Sorcerers, seriously what the hell?

[GrandMike]

Roots and Slows are not affected by resolve, don't know if on purpose or not.

 

Now you know something about the game too.

 

Wow, really? Like, really really?

 

Ive been using KB with root for...past 2 months? Yah, i dont know anything rofl

 

Think im a bit more into what sage/sorc can or cant do, and what works and what doesnt.

 

Yah, i ran full balance for a while, and its much better 1vs1 than hybrid build, but its a group game and i succumbed to group needs and more usefulness in groups (pve and pvp), because then i would actually have root that is not affected by resolve.

 

Just ignore the ranter, he doesnt know much, he is just funny to watch

Edited February 27, 2012 by GrandMike

[biowareftw]

you're talking about a scenario where 5 sorcerers are constantly crowd controlling you, in perfect sync.

 

Do you need help for this? no kidding. Do you think you can take on 5 mercs, or 5 snipers?

 

or 5 of any class at once?

 

2 carnage specced marauders if they coordinate properly can have someone crowd controlled with immobilises and grip for 30 seconds, does this mean that they should be nerfed because such incredible coordination is possible?

 

Yes it takes 5 sorcerers/sages to instant mes you, that turns into a short stun on dmg (enough to get dots up/proc isntant nukes), then stun you (better have a trinket up). Then have an aoe root (on charge), because full resolve doesn't work against roots.

 

Now forcesprint, refresh dots if needed, spam away till proc. Now add in LOS pole humping. I could drag out a fight vs a marauder/sent on a sage/sorc hybrid spec for a good minute. That is IF they have and use all their cooldowns. If not, they can be beat.

 

Carnage specced marauders? HAHAHAAHAAHAHAAAAHHA. Please just stop now. Noone with half a brain plays that garbage spec and if they do they are so freakin easy to kill it isn't funny.

 

Bad sages/sorc who don't even know their knockback roots on full resolve, and "carnage marauders" that noone even plays outside horrible pve/rp realms where people S key and click abilities.

 

Please just stop. You don't know about your own class. Don't talk about other classes based on your horrible server where people have no idea what they are doing.

[biowareftw]

Wow, really? Like, really really?

 

Ive been using KB with root for...past 2 months? Yah, i dont know anything rofl

 

Think im a bit more into what sage/sorc can or cant do, and what works and what doesnt.

 

Yah, i ran full balance for a while, and its much better 1vs1 than hybrid build, but its a group game and i succumbed to group needs and more usefulness in groups (pve and pvp).

 

Translation of Grandmikes post.

 

I was totally wrong. I have no idea what I am talking about. I claimed root doesn't work on full resolve (it does).

 

Blah blah. I am smart and spec the "op spec" to be a better player. Blah blah. Has nothing to do with the hybrid spec also outdamaging pure balance/madness spec, blah blah.

 

Full balance/madness is better one on one (LOL...), even though it does slightly dmg then hybrid spec, has less burst, has less force efficiency (can heal self like a champ as hybrid).

 

But yeah I am pro brah! I belittle people who have played this class and says the hybrid spec needs to go, blah blah, even when they say the balance/madness spec is fine and don't want to nerf my class to the ground like we got ops/scoundrels nerfed.

 

Blah blah, balance/madness is awesome and better one on one, but I wouldn't accept this nerf to the hybrid spec....because....blah blah learn to play.

 

Gnight Mike. Seek help.

[Telaan]

Yes it takes 5 sorcerers/sages to instant mes you, that turns into a short stun on dmg (enough to get dots up/proc isntant nukes), then stun you (better have a trinket up). Then have an aoe root (on charge), because full resolve doesn't work against roots.

 

Now forcesprint, refresh dots if needed, spam away till proc. Now add in LOS pole humping. I could drag out a fight vs a marauder/sent on a sage/sorc hybrid spec for a good minute. That is IF they have and use all their cooldowns. If not, they can be beat.

 

Carnage specced marauders? HAHAHAAHAAHAHAAAAHHA. Please just stop now. Noone with half a brain plays that garbage spec and if they do they are so freakin easy to kill it isn't funny.

 

Bad sages/sorc who don't even know their knockback roots on full resolve, and "carnage marauders" that noone even plays outside horrible pve/rp realms where people S key and click abilities.

 

Please just stop. You don't know about your own class. Don't talk about other classes based on your horrible server where people have no idea what they are doing.

 

He obviously mentioned carnage marauders for the very reason that they're not greatest.....and he wasn't the subtle about it either. Using nuke and sorc/sage in the same sentence shows how very little you know and how badly you exaggerate. I can nuke faster in focus spec than sorc/sage can in any spec.

[GrandMike]

Translation of Grandmikes post.

 

I was totally wrong. I have no idea what I am talking about. I claimed root doesn't work on full resolve (it does).

 

Blah blah. I am smart and spec the "op spec" to be a better player. Blah blah. Has nothing to do with the hybrid spec also outdamaging pure balance/madness spec, blah blah.

 

Full balance/madness is better one on one (LOL...), even though it does slightly dmg then hybrid spec, has less burst, has less force efficiency (can heal self like a champ as hybrid).

 

But yeah I am pro brah! I belittle people who have played this class and says the hybrid spec needs to go, blah blah, even when they say the balance/madness spec is fine and don't want to nerf my class to the ground like we got ops/scoundrels nerfed.

 

Blah blah, balance/madness is awesome and better one on one, but I wouldn't accept this nerf to the hybrid spec....because....blah blah learn to play.

 

Gnight Mike. Seek help.

 

This kind of posts make my day, thats why i keep this up.

[Telaan]

Translation of Grandmikes post.

 

I was totally wrong. I have no idea what I am talking about. I claimed root doesn't work on full resolve (it does).

 

Blah blah. I am smart and spec the "op spec" to be a better player. Blah blah. Has nothing to do with the hybrid spec also outdamaging pure balance/madness spec, blah blah.

 

Full balance/madness is better one on one (LOL...), even though it does slightly dmg then hybrid spec, has less burst, has less force efficiency (can heal self like a champ as hybrid).

 

But yeah I am pro brah! I belittle people who have played this class and says the hybrid spec needs to go, blah blah, even when they say the balance/madness spec is fine and don't want to nerf my class to the ground like we got ops/scoundrels nerfed.

 

Blah blah, balance/madness is awesome and better one on one, but I wouldn't accept this nerf to the hybrid spec....because....blah blah learn to play.

 

Gnight Mike. Seek help.

 

But yeah I am pro brah! I belittle people

 

Yup, that sums up almost every post you've made dude.

[GuardianDW]

SI classes (both Sorcerer/Couciler, and Assassin/Sage) are quite overpowered.

 

* Bubble, absorbing seeming north of 4K dmg, replaceable every 20sec. Combined with the other abilities, a 1v1 fight vs a SI/JC requires you to output at least 24K HP of dmg to kill them (minimum 16K hp basic health of the SI/JC, plus two bubbles as their other abilities guarantee the fight will go longer than 20sec). And that figure is probably low by 2-4K HP, as a Battlemaster or Rakatta geared SI/JC will probably have closer to 18-20K HP; *and* this figure assume they won't heal at all during the fight. Further, this is talentable to PBAOE stun for a second when broken.

* Point-Blank AOE knockback, every 20sec. Modifiable with a auto-root after the knockback. Melee is completely neutralized by this, and Operatives/Scoundrels, and some flavors of BH/TR are heavily marginalized by it. Assassins/Sages would be neutralized by it but they have all the SI/JC advantages to counter with.

* Speed. Every thirty seconds. Combined with bubble, hazards are meaningless to SI/JC classes. Worse, speed auto-breaks snare effects; speed is one of their "I'll kill you in a moment" abilities. Any melee worth anything snares any target they engage within the first three seconds. Speed completely ignores snare, allowing the SI/JC to reset the encounter back to max range.

* Lightning/TK attack that auto-snares and is easily talented to be endlessly spamable - a base attack, *all* SI/JCs get this, even the stealth/tank variants in the form of Assassin/Sage.

* Ranged stun - many classes get this.

* Ranged 10sec CC - modifiable by talents to be a 1sec cast, and further modifiable to stun the target for two seconds if it breaks early.

* Ranged slow

* Healing

* DOTs - some of which are insta-cast, and can be talented to heal the SI/JC on crit ticks, which typically means every third tick, at least, will be throwing healing back.

 

Assassin flavors of SI/JC receive several additional stuns. Caster flavors of SI/JC receive AOE.

 

Quite frankly, anyone arguing they're not overpowered is insane, or lying. Period. Their abilities make it impossible for any melee to stay on them to actually do damage. The array of SI/JC abilities *might*, *MIGHT*, make sense if either of two things were true in SWTOR that were true in *OTHER* MMORPGSs that had ranged vs melee battles.

 

Those things were that, typically, melee had higher dps output to counter the time they spent not in melee range (meaning they did more damage when they were in range to make up for the time they spent not dpsing), and that typically ranged classes were squishier and easier to kill than melee classes when applying damage.

 

SI/JC classes are NOT squishier compared to other classes. SWTOR has uniform hitpoint levels across all classes. The difference between a Rakatta geared Tank Juggernaut and a Rakatta geared DPS Sorcerer is less than 4K HP; between DPS variants of both they're almost identical in HP. The tank will have about 20 to 25% more armor mitigation (meaning, for every 100 damage, the tank takes usually 45-50 of it vs the sorcerer taking 70-75 of it). The tank compensates for this by having no more than a third of the damage output of non-tank classes, probably actually more like a *fourth* of the damage output.

 

SWTOR melee also do *NOT* have increased dps. If you go in raids, most people tend to tip their hats to Snipers and Marauders as the best dps to bring, and the marauders only get the nod because of their raid-wide Bloodthirst buff. I know of no raids or guilds begging for dps melee classes to join up.

 

So having removed the 'traditional' MMORPG melee advantage of increased DPS burst and ranged disadvantage of extra squishiness, it makes absolutely no sense for SI/JC to be designed as they've been except that ex-Mythic devs were involved, who have shown in their prior games to favor ranged.

 

 

Let's walk through a theorycraft encounter that closely emulates what's happening thousands of times per day on the servers when a SI/JC fights a melee

 

* DPS Sorcerer and DPS Juggernaut see each other at the same time, range 40m

* Sorc throws Lightning at 35m with their self-buff cooldown, ticking for about 1K per, and autosnaring.

* Leap's range is 30m, so two to three ticks hit before the Jug can leap. Jug down 2K HP.

* Jug lands doing 1K-1.5K from the Leap attack, and if he's spamming gets Smash off for 3K (Rage spec). Sorc triggers PBAOE Knockback. Jug is now 10m away (6m from melee range of 4m) and down 3K HP since Knockback also does damage. We'll assume the Sorc isn't talented for root but that really just makes this whole thing worse. Sorc is down nothing but a popped bubble so far.

* Sorc Slows the Jug and kites back out to 32-33m, taking probably about 4sec tops to do this. He tosses insta-DOT while doing it, since it's instant and takes no time. Jug can throw his saber, which will do about half what the dot will over its duration.

* At this point, I don't have exact math on speed of characters, but countless encounters indicate it's about 10-12 seconds minimum to reclose on the Sorc as he spams lightning. In that 12sec, Sorc spams four full lightning cycles, each for a minimum of 3Kdmg per. Counting the dot (assuming it wasn't refreshed somewhere during the Lightning spam) and the saber throw, Jug is now back in melee range and down 2K (initial) + 1K (knockback) +1K (dot) + 12K (Lightning) 16Kdmg, or about 25% HP remaining. Sorc is down 1K and about 8-10sec until rebubble.

 

See the pattern? Certain variations really don't alter the outcome here at all. If the Jug saves leap for after the knockback, he takes the 12K dmg initially, is knockedback, releaps, and is still down at 25%. If the Jug leaps and chooses to Force Choke, he only delays the knockback without actually seriously threatening the Sorc since Choke will do less than 3K dmg for the three second duration of choke. If the Jug triggers his Saber Ward CD, it turns a 25% HP remaining to something like maybe 35% HP remaining.

 

Further theorycraft variations. Rage Jug, so he has Obliterate, right? 10m Leap. So he takes 3 Lightning cycles, not four. Upon landing, the Sorc can choose to stun, or speed, to break contact again. And we haven't even gotten into the Sorc's self heal. At any point, the Sorc can choose to self-heal, with or without breaking from melee range. Ah, but Jug has interrupt. Right, so the Jug interrupts a heal (12sec cooldown to reinterrupt), costing the Sorc a GCD. The sorc simply casts his OTHER heal while the first one is locked out, and four seconds later can go back to the interrupted heal if he chooses. At the 20sec mark in this encounter, the Sorc rebubbles, and has plenty of time before it drops to get off two or three heals, minimum, if he actually even needs them. And the sorc can choose to Whirlwind at any point and reset the engagment back to max range and get off 3-4 more heals before the CC breaks.

 

The only Sorcs that die to melee are skilled melee beating *dumb* Sorcs. Average players on both side, melee wins only on a freak occurrence.

 

And the above theorycraft is postulated in a barren open field. It doesn't include the obstacles and terrain that exist in warzones. In huttball, most engagements will occur either near a hazard or on a catwalk; meaning the Knockback puts the melee either dead or unable to reengage. The sorc then either goes on with his scoring maneuver or stands on the edge of the catwalk and finishes the melee off, as he choose. In Alderaan/Voidstar, the sorc can use pillars and platform edges to buy time to heal and maneuver while the melee moves around the obstacles to reengage.

 

It's ridiculous, and insulting. SI/JC are extremely overpowered.

 

Suggested changes to balance SI/JC:

 

* Bubble either needs to be AT LEAST halved in absorb amount, or the rebubble period should be AT LEAST doubled.

* Speed needs to be AT LEAST one minute (not 30 sec) cooldown, and should not auto-break snare. Allow speed to apply its movement increase rate, but calculated from the snared base, not the unsnared base (as it does now)

* PBAOE Knockback needs to be AT LEAST one minute cooldown, and should not be allowed to auto-root.

* Lightning's auto-snare needs to be flatly removed, period. If snare remains, cost to cast should be at least tripled, OR remove talents that enable it to be endlessly spammable.

* Healing should be removed to be a Sorcerer/Councilor item only (no Assassins/Sages). Heals should be locked out for ten seconds following the cast of any offensive spell other than a dot.

* Assassin/Sage triggerable ability that renders them immune to CC should break instantly if speed is active or triggered. Speed + Bubble + at-will CC Immune allows Assassins/Sages to score effortlessly from beyond the last, even next to last, huttball hazard.

 

I PVP alot, and I'm also a member of a server-first raid guild. Some of these changes will impact our raids. Too-bad; we'll find ways around bubbles that absorb half as much, around dps sorcerers that can't just frantically tap their lightning key over and over in a raid, etc...

 

Finally, should no changes be made, I'll wait. It's fine. Even the ex-Mythic devs will have to admit reality when the devs deliver on the ranked Warzones they're promising, and all the winning teams are 6+ SI/JC.

 

I promise you, in a ranked/ladder WZ situation, you'll *never* see an all SW/JK team anywhere near the top. You'll see only an *incredibly* few number of 8 massively skilled players fielding a 8 BH/TR or 8 IA/SM teams near the top. You'll see *LOTS* of SI/JC teams dominating at the top. If that doesn't illustrate the problems, then there's no hope and everyone should reroll the Flavor Of The Game class, because it'll sure as heck not be a FOTM at that point.

 

SI/JC flames will recommence at this point in the thread. Enjoy.

[sylorien]

(...)Blah blah, balance/madness is awesome and better one on one, but I wouldn't accept this nerf to the hybrid spec....because....blah blah learn to play.

 

Gnight Mike. Seek help.

 

You guys are suffering from a common internet malady. You are agreeing with each other, while disagreeing with each other, because you are afraid your epeen will shrink if you admit it publicly.

 

It will.

[GrandMike]

You guys are suffering from a common internet malady. You are agreeing with each other, while disagreeing with each other, because you are afraid your epeen will shrink if you admit it publicly.

 

It will.

 

Nerf will never happen. If they reduce something they will have to buff something else to keep class viable.

 

So already balanced class will become more powerful in some areas and pwn you even more

 

So yah, take away already bad heals and gief damage boost

 

So yah, take away sustained damage+cc and gief burst

 

Gladly.

 

Not to mention ranter plays a class that mops the floor with any type of sorc which makes it all more funny Its telling that most vocal for "sorc/sage nerf" are those playing a class that obliterates that same sorc/sage

 

In fact they admit they dont have a problem with sorc/sage and still yell "nerf" rofl Its kinda "thowing off the scent" because they know where nerf bat will hit next

Edited February 27, 2012 by GrandMike

[biowareftw]

Nerf will never happen. If they reduce something they will have to buff something else to keep class viable.

 

So already balanced class will become more powerful in some areas and pwn you even more

 

Yes. They need to buff you/compensate...

 

1. When you said the balance/madness spec was better one on one (you just don't aoe root people you aren't even targeting and completely screw over all melee more and more with each additional hybrid spec sorc/sage).

 

2. When this game in beta was balanced around all specs going 31 points deep and all other hybrid specs that were viable have gotten nerfed (shadow sage) in live.

 

3. When full balance/madness would still be the best ranged class in the game, when the game already favors ranged.

 

Why? Cus Mike said so. A sorc/sage who didn't even realize his knockback will root on full resolve.

[GrandMike]

Yes. They need to buff you/compensate...

 

1. When you said the balance/madness spec was better one on one (you just don't aoe root people you aren't even targeting and completely screw over all melee more and more with each additional hybrid spec sorc/sage).

 

2. When this game in beta was balanced around all specs going 31 points deep and all other hybrid specs that were viable have gotten nerfed (shadow sage) in live.

 

3. When full balance/madness would still be the best ranged class in the game, when the game already favors ranged.

 

Why? Cus Mike said so. A sorc/sage who didn't even realize his knockback will root on full resolve.

 

BS, half of the classes are best as hybrids

 

What, do you have hybrid envy or smthing lol

Edited February 27, 2012 by GrandMike

[biowareftw]

SI classes (both Sorcerer/Couciler, and Assassin/Sage) are quite overpowered.

 

* Bubble, absorbing seeming north of 4K dmg, replaceable every 20sec. Combined with the other abilities, a 1v1 fight vs a SI/JC requires you to output at least 24K HP of dmg to kill them (minimum 16K hp basic health of the SI/JC, plus two bubbles as their other abilities guarantee the fight will go longer than 20sec). And that figure is probably low by 2-4K HP, as a Battlemaster or Rakatta geared SI/JC will probably have closer to 18-20K HP; *and* this figure assume they won't heal at all during the fight. Further, this is talentable to PBAOE stun for a second when broken.

* Point-Blank AOE knockback, every 20sec. Modifiable with a auto-root after the knockback. Melee is completely neutralized by this, and Operatives/Scoundrels, and some flavors of BH/TR are heavily marginalized by it. Assassins/Sages would be neutralized by it but they have all the SI/JC advantages to counter with.

* Speed. Every thirty seconds. Combined with bubble, hazards are meaningless to SI/JC classes. Worse, speed auto-breaks snare effects; speed is one of their "I'll kill you in a moment" abilities. Any melee worth anything snares any target they engage within the first three seconds. Speed completely ignores snare, allowing the SI/JC to reset the encounter back to max range.

* Lightning/TK attack that auto-snares and is easily talented to be endlessly spamable - a base attack, *all* SI/JCs get this, even the stealth/tank variants in the form of Assassin/Sage.

* Ranged stun - many classes get this.

* Ranged 10sec CC - modifiable by talents to be a 1sec cast, and further modifiable to stun the target for two seconds if it breaks early.

* Ranged slow

* Healing

* DOTs - some of which are insta-cast, and can be talented to heal the SI/JC on crit ticks, which typically means every third tick, at least, will be throwing healing back.

 

Assassin flavors of SI/JC receive several additional stuns. Caster flavors of SI/JC receive AOE.

 

Quite frankly, anyone arguing they're not overpowered is insane, or lying. Period. Their abilities make it impossible for any melee to stay on them to actually do damage. The array of SI/JC abilities *might*, *MIGHT*, make sense if either of two things were true in SWTOR that were true in *OTHER* MMORPGSs that had ranged vs melee battles.

 

Those things were that, typically, melee had higher dps output to counter the time they spent not in melee range (meaning they did more damage when they were in range to make up for the time they spent not dpsing), and that typically ranged classes were squishier and easier to kill than melee classes when applying damage.

 

SI/JC classes are NOT squishier compared to other classes. SWTOR has uniform hitpoint levels across all classes. The difference between a Rakatta geared Tank Juggernaut and a Rakatta geared DPS Sorcerer is less than 4K HP; between DPS variants of both they're almost identical in HP. The tank will have about 20 to 25% more armor mitigation (meaning, for every 100 damage, the tank takes usually 45-50 of it vs the sorcerer taking 70-75 of it). The tank compensates for this by having no more than a third of the damage output of non-tank classes, probably actually more like a *fourth* of the damage output.

 

SWTOR melee also do *NOT* have increased dps. If you go in raids, most people tend to tip their hats to Snipers and Marauders as the best dps to bring, and the marauders only get the nod because of their raid-wide Bloodthirst buff. I know of no raids or guilds begging for dps melee classes to join up.

 

So having removed the 'traditional' MMORPG melee advantage of increased DPS burst and ranged disadvantage of extra squishiness, it makes absolutely no sense for SI/JC to be designed as they've been except that ex-Mythic devs were involved, who have shown in their prior games to favor ranged.

 

 

Let's walk through a theorycraft encounter that closely emulates what's happening thousands of times per day on the servers when a SI/JC fights a melee

 

* DPS Sorcerer and DPS Juggernaut see each other at the same time, range 40m

* Sorc throws Lightning at 35m with their self-buff cooldown, ticking for about 1K per, and autosnaring.

* Leap's range is 30m, so two to three ticks hit before the Jug can leap. Jug down 2K HP.

* Jug lands doing 1K-1.5K from the Leap attack, and if he's spamming gets Smash off for 3K (Rage spec). Sorc triggers PBAOE Knockback. Jug is now 10m away (6m from melee range of 4m) and down 3K HP since Knockback also does damage. We'll assume the Sorc isn't talented for root but that really just makes this whole thing worse. Sorc is down nothing but a popped bubble so far.

* Sorc Slows the Jug and kites back out to 32-33m, taking probably about 4sec tops to do this. He tosses insta-DOT while doing it, since it's instant and takes no time. Jug can throw his saber, which will do about half what the dot will over its duration.

* At this point, I don't have exact math on speed of characters, but countless encounters indicate it's about 10-12 seconds minimum to reclose on the Sorc as he spams lightning. In that 12sec, Sorc spams four full lightning cycles, each for a minimum of 3Kdmg per. Counting the dot (assuming it wasn't refreshed somewhere during the Lightning spam) and the saber throw, Jug is now back in melee range and down 2K (initial) + 1K (knockback) +1K (dot) + 12K (Lightning) 16Kdmg, or about 25% HP remaining. Sorc is down 1K and about 8-10sec until rebubble.

 

See the pattern? Certain variations really don't alter the outcome here at all. If the Jug saves leap for after the knockback, he takes the 12K dmg initially, is knockedback, releaps, and is still down at 25%. If the Jug leaps and chooses to Force Choke, he only delays the knockback without actually seriously threatening the Sorc since Choke will do less than 3K dmg for the three second duration of choke. If the Jug triggers his Saber Ward CD, it turns a 25% HP remaining to something like maybe 35% HP remaining.

 

Further theorycraft variations. Rage Jug, so he has Obliterate, right? 10m Leap. So he takes 3 Lightning cycles, not four. Upon landing, the Sorc can choose to stun, or speed, to break contact again. And we haven't even gotten into the Sorc's self heal. At any point, the Sorc can choose to self-heal, with or without breaking from melee range. Ah, but Jug has interrupt. Right, so the Jug interrupts a heal (12sec cooldown to reinterrupt), costing the Sorc a GCD. The sorc simply casts his OTHER heal while the first one is locked out, and four seconds later can go back to the interrupted heal if he chooses. At the 20sec mark in this encounter, the Sorc rebubbles, and has plenty of time before it drops to get off two or three heals, minimum, if he actually even needs them. And the sorc can choose to Whirlwind at any point and reset the engagment back to max range and get off 3-4 more heals before the CC breaks.

 

The only Sorcs that die to melee are skilled melee beating *dumb* Sorcs. Average players on both side, melee wins only on a freak occurrence.

 

And the above theorycraft is postulated in a barren open field. It doesn't include the obstacles and terrain that exist in warzones. In huttball, most engagements will occur either near a hazard or on a catwalk; meaning the Knockback puts the melee either dead or unable to reengage. The sorc then either goes on with his scoring maneuver or stands on the edge of the catwalk and finishes the melee off, as he choose. In Alderaan/Voidstar, the sorc can use pillars and platform edges to buy time to heal and maneuver while the melee moves around the obstacles to reengage.

 

It's ridiculous, and insulting. SI/JC are extremely overpowered.

 

Suggested changes to balance SI/JC:

 

* Bubble either needs to be AT LEAST halved in absorb amount, or the rebubble period should be AT LEAST doubled.

* Speed needs to be AT LEAST one minute (not 30 sec) cooldown, and should not auto-break snare. Allow speed to apply its movement increase rate, but calculated from the snared base, not the unsnared base (as it does now)

* PBAOE Knockback needs to be AT LEAST one minute cooldown, and should not be allowed to auto-root.

* Lightning's auto-snare needs to be flatly removed, period. If snare remains, cost to cast should be at least tripled, OR remove talents that enable it to be endlessly spammable.

* Healing should be removed to be a Sorcerer/Councilor item only (no Assassins/Sages). Heals should be locked out for ten seconds following the cast of any offensive spell other than a dot.

* Assassin/Sage triggerable ability that renders them immune to CC should break instantly if speed is active or triggered. Speed + Bubble + at-will CC Immune allows Assassins/Sages to score effortlessly from beyond the last, even next to last, huttball hazard.

 

I PVP alot, and I'm also a member of a server-first raid guild. Some of these changes will impact our raids. Too-bad; we'll find ways around bubbles that absorb half as much, around dps sorcerers that can't just frantically tap their lightning key over and over in a raid, etc...

 

Finally, should no changes be made, I'll wait. It's fine. Even the ex-Mythic devs will have to admit reality when the devs deliver on the ranked Warzones they're promising, and all the winning teams are 6+ SI/JC.

 

I promise you, in a ranked/ladder WZ situation, you'll *never* see an all SW/JK team anywhere near the top. You'll see only an *incredibly* few number of 8 massively skilled players fielding a 8 BH/TR or 8 IA/SM teams near the top. You'll see *LOTS* of SI/JC teams dominating at the top. If that doesn't illustrate the problems, then there's no hope and everyone should reroll the Flavor Of The Game class, because it'll sure as heck not be a FOTM at that point.

 

SI/JC flames will recommence at this point in the thread. Enjoy.

 

Too logical. Can't be argued by simpletons that don't even know their knockback roots players during full resolve. Their only response? Learn to play.

 

Our response. Everyone is rerolling this class. Look at any high pop pvp server 10-49 bracket as a "metric". Their response. L2p.

[GrandMike]

Too logical. Can't be argued by simpletons that don't even know their knockback roots players during full resolve. Their only response? Learn to play.

 

Our response. Everyone is rerolling this class. Look at any high pop pvp server 10-49 bracket as a "metric". Their response. L2p.

 

Too wrong to be even worth spending the time correcting all mistakes lol.

 

But everyone who knows something of the game will notice them quite fast

 

You know that repeating that KB roots through full resolve wont make it true, right?

 

I'm also a member of a server-first raid guild.

 

Stick to raids, seems that PvP is not really your thing, you dont have a clue lol

Edited February 27, 2012 by GrandMike

[biowareftw]

BS, half of the classes are best as hybrids

 

Yup let's name them!

 

Sentinels/Marauders. Oh wait. They have one good pvp spec.

 

Commando/Merc. Uh no.

 

Assassin/shadow. All respecced to tanks after the surge nerf. Hybrid spec was nerfed depsite noone complaining about it.

 

Gunslinger/sniper? Hmm not this one either.

 

Guardians/Jugs? Nope. Tank and focus/rage specs are horrible until very deep in the tree.

 

Scoundrel/operative. Class is useless now. Good for dotting and preventing caps and killing undergeared people fast. Why dot on a scoundrel/op when you can on a sage/sorc? You wouldn't which explains why I haven't played against a dps op/scoundrel since the first day after the surge nerf.

 

What class am I missing here? Sorc/Sage. Yes one class = half.

 

Here this might help.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc

Edited February 27, 2012 by biowareftw

[Adzzy]

Yes it takes 5 sorcerers/sages to instant mes you, that turns into a short stun on dmg (enough to get dots up/proc isntant nukes), then stun you (better have a trinket up). Then have an aoe root (on charge), because full resolve doesn't work against roots.

 

Now forcesprint, refresh dots if needed, spam away till proc. Now add in LOS pole humping. I could drag out a fight vs a marauder/sent on a sage/sorc hybrid spec for a good minute. That is IF they have and use all their cooldowns. If not, they can be beat.

 

Carnage specced marauders? HAHAHAAHAAHAHAAAAHHA. Please just stop now. Noone with half a brain plays that garbage spec and if they do they are so freakin easy to kill it isn't funny.

 

Bad sages/sorc who don't even know their knockback roots on full resolve, and "carnage marauders" that noone even plays outside horrible pve/rp realms where people S key and click abilities.

 

Please just stop. You don't know about your own class. Don't talk about other classes based on your horrible server where people have no idea what they are doing.

 

Sorcerers have 2 unspecced dots, and no decent sorc will use afflicition when fighting someone like a marauder, because all it does is effect the windows of whirlwind and kb root being useful, for very very pitiful damage.

 

Yes, you can extend fights against an annihilation or raged specced marauder for a long time, but you certainly can't while using affliction, and of course the only place this can ever really occur is in ilum unless your team feels like 1 person guarding a civil war node is a good idea.

 

As for carnage specced marauders, it explains you're a solo player, i can't imagine how being able to root someone for 9s whilst having 100% armor pen could have any use in a team game like huttball where ball carriers constantly have full resolve bars and heavy armor. (it figures "we suck at huttball" and "carnage has no use" comes from the same person)

 

We get it, their damage isn't nearly as high, but huttball is about control, not damage, you can win a game with barely 10 kills for your whole team with coordination of tanks, stealthers and support if the other team lacks good control. The map itself is plenty capable of outdpsing any player.

 

Annihilation specced marauders do more damage, but other than the bonus on predation, aren't much use at all and could be replaced by any other dps on a map like that, but the complete opposite occurs on civil war where single target damage is god (welcome to duel spec next patch), and voidstar favours aoe damage as people tend to be clustered and static (which is why sorcs can produce stupid numbers that can't even be remotely matched on the other 2).

 

As for me playing on a bad server, i'm not the one whose server can't give up 1 gcd to dispel someone, pot kettle black right there, and you don't have to be a healer to dispel, all three healing classes can dispel its own cc types without heal speccing.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Adzzy

[GrandMike]

Yup let's name them!

 

Sentinels/Marauders. Oh wait. They have one good pvp spec.

 

Commando/Merc. Uh no.

 

Assassin/shadow. All respecced to tanks after the surge nerf. Hybrid spec was nerfed depsite noone complaining about it.

 

Gunslinger/sniper? Hmm not this one either.

 

Guardians/Jugs? Nope. Tank and focus/rage specs are horrible until very deep in the tree.

 

What class am I missing here? Sorc/Sage. Yes one class = half.

 

Here this might help.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc

 

You know soooooo little

[jizerai]

Too logical. Can't be argued by simpletons that don't even know their knockback roots players during full resolve. Their only response? Learn to play.

 

Our response. Everyone is rerolling this class. Look at any high pop pvp server 10-49 bracket as a "metric". Their response. L2p.

 

All I see is Commandos/Vanguards, all over the place. But I guess The Red Eclipse doesn't count? I guess you'll see what you want to see - me included.

[sylorien]

Obviously they will change / nerf the specs. Will they nerf the 4 CC sorc spec in the near future? Maybe in a couple months? Who knows?

 

It's hard for any of us to tell at this point if Bioware / EA is serious about the future of this game particularly given the number of bugs and lack of progress fixing them.

 

If I were a betting man, I'd say that EA corporate was happy to sell a million copies, and if the group of trained monkeys in the basement produce a patch occasionally, thats ok too.

[GrandMike]

All I see is Commandos/Vanguards, all over the place. But I guess The Red Eclipse doesn't count? I guess you'll see what you want to see - me included.

 

Dont worry, its full of sentinels/marauders and PTs/vanguards with a good dose of standard merc/commandos

 

Guess his server is a bit behind on FOTM classes

Edited February 27, 2012 by GrandMike

[Telaan]

Too logical. Can't be argued by simpletons that don't even know their knockback roots players during full resolve. Their only response? Learn to play.

 

Our response. Everyone is rerolling this class. Look at any high pop pvp server 10-49 bracket as a "metric". Their response. L2p.

 

What's logical? Did you even read the post you quoted. I stopped reading his explanation when he stated tk throw was a 35 meter ability causing him to take 1k damage per tick. Both numbers are horrendously wrong.

 

I started up again at his suggestions and only kept reading because of how hysterical they are.

[DarthRaex]

SI classes (both Sorcerer/Couciler, and Assassin/Sage) are quite overpowered.

 

* Bubble, absorbing seeming north of 4K dmg, replaceable every 20sec. Combined with the other abilities, a 1v1 fight vs a SI/JC requires you to output at least 24K HP of dmg to kill them (minimum 16K hp basic health of the SI/JC, plus two bubbles as their other abilities guarantee the fight will go longer than 20sec). And that figure is probably low by 2-4K HP, as a Battlemaster or Rakatta geared SI/JC will probably have closer to 18-20K HP; *and* this figure assume they won't heal at all during the fight. Further, this is talentable to PBAOE stun for a second when broken.

* Point-Blank AOE knockback, every 20sec. Modifiable with a auto-root after the knockback. Melee is completely neutralized by this, and Operatives/Scoundrels, and some flavors of BH/TR are heavily marginalized by it. Assassins/Sages would be neutralized by it but they have all the SI/JC advantages to counter with.

* Speed. Every thirty seconds. Combined with bubble, hazards are meaningless to SI/JC classes. Worse, speed auto-breaks snare effects; speed is one of their "I'll kill you in a moment" abilities. Any melee worth anything snares any target they engage within the first three seconds. Speed completely ignores snare, allowing the SI/JC to reset the encounter back to max range.

* Lightning/TK attack that auto-snares and is easily talented to be endlessly spamable - a base attack, *all* SI/JCs get this, even the stealth/tank variants in the form of Assassin/Sage.

* Ranged stun - many classes get this.

* Ranged 10sec CC - modifiable by talents to be a 1sec cast, and further modifiable to stun the target for two seconds if it breaks early.

* Ranged slow

* Healing

* DOTs - some of which are insta-cast, and can be talented to heal the SI/JC on crit ticks, which typically means every third tick, at least, will be throwing healing back.

 

Assassin flavors of SI/JC receive several additional stuns. Caster flavors of SI/JC receive AOE.

 

Quite frankly, anyone arguing they're not overpowered is insane, or lying. Period. Their abilities make it impossible for any melee to stay on them to actually do damage. The array of SI/JC abilities *might*, *MIGHT*, make sense if either of two things were true in SWTOR that were true in *OTHER* MMORPGSs that had ranged vs melee battles.

 

Those things were that, typically, melee had higher dps output to counter the time they spent not in melee range (meaning they did more damage when they were in range to make up for the time they spent not dpsing), and that typically ranged classes were squishier and easier to kill than melee classes when applying damage.

 

SI/JC classes are NOT squishier compared to other classes. SWTOR has uniform hitpoint levels across all classes. The difference between a Rakatta geared Tank Juggernaut and a Rakatta geared DPS Sorcerer is less than 4K HP; between DPS variants of both they're almost identical in HP. The tank will have about 20 to 25% more armor mitigation (meaning, for every 100 damage, the tank takes usually 45-50 of it vs the sorcerer taking 70-75 of it). The tank compensates for this by having no more than a third of the damage output of non-tank classes, probably actually more like a *fourth* of the damage output.

 

SWTOR melee also do *NOT* have increased dps. If you go in raids, most people tend to tip their hats to Snipers and Marauders as the best dps to bring, and the marauders only get the nod because of their raid-wide Bloodthirst buff. I know of no raids or guilds begging for dps melee classes to join up.

 

So having removed the 'traditional' MMORPG melee advantage of increased DPS burst and ranged disadvantage of extra squishiness, it makes absolutely no sense for SI/JC to be designed as they've been except that ex-Mythic devs were involved, who have shown in their prior games to favor ranged.

 

 

Let's walk through a theorycraft encounter that closely emulates what's happening thousands of times per day on the servers when a SI/JC fights a melee

 

* DPS Sorcerer and DPS Juggernaut see each other at the same time, range 40m

* Sorc throws Lightning at 35m with their self-buff cooldown, ticking for about 1K per, and autosnaring.

* Leap's range is 30m, so two to three ticks hit before the Jug can leap. Jug down 2K HP.

* Jug lands doing 1K-1.5K from the Leap attack, and if he's spamming gets Smash off for 3K (Rage spec). Sorc triggers PBAOE Knockback. Jug is now 10m away (6m from melee range of 4m) and down 3K HP since Knockback also does damage. We'll assume the Sorc isn't talented for root but that really just makes this whole thing worse. Sorc is down nothing but a popped bubble so far.

* Sorc Slows the Jug and kites back out to 32-33m, taking probably about 4sec tops to do this. He tosses insta-DOT while doing it, since it's instant and takes no time. Jug can throw his saber, which will do about half what the dot will over its duration.

* At this point, I don't have exact math on speed of characters, but countless encounters indicate it's about 10-12 seconds minimum to reclose on the Sorc as he spams lightning. In that 12sec, Sorc spams four full lightning cycles, each for a minimum of 3Kdmg per. Counting the dot (assuming it wasn't refreshed somewhere during the Lightning spam) and the saber throw, Jug is now back in melee range and down 2K (initial) + 1K (knockback) +1K (dot) + 12K (Lightning) 16Kdmg, or about 25% HP remaining. Sorc is down 1K and about 8-10sec until rebubble.

 

See the pattern? Certain variations really don't alter the outcome here at all. If the Jug saves leap for after the knockback, he takes the 12K dmg initially, is knockedback, releaps, and is still down at 25%. If the Jug leaps and chooses to Force Choke, he only delays the knockback without actually seriously threatening the Sorc since Choke will do less than 3K dmg for the three second duration of choke. If the Jug triggers his Saber Ward CD, it turns a 25% HP remaining to something like maybe 35% HP remaining.

 

Further theorycraft variations. Rage Jug, so he has Obliterate, right? 10m Leap. So he takes 3 Lightning cycles, not four. Upon landing, the Sorc can choose to stun, or speed, to break contact again. And we haven't even gotten into the Sorc's self heal. At any point, the Sorc can choose to self-heal, with or without breaking from melee range. Ah, but Jug has interrupt. Right, so the Jug interrupts a heal (12sec cooldown to reinterrupt), costing the Sorc a GCD. The sorc simply casts his OTHER heal while the first one is locked out, and four seconds later can go back to the interrupted heal if he chooses. At the 20sec mark in this encounter, the Sorc rebubbles, and has plenty of time before it drops to get off two or three heals, minimum, if he actually even needs them. And the sorc can choose to Whirlwind at any point and reset the engagment back to max range and get off 3-4 more heals before the CC breaks.

 

The only Sorcs that die to melee are skilled melee beating *dumb* Sorcs. Average players on both side, melee wins only on a freak occurrence.

 

And the above theorycraft is postulated in a barren open field. It doesn't include the obstacles and terrain that exist in warzones. In huttball, most engagements will occur either near a hazard or on a catwalk; meaning the Knockback puts the melee either dead or unable to reengage. The sorc then either goes on with his scoring maneuver or stands on the edge of the catwalk and finishes the melee off, as he choose. In Alderaan/Voidstar, the sorc can use pillars and platform edges to buy time to heal and maneuver while the melee moves around the obstacles to reengage.

 

It's ridiculous, and insulting. SI/JC are extremely overpowered.

 

Suggested changes to balance SI/JC:

 

* Bubble either needs to be AT LEAST halved in absorb amount, or the rebubble period should be AT LEAST doubled.

* Speed needs to be AT LEAST one minute (not 30 sec) cooldown, and should not auto-break snare. Allow speed to apply its movement increase rate, but calculated from the snared base, not the unsnared base (as it does now)

* PBAOE Knockback needs to be AT LEAST one minute cooldown, and should not be allowed to auto-root.

* Lightning's auto-snare needs to be flatly removed, period. If snare remains, cost to cast should be at least tripled, OR remove talents that enable it to be endlessly spammable.

* Healing should be removed to be a Sorcerer/Councilor item only (no Assassins/Sages). Heals should be locked out for ten seconds following the cast of any offensive spell other than a dot.

* Assassin/Sage triggerable ability that renders them immune to CC should break instantly if speed is active or triggered. Speed + Bubble + at-will CC Immune allows Assassins/Sages to score effortlessly from beyond the last, even next to last, huttball hazard.

 

I PVP alot, and I'm also a member of a server-first raid guild. Some of these changes will impact our raids. Too-bad; we'll find ways around bubbles that absorb half as much, around dps sorcerers that can't just frantically tap their lightning key over and over in a raid, etc...

 

Finally, should no changes be made, I'll wait. It's fine. Even the ex-Mythic devs will have to admit reality when the devs deliver on the ranked Warzones they're promising, and all the winning teams are 6+ SI/JC.

 

I promise you, in a ranked/ladder WZ situation, you'll *never* see an all SW/JK team anywhere near the top. You'll see only an *incredibly* few number of 8 massively skilled players fielding a 8 BH/TR or 8 IA/SM teams near the top. You'll see *LOTS* of SI/JC teams dominating at the top. If that doesn't illustrate the problems, then there's no hope and everyone should reroll the Flavor Of The Game class, because it'll sure as heck not be a FOTM at that point.

 

SI/JC flames will recommence at this point in the thread. Enjoy.

 

 

 

Cause apparently assassins and sages are the mirror classes of eachother.....

 

Last time i checked it was Sorcerer/Sage and Assassin/Shadow.......

 

So some of your points become null and void from this simple mistake you have made

 

Also the AOE knockback does have a cooldown already its not spammable

 

Vengeance Juggs when they charge are immune to knockbacks so they in theory wouldnt have as much trouble keeping the distance closed, Carnage Marauders can root with their Deadly Throw which also reduces healing done to said target by 20%, Annilation Marauders who slow your speed with there bleed effect, and also have another movement reducing ability to use along side the dots effect, so yet again melee should keep distance.

 

Also with resolve you can not chain CC's which with a Sorcerer we have 2, one instant another with a cast time and instant IF and only IF specced for it to be instant, ill agree that the root not being affected by resolve is OP and I play a Sorcerer.

 

And if a sorcerer is specced in the way youve described your fight, then his heals arent that great and yes he does have two to use, and if he did whirlwind said target to run away and heal, that target is also healed the duration of whirlwind, sorcerers do not automatically go around facerolling everyone, and you seemed to have fought very different specced sorcerers in the first place and described a mix of them in your fight.

[TheronFett]

Quite frankly, anyone arguing they're not overpowered is insane, or lying. Period.

 

Pretty much sums it up.

[GrandMike]

Pretty much sums it up.

 

Anyone saying this just wants free kills (if you are not already one of the classes that already has free kill, if you are you just want them to be nerfed before your FOTM class is nerfed because you know youll get nerfed).

Edited February 27, 2012 by GrandMike

[Enosh_]

As for carnage specced marauders, it explains you're a solo player, i can't imagine how being able to root someone for 9s whilst having 100% armor pen could have any use in a team game like huttball where ball carriers constantly have full resolve bars and heavy armor. (it figures "we suck at huttball" and "carnage has no use" comes from the same person).

where the hell are pulling a 9s root from?

You know soooooo little

what's wrong with his post?

[McGringo]

Cause apparently assassins and sages are the mirror classes of eachother.....

 

Last time i checked it was Sorcerer/Sage and Assassin/Shadow.......

 

So some of your points become null and void from this simple mistake you have made

 

Also the AOE knockback does have a cooldown already its not spammable

 

Vengeance Juggs when they charge are immune to knockbacks so they in theory wouldnt have as much trouble keeping the distance closed, Carnage Marauders can root with their Deadly Throw which also reduces healing done to said target by 20%, Annilation Marauders who slow your speed with there bleed effect, and also have another movement reducing ability to use along side the dots effect, so yet again melee should keep distance.

 

Also with resolve you can not chain CC's which with a Sorcerer we have 2, one instant another with a cast time and instant IF and only IF specced for it to be instant, ill agree that the root not being affected by resolve is OP and I play a Sorcerer.

 

And if a sorcerer is specced in the way youve described your fight, then his heals arent that great and yes he does have two to use, and if he did whirlwind said target to run away and heal, that target is also healed the duration of whirlwind, sorcerers do not automatically go around facerolling everyone, and you seemed to have fought very different specced sorcerers in the first place and described a mix of them in your fight.

 

Why are you even bothering replying to his post? It's full of mistakes on so many points it's not even funny. There should be a Hall of Fame for posts such as his. It's just another case of a clueless person pretending to be a knowlegeable one and an expert. Nothing new on these forums. It seems that here is the place where the absolute bad of the bad come to meet and post nonsensical crap. Hell even Taugrim stated in one of his shows that he was appalled by the number of misinformed, clueless folk on these boards. The vocal minority who can't tell their left from right foot but think they are good at game design/class balancing. I'm sure one would swoop and flash his internet credentials. And we all know swooping....is baaad.

Edited February 27, 2012 by McGringo