Ziegler Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 So here is the scenario. Belsavis World Boss is up. Republic guild is trying to take him down. A group of Imperials attack the repubs.....repeatedly til they abandon the boss. Imperials get warnings for griefing. I could have sworn this game said it had open world PVP....and I also could have sworn I chose to play on a PVP server. So I would like the devs to clarify this. And a little bit of rant here. Bioware, you have never been big on the whole PVP thing, so much so that you had to co-opt developers from Warhammer to do it for you. The above example only shows your lack of knowledge about PVP. A couple of things to enlighten you. First, open world pvp in the gaming community means.....pvp anywhere, anytime. On a PVP server, a common practice is denying the opposing faction areas, entrances, bosses....you know...it's almost like....oh I dont know....a WAR...like STAR WARS!!!! I can deal with bugs, I can deal with slow patches and fixes. (you have been good with patches)...I can deal with alot of things. But one thing I cant stand is a mommy game company babysitting a PVP server. So I would like some clarification. Is it ok on a PVP server to actually attack the opposing faction in an organized fashion to deny them areas, quest bosses, or anything else? Can my guild decide to wage war on Belsavis and attempt to deny to the whole world to the republic? If I kill someone and they come back to the area, am I allowed to keep killing them til they give up? If not, what's the magic number before I am griefing? One pissed off PVP'er. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestunhi Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Sounds like utter BS to me. Spawn camping - I can see this being griefing regardless of whether it's a pvp server as the player has the option of just respawning (and being killed immediately) or logging off. However, people choosing to go to a boss character which is being camped by enemies? No. That is not griefing by any definition of the word which I know of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oteefo Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 "Open world" PvP is one thing.......but denying another group of players access to content is another.... I would suspect there is a balance they are working here.... Did your group proceed to slay the world boss? ....or were you just killing off the republic players so they could not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redmarx Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 This cannot be true. It should be perfectly fine to kill republic and deny them that boss. That is what a PVP server is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestunhi Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Here's the harassment part of the game rules: Harassment Policy Our goal is to build a strong community that offers a comfortable atmosphere for all of our players. This means seeing that players have the ability to combat antisocial behavior Harassment consists of misuse and/or abuse of game mechanics and verbal harassment with the intention of distressing and offending other players. Game mechanics allow players to interact with the world and each other. For example, the ability to block a doorway is a game mechanic. Use of game mechanics like these is by no means considered harassment in and of itself. The key to determining whether the mechanic is being misused or abused is to determine "intent." Reported incidents are not considered harassment until it is determined by the SWTOR CS that it was done to intentionally to cause distress or to offend other players. Harassment is also any behavior that is incessant, inescapable, derogatory and directed specifically at you or your group. Before reporting, a genuine attempt to alleviate the situation should be made by leaving the area or the offending player, or asking them politely to stop. If a sincere attempt has been made to solve the problem and the offending player persists in the behavior, it should be reported. Behavior that is always considered harassment includes derogatory and/or hateful comments that are sexual, racist, religious, or related to gender or creed. A judgment of valid harassment can result in penalties placed on the harassing party up to and including immediate account closure, based on the severity of harassment and the player's past account history. Player versus Player (“PvP”) activities, where available, are not exempt from this policy. http://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/rulesofconduct As far as I can see none of the above rules have been broken based on the info in the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leandrid Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 "Open world" PvP is one thing.......but denying another group of players access to content is another.... I would suspect there is a balance they are working here.... Did your group proceed to slay the world boss? ....or were you just killing off the republic players so they could not? If what the OP wrote here really happened, it is the most ridiculous thing I ever saw in an online pvp game. Denying a group of players access to content shouldn't be allowed? Hello, anyone at home? If you don't want to participate in open world pvp, then for god's sake choose a pve server already! It doesn't matter if his group wanted to kill the boss themselves or not. It should be ok if all they wanted was to kick some rep *** for a couple of hours. PvP in these games today is in the gutter, didn't realize until now how ****** it became. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziegler Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 "Open world" PvP is one thing.......but denying another group of players access to content is another.... I would suspect there is a balance they are working here.... Did your group proceed to slay the world boss? ....or were you just killing off the republic players so they could not? The whole story, they attacked us first. We did the PVP thing and made a call out on the TS server.... We rolled in and camped the boss, didnt take it down, but protected it instead. Tag the boss as they get there and then wipe them. Actually thought this was cool and enjoyed the PVP. After a bit, most of us left but some stay around harassing the repubs by attacking them while they engaged the boss and such. Perhaps on a PVE server that would be wrong. But on a PVP server, PVP happens, you have to plan for the opposing faction and IMHO be ready to abandon running a world boss or cancel a RAID because the entrance is blocked by the opposing faction. BW tends to be really carebearish though, so I could see them saying this is harassment or griefing. If that is the case, it's their game and I wont complain about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThalantyrDSL Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Who did you receive a warning from Ziegler?Did Bioware actually come on and tell you off for PvP'ing? If so, who was it? You're always going to get people on PvP servers that think that being denied content is against the rules. They're just soft-PvP'ers, or new-school PvP'ers. It's not like it used to be and it will never be again. Open-PvP originally worked so well because factions had to cross-paths in certain areas which on itself created insanely good fun while PvE'ing. You had to look over your shoulder before pulling a mob because that mob could be the difference between whether you win the incoming stealther and PvP fight or not. I completely agree that PvP is about zone control, PvE control, etc. Denying people is where the fun comes from and being denied is also fun because you have to think smarter than the other players. If this was just some Republic, or Empire, having a cry in /say or /shout, forget it, it happens all the time. SWTOR is NOT an open-PvP game and never will be. The sooner you accept that the more enjoyable it will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsanists Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) If the story of the OP is true then yea thats terrible of BW... seriously, A guy could interupt my fight 10 times and I wouldnt even consider reporting him let alone actually giving the warning. Open world PVP is there to create randomness and 'mini games' there's no problem interupting other peoples plans.. that is the way communities and rivalries get formed SOMETHING THIS GAME NEEDS My guildies and I were duelling and some IA's waited for us to almost die then jumped us.. we just laughed and thought that was a good idea from them... Edited February 18, 2012 by Arsanists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestunhi Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 some stay around harassing the repubs by attacking them while they engaged the boss and such. This does not help your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokcheK Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I have to agree that this is crap. When you join an open pvp server, you expect it to be more hardcore, because its pvp anywhere any time. The people who roll on these servers understand this, and in fact desire it, because every accomplishment is that much sweeter given the added difficulty. There are plenty of safe areas for people to hide in for times when they dont want to pvp. If Bioware wants to make these encounters easier for the mentally challenged who roll on pvp servers, but dont want pvp, then they can put these bosses within no pvp areas. This appears to me to be working as intended. I am Rep btw and vastly out numbered on my server. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyderQuanTy Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Hay I'm a new player and my first character is lvl34 and have o real guild or group I play on a pvp severer and whatyou did is what I though would happen and a group of lvl 50 just kept killing me I would have gon the the fleet and screamed as loud and long lfg need entire fleet large group of sith are camped out on blaa blaa... and hopefully we could have statred a major open world pvp battle it could be awsome keep it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helig Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 PvP on a PvP server? Quick, call the police! On a more serious note, it's ridiculous. Outside corpse\spawn-camping, exploiting mechanics or farming lowbies, it's regular PvP on a PvP server. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestunhi Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 PvP on a PvP server? Quick, call the police! On a more serious note, it's ridiculous. Outside corpse\spawn-camping, exploiting mechanics or farming lowbies, it's regular PvP on a PvP server. FYI spawn camping is inescapable (until we can choose where to spawn) so that is clear harassment according to the policy that we all agreed to when we started playing. "exploiting mechanics" is exploiting (presumably) which will also be against the rules. Farming lowbies however I see no problem with (game-rule wise, not morally). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEBelkas Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 OP, sounds like an awesome world boss crash to me. For me, it becomes griefing when the person being griefed is not able to rez at medcenter and quick travel to safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestunhi Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 OP, sounds like an awesome world boss crash to me. For me, it becomes griefing when the person being griefed is not able to rez at medcenter and quick travel to safety. This. If it's not inescapable then how are you being harassed? What you are actually doing is making a choice to go back and try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJMTL Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 What a crock of ****... Once again, the legitimacy of this game's PvP is trampled upon. SWTOR: A daycare for casuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redmarx Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 If that is what happened then Bioware should apologise to those empire players. They engaged in PVP on a PVP server. There is no way that should be against the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cragen Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Best PvP I ever had in World of Warcraft was 3+ hours of fighting over Kazzak against 2 other Alliance guilds. It included stuff like 40 people ressing at the same time to AoE bomb them to death right before they pulled. It ended up with using having a absolute laugh over it on IRC with the guilds we fought later on because it was just a really fun night of great world pvp that you can not possible try and replicate in something like Ilum. If you get a warning for "griefing" for actively engaging in world pvp then really Bioware just should disable the ability to attack players of the opposite faction and relaunch the game as a single player only game with multiplayer warzones and dungeon crawling. The game already feels completely dead because you hardly see players from the opposite faction outside of warzones and Ilum. Might as well just take it one step further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziegler Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 SWTOR is NOT an open-PvP game and never will be. The sooner you accept that the more enjoyable it will be. heh....if you look at my registration number here on the forums, I am number 681. I recall the original dev post of this game would have open world pvp and ranted about it at that time.....their definition of open world pvp is that they have a world (Ilum) that has open pvp..... And BW specifically designed the world to keep the factions apart from each other mostly, which points to thier lack of understanding about PVP or that it is completely secondary to the game. Yeah...not exactly the definition of any PVP gamers I have played with since I colored my own D20 with a wax crayon. I did not get a warning, I left early, and a couple of guildies were talking about getting a warning for it. They stuck around after most of us left, and were using the guerilla tactics of tagging the boss or waiting for them to engage then attacking flanks and such. So, that being said, I will gladly admit I wasnt there for the end and it is possible they talked trash or something and I am not getting the whole story on it. Partly the reason for this thread, so I can go back and say no guys...here's the thread on the forums, if you get warned on it again, point to this. I already told them to reply back to the warning with the Eula quoted for the CSR to read over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee-Jay Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 This cannot be true. It should be perfectly fine to kill republic and deny them that boss. That is what a PVP server is. This is true, and honestly I've had the exact same thing happen to me with no consequences. Republic was gathering a random group to take down the world boss. Meanwhile some Imperial questing group caught wind of it and summoned their buddies. They ganked the **** out of the random group, farming them for hours. Group fought back as well as they could but obviously there was no chance of anyone killing the boss at that point. People went home and moved on. Never heard of anyone writing a ticket or even complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestunhi Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) Then maybe they didn't complain, or maybe they did and a different CSR got the ticket (who then rejected it as pvping on a pvp server)? Edited February 18, 2012 by Jestunhi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kon_man Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I imagine the ticket read something like. "Bioware please herp us, I wants new shinnes and I can't get them because I get attacked by mean sith players. They use sabers and things. This makes my butt hurt. Please give shinnes." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoBones Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I sure hope BW is not really going to prevent PvP on a PvP server. This sounds like good fun to me and I honestly wish there was more of this in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irenicus_Jon Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Here's the harassment part of the game rules: Harassment consists of misuse and/or abuse of game mechanics and verbal harassment with the intention of distressing and offending other players. Game mechanics allow players to interact with the world and each other. For example, the ability to block a doorway is a game mechanic. Use of game mechanics like these is by no means considered harassment in and of itself. The key to determining whether the mechanic is being misused or abused is to determine "intent." Reported incidents are not considered harassment until it is determined by the SWTOR CS that it was done to intentionally to cause distress or to offend other players. That point could be argued in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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