sorcs/Sages are gonna be the next to get the nerf bat. Might as well just accept it. At the very least they are going to remove the speed reduction from force lightning.

 

I cannot even play mine anymore. I have too much pride. My grandmother could pwn with a Sorc/Sage. Not only in pvp, but ridiculous dps in pve just makes this class way too easy to play and that in conjunction with all the utlilities they have in pvp just makes them godlike. People are getting sick of consistantly seeing Sorcs at the top of the dmg/kill table in warzones. They are tired of going up against teams with 50%+ Sorcs/Sages.

 

There is a reason there are so many of them. What I find totaly amazing is that so many people are still in denial.

 

The most popular response to threads like this of course is L2P nub.

 

Sorc was my first 50. I spent a couple weeks running HMs and warzones and putzed around in Illum. Even with crap pvp gear It was too easy. Dot Dot Dot Force lightning, instant lightning bolt, stun, Force run, rinse-repeat.

 

I decided to play an Operative. She is lvl 34 on nothing but warzones and class-storyline quests. She had 1k Merc coms, 1k warzone coms, and a champ bag banked by lvl 28. She doesn't have hidden strike or acid blade yet and let me tell you that I have to fight claw tooth and nail without them.

 

But its a challenge and therfore way more fun. And my experiance with this Operative Boldly solidified my earlier inclination that the Sorc was ridiculous easy and OP.

 

Nerf bat is coming Sorcs. Just accept it and move on.

 

son

ur nerf bat should be renamed as a nerd bat

ppl can play whathever classes they wont

Fact is

there ara better DPS classes than sorcs

there are better Healing classes than sorcs

is just that kids (and this game is full of KIDS and WOWDERPS) wanna roll jedais.....this is SW! lightings, luke, vader, obi wan, etc...

Let em be

I rather fight a monster sorc than a nasty sniper

try to take down or chase a good op/scoundrel healer.....

dayum

Edited March 5, 2012 by Groncho

[Thundartwothree]

son

ur nerf bat should be renamed as a nerd bat

ppl can play whathever classes they wont

Fact is

there ara better DPS classes than sorcs

there are better Healing classes than sorcs

is just that kids (and this game is full of KIDS and WOWDERPS) wanna roll jedais.....this is SW! lightings, luke, vader, obi wan, etc...

Let em be

I rather fight a monster sorc than a nasty sniper

try to take down or chase a good op/scoundrel healer.....

dayum

 

[Morticoccus]

Ha, Everyone complains about sorc. If you went against a team of 5 bh's trust me you would be crying here even more.

 

Nah, they are about as annoying.

BH/Sorc mix is where the real pain is. They can do literally EVERYTHING, except for stealth.

 

But that is still an issue of superior tactics.

[Surgin]

 

[CaptainInsano]

Sorcerers are just better healers than the other 2 classes, end of discussion. Better resource pool, better heals, better utility. It's clear they were designed as healers first and foremost then Merc and Operative were given some token healing at the end when the players demanded more healing classes. Their resource pools and weird movepools support this.

[Morticoccus]

Sorcerers are just better healers than the other 2 classes, end of discussion. Better resource pool, better heals, better utility. It's clear they were designed as healers first and foremost then Merc and Operative were given some token healing at the end when the players demanded more healing classes. Their resource pools and weird movepools support this.

 

And Bioware just added the insanely good DPS applications as an afterthought, makes sense.

 

I mean, why even design any other classes, inquisitors can already DPS, heal and tank.

 

Clearly everyone should stop complaining and be happy that Bioware gave in to their demands and let us play other classes.

[joramil]

I'm tired of reading "but 1v1, they're squishy". I think this forum is about warzone balance and the sheer amount of utility they have. Sorcerers (range DPS) don't need a sprint that 150%. It needs to be about 70-80% MAX, this goes for Assassins/Shadows, too. If you can run past not 1 but 2 hazards with a single cooldown while other classes can't, that's just dumb.

 

I play a Merc, and it's a lot of fun on Alderaan and Voidstar. I can put out some punishment, take some. I feel on either of those two maps, that a Sorc isn't 1000x better than me. I can contribute to the objective of the map. Huttball, however, is Forceball. I can't leap, I can't interrupt (save for Stun or Knockback). I watch Sorcs/Assassins grab the ball, sprint away, and be damn near out of range by the time I can even target them (thx awesome tab/click targetting). Most of the newbs in here will be like "well, you got things to counter force speed", to which I respond, no we don't.

 

Electro-dart is 1 min CD, Force speed is half of that. Knockbacks aren't based on a mutual understanding of where the server assumes the toon is, but rather where the recipient of the CC is. Let me explain, if I knock someone back, it doesn't knock them back based upon what I see on my screen, it's where the other person's client sees them at. So it is impossible to effectively use ANY knockback, because half the time I end up helping them or not knocking them in the intended direction. I've literally watched people on my left get knocked back as if they were standing to my right. It's just a terrible model that is supposed to keep server requests down, but doesn't really work here. Not even gonna talk about the "insta-cast, 2 min CC", it always gets broken by some idiot or they use their break ability. Half the time I use Stun or ranged CC the client still moved them the full length of their sprint due to client lag. I play on a PST server, and live in California. My average ping is < 100ms, usually less than 50ms.

 

And this is a new one I haven't really heard anyone talk about yet, but bubbles should work like this:

 

- Apply bubble, bubble has 30-45 sec duration

- After bubble breaks due to dmg, apply 15-30 sec debuff before new bubble can be applied.

- Bubbles SHOULD NOT PREVENT KNOCKBACKS (The Sorc bubble currently does and it's infuriating!) You can even take the damage off of my knockback if that'll fix it, it's not a huge loss.

- Bubbles should only reduce incoming damage, not completely ignore it (it could still absorb the same amount, but tired of that < 1k HP guy getting a bubble and then getting full heals, no other healer can pull off that kind of save)

- Bubbles should be a healer only thing. Buff the DPS healers to Merc levels if that's how you wanna roll, but any DPS class able to put a full absorb on an ally is ridiculous.

 

Force speed should work like this:

- Grants + 70% based upon current speed (so if you're snared, that effect is subtracted to create the cumulative speed). It should NOT just put you at 150% regardless. If you're in combat, subtract that amount. If you're snared, subtract that mount. I'm tired of these ******es just running away like it's nothing. NO SKILL

- Roots should completly negate Force Speed. Sorry, but that's a really solid counter.

- Extend the cooldown from 30 seconds for the LOVE OF GOD. Should be 2 minutes minimum, I'll settle for 90 seconds.

 

I guess my biggest beef is that sorcerer speed is too fast, providing them with too much utility for Huttball. It's basically a big middle finger to every other class. Warriors have it pretty good, too, but not as good as a Sorc/Assassin. Dmg/healing wise, they might have a little too much healing output, but dmg I think if anything they're lower. I'm a pyrotech and unless I'm on defense the whole time, a Sorcerer will ever out-do me.

 

The last point I'm going to talk about is the sorcerer pull ability. I think this is a very cool ability and makes a lot of sense. It requires player coordination and execution, and has a counter. Things that require 2 or more people to work together (passing, force pull, guarding, etc.) make for a more dynamic PvP experience that actually requires teamwork. The sheer utility of a Sorc makes them too formidable of a one-man show.

[skarlson]

Sorcerer's are actually quite weak. What good is having all the utility in the world when it only delays your death. If you get focused by any dps class you will die, you simply cannot match their dps. If you are left alone to aoe then of course you will eventually cause some havoc. They need a buff to their pathetic single target damage however.

[nschlan]

Sorcerers are just better healers than the other 2 classes, end of discussion. Better resource pool, better heals, better utility. It's clear they were designed as healers first and foremost then Merc and Operative were given some token healing at the end when the players demanded more healing classes. Their resource pools and weird movepools support this.

 

What is...I don't even...the other heal specs are just as good, and even better in some respects.

[Morticoccus]

What is...I don't even...the other heal specs are just as good, and even better in some respects.

 

Yup, but sorcerers have more utility.

[shazariahl]

Completely agree mate.

 

Sorcs and Sages destroys hutball tactics completely.

A team that is coordinated with 2 sages or sorcs, just won, if they play premade.

Often we see atleast 4+ sorcs sages, although there are probably 5 sorcs for every sage.

When its rep vs rep there is seldom more then 3 sages per team, contrary to when you face imp, where it often is 5k sorcs per team. I have not seen a team with less then 3, ever since I hit 50, which was a while ago.

 

They need to remove some of the utility it has and its good though. Again, change the bubble mechanic, maybe remove it all together, and definately remove the force speed or one of the CCs.

 

The problem is not A Sorc or Sage. The problem is that they come in twos or threes.

And no other class can cause such havoc of the same class together, as this class can.

 

Possible an operative or scoundrel in the right hands.

 

I must be the only person in the world who sees Jugs and assassins as the best huttball carriers. Everyone keeps saying sorcs, but they litterally die in like 3 seconds with the ball. Everyone focuses them, they can't heal themselves, their bubble lasts like 1 second, and that's it. Juggs just leap/intercede their way across the field and in about 20 seconds they can go from grabbing the ball in mid, to scoring a goal. Combined with having a ton of hp usually, they are hands down the best ball carriers, IMO. Assassins are next, especially tank ones. They have nearly all the same stuns as sorcs, including insta WW+stun available, they have speed, they have an immunity, and way more armor.

 

Sorcs just seem weak, unless they're healing or being guarded.

[Scav]

Same thing as many bright wizards in WAR, clerics in Aion, druids (previously warlock) in WoW. A class with multiple utilities and the shallowest learning curve will be the most popular.

 

Ya clearly never saw 400 play his BW.

[Hamatula]

I must be the only person in the world who sees Jugs and assassins as the best huttball carriers. Everyone keeps saying sorcs, but they litterally die in like 3 seconds with the ball. Everyone focuses them, they can't heal themselves, their bubble lasts like 1 second, and that's it. Juggs just leap/intercede their way across the field and in about 20 seconds they can go from grabbing the ball in mid, to scoring a goal. Combined with having a ton of hp usually, they are hands down the best ball carriers, IMO. Assassins are next, especially tank ones. They have nearly all the same stuns as sorcs, including insta WW+stun available, they have speed, they have an immunity, and way more armor.

 

Sorcs just seem weak, unless they're healing or being guarded.

 

anyone who says sorc are good ball carriers better put the glue cap back on... a Sorc and a jugg working together can be effective.

[GrandMike]

Sorcerer's are actually quite weak. What good is having all the utility in the world when it only delays your death. If you get focused by any dps class you will die, you simply cannot match their dps. If you are left alone to aoe then of course you will eventually cause some havoc. They need a buff to their pathetic single target damage however.

 

This needs to be repeated for terribads that QQ against sorc